Discuss Revelation 14 Page 6

Laurel,

This scripture is referring to the peoples and specifically the leadership of Mystery Babylon before the're mortally attacked. So, before the day of the Lord, when God allows the attack, the elect 144K church are sealed from death for 42 months, then, at the end of their testimony the same elect are resurrected up, Revelation 11:7-11. That's the totality of the firstfruit resurrection ( Revelation 14:4) hand picked by God himself. All the elect don't die with so many spread out. No one is raptured (not Bible doctrine) or resurrected, or given divine treatment until the last trumpet.

What is so bad about being part of the 2nd resurrection?

Bro Barney,

Yes, knowing the time stamps are crucial because the text skips back and forth. You said "There are many more passages that point to the church being raptured up before the tribulation period."

Can you show me in scripture where rapture happens before tribulation? Don't you mean before the great tribulation, before Jesus comes like a thief?

The 144K sealed are the church that is resurrected, depicted standing before the alter as redeemed from the earth. Show me where anyone else besides the 144K are resurrected. Who are like these? Revelation 14:1-5

Revelation 7:13-14

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

God bless you Barney

Earl,

John has no need to prophesy after leaving his body of flesh, which occurs at the seventh trumpet for the elect, when God's mystery is over. It is the resurrected one hundred forty thousand standing on Mount Zion with Jesus Messiah ( Revelation 14:1).

It is the one hundred forty four thousand who are tasked in prophesying between the sixth and seventh trumpets. Jesus Christ received a 42 month ministry, and so do the elect ( Revelation 7).

I'm talking about the physically manifested, end-time firsfruits of Jesus Christ. The Church. The Bride. The two witnesses are much more special than meets the eye. In fact you could devote a lifetime to Sunday school, and never uncover the clews of who they are. They are the elite set, one hundred forty four thousand gleaned from Israel, the remnant who after battling satan, are resurrected into Christ's army. Only these elect qualify ( Revelation 14:4) to be firstfruits for the thousand years.

However, due to above corresponding, and conflicting scriptures, any opinion falls inconclusive. The gut feeling says everyone else awaits second entry; all 108 billion souls that ever lived. What do we care, we'll be sleeping.

What makes you think that anyone other than the first fruits are first fruits?

( Revelation 14:3-5)

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

It is only the one hundred forty four thousand, resurrected and standing at the throne of God.

The rest of the dead slept till the second resurrection.

BUT WAIT, were not finished, or without contradiction:

( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Did all of the one hundred forty four thousand die, or did some take cover? vs 17 says those alive will be caught up with the dead to meet the Lord in the air. I tend to believe from the great number of sealed Israelites that some must remain alive. After all, they are witnesses to anti-christ's exploits, and need to see it to the end. Per usual, looking into the translation, etymology would iron matters out.

I will always pray to you God for the sake of the human race in these perilous times, signs in the Heavens have shown me that powerful angels are very angry with the sinful ways so many have forgotten Lord God almighty and his son Jesus Christ. We must all seek the light of Gods love before darkness consumes the earth! Babylon the great shall soon fall (America) and all those who continue to laugh and ridicule Gods chosen acolytes who shall be lifted into Heaven shall say in horror Dear God What Have We Done? I forgive my enemies praying that God can forgive them too.

Thank you again Glenn. I understand that you dislike pursuing this 'debate', so you can end it whenever you wish. On the contrary, I love such 'debates': I believe this type of exchange helps us to study the Scriptures more closely, to understand the others' points of view, & to re-check or revise one's own understanding, if required. And this Christian Site, amongst very few out there, gives us this opportunity to have such exchanges, if not only for our benefit, but for others wanting further light on the matter.

Briefly, to answer your last comment: the way the Bible speaks about creation & that God rested after He completed His Works, is simply just that: a special day different from His other six days of creating & so it was set apart (sanctified) as that special day. To this special day, God had, with His other commandments, prescribed to His special chosen people, Israel. Was it given to anyone else? No. And not only did the Gentiles not receive any commandment from God, neither was the Church under any compulsion to be brought under them (i.e. the Gentiles didn't have to become Jews first before receiving Christ's salvation).

As well, to note, I've never claimed Sunday to be the new Sabbath. Sunday was simply a day chosen by the NT Church to worship God through His Son & not connected to the Sabbath (rest day). If they chose any other day, I would easily comply, even if it was a Saturday. Or even if my Fellowship changed it to a Wednesday, that too would be fine. To me, Sunday is not Sabbath - just an ordinary day set aside to worship the Lord in fellowship with His children. And the coming Antichrist will demand worship of him, not necessarily on a Sunday as no Scripture indicates or supports that theory. Thank you for your time. God bless.

