Discuss Matthew 24 Page 5

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

Why would the 12 be hated? Because they preached Christ. Jesus knew ahead of time what their fate would be. They would be persecuted, tortured, and except for Judas who killed himself, they would die horrible deaths. They would suffer martyrdom. Did they endure to the end? Yes, they never wavered in their faith, all the way to their death. They endured to the end of their lives, and it would be safe to believe they were saved. But Jesus was not speaking to the church telling them they must endure the 7-year tribulation period, and if they endured, they would be saved.



This is the same thing we see in Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13. We have to take these verses in context of who Jesus is actually speaking to. He wasn't speaking to the church. The church was not in existence yet. In Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark Chapter 13, Jesus is speaking to the Jews (Jewish believers).

I am looking at the other verses you gave. The first being 2 Timothy 2:11-12. That needs to be taken along with Verses 7-14 where Paul is giving Timothy instruction for service. Paul is confined, and in Verse 9, he says he suffers trouble (because of the gospel). He suffered in prison, was put in chains, and beaten. But in 2 Timothy 2:10, Paul says, "therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes.

The word endure here is HUPOMENO which means to remain under. Paul says I remain under all of my difficult circumstances because I can be bound, but the gospel can't. Therefore, I endure all these things. He says I preach the gospel wherever I am enduring the hardships, so that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul endured through tribulation/trials.

Hi Jimbob,

Sorry for the late reply. I have not had a chance to be on here for a couple days. I just read your address to myself and brother Chris. This might be a little long, so I apologize ahead of time. I will begin this as (Part 1):

I had previously asked you if you were referring to the word HUPOMENO because #5278 in the Strong's Concordance is the word HUPOMENO. However, both the Textus Receptus and the Greek Interlinear use show it as HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. Those words are closely related but when properly used, they convey different meanings. I don't know why Strong's says HUPONEO when the Greek text actually uses HUPOMEINAS. If you own a Greek Interlinear Bible, you will see the correct usage.

HUPOMEINAS is used in three places in the NT ( Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13). It is #5278 in the Strong's Concordance, but the word is HUPOMEINAS, not what's listed in the Strong's. This word (HUPOMEINAS) describes a person who is saved. A saved person (will) endure to the end. Some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, they will be saved. They say that you have to endure to the end of the tribulation. But that is not the proper context of these scriptures.



In Matthew 10:22, Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is the training of the 12 which is outlined for us in Verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation. In Verse 22, Jesus says, "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He's speaking to the 12.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION

What is it?

When is it?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to THIS TIME (of the great tribulation), no, nor shall ever be (but this one time).

Matthew 24:22 And except those days (of the great tribulation) BE SHORTENED; there should no flesh be SAVED; but for the elects sake those days (of the great tribulation) SHALL BE SHORTENED.

According to God's word NO FLESH can BE SAVED until after the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Are you saved NOW?

Yes, you were saved by the RESURRECTION.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ ....

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, our old man is crucified with him .....

Romans 6:5 ...we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.....

Colossians 3:1 If ye be then risen with Christ .......

Luke 20:36 ...being the children of the resurrection .....

The wrath of God; that GREAT TRIBULATION, was poured out on Christ, the Great tribulation was SHORTENED to 3 days, for the elects sake.

God bless you.

Tribulation: Declaration vs Preaching the Gospel today.

In today's dispensation (if you don't mind me using this time frame as a proponent of that terminology in the church age at present) we preach on the death; burial and resurrection of Christ. We therefore are "blessed" as Christ referred to Thomas of those who have believed and not seen ( John 20:29). There is a general call to the crowd and to those chosen (such as the more intimate discussions between Christ and His Disciples into the meanings of parables; for instance and other matters).

