Discuss Numbers 31

In this chapter, God tells Moses that he is to charge the Israelites to war against Midian for the sins that this people brought to the Israelites with Baal worship and sexual immorality. After this battle is won, Moses would die.

In this battle, 1,000 men from each tribe went to war. Phineas, son of Eliazer (the high priest) was to take the holy instruments to the battlefield along with trumpets.

I am wondering what these instruments were. Were they musical? Or were they worship implements?

So Israel went to war with Midian. They killed the 5 kings of Midian along with Balaam. They killed all the adult males, but they spared the women and children. God was not pleased with this since the women of Midian seduced the men of Israel to engage in the sin that brought a plague from God unto Israel for falling into sin with these women.

Perhaps the men of Israel felt merciful to these women, but God said to kill all of the women except those who were virgins (most likely young women under the age of puberty). They were also to kill all of the male children. In this way, Midian as a nation was wiped out. The young girls that remained were assimilated into Israeli culture and practice.

It is interesting to note that Moses' father in law, Jethro, was a Midianite along with his wife Zipporah. Perhaps they were a godly anomaly among the Midianites.

Balaam, who could not curse the Israelites because prevented him to do so supernaturally, but instead devised the plan to tempt Israelites into sin with the women of Moab/Midian, was slain in this war. God brought him to justice. Even though Balaam had spoken with God and had an angel intervene, he still was unrepentant and did not submit to the true God. He had a stubborn heart. It seems also that the Moabites and Midianites must have either intermarried or else formed an alliance prior to the arrival of the Israelites and were allies together in this land that they shared. ...cont.

I see absolutely nothing good about this, and the justifications I see from other comments are abhorrent to me.

Is this really the God-breathed word I'm supposed to follow? Is this supposed to be relevant to the future of Christianity, completely unchanged and unadapted for future situations? Should one take this "as a warning" for what happens when you disobey God? Is this supposed to instill a reflection of His love?

Or, should I accept this as a method used at the time, and it's God-breathed nature is in the fact someone factually recorded this historical occurrence?

I am much more willing to accept the latter than try to justify genocide as "ordained by God" in any way, shape, or form. That can send us living today down an exceptionally slippery slope to recreate something as horrendous as the Holocaust while saying, "It's all the Lord's Will."

Matthew 25:31-46, Psalms 11:5, Luke 12, Malachi 2:11-17, Malachi 3:5

As you read in Malachi 3:6 GOD is true to his promises, & left a remnant

How were the Israelite soldiers to know which of the enemies' women and female children were virgins or not?

Also, am I to understand that Moses claimed that God told him that the Israelite soldiers could rape Virginia women and little girls as a reward for their victory in war?

Are today's Jewish boys when achieving manhood at age 13, aware of this disturbing history?

Hi Mubarak. As you've referred to Numbers 31:17,18: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves": the verses indicate that these girls were not of marriageable age & still cared for & housed by their families.

How can the Israeli army be certain about this? I can't tell for sure, except to understand that even in some cultures today (Africa, ME, S. Asia), a lady is appointed to verify the virginity of a girl (if there's any doubt) prior to her marriage. But given the command to kill, in Numbers, I doubt whether any thorough examination would be first conducted before the pogrom, meaning that some 'older' girls might have been caught up in the slaughter, which shouldn't have been.

According to numbers 31:17_18, the verses shown that those who know man or woman by lying (i.e sexual intercourse) with him or her should be killed, so my question here is: how did the children of israel understand if a woman is virgin or not and vice versa?

No, not clearly described, but Genesis 24, seems to establish a tradition.

However these showed dedication to GOD of their treasure : Exodus 35:22, Numbers 31:50,

The reference I see as a gift to bride to be, I've found in Genesis 24:22,27, but also restoration gifts in Job 42:11,

Wedding rings for fingers were not mentioned that I've found.

Hopefully this is helpful

Psalms 83, cross-reference,

Vr 6 = Deuteronomy 23:3-6, Numbers 20:18-22, Numbers 24:18, Judges 11:17, 1 Kings 11:14, 2 Kings 3, 2 Kings 8:20,

Vrs. 5 & 6 = 2 Kings 8:22,

Vrs 6 & 7 = 1 Samuel 14:47,

Ezekiel 25:12, Joel 3:19, Amos 1:9,

Vrs 9 = Numbers 31:3-9, Joshua 13:21-32,

Vrs 11 = Judges 7:25, vrs 6 & 11 = Judges 8,

1 Chronicles 18:11, 1 Chronicles 18, whole chapter, 2 Chronicles 25:20-24,

Hopefully these are helpful in your study

Places where Old Testament teaching and Jesus teaching appear to be opposite. Eye for an eye..love your enemy etc.

