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Note : Matthew 24:8, Matthew 24:7, Matthew 24:21-24, these are Jesus Words, Matthew 24:29, " Immediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31,
Please note: these all also recorded as Jesus Words : Mark 13:23, Mark 13:24-27, " But in those days after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall togather his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Revelation 6, note Revelation 6:10-11, Revelation 8, see Revelation 8:3-4, Revelation 9, Revelation 10, Note: Revelation 10:7, Revelation 11, Please notice: Revelation 11:15-19,
1Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1Thessalonians 5:1-10, 2Thessalonians 1:4-10, Please note: this was written after 1Thessalonians to clarify : 2Thessalonians 2, Please read: 2Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
2Peter 2:9,
Jesus Words again, praying for all believers: John 17, notable : John 17:15 " I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
Hopefully helpful
Revelation 13:5 And there was give him (man) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him for forty two months.
One thousand two hundred ninety days. Forty two months. Three and a half years. Christ ministry on earth.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time daily sacrifice shall be taken away (old covenant) and the abomination THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.
Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded (Christ's resurrection), ....saying, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for the age of the age.
John 19:30 .....It is finished ......
Hebrews 2:8 ....we see NOT YET all things put under him.
You commented the other day that just because we don't believe, doesn't make it not so.
Christ said he speaks as if all things are done.
We should look at his words as if all things are done.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which believed (his words) do enter into rest ......the works were finished before the foundation of the world.
Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, AS I live saith the Lord, Every knee shall bow, and every tongues shall confess
to God.
It's this lake of fire (for our God is a consuming fire) that CAUSES Confession to salvation.
I'm out of characters, give your rebuttal and I will respond.
God Bless YOU!
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week....
This is talking about Christ confirming the NEW COVENANT.
From his entering into Jerusalem (Sunday)on the colt of and ass (prophecy) to his resurrection to LIFE (Sunday), ONE WEEK and the covenant was confirmed.
.......and in the midst of the week (the day he was crucified) he shall cause the sacrifice (old covenant) and obligation TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (no LIFE other than the LIFE OF CHRIST), even until the consumption, and that DETERMINED (judgement) shall be poured out on the DESOLATE (those not having THE LIFE OF CHRIST).
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice (old covenant) shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation SET UP, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
THREE and ONE HALF YEARS, Christ ministry in the flesh. FIRST COMING.
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and COMETH to the one thousand three hundred thirty five days (PENTECOST), Christ ministry in the Spirit. SECOND COMING.
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues shall see their dead bodies (sinful flesh, dead in trespasses) three days and a half (Christ betrayal to Christ resurrection) and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in the graves.
Revelation 11:11 and after three days and a half (laying in the grave with Christ) the SPIRIT OF LIFE from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet (these whose names are written in the BOOK OF LIFE, once dead, Now have THE LIFE OF CHRIST, and great fear fell upon them that saw them.
Revelation 20:9 Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.
God Bless YOU!
