Discuss Revelation 14 Page 4

It is taking a lifetime for God that direct me too understanding His Word. The Church Age is coming to an end.. The 144k are Jewish make virgins, keep alive supernaturally by God in the wilderness, after the A/C makes his full attack on the nation of Israel, during the middle of the Great Tribulation. They will know that Jesus is the Messiah and they will be sent all over the world to save any who will hear and believe. They will be martyred by decapitation, as will any who will not accept the evil one as god. Their souls will be under the alter til Jesus comes with His bride to the earth. Now, the most important thing to know... you can do nothing to save yourself and without the blood of Christ applied to your heart, no one can be saved. Rest in Him.. He did it all... the Word of His patience... believe and obey... that is all... What a mighty God to have made such a plan/gift to Save us!!!

Sister GiGi, they are complete opposites of the doctrines of man. Does the doctrines of the brick and mortar church teach the saints are going to judge the world. No, they teach when you die you either go to heaven or to hell. You, yourself in a new location. You are not going to be yourself, but a new creation in Christ Jesus. Man does not want to lose his own identity ( Matthew 16:25) and become the IMAGE of CHRIST. No greater love has a man than to die for his brother, Christ died for you, you have to die for Christ. This the first death ( Revelation 14:13).

John 17:21-24

Hi Gina,

I thought that someone would have responded to your post by now. Sorry, the Bible calls the seventh day the Sabbath. Genesis 2:3.

The believers in the Old Testament kept the 7th day Sabbath beginning what we call Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. In the beginning there were not the current names for the days of the week. So I am not sure we can really know exactly which was the seventh day in the earliest times. At one point, someone created a calendar, and determined what day was the seventh day according to the calendar. The Israelites were commanded by the Law of Moses (10 commandments) to set the Sabbath aside from working. So, they had to have some calendar to go by for determining the days of the week.

As Christians, we are urged to keep every day as a Sabbath, not to rest from work everyday, but to live it for God. But it is fine for Christians to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath, or Sunday, or any other day of the week as a day of rest and worship. We have such freedom to obey the commandment in its elevated way that Jesus taught His disciples and then they passed it on to their congregations. ( Colossians 2:16)

I Hope this helps you. Looking forward to your reply.

English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.

How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.

Is Saturday the Sabbath Day?

Amen Brother Jesse!

Hi Rick,

Yes indeed. There's a good message you are sharing here. I think Jonah could also be included in this. God says you're going to Ninevah and Jonah says nope, I'm going the other way. Jonah was exercising his free-will. But isn't it amazing for the believer in Christ that every time we try and do things "our way," they don't quite seem to work out as planned? I like your paraphrase using the word "dude."

Hi Brother Jesse,

Thank you for clarifying your beliefs on Salvation.

Yes, I too believe we are in agreement, that the entire salvation process, in finality, is dependent on God forgiving us!

Also, as you say, adoption of "the Christ centered message" remains our only roadmap to victory!

God Bless.

God Bless.

Hi Jesse Mans mental accent to the truth of walking by the spirit is mans five senses mind saying I'll do it my way, but we will know them by there spiritual fruit. When naamen in the old testament Got delivered of leprosy if he would have dipped in Jordan 6 times no deal the man of God said seven. Another example when jesus Christ told Peter to let down your nets for a drought Peter said look dude I'm a fisherman you preach but to appease you I'll let down a net, the grace is they still got the fish.

Brother Dan, Amen!

As you say, salvation should never be taken likely. I guess it would have been better for me to say "man-made" formula instead of just formula. Yes, the bible clearly teaches us what is required for salvation. I believe I have a pretty thorough understanding of the entire salvation process. There isn't anything you just said that I would disagree with. Would you agree with me if I said that the entire salvation process is all of God, not man?

The "special formula" that I speak of, and please accept my apology for not wording it differently, but I've heard so many different answers to the question of how does one obtain salvation. I'm speaking of man-made formulas. I'm sure you've heard a few of those over the years?

Man comes up with so many different ways on how to be saved that are not biblically correct. And these formulas are all human formulas that have nothing to do with the Spirit of God doing the work. As long as the gospel message of salvation is Christ centered, and not man centered, I think one would do well in sharing that message.

If I'm asked what is required for salvation, I don't feel I would be in the wrong by telling that person that they need to receive Christ. They need to be born of His Spirit.



Thanks for the blessing. You also have a blessed day in Christ Jesus!

Thank you for the kind and understanding words.

I agree with you in that we can be pressured into "appeasing" the wishes of others that love us and want us to be saved.

We may differ a little in our thoughts in how a call to Christ for salvation yields results. I made a request for Christ for His saving grace at the age of 12, no idea what I was asking Him to provide. No guidance was given by the church, just congratulations on being saved.

I am so thankful God have me life to learn just what receiving His salvation involved and what my heart had to feel for this salvation to actually affect me and my life.

My second appeal to Christ that I receive His salvation had an immediate effect on my internal being. No waiting.

Christ will not go where He is not invited with heartfelt sincerity and desire for Him to enter. Once invited with a pleading spirit He will enter your being and provide the gift of the Spirit.

The key is our desire being expressed with sincerity. To me, it seems we both lacked sincerity on our first asking of Christ for His giving us salvation.

Paul was certainly set aside by God at his conception for the purpose God had planned for him. So we're others such as Samuel and John the Baptizer. Others even today.

I firmly believe the most effective tool in the work for Christ is a person that has experienced the opposite of God's expectations of us in our lives. Thus, Paul was truly prepared for his calling by Christ. Actually twice; initially prepared by his education to refute religious opposition and then by his actions against Christians.

Paul's salvation was instantaneous. He just had a learning curve before Christ could use him.

May God grant you a blessed day my fellow Christian.

Bill

Brother Jesse,

You state: "I don't believe there's any special formula for salvation other than surrendering to Christ and receiving His Spirit."

Respectfully, I think there is more to it than you expressed, and I believe Jesus does have "a special formula", and it is outlined throughout the bible. I say this so others will not take lightly their salvation, and hopefully they will study the scriptures on their own, to satisfy themselves that they are really following God's requirements "per the bible scripture."

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

1 John 5:3

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

John 14:21

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Jesus tells us that he will be our Judge, and he tells us what he will be looking for in us in order to enter into the Kingdom: Revelation 22:12-14

God Bless.

Amen Brother Jesse!

Bill, Here is part 2:

I don't believe there's any special formula for salvation other than surrendering to Christ and receiving His Spirit. It was at the point that He placed His Spirit inside me that my salvation took place. Personally, I don't like to use the word accept because the bible never says to accept Him but to receive Him. For me, to accept just means that I mentally agree with what He did for me. I have to receive Him.

I agree that growth takes time. It's a lifelong process. A person has to remain in God's word and be in submission to Him for there to be any growth. Saying we are a follower of Christ is one thing. Actually following Him and being in total submission to Him is another. As for Paul, I believe he was already set apart for salvation before he was born. I get that from Galatians 1:15.

Paul was around 30-32 years old when he had the experience on the Damascus road. God already set him apart for salvation from his mother's womb, but it wasn't until Paul was on the road to Damascus that God actually saved him. So it wasn't immediate for Paul even though God had already planned in due time to save him.

Paul didn't ask to be saved. He was on his was to have more Christians put to death. He says but when it pleased God, meaning the exact moment that God had planned. And Paul says he was separated from his mother's womb. So God already had a plan for Paul while he was still in the womb. For 30-32 years, he was carrying on in his sinful acts until one day God says "times up," and Jesus intervened.

I find it to be true with most, if not everyone that gets saved, is that we're on our own journey and He intervenes and cuts us off, stops us dead in our tracks, and points us in His direction.

Brother, thank you so much for reading my post. I truly respect your thoughts and the things you have to share. Sometimes we word things differently but often say the same thing. Thank you also for asking for clarification on what I said. God Bless!

Hello Bill,

Here is what I believe about immediate salvation. I believe that salvation takes place the moment that the Spirit of Christ enters into our spirit. Without His Spirit, there is no salvation. Romans 10:13 says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I believe that to be a promise that if we call upon Him to have mercy on us that He will at some point save us. I can't say it is immediate because only the Lord knows our hearts. But the promise that He will is still there. It's as it is a guarantee.

We are also told in Romans 8:9 that if we do not have the Spirit of God in us, we do not belong to Him. In other words, without His Spirit in us, there is no salvation that took place. So as far as when salvation takes place, I believe it is when His Spirit enters into our spirit. That's is when I believe that salvation takes place.

What I mean by saying for some it is immediate, and for others it could take a while, and it is something that you yourself touched on when you said if it is sincere and spiritually made it is immediate. I completely agree with you on that, amen! I can say that that was the case for me. I said a so called "sinners prayer" years before I actually received Christ. It wasn't sincere. I did it in front of my mother and her evangelist friend in order to please my mother, not because I wanted to surrender to Christ. There was no immediate salvation there at that time for me, even though I called upon the name of the Lord. He had to prepare my heart and it took years before I was ready to receive Him and make Him the Lord of my life.

I have a little more to say but am running out of space here. I am going to try and finish this up in a second post. I just wanted to clarify what I was saying. I don't see you as being argumentative at all. I'll send more as a (Part 2).

I question your statement. " It doesn't say that this salvation is immediate. But the promise is still there. Some get saved immediately, and for others it could take a while".

Christ told the thief on the cross there would be no delay in entering paradise. To me, this is immediate salvation.

If the acceptance of Christ is sincere and spiritually made, salvation is immediate. It is growth and understanding of what salvation means in your life that takes time. Reference the scriptures of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10:44-48. Is this not salvation immediately after hearing Peter?

Did Paul not receive his salvation on the road to Damascus? I believe he did but required a long period of learning before setting out on his Christ-given mission.

No intention of starting an argument, just asking if salvation is instantaneous or a long journey after accepting Christ as Lord and savior.

Brother in christ,

Bill

WOW!!!

Great post.

My situation in accepting Christ as my savior the first time, (yes, I accepted Him more properly later in life), at the age of 12 is similar to yours. It was basically a revival preacher and his prop that did it along with the pressure of the congregation "to do what is right".

The prop, a homemade wooden cross with a hole in its center where the two pieces of wood crossed. The minister was speaking of how the cross cleaned a soul of sin, he called sin "a dark red stain" on the soul. Next, he brought a glass from beneath the pulpit, as I am remembering, filled with some liquid that was red. He said this represented my soul, stained with all my sins. He set the glass on the pulpit, picked up the cross, and placed a basting bulb behind and through the hole in the cross. He then used one hand to pick up the glass and bring it in front of the cross, in front of the hole and bulb stem. As he again told of how the cross could cleanse my soul of the sin inside it, he squeezed the bulb, and some liquid squirted into the glass. The glass immediately became clear.

Impressive to a 12-year-old and his friend. We went forward at the invitation, mainly bewitched by the chemical demonstration. We were baptized.

Unfortunately, we were not taken under the wings of the church and never received guidance as how to actually become a Christian. We floundered with only the Sunday School class to guide us.

In actuality, I floundered for 50 years! Many denominations and even more churches with little instruction on living and believing the Christian life.

Finally, I found a church that encouraged me in living a Christian life. I was encouraged to study scripture and not to just accept what others say it means. My Christian life is now growing.

We are victims of well-meaning pastors. They count the baptisms and neglect the teaching required.

KEEP PRAYING AND BELIEVE CHRIST WILL HELP - HE WILL!!

Praying this will help you in your quest to ease your soul and guide you

Yes Luoma , you are right . Remember the plagues in Egypt ? All those terrible things that God brought onto the Egyptians ? The one before last , the thick darkness ? That must have been terrifying ! What happened to the Israelites then ? They had light in all their dwellings ! Christ is our light and we can be sure that God knows how to protect and provide for His own . Stay strong and the reward will be overwhelmingly awesome ! Much love in Christ .

We have to keep the faith that God will show us and lead us the right way and not to take that mark, that's when the Holy Spirit will speak through us, & we have to let him do it, What's going to be hard is not being able to buy, trade, or sell. Put food up in your cabinets, and save gold medals to trade for food. God always shows us a way out, we can depend on that, Don't take the mark

Lina, may God's favour continue to shine upon you.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he SUFFERED.

We bear the same cross and walk the same path to Calvary.

1 Corinthians 15:31 ...We DIE daily..

Romans 6:6 ...our old man was crucified with him .....

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nonetheless I LIVE, yet not I, but Christ LIVETH IN ME: and the life I now live IN THE FLESH I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery ...CHRIST IN US .....

GBU

Thank you BELOVED . It's alright. It made me so much stronger. It truly prepared me for the world today. I know without any doubt that I MUST KEEP GOD IN THE FOREFRONT OF MY LIKE. I MUST continue to be the CALLED OUT, THE SET APART one that HE wants me to be. However, that human side of me still comes in to play. My desires to be LOVED by others even my own children . The wantingness to be loved by a husband or just mere companionship of others. The loneliness is hard at times. I know I'm never alone, but physically I am. Nonetheless, I must go on in Christ Jesus name. My BLESSINGS come each NEW day I am able to see the 4 walls of my home and not the 4 walls of my grave. I don't get a call that a loved one has departed. My children and grandchildren are doing fine. My mother is still yet alive...etc. I AM STILL BLESSED. I MUST learn NOT to be as the children of Israel and murmur or complain. The MIST HIGH GOD knows what HE'S doing in my life. I should sit back and follow HIS lead. Take the I out of SIN and replace it with O for The SON. Take i totally out of the equation and I'll be much much better. Thank you again for your response. MAY THE MOST HIGH GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WITH PEACE, LOVE, AND TOTAL PROTECTION.

Hi Lina. I'm sorry you had to grow up in that environment. It's truly sad when parents give preference to one or more of their children and physically, mentally, spiritually abandon the others.

Take heart. Revelations 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes....

because they don't know how to walk in the ways of God for themselves. Similarly, there comes a time in every Christian's life when he has to learn to do things for himself. David said, "Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child" ( Ps. 131:2).

In a church I served, there were two older ladies who were spiritual babies. Even though they had been saved for a long time and were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, they were the biggest babies in our church. They needed a lot of attention and would miss church on Sunday just so I would visit them on Monday!

Christians ought to grow up enough so that they don't always need someone to visit them, pump them up, pray for them, and feed them. They need to grow up so they can help somebody else.

EPHESIANS 4:14. CHILDHOOD

14 That we henceforth be no more children.

Children can be a handful! They are often curious and like to get into things. One time I came in with a sack and put it on the kitchen table. In no time at all, one of my young granddaughters was in the sack, wanting to know what was in it. Spiritually immature children get into things too. They poke their noses in places where they shouldn't. They are always in other people's business. Another thing about children is that they have never learned the value of silence.

Sometimes people say something hurtful and afterward say, "Oh, I was only joking." No, they weren't! They were being mean and hurtful with their words and then were trying to cover it up by saying it was a joke. Proverbs 12:18 (NIV) says, "Reckless words pierce like the sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing." Psalm 141:3 says, "Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips." We need to watch what comes out of our mouth. Our words should lift others up, not tear them down ( Eph. 4:29).

We were wounded and needed help. Proverb 18:14, Is. 53:5. Be quick to forgive yourself.

Beloved, you need to let this go. Forgiving ourselves is mandatory. :) I read this years ago and kept it. Maybe it was for you. You were a baby Christian when that happened.

Ephesians 4:11-15

Did you notice in verse 15, Paul tells the Christians in Ephesus to "grow up into him in all things? Evidently, Paul didn't think that the Church at Ephesus had grown up yet. He also said in verse 13, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT MAN."

In The Amplified Bible, this phrase is translated, "that we might arrive at really mature manhood." In these verses, Paul is encouraging us to reach spiritual maturity. He is encouraging us to grow up spiritually.

Throughout the New Testament, we see a striking similarity between spiritual and physical development. In fact, there are three stages of spiritual development that correspond to physical development. They are: babyhood, childhood, and manhood.

Even though a person can be a born-again Christian for many years, he can still be in either the babyhood or childhood stage of development in certain areas of his life. As you take a look at each stage of spiritual development, you may see where you need to grow in certain areas.

BABYHOOD

1 PETER 2:2. As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

Newborn babies require a lot of work.

In the same way, you can't expect young Christians to do for themselves. You need to follow up with them after they first come to your church and encourage them to return, or at least to get involved in another good church. They don't understand much about the things of God, so you have to spend a lot of time teaching and counseling them.

They'll come crying on your shoulder about this, that, or the other thing. They don't have a lot of confidence in their own prayers, so they'll ask everyone they see to pray about the same thing over and over again. You have to carry them, so to speak, because

Bless your heart beloved. I too remember when I got baptised. I was 12 years old. I knew very well what I was doing. I LOVED going to church. I decided to get baptised at twelve because it was the first time Jesus did his first teaching in the Synagogue. No family was there for me. When the Deacon took us home I told my mama. I thought they would be proud of me, but NO.....NOTHING. I just continued to trust in Jesus and be fearful of disobedience.

I read your reply to Adam. I was just the opposite of you. I tried loving my family members ALL my life, but NOTHING. No matter what I did or said they just didn't love me like the others. This includes my parents, grandparents, aunt, uncles, cousins. I DIDN'T FIT IN ANYWHERE. I saw them going to church Praising God, PRAYING before bedtime, PRAYING over our meals, everything a Christian would do. Yet, I was still always on the outside. They cared and loved outside people more than me. Yes, they did for me. They protected me. They did as minimal as possible for me. I just don't know to this day why I was singled out. They are resting in The Lord now. All except my mother and her brother are gone. However, that same spirit still is yet here with everyone.

Dgjot,

Something that sort of stood out to me was where you said that "You just had to take God/Jesus at their word." What I am understanding is that you were expecting some sort of grand experience after calling upon the Lord to save you, and when that didn't happen, you decided to just trust that the Lord would do what He said He would. That's about all we can do is take Him at His word and trust in His promises.

I received Christ almost 25 years ago. There was nothing spectacular as far as experience goes. But like you say, I had to take the Lord at His word. Romans 10:13 says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, not might be, but will be.

But with that, let me share this with you. It doesn't say that this salvation is immediate. But the promise is still there. Some get saved immediately, and for others it could take a while. You see, the Lord knows our heart. He knows if and when we are ready to completely surrender our life to Him. He prepares our heart until we are ready to turn from our ways and make Him the Lord of our life.

As far as the incident you have been agonizing over for 48 years, the only advice I can offer you is to let it go. 1 John 1:9 says, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If you've asked the Lord for forgiveness, you need to trust that He has forgiven you. He is a faithful and just Lord.

And you are very welcome for what I shared with you on Hebrews 10:26. God Bless!!!

We're a work in progress, sometimes in life I've been tired emotionally, physically, mentally & spiritually. Love isn't always a feeling, it's choices. When we show compassion towards people (made in GOD's image), that's love towards GOD. Scripture examples noted above. Thanks for trusting us with the depth of truth of what you were feeling & experienced, even now.

James 5:16, 1 John 1:9

The Lord knows your heart and forgives but you must also forgive yourself then shall you be free..... I will say a prayer for The Lord to help you with strength in letting it go..... Peace....