Talk about the OT prophets to see where we stand. The prophets spent much time describing the sixth trumpet, "day of the Lord", one hour battle, than any other trumpet. Our future is of catastrophic destruction. Our leaders have aligned their working with scripture to bring about our demise. How is it no one recognizes America for who she is, from what she's done, or its judgment?

( Ezekiel 33:6)

Thank you brother Dan for providing the Scripture: Romans 11:13-16. I understand that you see from these verses that both the "Israelites & Gentiles are subject to the same 10 commandments".

If we read the whole passage, we see Paul referring to the "election of grace" (v 5), whereby those Jews, with blinded eyes, deaf ears, & a spirit of slumber, failed to take hold of God's Grace & rested on their works (which by inference is to the Law of Works) to obtain salvation. And through their fall & removal from the olive tree, those of believing Israel, including believing Gentiles were grafted into that natural tree, which represents those whom the Lord regards as His Own (by election), those who have taken hold of God's Grace in salvation.

You're seeing this grafting in of the Gentiles with the believing Jews as a sanction from God that all be brought under the Law or to obey it. I see the opposite: I see the election of Grace at work, whereby those who were cut out from the tree because of their reliance on the Law to save them, have given up their privileged position to those who have not relied upon the Law to save them, but have submitted themselves to the Grace of God for His salvation.

And if our salvation (for both Jew & Gentile) is dependent on God's Grace, then it is no more of works. As Paul said in the same chapter, verse 6: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." And this work that he was referring to was Israel's dependence of the working (fulfilling) of the Law towards their salvation. And to this, God's Grace was in opposition, for salvation cannot come by appealing to & relying upon the Law of Works. If salvation then is by Grace alone (which I know you believe), why refer to a Law that only leads to death when the new Law of the life-giving Spirit in us sets us free from the Law of sin & death? And Galatians 3:21.

Hi Chris , this is going just where I thought it would go. A debate. Not interested . However I will say this much about your first point. How you can twist the original creation of the Sabbath as a commandment for Israel is behond me. In the garden of edan there was no Israel nation , nor was it created for many years to come and even then the Israel nation was created to be a example of carrying God's Truths to the world. They then became God's chosen people with special protection , but then they lost that protection and now anyone who is in Christ is also of Abram's seed . But this statement only opens up another area of on going discussion back and forth. Like wise I can also deal a counter agreement to other points your made. It would continue to go on and this thread would grow. Like I said earlier I am not interested in a long drawn out debate. Any sincere person who seeks God's will, will find the Truth and then be free. God's word says, you shall know the Truth and it will set you free. I am free. Therefore I sit back in this journey of life and watch Daniel and Revelation fulfill before my eyes. Will anyone else join me. Millions more do also but Jesus made it clear the majority of the world will not. They will be lost. The Mark of the Beast is the next great step this planet will take along with a dramatic down turn in climate events , signs in the sky. This will all support the intuition of the nation wide Sunday law with the end result that both you and I will choose who we will serve. You can stay on you present path and join the world majority to honour Sunday ( who do we honour then ) while still seeking greater understanding or you can join the minority who will honour the Sabbath that was created from day 7 of life as we know it on this planet. You may also say that I will not keep Sunday or Sabbath. However it will not be that simple. Every one will choose. Directly or indirectly they will choose. The wheat will be separated fm the chaff.

Hello Glenn. Thank you again & for the points you shared, which I shall address:

1. True, Genesis 2:2,3 does state that God rested (or, ceased) from all the work which He had made, which implies Sabbath (rest) & that was then given as a commandment for Israel to obey & do likewise.

2. Isaiah chapter 66. You may be directing me to verses 23 & 24. These verses appear to be speaking about the Millennium period or at the creation of the new heavens & earth. In the OT economy, the description given here is 'from month to month and from week to week' (Moons & Sabbaths): that was their understanding. However, if it was a declaration that those who worship God at that future time will do so again on a Sabbath, (which gives a warrant to do so now), then do we also obey the moon cycles which are used to determine the 'feasts'. I'm unsure if any Sabbath-keepers/believers keep those feasts according to the moon's determination. Shouldn't they do so, if the Lord has said so? Are not the Sabbath & the Feasts equally important & incurred equal punishment if not adhered to?

3. Can't comment on that as I believe the 'remembrance' was for Israel to do, as they still do now (as those under the Law).