Romans 12:6,
2Peter 1:16-21,
1Timothy 4:14,
Revelation 1:3,
Gifting working within the Body: 1Corinthians 12, 1Corinthians 13, direction concerning in Church: 1Corinthians 14:29-40,
Prophets yet to come: Revelation 11:3-19, false prophet yet to come: Revelation 16:12-15, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10,
Revelation 19:10,
Revelation 22,
John the Baptist referred to as Prophet: Luke 1:76, Luke 3:4, Matthew 13:57, Mark 6:4, Luke 4:24, Luke 7:26,28, Luke 20:3-20, John 1:19-37,
Acts 3:22-26, Acts 7:35-60, Titus 1:12,
Matthew 10:41,
Jesus talking about Prophets in HIS day, referred to himself also: Matthew 21:26, Matthew 11:9, Mark 11:32, John 4:4,
Luke 13:33, Luke 24,
Paul & others acknowledged prophecy, Prophets, even Women that did Prophecy: Acts 21:8-14,
Hope these are helpful
Matthew 24:3-51, Mark 13:5-37, 1Corinthians 15:41-58, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, Psalms 97:2, Psalms 104:3, Joel 2:1-15, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Matthew 26:62-68, Mark 14:60-65, Revelation 1:7, 2Thessalonians 1:4-12, 2Thessalonians 2:1-17, Revelation 6:9-17, Revelation 7, Revelation 8, note Revelation 8:6 continues on through Revelation 9, & Revelation 10, Revelation 10:6-7, Revelation 14, note Revelation 14:12-20,
Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:12-15, Revelation 20, in context &
Revelation 1:5, Colossians 1:18,
Hebrews 6:1-3, Hebrews 11, Revelation 11:15-19, Acts 24:15, Mark 12:26-27, Luke 16:19-31
Hope these are helpful
Jesus' coming is right after the sun and moon are darkened also known as the Lords Day
Read Mathew 24 Jesus answers the question of what will happen in the end and in sequence.
And more specifically read Matt 24:29-30
The book of revelation matches up perfectly.
Read it with no preconceived ideas.
God's Word is AMAZING and the truth.
These two witnesses will be testifying in the streets of Jerusalem for the first 3-1/2 years. There will be two witnesses, 144,000 Jews, and an angel flying around in mid-heaven for 3-1/2 years warning people of what is to come in the last 3-1/2, known as the Great Tribulation. So once the church is removed from the earth, God is going to use these two witnesses, the 144,000 Jews, and an angel flying non-stop for 3-1/2 years to reach the entire world (those who are left behind), warning them not to receive the mark, and preaching the message of salvation to those who are left on this earth.
My reply was to show Kay when she said "The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged" End quote.
You said, " Spencer What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12.
End quote.
However these are rapture quotes by them. again, Here's fragments of the post.
Oregin
"since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise."
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air."
I have been involved in several debated topics here on this site, mostly something to do with directly or indirectly to salvation.
I've read your views.
Our views are far off!!
As I said to Thomas I share with you.
1 John 5:11-13. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
When the Lord returns we all will have to give an account.
2 Corinthians 5:10.
I would love to receive one and hear this. Matthew 25:21.
I don't think I'll hear that spending all my time chasing down anymore that believes in the rapture.
But I would urge anyone to get their household ready and be watchful.
We have to be careful on how and when to engage because some find and treat the bible as 'Just" fascinating, or "Just" Interesting and treat the books as a great conversation piece.
There's no virtue in this.
I add, I have no Interest in turning this site into a battle ground over less important issues.
Are you Interested in discussing soteriology?
What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12
It's crucial to match the event with the time line. In doing so, we see they all happen at the 7th trumpet in accordance with the 1st resurrection. The 7th trumpet resurrection is reserved for the saints; the only ones hidden in allegory throughout 7 chapters of Revelation, and mentioned elsewhere. They were groomed to administer to Christ. They show up twice in Revelation 7; they are misunderstood and under-appreciated.
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"And do not marvel that the flesh of the SAINTS is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"
This is a text book description of the 1st resurrection. Paul lacked saying he was talking about saints.
Most rapturists leave before the 6th trumpet, before the day of the Lord, before the cataclysmic attack. All the examples you gave were for the 7th trumpet. You must be in the group that thinks you will be resurrected with the saints, that you are first fruits? That's a big difference compared to being removed by Jesus prior to Jesus and the beast army wrecking the earth with a curse.
The olden Christian's didn't know too much better than today. In my career as a Christian, I have gotten many meanings wrong because I wanted it to fit. Then, after frustration, you get the answer.
-Look who the 5th seal saints were told to wait for before He judges the earth. Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 11:7
Revelation 7:1-8 occurs before the six trumpet, before the day of the Lord, when the 144,000 saints are sealed. Continuing, Revelation 7:9-15, where now it's the seventh trumpet, Revelation 11:15, and the same sealed saints have been resurrected, and are now standing in heaven. We know it's the saints because we're told they came out of the great tribulation.
