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Yet, we haven't discussed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, which I had given in my last post (I only shared my own understanding). And this of course ties in with the Rapture; this too is important to consider when looking at the timing & character of the Great Tribulation/God's Wrath. So, maybe I'll keep this short & get your thoughts on that Scripture, if you so wish (no compulsion at all): What was deeply engaging those believers' minds that prompted Paul to pen these words of assurance? Who or what is the one who "letteth will let" ('katecho', restrains, holds back)? When this being or entity is "taken out of the way", what are the implications of that removal upon the Church & the World?
These are the questions I have to ask myself when looking at such verses, particularly in the light of eschatology, where we are compelled to form an opinion or a belief with often very little information given (at least information so succinct for us, that the early Church receiving such, would have grabbed the opportunity to request the author to expand his teaching). Obviously we can't do that & I sense that the early Church did know far more than is revealed to us now, but God has permitted that we receive what is given & hold onto it. Hence, our variations in understanding to what should otherwise be a straightforward doctrine.
Thank you for sharing this information for my consideration. I have read the account of the 70 AD destruction of the temple. The things Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the inspiration for the Maccabean Revolt.
Some people think that when Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:15 "there shall be an abomination of desolation" is that's what they called it when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, back in 165 B.C., put up his image.
Yeah, it happened once before. But in Matthew, this is a future event, not to be confused with that event. This is something that must happen in the future.
I know this is one of the most debated topics amongst believers, but like you, I am not looking for debate either.
I believe that all prophecy concerning the end time is based on Daniel 9:24-27. I also believe that the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. From what I have read, they are not the same message.
Looking at what Jesus said in Matthew 23:38, I understand that was fulfilled 38 years later in 70 A.D., when Titus the Roman General rode into Jerusalem and killed 1,600,000 Jews. He leveled the city, including the temple, just as Jesus said they would. Why?
Because they rejected their Messiah and even to this day, they no longer do sacrifice. That is because there is only one place that they can sacrifice and it is in Jerusalem, which is why the Jews don't sacrifice today.
But there will come a time in the future when the antichrist arrives on the scene, and he is going to help the Jews rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. And he's going to help them start sacrifices up again. And then right in the middle of the tribulation period, right in the middle of the 70th week, he is going to set up his image in the Holy of holies, and he is going to say that everybody must worship him.
Again, thank you for what you've shared.
God bless!
Part 3.
Matthew 24:32-34.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Israel represents the fig tree in scripture.
Hosea 9:10.
Jeremiah 24:2-3.
Joel 1:7.
This generation is a particular people of this time. (Israel)
Generations is used in that way in scripture as a particular people or Genealogy as seen in Genesis 5:1 and other places.
SO YOU KNOW IT IS NEAR WHEN YOU SEE ISRAEL START TO BLOSOM.
THAT DIDNT HAPPEN IN 70 AD.
Back to Daniel 9:24.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Reconciliation. Jesus done that on the cross, but no one is reconciled until they believe. As a Nation Israel still rejects Christ and will continue until the tribulation. Hosea 5:15, Matthew 23:39.
To finish the transgression. That refers to Israel. Zachariah 12:10 "The last days.
to bring in everlasting righteousness.
To anoint the most Holy. I also believe that's the Holy of holiness. but I believe that is in the Millennium temple that Ezekiel is talking about in the 41st through the 46 chapter.
I will have to leave off here for now Ronald.
God bless.
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
I have a question for you if you don't mind?
If what you are saying is true, that "Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, the church after the tribulation," and you say the elect is the church, and if I remember correctly, you don't believe the word "tribes" is a Jewish term that refers to Jews, and I am assuming you are referring to Matthew 24:30 by this?
But my question is: why would the Church mourn? Wouldn't it make more sense that this is referring to the Jews, not the church?
That would make more sense to me. I can see why they (the Jews) would mourn. When they see Jesus coming in the clouds, it is then that they are going to realize who Jesus is. When they see Him coming in the clouds with the marks of His crucifixion, they are going to realize that they crucified their Messiah. That's why they will mourn.
Zechariah 12:20 says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced. So at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look at Jesus coming in the clouds, and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!"
If you are not referring to Matthew 24:30, then please accept my apology.
It's no need to apologize, it's all in the context,
I just wanted to highlight the focus of the thread so I can present why I feel the elect is Israel in Matthew 24.
I believe Matthew 24:2 was accomplished by the "people" of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26.
I will get back to you soon Ronald with more to share on this.
Thanks and God bless.
Daniel mentions this in three places, Daniel 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11. Jesus mentions it in Matthew 24:15.
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in the book of Daniel.
In Matthew 24:16, Jesus gives instructions to the Jews on what to do when they see the abomination of desolation. Whenever those things in Verse 15 happen, Jesus says, let them which be in where? In Judea, because this is for the Jews. He says let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains.
The abomination of desolation is when the antichrist helps the Jews to start their sacrifices again. The bible says he is going to help the Jews to restart their sacrificing.
And then right in the middle of the tribulation period (approximately the 3-1/2 year mark), he is going to step in and put his image in the holy of holies. And he is going to say that everybody has to worship him. And he's going to corrupt the temple. And he's going to take over.
Jesus says that when you see that happen, when he puts up his image in the Holy of holies, He says flee, get out of there, because the great tribulation (the last 3-1/2 years), this pivotal point, is only a one activity event. Once that happens, then it is the great tribulation, like the world has never seen.
Here's something interesting I would like to share with you: In Verse 16, Jesus tells the Jews to flee into the mountains. This is recorded for us in Revelation Chapter 12 Verse 6. Isaiah says it is the Rock city of Petra.
The Jordanians went into the Rock city of Petra not too long ago and fixed it up as a tourist attraction. They put in nice restrooms and everything for the tourists.
As it stands today, the rock city of Petra has enough empty housing to house 250,000 people, plenty of room for the Jews who are told to flee. Maybe God had a hand in this? I'm sure the Jews in the middle of the tribulation period are going to say "thank you very much!"
Thanks again Jimbob. If I might take our discussion to anothe level. One great fact of the Church's Rapture, is not only its imminency but its suddenness. In the NT, the command was for readiness ( Matthew 25:13 (10 virgins); Luke 12:40; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13), for Christ's coming. The early Church was expecting it & proclaiming it, but the scoffers, then & now have proved themselves right ( 2 Peter 3:3,4) - Jesus hadn't come, nor has history ever recorded such a 'parousia' ever taking place. But the Church still continues to wait, knowing that God's Word is True & that God's Time is never man's concept of time ( 2 Peter 3:8). Therefore the question: why should we await for the any-moment return of Jesus, if that return could be quite easily plotted by the 'falling away', the appearance of the anti-Christ, even the beginning of the Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath which you believe only includes those catastrophic events of Matthew 24:29; Revelation chapter 16)?
Matthew 24:15 Therefore when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation; spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE (whosoever readeth, let him understand).
You are the HOLY PLACE, the temple of GOD.
Christ was talking to those around him, so this APPLIED to them, as well as us, it was AT HAND, near to be reality.
Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice (of animals) shall be TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, there shall be one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.
What is this 1,335 days? It's the changing of the COVENANTS, Christ coming as sinful flesh, and defeating
death; LIFE by Spirit, not blood.
Before the resurrection; LIFE was in the BLOOD, after the resurrecting, LIFE was from the Spirit.
Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE.
Man is THE HOUSE, now desolate without INHABITANT, it died on the cross.
Revelation 18:19 .....for in ONE HOUR (MAN, sinful fleshes death on the cross) is she made DESOLATE.
Revelation 17:17 ...and SHALL MAKE HER DESOLATE AND NAKED ..
Psalms 69:25 Let their habitation (house) be DESOLATE; and NONE dwell in their tents.
Isaiah 5:9 ...of a truth many houses shall be desolate ....
Are you DESOLATE; or has the Spirit of LIFE COME TO YOU?
Romans 8:2 For the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ Jesus, has made us FREE from the LAW of sin and death.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over HIS OWN HOUSE, whose house you are ...
You died on the cross; and become DESOLATE, no LIFE, you were raised a body, a new creation, life no longer of the blood; but OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST, by the Spirit of our Father.
Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery .....Christ in you ....
God Bless YOU!
Part 2.
I ended my last reply a little to soon.
By way of review I would like to remind us the context and topic.
1st the title of this post. ISRAEL GODS ELECT.
2nd The elect mentioned in Matthew 24 is Israel not the Church.
3rd The focus on Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 is Israel. Thanks.
In my last post I placed emphasis on the Desciples asking for "signs" of his coming to restore the kingdom and emphasis on the answer the Lord gave them.
(He gave them what they asked for.)
"The signs".
In Acts 1:6 they asked him directly "wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Notice; They wasn't asking for signs this time. ( He has left them and come back and still no Kingdom!)
He answered them in vs 7.
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
vs 8 he puts them to work building on the foundation he has laid by his death and resurrection. "Church things, Not kingdom.
We're in the interval several days after the 69th week when he was presented as king riding on a donkey. and then crucified as Daniel 9:26 presents.
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"
As I mentioned earlier Jesus points the Desciples to Daniel 9:27 as a sign in Matthew 24:15.
I will leave off here for now until this weekend.
Go's bless
Thanks for your reply.
You said you believe in Matthew the Desciples was asking Jesus when was he coming into power as king and setting up the kingdom and that would be the end of the age. He would deliver them from the Roman oppressors and form once again a great and independent Jewish kingdom and would restore justice and peace.
Here's the issues I have with that view.
Let's say you're right in the way the Apostles asked in Matthew 24:3. We have to put the emphasis is on the answerJesus gave.
He gives a far future scenario in that discourse when he points us to Daniel as the key to prophecy.
We also must keep in mind that they were asking for signs of his coming.
Whether they fully understood or not look at what Jesus replied.
"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
He said many shall "COME" in my name.
All through the Gospels he said he would go away and come again.
Whether they understood that or not doesn't put emphasis on the when and how.
But his answer does.
I'll continue this weekend.
God bless.
I understand you are busy with work and your concerns about your brother, so not to rush, not on Daniel, but just a few things to consider about Matthew 24. My understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is twofold, for then, and our future.
The reason is, history tells us the believers in Jesus got out and went to Pella across the Jordan river before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And on the sabbath, today would not matter but then the gates would be locked, and it would be hard to leave.
Matt. 24:3, in Mark, we see it was Peter, James, John, and Andrew that ask Jesus in private. Jesus had just told them the temple would be destroyed and Matthew records "what sign of thy coming and the end of the world." It is easy to jump to they were talking about Jesus' second coming, but.
Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were hidden from them until all was done. Luke 9:44-45 Luke 18:31-34 and after they did not believe He resurrected. Mark 20:9-11 Luke 24:6-8, John 20:9. Even right before He ascended, they were expecting Jesus to set up the kingdom then, Acts 1:6. So why in Matthew 24:3 would we interpret it as if they were asking Jesus about His second coming?
I will send you by this weekend what I have studied on the six things determined in Daniel 9:24 if I can shorten it enough, I do not like to send long posts. If you don't want me to post it let me know.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, some say that but if we examine the text closely it groups Titus with "The People" who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.
Let's highlight what the people shall do.
AND THE PEOPLE of the prince that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY; (That's what Titus did.) He's part of the people.
They are the people of the prince that SHALL COME. ( This means after the destruction.) And he haven't come yet.
vs 27 continues on about this prince.
'(AND HE) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".
This Parallels the work of the Antichrist in Revelation and Jesus makes reference to this as end times prophecy in Matthew 24:15.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Jesus was answering the questions of the disciples from vs 3.
(And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?)
This puts the work of the prince in Daniel 9 far future.
Daniel 9:24 is the scope of things.
Daniel 9:25 details the 69 weeks.
Daniel 9:26 details the interval. (What's to happen after the 69th week but BEFORE the 70th week.
Daniel 9:27 details the 70th week.
I will elaborate more on this over the weekend.
God bless.
We are currently in the period that God calls the Great Tribulation ( Matt 24) which likely began in 1988 when the Church Age came to an end and the churches and congregations came under the Judgement of God. God commands true believers to come out of the churches during this time. And the "abomination of desolation", Satan, spoken of in Daniel is ruling in the churches.
Wonderfully thought God has been and continues to save a "great multitude that no man can number" outside of the churches, from many nations. This is called the Latter Rain.
Once God has completed saving all of His Elect, Christ will return and the Resurrection and the Rapture will occur, this earth, Satan, and the unsaved will be destroyed, and God will create new heavens and a new earth where true believers will live and reign with Christ eternally.
The Great Tribulation is a spiritual event. It is not political nor a time of physical suffering.
Thanks Jimbob for sharing what you did, and yes, I do believe in a pre-trib Rapture. I would ascertain from your comments that you too believe that there will be a 'catching away', a rapture if you will, but you find it taking place after the (Great) Tribulation ( Matthew 24:21) from the verses you cited in the same chapter.
If I had only this discourse in Matthew to go on, then I could well agree with you, as it clearly shows the sequence of events in answer to the disciples questions (with an emphasis on the tribulation the Jews would go through when Rome ransacked Jerusalem in 70 AD). The matters that indicate to me that the rapture & the second coming of Jesus are two events, are found in the meaning of the 'Great Tribulation & the Mystery'.
The Great Tribulation does not only mean that Israel, & by extension the world, will suffer greatly ("as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be"), but the reason for it is because of the great Judgement of God against sinful men at the Day of the Lord. Just as what happened to the world in Noah's day, & to Sodom & Gomorrah, so God's Anger will also be poured out at His appointed time. And yet, His people 'are not appointed to His Wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ'; Paul had just finished writing about the Rapture in the previous chapter ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 & wrote this in 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The Great Tribulation (of God's Wrath) is judgement against unbelievers - the believers' sins were judged at the Cross & those in Christ are declared "not guilty", or 'justified'. Should we then be judged again? For what purpose?
IG,
He says to give your money to the exchangers, and then at my coming, I should have received mine own with interest. That is what usury means, with interest.
Here is what I believe to be the moral of the story in Matthew 25:28-30:
God has left the Jews with the greatest commission that He could ever give. He left His word. The Jews should be out preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to whole world. But instead, Paul says in Romans Chapters 9 through 11 that the Gentiles have been grafted in. The Jews rejected their Messiah. So that's why we were brought in, and we are now preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But it says, so that they can be jealous because we have their Messiah. And eventually, at His second coming, all the Jews that are alive will be saved. And so basically what He is saying is, I left you with a commission, with an assignment. What did you do with it? I dug a hole and buried it. You will be cast in to outer darkness. That is hell.
That is an interesting way of looking at it. Please allow me to share my thoughts with you on this parable. I notice that these three servants were each given talents (money), one five talents, another two talents, and the third, one talent. You might already know this, but a talent was a lot of money. It is equal to 6,000 drachmas. I know that might not mean anything, but 6,000 drachmas, which is 20 years wages, it equals 1 TALENTA.
In our money, one talent would be worth $600,000. So, we are going to deal with somebody that gave back 10 talents. So now we've got a $6 million investment here. That is a lot of money.
We see in Matthew 25:18 that it says he that had received one went and digged in the earth and hid his lord's money. As you know, he is the only one who buried what was given to him. So, the one who had one talent, he comes up to the Lord, and he says I knew you that you are a hard man. And here is what are called Modal Participles in the Greek.
This is what He means by a hard man. He says, you reap where you haven't sown. I mean, you don't even put seed in the ground, and you expect something to be there? You are a hard man!
And you gather where thou hast not strawed. Now the word strawed is a good word, isn't it? It means to scatter. It is the word DIASPORA. You gather together where you haven't even scattered anything. That is a hard man!
Matthew 25:25 tells us that this man was afraid. He hid the talent in the earth, and then later comes back with it and says "here you go, here's your talent back!" He didn't lose it, right? I would have said you are fired, but the Lord had some harsher words in Verses 26 and 27.
I mean if you know He is a hard guy, you better get out there and do something with it, right? You don't go hide it and say well, He is a hard man. Yeah, well guess what, the hard man is coming back, and he wants to talk to you.
I need a little more space so I will send a part 2.
Jesus says to us come and buy gold from Me. Revelation 3:18 Now we know this that the gold we buy is the gateway to the kingdom of God. For eternity. The others who have not settled with lamp oil or with interest. Is not Fit for Gods Kingdom.
It would be nice if more ppl here on the web have some thoughts about this. He died for all, but not evrybody is called. Because they are against Him. Dont want to belive in Him. Ohh i wish that i have bought some gold and white cloth from Lord Jesus.
God bless us all and give us wisdom and understanding in His word. Love u all in Christ.
As you asked, here is what I can share on Matthew 24:29-31. I will need more than one post to give you, my understanding.
(Part 1)
These verses speak of the promise of Jesus' second coming. Understanding the 7-steps of a Jewish wedding helps give a better understanding of Christ's second coming, and also some of the Jewish views about when Christ is coming back. If you would like for me to send you what the 7-steps are, I will do so. It is very interesting, I promise! They are literal steps of a Jewish wedding, and they parallel the things spoken of in Matthew's gospel.
So, reading through Matthew 24:29-30, it says that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give any light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.
Now the word "tribes" is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.
In Revelation 1:7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.
So, at this time when Christ comes (at His second coming), the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" They are going to recognize Him. And we see in Verse 31 that the Lord's going to round them all up. It says in this verse that He's going to come upon the clouds of heaven. That's given to us in Daniel 7:13.
To be continued...
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you that the term elect is referring to the church. We are the bride of Christ. I agree to that. But we are not the elect. Going all the way back to the OT, the term elect is a title referring to the Jews. The church was not in existence when the Jews were given this title. They are God's elect, His chosen people. Looking at Matthew 24:22 which says "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
If God did not have a time period when He says okay, I am going to stop, everybody would be wiped out. But for the sake of the elect, which again is special word brought over from the Old Testament as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. It does not mean they are all saved. They are His chosen people, His idea, and He has chosen them out. And He realizes there are 144,000 of them out there, plus all the others who believed, and this is something that is going to happen at the last part of the tribulation period. Those days will be shortened for the 144,000 Jews. The church will not be here.
In Revelation Chapter 11, John says that at the second coming of Christ, all of Israel will be saved. That is what that verse makes reference to. At His second coming, all of the Jews at that time will be saved. So, God shortened the days, 3 years, just so His own people (His elect) could survive.
You are asking for my understanding of Matthew 24:29-31, so I will share that with you in a separate post as there is not enough space here to do so.
To answer your question, yes, I do believe in a pre- tribulation rapture of the church. However, I do not base that belief on Matthew 24:29-31. I base my belief on what I read in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5.
Here's something I think is important to understand about end time prophecy:
All prophecies concerning the last days are based upon Daniel 9:24-27, which presents the 70th week of Daniel. And the 70th week of Daniel is divided into four section:
1) Pains of birth: first 3 years of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:4-14)
2) Pivotal point: the mid-point of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:15)
3) Perils of tribulation: the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:16-28)
4) Promise of his coming: the Second Coming of Christ. ( Matthew 24:29-32)
All end time prophecy is centered on the Jewish people.
I can give you my understanding of Matthew 24:29-31, but only if you are interested.
Now I do have a question for you. In one of your posts, you say the elect are not the Jews, but the bride of Christ, the church. But in your current post, you are telling me that the elect are the children of Israel.
Am I missing something here?
(Part 2): If I may comment on a couple things you said, first about Matthew 24:29-31. You say that "Many people think that's the same event as Jesus' return riding a white horse, they say the elect are the Jews," and "It is not the same event, and these elect that are gathered together are not the Jews. They are the bride of Christ, the church."
If you are saying that the rapture of the church and Christ's second coming are two separate events, then I agree with you on that. As far as the word "elect," this is a special word brought over from the Old Testament as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. I agree that the church is the bride of Christ, but we are not the elect. The elect are the Jews. That's what they were called in the Old Testament and that's what they always will be, God's elect. I find no scripture reference in the New Testament that shows where the meaning of the word elect has been changed to mean someone other than the Jews?
You also said that "The Jews don't believe Jesus is the Son of God." That is not completely true. Many did not believe, but there are many who did. Almost all of the 12 original apostles were Jews. I'm sure they believed who Jesus was. Matthew also was a Jew. Peter himself, being a Jew, he confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Please know that I am in no way wanting to argue with you. I am simply sharing with you what I understand from my study of scripture. I know you are doing the same and I appreciate anything and everything you wish you share. We may or may not always agree, but there's always something we can learn from each other. I have been posting here for about five years now, and many here have an idea of what I believe and don't believe. I think you are fairly new here, so we have not learned much from each other as far as what our beliefs are. I hope to learn more about your beliefs. Thank you for sharing!
Since you are asking for thoughts from anybody, I would like to share mine. This word generation in Matthew 24:34 has no association with years at all. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.
Some theologians have said that the word "generation" means 40 years. Today, people attach different numbers of years to this word generation. Some say 70, some say more. But it doesn't have anything to do with a number of years.
There have been books written by people that have said that generation meant a certain number of years and that when Israel became a nation in 1948, they figured 40 years from there that the rapture was going to happen in 1988.
Well, 1988 passed and it didn't happen. But someone wrote a book on it and made millions of dollars. And then when it didn't happen, they wrote another one as to when the next one would be.
But GENEA has nothing to do with years. It is a race or kind of people.
Basically, what Jesus is saying here, is this kind or race of people, (the Jews), shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. They are His elect. They are His protected people, His chosen people, and He will fulfill His promises to them.
I used to believe that the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 meant a certain number of years. But now I understand it differently. There is no way I can come to any other conclusion on this word GENEA.
This word has no association to a number of years. It means a race or kind of people, specifically the Jewish race.
If we choose to change the word GENEA to mean a number of years, and we use 1948 as the beginning of that number, then we can know for sure the year that Jesus will return. Jesus says no one knows, nor can we know. There Bible gives no clues for us to determine the year or time of His return.
One thing we can know is that the Jewish race (GENEA) will not pass until those things be fulfilled.
Hope these help
In this letter by John to the Churches, the person who denies the divinity of God, i.e. from out of the Person of God, proceeded the Son (called, the Word of God) and the Holy Spirit, this denier has the anti-christ spirit. They are prepared to acknowledge the historical Jesus (no one can deny that), but to believe that He is the Son of God, proceeding from God ( John 3:13; John 6:38; John 17:5), but the one who has the false spirit will refuse to believe or accept this Truth.
And many false Christs have arisen over the ages, which Jesus warned us would happen ( Matthew 24:23,24). They were all men, carnal, deceived, & now dead. Not one, nor any other in the future, can ever come close to the Jesus we read of in the Bible & if you are a Christian, to know this Jesus deep within your heart & life, by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. So, please read of the true Jesus in the Gospels & learn all you can about Him - you will find that none can ever compare to Him - none will ever love us so much as to willingly lay down His Life for us, so that we can receive salvation from our sin's penalty. All others, whether coming as a Jesus or as a Messiah of men, are all false, & can never express God's Image & Glory as the Lord Jesus Who died for us & was raised to Heaven.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christ (Christ is the word, so there shall arise false words), and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; in so much that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (but is not possible), they should deceive the very elect.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, WHO WERE ORDAINED TO THIS CONDEMNATION .....
God says he himself has caused this and brought it to pass.
Luke 22:31 ....Satan has desired to have you, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU as wheat ....
Luke 22:32 But I WILL PRAY FOR YOU: that your faith (the faith of Christ) fail not .... IT'S CHRIST'S WORKS ....
Isaiah 28:21 ....that he may do HIS WORK, HIS STRANGE WORK; and bring TO PASS his act, HIS STRANGE ACT.
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his maker! Let the potsherds strive with the potsherds of the earth, Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? OR THY WORK, He hath no hands?
Isaiah 48:10 Behold I have refined the, but not with silver, I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself; but endureth for awhile, and when tribulations and persecutions ariseth because of the WORD, by and by he is offended.
Christ had many disciples, but when the words became to hard for them they went the way of the world.
Matthew 13:23 ..... and false prophets, shall show great signs and wonders .....
Revelation .... and with him the false prophet ....were cast alive into the a lake of fire burning with BRIMSTONE
Isaiah 30:33 ....the breath of the Lord, like a stream of BRIMSTONE, doeth kindle it.
Isaiah 33:14 ...Who among us SHALL DWELL with the devouring fire ( Hebrews 12:29)? who amongst us SHALL DWELL with everlasting burning?
Isaiah 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise and garments rolled in blood, but this (battle) shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
Isaiah 9:18 ...and the people shall be the fuel of the fire .....
God Bless YOU!
This form of self-transformation is also referred to as self-righteousness ( Romans 10-3), while in truth you follow after a image of a false god and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Gal. 4:8; Rev. 12:9). This is how Satan has transformed himself into an angel of light ( 2 Cor. 11:13-15) and deceived the whole world ( Rev. 12:9), as people by nature are in fact children of the devil ( Acts 13:10).
Gal. 1:11,12. The gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ ( Daniel 12:4,9; Amos 3:7; Matthew 16:17; Luke 2:26; Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:10; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 3:3,5; Rev. 1:1).
The Word of God is God ( John 1:1) and the scriptural references we use serve as confirmation that it is not us that speak, but the Spirit of our Father that speaketh in us ( 2 Samuel 23:2; Matthew 10:20; Acts 4:8; 6:10).
Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it ( Matthew 7:14).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after ----it's been 2000 years, that's not immediately after --- the tribulation of those days ---it's Christ's tribulation, leading up to his death on the cross, that he is speaking about ----shall the sun be darkened, Matthew 27:45 ---he is quoting Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12 a prophecy about Christ death on the cross ---and the moon (symbolising Christ) shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven ---- Revelation 12:4 ---and the powers of heaven shall be shaken ----all this description is a parable Matthew 13:34. Christ's words are most often HIDDEN in parables and symbols.
Matthew 24:30 Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ---this is still symbolic and a parable ---heaven is symbolic of man, where GOD DWELLS, Colossians 2:27 ...Christ in you .... John 3:13 ... he which is in heaven ....
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will DO NOTHING, but he revealeth his secret to his servant the prophets.
Your raptured: one at a time
Isaiah 27:12 ....and ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE ....two in the field, one taken one left ....
God bless you, as you study and Christ reveals himself to you.