A Virgin maybe pure blood race. As to how you can tell a virgin from not, would be hard to do.

Look to Egypt for the true laws of God, as the Pharos where God to the people and the Pharos considered them self's God and and the laws they made were God's Law.

Black Africans believe they are God, See 5% Nation.

According to Revelation ( Revelation 2:14), Balaam told King Balak how to get the Israelites to commit sin by enticing them with sexual immorality and food sacrificed to idols. The Israelites fell into transgression due to these traps and God sent a deadly plague to them as a result ( Numbers 31:16).

That was then, today is the now. We have the salvation of Jesus Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us avoid pitfalls that lead to sin. We have the Bible to show us how to follow Jesus.

The Book of Romans is a good place to start, but I think John chapter 3 is. When no one wants to be our friend; you will always have a friend in Jesus.

Some people have had real life experiences with the awesome Love of God. I always thought God was way way up in the sky somewhere. I didn't think he could hear me asking for help. But I found out that is not true. He is as close as your next breath. He cares about all of our needs. We just have to begin some conversations with Him...called praying. He talks to people but it's best to be born again ( John 3), so you can get your ears tuned to His Voice.

See if Isaiah 1:18 is desirable to you.

When I first came in here I read a lot of posts on the Testimonies Link. Many have posted how the came to believe in Jesus. Everyone of those is a real person.

here God tells Moses what he should do [ numbers 31:17 through 18 now therefore kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known man intimately but all the girls who have not known man it's a mid-lease pair for yourself] and here God is setting the rules for his people that owned slaves [Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.]

God is also completely comfortable with the concept of beating your slaves, as long as you don't kill them. [Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelite's ruthlessly.]

Here God states where you may purchase your slaves, and clearly specifies that slaves are property to be bought, sold and handed down. and this is what Jesus has to say about .[ 1st Peter 2:18 slave submit yourself to your masters with all respect not only the good and gentle ones but also the cruel.] shouldn't the Bible say, "Slavery is wrong -- you may have no slaves"? Shouldn't one of the Commandments say, "thou shalt not enslave"? Ephesians 6:5

New International Version

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Colossians 3:22

New International Version

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

God is love. He does not punish sin. He does not have to. What you sow you reap. Sin brings death all by itself - the second death that is. We all experience the first death which is the bruising of the heel of the seed of the woman (dual application, our experience and Jesus experience). We will be resurrected however. Another story.

The lesson in this chapter is about what happens when we disobey God. To save us form our own weakness and bring us back into harmony with Him after we disobey usually causes heartache. I am sure it was hard for the soldiers to have to kill the women and children but if it were not done worse consequences would have resulted.

Remember Genesis 3, when man sinned? For man's sake we read that God moved him out of the garden and the earth was "cursed". Man had to eek out a living the hard way... God didn't really curse the earth himself, it was a natural result of the consequences of sin. This is a hard concept for us to understand. God was uttering what he knew would happen, its God's foreknowledge. Not predestination.

Israel was never to go to was to enter the promised land. God had "appointed" hornets to drive out the people ( natural disaster I interpret it as ( Ex. 23:38 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee and Deuteronomy 7:20

Moreover, the LORD your God will send the hornet against them until all the survivors and those hiding from you have perished.)..

The earth itself revolts against us because of our sin. We do things that upsets the balance of nature - like climate change. And all the mining and drilling for oil etc... upsets the equilibrium of the earth and causes problems (which scientist never tell us about).

So Israel's disobedience disrupted God's plan and set in train a series of unfortunate events that resulted in Israel having to go to war - because they believed that was the only way to conquer. They did not trust God's way.

In this case, Moses told the men these adult women caused a plague among you before and many die. You want that to happen again? They had to die. The male offspring would become warriors to avenge their fathers who Israel killed - they had to die too (consider Moses himself re killing the Egyptian). The other females would become servants.

Reading the Bible is serious matter, just as taking God at His Word. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide and open you heart to the True Understanding As God intended it to be. Number ch.31 is hard and serious implying His nature, attributes and His Righteousness to rid Canaan of SIN and put His People, the Hebrews (Jews) and under His Divine Guidance this people will be a Model for pagan surroundings and all nations Nations.God gave Jews the Bible and Ten Commandments which are used by nations. God will not tolerate Sin, He didn't look at Jesus when He took on the sin of all. We all should take the Free Gift of SALVATION. His shed blood a covering for our sin.

Balaam was a seer or prophet. What he told Balak was given him from the LORD -23:3, 24:13. Balaam didn't bless the people. The LORD did -22:12. Then Balaam instructed Balak on how to turn the LORD'S blessing into a curse so that he could make war against the people and defeat them -22:6, 31:16, Rev.2:14.

Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. Why did they kill Balaam? He never cursed them as he was told to do but blessed them every time.

Does Gen 14 establish prelaw tithing as a doctrine? Abraham tithed the spoils of war. And then gave the other 90% back to the King of Sodom. Not according to Numbers 31: 27-30 7 Gen 28 Jacob vowed to tithe but never did so how does that establish tithing as a doctrine. 2CORN 9:7 Necessity: imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument.

This chaper was informative. This was to cleanse the area of the sin the Midianit's had caused upon the israelites and the area. The women and girls that had been with men were killed because they were unclean. They saved only the innocent.

The people were killed to stop evil from spreading through the Jewish chosen nation.

Did not understand why some women and children were killed, though not questioning God,s actions

I am having a hard time with this chapter. I 'd it possible that we are all looking for a meaning behind this chapter when there may not really be one? It is simply telling us what was going on at that time. However I dint understand why God would tell Moses to have all these people killed especially the children.

Diana re verse 28. It is inconceivable to me that God would condone that which He detested in the heathen cultures. ie human sacrifice. Therefore, the only conclusion is that they were used in His service by the priests. Also note the 32 virgins in verse 40. Another thought, to my knowledge asses were never used for sacrifices, and so the list in verse 28 does not mean these things were used for that only that they were used in the Lords service.. my2cts.

And IS do also in 2014 !!!!!!

I was wondering if there was human sacrifice meant by 1 in 500

These little ones were saved from slaughter, unlike all the other Midianites. We don't know why they were saved; we can only guess at God's purpose here and I'm puzzled as to the procedure for identifying these lucky ones. Exactly how it was done defies imagination - 32000 is a lot to examine.

We are supposed to believe the baby boys killed deserved to die, because they would mislead the Chosen People when they grew up. Hmmm. I'm not sure this is a good reason for killing baby boys. Also the baby girls were kept, not for sinful purposes, but as slaves. Again, I am not convinced. The God Lovers will have to try harder. Besides, God said Do Not Kill, but here He commands that extermination of the Midianites. I'm having trouble reconciling these conflicting instructions. Maybe it's the Devil in me that is blinding me from the truth? Perhaps, but who made the Devil? and who made me? It's all very confusing.

Human beings have always strived to understand the meaning of their existance. Even today there are many people in the position of authority (Moses was the authority figure in this chapter) who say,"God said this or that. God hates this or that" when no such thing actually happened. Its just what they would want God to say, especially when it helps to justify their decisions and allows them to "lead"the people in the direction the leader wants them to go. Believing that God actually "said" anything is pretty naive. Believing that God takes sides when all it does is justify doing horrible things to other people is just plain wrong. Every time a story is told it is embellished and changed by the very human storyteller. Keep that in mind when you look at an interpretation while trying to read it looking for absolute fact. Use your common sense

Anonymous on 11/09/2013 saw the truth of this Chapter. I say this: much to myself as to others like me: we all are standing before a Righteous God and time is ticking. His mercy is as fierce....AS His Judgement. He will love us to the end if we acknowledge Him. His fierce Judgement on the Midianites is no different from the Final Judgement. Oh may we see the truth in this Chapter...and embrace the love of this Great God which He has made available for us through His Son Jesus Christ.....before it is too late. Let's receive His love and learn how to love our neighbors, because ONE DAY it shall be over for us as humans...and then we'll slide into HIS MARM GLOW OF LOVE FOR EVERMORE or....perish......for...ever. It is a choice we make as the clock of our lives tick each day we live, in the way we live our lives. The Midinites and their ancestors made their choice long before that day. The neighbors of NOAH also made those choices years before the day the Flood came. I pray that all ...from henceforth, be touched by and covered with the love of Christ to make the right choice(s). Oh that all may see the truth of this Chapter I pray.

While the truths of Numbers 31 are difficult for my human heart to confront, and the terror of an utterly righteous God overwhelming, I must find a way through this fearful maze while at the same time knowing this indeed is the God with whom we all have to do. Consigning myself to hell because I do not like his terrible justice does not seem like a reasonable solution and denial will not change the fact. So I am left with recognizing how very worthy of God's fearful judgment I without question a transgressor and finding it wise to make peace which, ah, joy of my soul, I find in Christ alone, upon whom I cast myself with total abandon for alas, he is my only hope. But what a hope he is! Hope of the hopeless, help of the helpless, Jesus what a name for sinners!