(same scene, different angle)
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;*10,000 x 10,000 = 100,000+ remaining = 144,000
Look at the moment the saints are resurrected? Revelation 11:11-12
Look who the 5th seal saints were told to wait for before He judges the earth. Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 11-7
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul was not talking to the general population, he was talking to his kind, first fruits, fellow elite, saints, dead and alive. The scriptures bear this out, who they are, and is always up for debate if you think you are a first fruit.
I agree there is not any scripture that states at any time anyone goes to heaven. And Jesus is the only one who has gone to heaven from where He came John 3:13. Scriptures have been used to create a beautiful picture with the premise of not having to go through the tribulation that is coming but will be taken to heaven, adding a return of Jesus before His second coming.
There are several names Morgan Edwards, Edward Irving, a teenage girl in the lowlands of Scotland named Margaret MacDonald, and more, but spread by John Darby, and C.I. Scofield with the study bible with footnotes helped promote the doctrine. This is a deception I feel that Satan is behind, for those who are still living at the end (my opinion).
Where is in the air? Is it heaven? In Strong's 109 air (The air, lower air we breathe). In Strong's 3772 air Heavens, the visible heavens, the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, the spiritual heavens. The word air 109 was used in 1Thessalonians 4:17 and seems as it says, it's no higher than the clouds. Now, this is a gathering in the air-breathing sky. Jesus will reign on this earth and also the elect, Revelation 11:15 2 Thimothy 2:12 Revelation 5:10 on earth not in heaven and on the new earth Revelation 21:1 Revelation 22:1-5.
No scripture says we are taken up to heaven after we meet Jesus but there is the scripture that says where Jesus goes when He returns. On that day His feet will stand Zechariah 14:4, He will send His angels to gather the elect, after the tribulation, Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27. The earth is round, and the elect will be global when gathered will be in the air going to meet Jesus.
I could say more but it is up to us individually to pray and study for the understanding what is the truth led by the Holy Spirit. Consider the context when you study.
God bless,
RLW
The end-times are strictly 5-6-7 seals and trumpets that unfold within a generation. We're staring down the sixth seal/sixth trumpet, our demise, not past seals that don't apply. The context is off.
There are resurrections, but no man made "rapture", Ezekiel 21:1-4 "both the righteous and the wicked die". Luke 17:34-37 "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together"; they are dead.
Revelation 6:9-11 The fifth seal saints were told when their brethren, the 144,000 Revelation 11:7 who died like they did; that judgment of those on the earth will be done at the seventh trumpet when time is up. They OT saints were told to rest "a little season", which lasts from the fifth seal through the seventh trumpet. At the end of the thousand years, the devil is loosed "a little season" as well, Revelation 20:3 God and satan have balance because the devil is a counterfeiter.
Daniel 9:27 is about the last week of the 70 week prophesy.
Jesus received 3.5 years of power the first half of the week and was cut off in the MIDST of the week. Then, at the sixth trumpet, day of the Lord, comes a beast surprise attack on Israel (both houses), at which time anti-christ places the abomination that makes desolate (nuclear for one, invasion for the other), beginning his 3.5 year reign of terror. At the seventh trumpet, Jesus Messiah is standing on Mount Zion with His army of resurrected saints.
Turkey, by description, is one of 3 nations in the beasts confederacy that gets plucked up by anti-christ. He takes the nations surrounding Israel, and ironically, mirroring the 'greater Israel project'.
The fifth trumpet started tribulation
The sixth trumpet starts the great tribulation.
The seventh trumpet Jesus, returns to destroy the sixth trumpet army.