4. Daniel 7:24,25 is generally attributed to the coming Antichrist. I'm not sure whether his changing of "times & laws" applies to the Sabbath or not. So, the present condemnation of non-Sabbath-keepers (purportedly because of what Constantine ratified in 321 AD) is unjustified, since Daniel speaks of the future. Does that mean that the Antichrist will change 'Sunday worship' to another day, seeing that many Christians already do that now according to early Church practice? Or maybe to a day he chooses for all to worship him?

5. Sorry, can't see it yet: if you could point me in the right direction. If anything, I see a continual departure from the Truths of God's Word, rampant sin, & lukewarmness in the Church.

Blessings.

Scripture connecting Israel and the Gentiles.

Romans 11:16 Context

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches.

Israelites and Gentiles are subject to the the same 10 commandments.

God Bless

hi friend than you. I have discuss the 1o commandments previously because it is the controversy. The antichrist has issues with. But we ought to obey God rather than ma

Hi Chris, my original intent was not to convince you but to see your reaction to the video . I have no right to convince anyone. That is between them and the Lord. I do not engage in long debates just simply try to present my case because I am fully convinced that the video is 100 percent true. Fully convinced because of other reasons in addition to what was stated in the video. However I can finish by stating a few things.

1. When was the Sabbath created, when of course there was no Jewish nation. Created from the seventh day of creation,blessed and set apart forever. That is a simple fact supported by the bible.

2. Will it still be kept in the new world to come, yes Isaiah 66.

3. It is so important that it is the only commandment to start with the word Remember. Why is that ? Almost like the Lord knew we would forget.

4. Why do we keep Sunday and why was it changed? Can,t you hear the answer in Daniel . " he shall think to change the time and law"

5. Finally watch the world wide Sunday law coming in. If you can not see it coming you are not looking in the right direction.

6. As a final note ....." any man who desires to do God's Will , shall know of the doctrine if it be of God or of man." Keep searching and have a desire for Truth and you will become clear on this subject. You must become clear because of the promise God made which I just stated.

Hi Glenn - just responding to you after watching that video. To Charles credit, his knowledge of the Word & of history and his charismatic vibrant manner was quite compelling to watch & I enjoyed what he presented.

Even though his presentation was probably to a group already familiar with his teaching having received more of the background from his other messages, I was intently listening out for those basic elements (i.e. a systematic teaching) to support his position on the keeping of the Law & in particular the Sabbath Day. He came close to it by quoting Ezekiel 20:11-16, suggesting that observance of the Sabbath was a sign, so I became excited hoping for an explanation of how that sign given to Israel was then transposed onto the Gentiles, particularly the Church consisting of both Jew & Gentile. But was left bereft. And the other aspects of his message on the Antichrist, Rome's involvement, etc. were interesting but couldn't be substantiated since the groundwork wasn't dealt with.

So if I had already come with the same understanding as him on this matter, I would have left satisfied & confirmed in my belief. But since I came seeking Scriptures & appropriate exegesis on how that which was given specifically to Israel & none other, came to be conferred upon Gentiles, I received none. Of course, he would have needed to address the specifics of the Covenants & somehow show from Scripture that what was given before did apply post-Cross. And that would have taken some working through & probably outside the parameter of that message.

So Glenn, thank you for that - I did enjoy listening to Charles, but didn't find my question answered there. Maybe you know of another video that will deal with that fundamental aspect that seems to form a clear division amongst believers. Blessings.

I will cut away that which covers the sin. The heart that only wishes to deceive! The heart deceitful from its youth! How we neglect the inside and make the outside perfect! Are not these the words of our Christ? This heart that will not be faithful in little, how can it be faithful in much! Sin, is the infection that besets us. How can you keep the law? By breaking it? This one , whom you have rejected ,has become the head of the corner! "Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." The grinding will take time, but when it is finished it will be complete! If you do not belong to him, you need not worry, for your destination is confirmed! Repent and be baptized!

Pat,

The US = Mystery Babylon: No other country is close to Sodom and Gomorrah than America.

The Beast = Russia: No other country fits the description like Russia. The characteristics of the beast shouts Russia:

1) "More stout than his fellows". Russia has 11 time zones ( Daniel 7:20).

2) He is the 8th and is of the 7. Russia is, was the 8th G8 member and is of the G7 ( Revelation 17:20).

3) In 1991 the USSR suffered a "deadly wound", which has been healed into the Russian Federation. The people will marvel at Russia ( Revelation 13:3).

4) Even though God has always held back Esau (Russia), he will now bring Esau forth with his northern army to destroy Jacob (US/NATO/Israel) ( Ezekiel 38:4).

5) Obadiah states Esau (Russia) annihilated Jacob (US/Israel) then engaged in destruction beyond Babylon with an "evil thought" ( Ezekiel 38:10), by taking 3 allies from his own camp.

6) Esau pounds Jacob so badly that the earth is knocked off its axis and wobbles back and forth like a drunkard ( Isaiah 24:20).

7) The last time Esau and Jacob met up was on the trail, Genesis 33. Jacob was afraid Esau would kill him for stealing his birthright, but instead they exchanged gifts and parted ways.



8) Esau will make Jacob lean this time around ( Isaiah 24:1-16).

Thank you Pat. I did read through all the passages you suggested. I see that you've taken this discussion to the 'beast', the Antichrist, & left off the Ten Commandments.

I've considered your analysis of the Scriptures you gave but I remain mystified as to how you have placed America in there. If one wanted to place a country as the Antichrist, could there not be many other countries that would fit the bill? What do you see in America that is different from the rest (e.g. the U.K., Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, etc.)? Don't these other countries also have apostasy, laws/courts/parliaments, compulsion to follow prescribed laws, etc.? As far as being forced to worship/recant their faith or be killed, this is already going on in some countries & some religions & fortunately not in America (yet), but no evidence of the beast has surfaced anywhere that I can see. The spirit of Antichrist might be at work all over the world by the workings of Satan, but his revelation has not happened yet.

So, I'm wondering how you have determined this, when the Scriptures don't mention a country, rather, likely a person who sets himself up as God in the temple at Jerusalem demanding worship ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4). And yes, his power & influence would no doubt spread throughout the world. But to place America as the beast, would need a high degree of speculation & would necessarily have to include the possibilities of other nations that behave similarly.

OK. Revelation 13 you can read the entire chapter. Verses 15 - 17 gives the 7 components for the mark of the beast. Verse 15. 1.the image is form this is apostate protestant America. 2. the image speak - American speaks through its legislative law, congress and supreme court. 3. the people are call by force nor choice 4.the people are force to worship 5. the will be killed/persecuted 6. vs 16 cause all to received a mark in their right hand or forehead. force to at act and believe a certain way vs 17 no buying no selling. Only two of the above are left to be enforce. force to worship and be killed/persecuted. Also read revelation 14:9-11 and chapter 18:1-3. Be bless

Hello Pat. I put in that book title on the Web to learn a little more about it & I notice that it is an independent 7th Day Adventist publication. I'm sorry that I don't delve into such materiel as after reading those books, I find that what is written is often against the Truth in Scripture. If you could respond to my comments, if you wish, I would find that much more worthwhile & engaging & in the spirit of this website. Thank you & blessings.

Hi Chris Sabbath and marriage was instituted from creation and these institution are targeted by the devil in these last days. We are to adhere to Gods commandment but the Fourth which is His Sabbath bears his seal. Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD (name) made (creator) heaven and earth (domain) the sea and all that in them. Can't remember the text now but it says from one Sabbath to another shall ALL flesh come before to worship. Glen has pointed you to a youtube video and I also told you to read the book National Sunday Law a very thin book. After doing these let me know your understanding. Be bless.

Thank you Glenn. I will look at it when I get the time & will certainly follow his message with the Word. I'll get back to you, no doubt with some comments.

Thank you Pat, I did go over the Exodus 20 passage you gave. I had to go over it several times, & for the life of me, I can't see "Christ's Name, title and domain" in that passage. I even went to the Hebrew to verify the matter, & even that shows the Name of Yahweh even as verse 10 shows "the LORD thy God". So if there's a Seal in those verses, it isn't evident at all.

Secondly, the Commandments were given to Israel for their explicit direction & obedience. Then what bearing have those commandments have on me, a Gentile? If you feel however, that as a Christian I must then come under the Law that I might then find grace through faith to be accepted of God, then there are ample Scriptures to refute that. But I would also direct you to Acts chapter 15 where this very matter was of great concern. Some were preaching the necessity of circumcision before receiving salvation. Paul, Barnabas, Peter & James spoke on this. The final word was that Gentiles were not required to be circumcised nor to come under the Law (verses 23 to 31), but had to be careful on those parts of the commandments that pertained to eating food offered to idols, consuming blood & fornication. But verse 24 "to be circumcised or keep the Law, we gave no such commandment".

Thirdly, the Sabbath was to be observed by Israel as a day of rest, even as God rested from His Works - thus He hallowed it (made it a holy day, sanctified, set it apart). It was just a day of rest & given for possibly the following reasons: for Israel to trust Him to provide for that day; to rest the body from a working week of six days; to focus on the Lord & not be overcome with work & life's distractions. Indeed, both the Decalogue (including Sabbath) & circumcision marked out Israel as God's peculiar people, which no other nation received.

Fourthly, to take this 4th Commandment & then give it a special status above the other nine, even to implying it as the seal of God rather than from the Holy Spirit, is disturbing. GBU.

Hi Chris. Ok Read Exodus 20: 8-11. in reference to the seal of God. Verse 11 bears the seal of God. It shows Christ's name, title and domain (Jesus or Lord, creator and heaven and earth). Just like a Justice of the peace. His/seal bears the name, title and district, parish or state. Revelation 14:9-11. The mark of the beast is the changing of God's Sabbath to Sunday by the beast power, Rome. It actually is the very thing they claim shows their authority is higher than that of God's word. Why does God tell us such terrible things will happen to those who receive this mark? God does not punish someone for breaking a law that he honestly knows nothing about, and never has a chance to learn about. The final test will be set up with two choices; obey God and keep His 7th Day Sabbath, be persecuted by man and be saved or obey man-made laws to force people to keep Sunday and receive the seven last plaques and be loss. Get a hold of this book National Sunday Law and read prayerfully. Stay bless and be bless.

Hello Chris, I can point you in different directions and they all lead to a world wide Sunday law. However I will make it simple and if this video does not make you think . What would? Try watching on YouTube...Charlie's d brooks the mark of the beast.....1 hr 10 min of your time with lots of bible references. The first 15 minutes it may not seem to be going anywhere but hang in there. Charles is no relationship to me.

Pat, I checked all those references you shared but couldn't find anything pertaining to the 'future mark of the beast' as associated with those who would worship on a Sunday. The Seal of God as I understand it, is what believers receive by the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13), sealing them as children of God & there doesn't seem to be any reference to Sabbath-keepers. Could you enlighten me further? Thank you.

The mark of the beast is not a literal mark nor chip. It is a choice we have to made. Either for Christ or Satan; God or man Sabbath or Sunday worship.

My dear friend the mark of the best is Sunday observance, however, individual who presently worship on Sunday, DO NOT have the mark of the beast. Individual receive the mark of the beast ONLY after Sunday observance has been set up by Law. You can read Revelation 14:9-12; 13:7; 17:6; 17:9

The mark in the forehead is the seal of God. His 7th day Sabbath. Be blessed. Other texts: Daniel 7: 23 - 25; 13: 1-6

S. Spencer,

Greetings, this site has some of the best NT scripture-smiths around. NT 27 strong.

Salvation to me begins at the seventh trumpet twinkle, with the 144,000 first fruits standing on the hill with Messiah, the Christ. ( Revelation 14:3-4) Please try to account for any souls other than these who are worthy of the first fruit resurrection, lest ( Revelation 20:5)? From your study, what are 2 things Christians should know about salvation?

I'm really surprised at how little of the OT, especially the prophets, are discussed here. They're the foundation, they offer tomorrows clews: Daniel 7:8 being Ezekiel 38:14 (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey) should interest you enough to see what they're talking about.

One thing we can agree on is that we are living in the end-times of Matthew 24, yet no one talks about it.

Revelation 5

Revelation 7

Revelation 11

Revelation 12

Revelation 14

The witnesses are special enough to be the subject of 5 Chapters, and that they're hidden from you until I come along. Just prior to the 6th trumpet ( Revelation 7:1-3), the elect 144,000 are sealed for 3.5 years (42 months) against death. At the end of their testimony, these elect will lay dead in the street for 3.5 days, then taken up in the clouds at the seventh trumpet, second coming of Jesus Christ. Since antichrist is revealed at the start of the sixth trumpet, ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3) the day of the Lord, his 3.5 years expire at the start of the seventh trumpet. The elect die 3.5 days before the seventh trumpet resurrection, while antichrist's time hasn't come yet. This leaves a 3.5 day gap between the tribes being sealed, and the sixth trumpet. For prophesy to be fulfilled, the 144,000 must receive a full 1,260 days of sealed protection.

The tribes are sealed 3.5 days prior to the sixth trumpet, day of the Lord. What will they do in that 3.5 day day window?

( Joel 2:28-31) And it shall come to pass afterward [( Acts 2:17-21) And it shall come to pass in the last days], that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:...

Could this Holy Ghost outpour occur during the 3.5 day "gap" prior to the day of the Lord, so that we, with the elect, should all (flesh) receive the Holy Ghost?

We also have the promise of ( Malachi 4:5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: [between Revelation 6:14 & Revelation 6:12?]