In the Tribulation as noted in my last post by Revelation 6 there is no need to explain these things; only a declaration to the world of judgments already transpiring and to come; a sort of "signs and wonders" prophetic battle between the side of God's angels and the demons before Christ's final battle settles the score once and for all. I proposed that the Rapture is to wake up the Jewish nation; and specifically activation of the 144,000 for just such a purpose to fulfill the original commission to reach all the cities of Israel which cannot happen until that time ( Matthew 10:23). It is odd that until the time of Christ's initial stages to take back Jerusalem ( Zech. 12:12 but also apparently alluded to on a larger scale in Matthew 24:30) that the Jews will not come to full realization of who Christ is. They at least are deluded until the midpoint of the Tribulation as to the fact Antichrist is not their Messiah and since the world at large knows His identity at the sixth seal it may be that they don't realize they have a need for Him to be their personal Savior but they may start understanding His Lordship over the earth. Thus; I would look at the Tribulation temple to be one that isn't wrong as to the ceremonial aspects; since Antichrist himself desecrates it. Psalm 50:8 seems to show this; albeit many other verses show God's disdain at such things. Those who don't know God will worship the Beast and die.

Godhead Father = the soul. Jesus= the Body Holy Spirit = he Spirit. 3 in 0ne.

Hi again Jimbob, I just noticed your comment addressing Jesse & myself, & in particular to your references, Mark 13:13 & Matthew 24:13.

Both Jesse & I agreed with you that Strongs #5278 for 'endure' is correct. And that word is 'hupomeno'. However, the word 'endure' is not just a word on its own, but is qualified by the words, "that shall endure". Here, Jesse would give a better explanation of Greek grammar, but the word 'hupomeno' is no longer just an 'endurance' (which it certainly is), but in those verses, it changes to 'hypomeinas', to give the intended meaning by the writer. So, what you should be reading in the verses, is not just 'endurance to the end', but 'having endured to the end'; and this now gives our reading a different perspective. Where a cursory reading would imply 'one can only be saved if he endures to the end', a proper reading would assert the 'one who is saved will endure to the end'.

Leaving those verses aside & just thinking of an English example to give you (which is unrelated to the verses); if I said to you, as passenger in my car, 'a car is coming right behind me', or expressed it this way, 'a car is right behind me', I'm sure you would pick up on the nuance, exactly where the other car is positioned, apart from the look on my face. Even though 'coming' is understood as to where the car is approximately located, how I express its correct position helps you understand if we are in imminent danger of being hit.

Re: 1 Peter 1:7. Peter is writing to the strangers (Christian sojourners (of the diaspora) in Asia Minor), who were going through 'manifold temptations' for their faith - faithfully living in a pagan & hostile society; as also in 1 Peter 3:14-17. Also, the coming trials ( 1 Peter 4:12-19) upon them & Christians throughout the world generally. Their faith was already on test, not just prior to Christ's coming, but having come through their present & future trials, their victory would be to their credit & Christ's recognition. GBU.

Thanks brother Jesse. In your quoting me: "As for HUPOMENO possibly implying that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end", I understand that Matthew 24:13 is sometimes taken by a few to mean that salvation cannot be realized now but only at the final judgement (which takes into account that endurance/perseverance must be worked at/pursued so as to attain eternal life). But the Greek rendering, as you've shown, has a different meaning, and this is important to any who believe that our salvation isn't secure until a future time. But the Word tells us that we are secure NOW & this fact, by the Holy Spirit's witness, assures us that "He will keep us from falling & present us faultless before the presence of his glory...", i.e. the Spirit working in us ensures our endurance till the end.

So, I see that using Hupomeno or Hupomeinas does make a difference - and an important one at that. Thanks again & every blessing.

(Part 2):

Jesus Himself teaches this in Matthew 24:13 when He says, "But the one who has endured unto the end, this one will be saved." Endurance is a major characteristic being developed in each believer through the maturation process. It is only through endurance that the gospel is preached, and it is only through the development of endurance that a believer is able to hold steady through the tribulations and hardships of life to reach the end when all believers will reign with Christ. Paul, in encouraging the Thessalonians concerning the patient waiting for the coming of Christ, writes in 2 Thessalonians 3:5, "Now may the Lord guide your hearts into the love of God, and into the endurance of Christ." Enduring circumstances is a fundamental characteristic of the person who is saved.

Chapter 21 of Luke presents the hardships that will come upon those who belong to Christ in the last days. In our study text, Luke 21:19, Jesus commands His followers to gain their souls through the endurance of these hardships. This statement is parallel to one found in Matthew 24:13, "But the one having endured unto the end shall be saved." Both of these gospel writers present the teaching of Jesus as saying that the one who belongs to Christ will endure unto the end. Patient endurance, according to Jesus, is a characteristic of the one who is saved; it is not the work ethic of the believer.

Blessings to you in Christ!

Brother Chris,

Thank you for the additional clarification. I think we're on the same page here. If we take Matthew 24:13 from the English text, it looks like it is a challenge for us to endure. But the Greek text a different understanding. It gives the proof of those who are saved. They will endure.

Matthew 24:13 (KJV) "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Matthew 24:13 (TR) "HO DE HUPOMEINAS" translated the one having endured.

And yes, you are correct. The Textus Receptus has the word HUPOMEINAS. This is one who remains under or one who endures. It is a form of the word HUPOMENO which is made up of the preposition HUPO meaning under, and MENO which means to remain. Also, MENO (Remain/Abide/Stay) by itself denotes permanency. Once a person has experienced a spiritual birth by receiving Christ, that person is then abiding and remaining in the Lord because of the Spirit of God abiding in him. This position, or condition, can never change, because the Spirit of God forever lives within the spirits of His people. This also would apply here. We endure to the end because we have Gods Spirit permanently abiding in us.

But both words (HUPOMENO/HUPOMEINAS) are very close. As for HUPOMENO possibly implying that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end, I have never looked at that word that way. But I do see how one might come to that conclusion.

You mention the reformers, which I think is a great example of enduring to the end. This also proved their salvation. They could only endure because of the indwelling of Gods Spirit.

I am running out of space so I will need to send a part 2.

That was enlightening brother Jesse & many thanks for that clarification. I did look up Matthew 24:13 in Strong's Concordance & noted that if 'hupomeno' was the word used, then 'to wait, stay behind, endure' would be accurate. But in context & in how the Greek is grammatically expressed, then 'hypomeinas', (from 'hupomeno'), is the word used & implied, which of course as you wrote is, 'having endured' (or, 'the one who has endured').

And this 'difference' might appear to be minor to most unless one understands its ramifications. The former (hupomeno) implies that salvation cannot be guaranteed now unless the Christian works hard at it to maintain his endurance & thus receiving salvation at the end; whereas the latter (hypomeinas) shows that the Christian who has received salvation will/must endure to the end - no exceptions, no allowances made. That any turning back from God's Promises, denial of Christ or the faith, even succumbing to threats to life or family, only shows that a mighty spiritual change & the ministering Holy Spirit within has never been evident in the person's life.

I think that this would be an extremely sad scenario, when one's life is placed ahead of the Lord's Love & Mercy - when self-preservation is counted more important than self-sacrifice for the Love of God. And so we see many examples of Matthew 24:13, both today & especially of yesteryear, of the reformers who withstood the onslaught of popery against them & went to the stake, willingly accepting the fagots lit about them, remaining resolute in faith & calling on God for strength. These have endured because of the Spirit's enabling within & not on human resolve & strength for victory, which only guarantees failure - for some have denied their Lord. Their joyful deaths proved their salvation & outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Reading through Matthew Chapter 24, and Matthew 24:13 says "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Our English Bible makes it sound like a challenge for us to endure unto the end, like we need to do whatever it takes to endure.



But the literal translation from the Greek is, "but the one who has endured," not the one who will, but the one who has endured unto the end, this one will be saved.



In the Greek text, this is an Aorist Participle, which shows the proof of those who are saved, and it matches the rest of the teachings in the New Testament.



The person who is saved WILL endure to the end. So we have the proof, and secondly, the promise of salvation. Salvation is a promise. We are saved now. And when all this is over, the ones who will be saved are the ones who have endured unto the end.

Hammer63, you explained that perfectly. "For that day shall not come..." What day? "Our gathering together unto him". Until what? Until there is a falling away and the anti christ is revealed, and that is during the Great Tribulation. Jesus returns and gathers us together unto him after that.

I understand why some people might be afraid to go through this Tribulation, they have family, children, etc., but not preparing for it is dangerous, because deception seems to be what is warned about the most, not the beheadings. Jesus even said in Matthew 24:

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

True, Don, true. We are to stay watchful, be prepared as the virgins with oil in their lamps, increase in faith and endure in faithfulness until the end, whether that be natural death, martyrdom, or being alive when Jesus does return. We are to be prayerful, diligent in our service for the Lord for the sake of others, live exemplary lives before others for the glory of God and to reflect the character of Jesus in our godly living.

Our calling is to be representatives of our Lord in this world with a willingness to suffer, as He suffered so greatly for us, taking the wrath of God for our sin upon Himself on the cross. Our sufferings are light in comparison to what He endured. But none the same, they will try our faith and cause us pain and troubles. The glory that lies ahead for us is beyond what we can imagine. So we keep our eye on the prize of the upward calling of Christ; to the inheritance kept for us in heaven; to the full redemption of our body, soul, and spirit; to hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." And ultimately, to see our Savior face to face in all of His glory!

The Holy Trinity is in reference at Matt. 24:36. As to the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus, he clearly says the one and only person who knows the exact time of fulfillment of these things is "my Father only." The three Persons of the Holy Trinity in Biblical order are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We must not ignore the word "only" in this verse. Modern preachers and teachers of doctrinal prophecy should give this serious thought. Neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit Himself know this Divine secret. We may observe the times and seasons, but we must be extremely careful in date setting, or seasonal dogmatism. Jesus' point in these verses is preparation, not self-seeking pragmatism. Anytime our teaching goes beyond the Divine offices of the Son and Spirit, we are into self aggrandizement, not sound doctrine.

I believe it means they will literally pass away. 2 Peter 3:6-7, the first time the earth perished it was by water, but the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3:10 says it again, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." But...we'll have a new heaven and a new earth, undefiled.

Hiya Leska....I think that the new heaven and new earth is just symbolic language of that New heart and New spirit that God wants to give us....The gift of the H.G....In Isaiah 66:22..It says as the new heaven and the new earth shall remain so shall thy seed and name remain b/f me....Which is the Seed of the Sower that will result in Christ being formed in us....Which is the H.G. his Name sake....As Jesus said the kingdom of God is gonna be with in you...And David said beautiful for situation the joy of the whole world....Its beautiful for situation simply b/c its gonna be situated in our hearts and Minds....With in us as Jesus said

.......But i don't think we are gonna see a literal New earth...or New Heaven....There is absolutely nothin wrong with this BEAUTIFUL earth or heaven....Its only mankinds hearts and minds that needs to be replaced....Infact in Rev. 11:15...The Kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he will reign for ever and ever....And He says he wd destroy them that destroy the earth....I think that New Earth and New Heaven is just the result of the new birth of that incorruptible seed etc...The living Word....When Peter said no more seas i think that is no more seas of humanity that have not been washed in the blood of the lamb....I will stain all my raiment.....With the blood of that 2 nd Adam....Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...ok Gbu

LESKA,

I think the answer can be found in Revelation 21:1.

in matthew chapter 24 it says heaven and earth shall pass away? what does this mean.

(Part 2):

GiGi,

Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." There are churches out there that say that Jesus would have come by now had the church been doing its job, because once the whole world is reached for Christ, then He is going to come. I've heard people actually say this.

But during the tribulation, there will not be a need for the church to be out spreading the gospel message. If I remember correctly, I believe in one of your posts you had mentioned to someone that if the church is gone during the tribulation, how are people going to be reached with the gospel message? Those were not your exact words but something of that sort.

Well, in the book of Revelation, it tells us how the world is going to be reached. It tells us that there will be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, that are sealed by God so that they cannot be killed. No one can harm them. They are Jewish believers, and I believe that they will be evangelists during the tribulation period, 144,000 of them.

Secondly, there will be an angel flying in mid-heaven, according to Revelation Chapter 14:6-7. It says that there will be an angel flying in mid-heaven for 3 years. And Revelation 14:6 tells us that he reaches every single person on the earth with the gospel, everybody!

And then in Revelation 11:3-13, there are two witnesses that are witnessing in the streets of Jerusalem, and the whole world sees them. Our technology today makes that possible. So, everyone will be reached before His second coming. God Himself will fulfill that promise.

Lord willing, I will finish this up with one more post, I promise!

(Part-1):

Hello Jimbob,

To answer your first question, I have gone back and read through Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with Verse 1. The first thing I am looking for is who Jesus is speaking to. It tells us in Verse 1 that Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple grounds when the disciples (Peter, James, John, & Andrew) came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. Jesus gives them the prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD.

In Verse 3, these same four disciples probed Jesus with three questions: When shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Now from this point in Verse 3 on to the end of Chapter 24, Jesus gives these four disciples the answers to their three questions. I am trying to find reference to the church with what Jesus is saying, mainly in response to your question on who the ones taken are referring to, but I just cannot see this as being the church.



Jesus begins answering their three questions in Verse 4. He begins by talking about the pains of birth ( Matthew 24:4-14), and then Matthew 24:15 is the pivotal point. Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in Daniel ( Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11). And then we see the perils of tribulation ( Matthew 24:16-28). And the finally, the promise of Jesus' coming in Matthew 24:29-31.

As you probably already have figured out by now, I believe the church is gone already, so no, I do not see Matthew 24:40-41 talking about church members being taken, nor do I see those two verses referring to the rapture of the church. I believe the ones taken are taken into judgment. They are taken to fight against Christ when He returns at His second coming. My reason for believing this comes from Joel 3:1-2, and Zechariah 14:2. From what I see, it is God who gathers these people (the ones taken) into the Valley of Megiddo to face judgement.

Brother Spencer,

Thank you for sharing this piece of scripture from Matthew Chapter 24. This section ( Matthew 24:37-41) gives us the preconditions to the coming of Christ.

You may already know this, but after God shut the door on the ark, how long was it until it started raining? One week. That is prophecy!

After the door was shut, they still didn't know it. That is why it says they didn't know it until the flood came. The flood came and took them all away. It was life as usual until it came, and it was sudden, and it was quick, and it was unexpected. Matthew 24:39 tells us that it will be the same prior to Christ's second coming.

In Matthew 24:40-41, with the one taken and the other left, there are different views about two in the field, one is taken, one is left. Where does the one go that is taken? We know where the one that is left is, but what about the one that is taken?

Some say it's taken into judgment (which is what I think you and I both believe) and some say it's for salvation, a person is taken saved. I have heard others say it's one of these gatherings, the Lord gathering His people from the four corners of the earth.

But in Luke's account ( Luke 17:37), it tells us that they are taken into judgment. They are drawn into the Valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon.



I say this because as I go through Revelation, I see that God is the one that draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo to fight against Him when He comes.

In Luke 17:37, when the disciples asked Jesus where the one taken would be, because they said "Where, Lord?"

Jesus says "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the vultures be gathered together. He is talking about that day when people are going to gather together in the Valley outside of Jerusalem to fight against Christ at His coming. Remember the birds are going to be called in to feed on their carcasses. These people (the one taken) have been drawn out into the battle.

God bless!

Hi Jimbob.

I disagree I used Matthew 24:37-39 as my primary verse because Jesus referred it. Those taken away in the flood was taken away for Judgment.

Here's the strongs in that verse.

: A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice) keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with bear (up) carry lift up loose make to doubt put away remove take (away up.

Here's how it reads.

It's easy to see who is taken.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood THEY WERE EATING AND DRINKING, MARRYING AND GIVING IN MARRIAGE, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

( They were carrying on like God didn't exist. When God closed the door it was to late for them)

AND KNEW NOT UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME, AND TOOK THEM .."ALL".. AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Who's the ALL taken away by the flood?

Noah and his family was in the ark

and remained on the earth.

Vs) 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

( The one left will enter into the Kingdom. )

GB

Hi Jimbob.

Matthew 24:37-42.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

How do you view this section of scripture? Rapture? Who's taken away? The righteous?

I say it's not a Rapture verse at all I believe it's judgment at the end of the age. And the elect here is Israel. Not the Church as some say.

Those taken away in the flood was those outside the ark.

We are told to watch and be ready.

Why?

So we can escape?

Escape what?

The Lords wrath right?

If we're not appointed to wrath there must be a way of escape.

So when do we escape? Pre-trib or Post?

So far either works, right?

The issue with the Post-trib view at this point is that it's not eminent. We know that there's seven years that has to go by.

I say eminent means he can come now.

And we escape because we're not appointed to wrath.

We're Children of the Light.

1 Peter 2:8.

We've been made ready by the blood of Christ.

God bless.

Thank you David0920. I have read some of these areas you've touched on in your recent posts elsewhere, and since I find that I simply cannot acquiesce to what you've written, I've avoided responding. And here too, you've given examples of your understanding of 'the Churches, 1 Peter 4:17, Matthew 24:16', to which I don't agree.

I don't believe the reference to 'Church' in the Bible ever represents both the true & the false (or, the wheat & the tares, as you shared). The Church, which is Christ's Body, purchased with His Blood, & sealed with His Spirit, can never be fragmented to the point where some 'churches are true & others not'. I can only see in the Word that the Church is the Body of Christ (of the True), & any other representation of it, whether by their name or unbiblical beliefs or patterns, is simply our own categorization of them as 'church', & not the biblical meaning. Whenever the apostles address the Church in their epistles, it is to Christ's Body of believers, & within that Body, some may be careless in their lives, or even have false teachers arising from amongst them that need to be identified, corrected or rooted out. If a 'church' is not built upon Christ & His apostles' teachings, then this is a false church, or a nonentity, & consigned amongst the world of unbelievers.

So, when you write that "the Holy Spirit has been removed from corporate churches and Satan, coming as an angel of light, has actually been installed to rule there", I don't believe that the Spirit was ever there - there may be semblances of religiosity & adherence to the Word that can fool many, but how do they stand before God. And so 1 Peter 4:17 speaks about judgement of the members of His Body who don't remain true & not to the (true) Church which can never be removed.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION

All through the Prophets they speak of A DAY when great tribulation shall be poured on MAN, the very wrath of God.

The Prophets speak of this MAN; a substitute sent by God to have God's wrath pour out on ALL MANKIND, even those not yet born.

That MAN bore the SINS of ALL MANKIND;THE GREAT TRIBULATION, those already dead, those living during his life on earth, and those not yet born.

Matthew 24:21 ...for there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION ......

Jesus is prophesying of ALL THE PROPHECIES in the scriptures, that great tribulation, all the earth in birth pains.

Matthew 24:22 ...except those days should be shortened, there should no FLESH BE SAVED ....

You WERE SAVED by Christ death and resurrection, the DAYS OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION were SHORTENED, to THREE DAYS.......

Matthew 24:29 IMMEDIATELY after those days; from the time Christ left the supper table, the wrath of God was poured out on ALL MANKIND, yet only ONE MAN took it upon himself to be the SACRIFICE of that GREAT TRIBULATION.

Immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon (symbolic of Christ death) shall not give her light, and the stars stars shall FALL FROM HEAVEN .....

Revelation 12:4 ...and his tail drew a THIRD PART of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth.....

IT'S a PARABLE; explained in the PROPHECIES.....

Matthew 24:30 And then shall APPEAR THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN.....

IT'S A PARABLE.

Your were raised with Christ, THE NEW CREATION, CHRIST IN YOU .....

John 3:13 NO MAN has ascended into heaven, but he who came down from heaven, who is NOW IN HEAVEN.

IT'S a PARABLE.

You were raised with CHRIST, you are now the BODY OF CHRIST, the NEW HEAVEN ....CHRIST IN YOU .....

God Bless YOU! he gave himself TO YOU.

That they may be ONE, as we are ONE

Hi Jimbob.

Thanks for responding and sorry for such a delay on my response back. I normally can't engage until the weekend due to my work schedule.

Here's my view on this.

We are the light of the world, (The oil filled Lamps.)

In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5. we see this light mentioned in the believers in connection with the Day of the Lord. (As already established; "Not to be mistaken for the tribulation! but what is interesting is "If" the Holyspirit is taken out of the way/Removed and no longer restraining, then the children of light would become as those who sleep in the night!

He that comforts us, enlighten us and keeps us is no longer doing it and by nature we love Darkness. John 3:19.

Jesus says he will never leave us comfortless. John 14:16-20.

John 15:19. Because of this verse we should see it is not a worldly entity that desires or even capable of restraining evil.

We have three enemies that pushes back against Holiness, Our flesh, the world and the prince of the two, "Satan"

We have one source that empowers, but yet "PERMITS" That's the Holyspirit. We see the involvement and power of the Holyspirit shepherding his Church against these three enemies.

Romans 8:9-15. (The flesh)

1 John 4:4. (Satan)

John 14:16-20. (The World.).

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The subject here is the Thessalonians thought the day of the Lord was at hand! Paul says that day shall not come, except there come a apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed. Paul goes on to say; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

He is refering to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He is reminding them.

By the context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, they knew the order of events Paul was telling them. 1st The rapture. 2nd The man of sin revealed. 3rd the day of the Lord. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)

The Church is removed and the Holyspirit operates as it did in the Old Testament.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 parallels with Matthew 24:15.

GB.

Page 3.

You're quite correct: there's no trumpet sound mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21. In Matthew 24:31, it is the 'episunago' (gathering, or assembling, together in one place) of the Elect. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, it is the 'harpazo' (the snatching away from one place to another place), of the Church. Different Greek words which require a different understanding & application, implying both a different type of 'removal' of believers. One, a gathering, the other, a snatching away. And this snatching away is a pre-emptive act before the appointed Great Tribulation of God: beginning in a modest limited way (at the beginning of the last seven years), but ending in the final outpouring of God's Wrath. And this is Revelation 19:11-21 (with no trumpet call), the descent of those prepared from Heaven for that final battle & eternal securing & suffering of the beast & his prophet. Thank you again Jimbob for the time, effort & patience you've given to this thread. Blessings.

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c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.

Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.

Page 2.

b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.

Richard H Priday:

In your comment you said: either the natural death of our body and our inner man (that enter man is Christ) then in the presence of the Lord ...... 2 Corinthians 5:8

That is the RAPTURE, the natural GONE, and made ONE with Christ.

1 Timothy 6:16 .... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ....

1 Corinthians 15:54 ... this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ...death is swallowed up in victory ....

Isaiah 27:12 ....ye shall be GATHERED (by the angels: Matthew 24:31) ONE BY ONE, O ye house of Israel.

God Bless YOU!