Is there scripture outside Revelation that confirms an exact 1000 years? The answer is no. Are there false teachers out there? The answer is yes, there are many, 1 John 4:1. Are there scriptures that say the Son of God will reign on earth? The answer is yes. Psalm 2:6-9 Psalm 22:27-31 Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 9:6-7 Isaiah 24:21-23 Jeremiah 23:5 Ezekiel 20:33-44 Ezekiel 39:21-29 Zechariah 2:10-13 Zechariah 8:2-3 Zechariah 14:1-9 Matthew 19:28 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 20:4 and more.
Is there any scripture that says people will go to or reign in heaven? The answer is no. Are there scriptures that say the elect will reign with Jesus on earth? The answer is yes. Daniel 7:27 2 Timothy 2:11-13 Revelation 5:10. Are there scriptures that describe how things change after Jesus returns? The answer is yes. Zechariah 8:4 Isaiah 11 Isaiah 60:15 Isaiah 65:18-25. These people will be alive on the second coming of Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live longer if they choose to obey God.
Are there things that have not been revealed to us? The answer is, yes? Jesus will return and set up the kingdom here on earth and He will put all enemies under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25. Will death still be during the time Jesus is ruling? The answer is yes. The purpose is to fulfill the rest of the scriptures with Jesus, Israel, the Gentiles, and creation that has not yet been fulfilled.
The only scripture that gives us 1000 years is Revelation, but many scriptures tell us the kingdom will be set up on earth. We have these, Numbers 14:21 Psalms 115:16 Micah 4:1-3 Matthew 5:5 Matthew 6:10. Not to debate, with the time it will take I cannot say the 1000 years are false.
God bless,
RLW
For those that are interested would find a light to know some simple hidden truths, like the earthquake in Revelation 6:12 is the same earthquake described in Revelation 11:13. You would know that if you've taken the time to think it through. Nothing is handed to you, except maybe that one.
If I can't exchange prophetic thoughts in this prophetic time, then my time here will be very limited.
after death,: Matthew 17:1-3, Luke 7:12-16, Luke 8:49-56, John 11:21-45, Matthew 27:50-54, Luke 16:22-31, John 21:14, Acts 3:15, Acts 4:10, Mark 12:25,26,27, Luke 24:46, John 5:12, John 5:25, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 2:24, 1 Peter 4:5, Revelation 1:5, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 14:9-20, 1 Corinthians 15:20,21, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 14:9, Matthew 22:32, Isaiah 26:19,
Hebrews 11:35, Revelation 20, 2 Esdras 2:16, Hebrews 6:2, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 11:4, Hebrews 13:20, Revelation 11:18,
Hopefully these are helpful.
Sorry that no one responded to your question. If your wife is a Christian believer, she will be with all believers in heaven.
Man translated the bible, man has beliefs of his own; often, using the word being translated to fit His belief.
Why did the translators translate the Greek word hades (sheol in Hebrew) half the time GRAVE and half the time HELL, when the same word is being translated.
Revelation 1:18 ....I (Christ) have the keys of hell (HADES) and death.
1 Corinthians 15:55 ... O grave (HADES), where is thy victory.
The same Greek word translated two ways.
The translators couldn't translate hades as hell in 1 Corinthians 15:55 because Christ has victory over hell (hades).
Christ has VICTORY over DEATH and THE GRAVE, keys (VICTORY) of the GRAVE (mistranslated hell) and DEATH.
These keys and this victory is Christ RESURRECTION.
John 11:25 .... I am the resurrection ...... Keys (victory) of DEATH and the GRAVE
The same translators translated the Greek word aion to mean eternally or everlasting or for ever and ever, when it aion should have been translated AGE.
Revelation 11:15 ....and he shall reign forever and ever...should be translated, he shall reign for the AGE of the AGES.
We know this is correct because 1 Corinthians 15:24 says when he has subdued all thing to himself he will turn the kingdom back to the Father, so he has to reign for the AGE OF AGES and not for ever and ever.
I agree anytime we study the Bible we need to keep in mind how our fleshly mind works. For most of our life, we function with our subconscious mind with little to no thought at all. We have programmed our minds with traditions, teaching, and things we learn by what we see and do.
Preconceived ideas imprinted in our minds and when we read or hear a reading a picture automatically pops in our mind and it is two steps ahead of what we are reading, seeing, or hearing. A small test, read the following sentence quickly, one time.
Mary had little lamb its fleece white snow everywhere Mary the lamb sure to go.
Did you fill in the missing words unwillingly or did you stumble trying to read it because you have heard it so many times? I know this is not biblical but it could be if it helps study. It might not be we have made up our mind, it is more like our mind made it up own its own unless we can with prayer and consciously clear our mind.
Sorry, I got wordy, love reading yours and Mishael's posts, instead of contentious I would use a saying that started near to where you live, from medieval jousts, you wear your heart on your sleeve.
God bless,
RLW
There are several opinions on this, we know Satan was the first to rebel, the first to sin, a murderer, and is the father of lies ( John 8:44). We see in Isaiah 14 God said, take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, many take vs. 12 O Lucifer son of the morning as being Satan describing his casting out.
The word Lucifer, the morning star is another word for the planet Venus, Latin roots lux (light) and ferre (to carry) it is its brightest right before sunrise. It is also called a day star because it can be seen in the daytime.
We see in ( Ezekiel 28:12-19) Is a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, where the description of Satan is taken. In ( Job 1) and ( Job 2) " the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord" (angels) Satan showed up. So at this time Satan still had access to heaven. In ( Luke 10:18) Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Whether past or future? Whether it was his ranking or permanent?
Now in ( Revelation 12:7-17) and Revelation 13:1-2), the war in heaven where the red dragon and his angels are cast out into the earth. In verse 8 there is no more place for them in heaven. In verse 12 they are rejoicing in heaven and the warning, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth" because Satan knows he only has a short time.
My understanding, Revelation 12 starts the great tribulation when Satan is permanently cast down with no more access to heaven and gives his power seat and great authority to the beast. Revelation 12, if you look at the Greek it is Satan standing on the sand of the sea when the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. ( Revelation 9:11) ( Revelation 11:7) ( Revelation 17:8).
May this help your study, you can use, bible simple search KJV, just type in to edge, google, yahoo or whatever search you use, also this site. Type in devil, Satan, and it will pull all scripture that contains these words you can study.
God bless,
RLW
We see this is after the thousand years when Satan is released from the bottomless pit and goes out to deceive the nations. The army is as the sands of the sea and they surround the camp of the saints and Jerusalem. I feel the whole earth will be consumed, as we read in ( Malachi 4:1-3).
We see in verse 10 Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are and then in verse 11 God sitting on the great white throne and heaven and earth fled away from His face. Then He makes all new.
God bless,
RLW
############## families of above armies....##### what happens to these people
Rev. 21:1....new heaven and earth...
Thanks much
Hey Karl my understanding is, may someone else have another view. John was given a vision of the new earth and where we will be, and in verse 10 we are told the time is at hand. Our time on this earth is short like in ( James 4:14), and we may not be here tomorrow and at death that's it, the door is shut there is no redemption after death. The righteous will still be righteous and the wicked will still be wicked. Verse 11 is a warning and a call for those that have not repented and excepted Jesus as their savior and time is running out.
We are all naturally unjust, and filthy because of sin in us, some of us have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. A righteous man is only righteous by the righteousness of Jesus. After the thousand years and judgment, only the righteous and holy will walk through those gates into the New Jerusalem, and verses 11 and 15 are those outside that are cast into the lake of fire, as we see in ( Revelation 21:8).
Dogs were not looked on as we look at them today, they were mostly wild cruel unclean filthy animals highly disliked, Jesus associated a woman of Canaan with dogs, but nothing unclean will enter the city. We have a choice, eternity with God and Jesus in beautiful new earth or the lake of fire.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks much