Revelation
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I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9 Acts 24:16 Romans 9:1 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 3:9 Hebrews 13:18.
This is my understanding.
God bless,
RLW
John 3:16-18 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Apart from the work of Jesus Christ, every human is condemned to an eternity in hell ( Revelation 20:15). But God has freely offered the gift of heaven. What determines if a person goes to heaven or hell for eternity is whether that person has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ ( Romans 4; Galatians 3:23-29; Hebrews 11).
Going to hell is the default position of humanity. Going to heaven is the free gift of God's grace, received by faith, offered to all people ( Ephesians 2:1-10). God wants people to be reconciled with Him, so He provided the way ( John 14:6). Every person is invited to go to heaven.
Going to heaven or hell has everything to do with God's act of rescue. When God created the world, everything was very good ( Genesis 1:31). He created humanity in His image. He provided food for them but told them there was one tree from which they were not allowed to eat. They were to trust His provision, follow His commands, remain in close relationship with Him, and experience fullness of life. But they were also free to disobey Him, which would result in death ( Genesis 2:15-17; Romans 6:23).God, I know that I have gone against your ways, that I rightly deserve condemnation. I know that you are loving, merciful, gracious, and just. I believe that you have made reconciliation possible. I believe that Jesus is the only Savior, and I submit to Him as Lord. I believe He is fully God, fully human, lived a perfect life, died on the cross for my sins, and rose from the dead bodily. I believe His sacrifice is sufficient for my sins.
The Bible mentions the Millennium in Revelation 20:4, which describes a thousand-year period that begins after Jesus' Second Coming. The Millennium is also known as the "thousand-year reign of Christ" or the "millennial kingdom".
COME LORD JESUS COME
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More...)
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Read More...)
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
COME LORD JESUS
There are different understandings of this and the difference is based on whether one believes souls are immortal. My understanding is the immortal soul belief came from Greek philosophy, Platonism. This was blended into the Church along with the definition of death meaning separation, the separation of the soul from the body.
My understanding from scripture every part of us is mortal and when we die, we sleep in the dust/grave Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16.
When is a corn plant absent from its seed, it is when it springs forth from its grave of the earth. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 We are sown, we sleep in the grave, Daniel 12:2 Acts 13:36 and until resurrection which there are two, Revelation 20:4-10 and Revelation 20:11-15.
We are sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 We as mortal beings do not put on immortality until we are resurrected being freed from this body of corruption into a glorified body, then we will be present with the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 2:19.
May others give their understanding for you to study for yours.
God bless,
RLW
I am sorry if we do not agree, and sorry for the delayed reply.
My understanding, we have two trees, and two Adams one tree associated with the first Adam and the other with the last Adam. Did God know what the first Adam would do? Yes. Does that mean Adam was not made perfect without sin? No. Everything before the first day of creation until the new earth and the new heaven was and is in God's plan. Can we comprehend that? No. Can we know how God will judge anyone before the law or all the people after the law but never heard the commands of God or of Him sending His Son to die for us? Revelation 20:11-15
Two men walked this earth that did not have an earthly father the first and the last Adam. The first was disobedient and the second was obedient unto death. Three people came into the world without a sinful nature Adam, Eve, and Jesus. There was no sin in the first Adam until he disobeyed God, the curse was not given to him or mankind before Adam disobeyed and sinned.
In Scripture, we are told Jesus was tempted the same as we are, Hebrews 4:15 "yet without sin".
Jesus had a will of His own Luke 22:42 Jesus was not just a man His Father was God, He could be tempted, and He was obedient to the Father. If Jesus was unable to disobey and unable to sin if He chose to, how can we say He was tempted and how could He fulfill and overcome the curse of death, and the law and He/Jesus the Son of God die for our sins? Would Satan accept anything other than a man fulfilling the law and taking away his power of death Hebrews 2:14?
God bless,
RLW
The number of Man is 6.
The number 7 is completeness.
Man is incomplete without God.
I believe you see this in the structure of the menorah.
We have the tendency to believe Man can get his act together if his conditions were to change and there were no outside influence from Satan.
We just need a great economy and time to evolve into Holy people as long as we're under the watch and providence of our great ruler, with even better odds than Adam and Eve had in the Garden or Israel had in the wilderness.
Atleast that would seem to be the case if Satan was bound.
No more evil influence from that deceiver!
Well scripture tells us that the nations of the WORLD will have just that.
Here's just a few verses
Isaiah 30:19-21.
Isaiah 65:17-24.
Amos 9:11-15.
Zechariah 14:16-19.
Revelation 5:10.
Isaiah 2:2-4.
This will happen here on earth during the Millennium when Satan is bound.
And when he's loosed he will deceive the nations again.
Revelation 20:1-8.
Note: This is not the Church!
More on Satan and Eden next.
God bless.
The first Adam, his disobedience brought sin and death into the world, Romans 5:12-19. The last Adam by obedience to God brought forgiveness and life, the resurrection from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed, their hearts were uncorrupted and free from sin. After they ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened, their consciences were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin replaced the purity they had. They had a sense of fear and disgrace due to their disobedience.
The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things, their view of their nakedness should be covered. Nakedness was not a sin, but a fallen perception of nakedness brought shame and sorrow they now felt.
As God covered Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their shame/nakedness. Our nakedness of shame can be covered with the garment Isaiah 61:10 given by Jesus. We in Jesus shall not be found naked, but clothed, with the garment of Christ's righteousness, our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome.
Concerning those that do not die in the Lord, that do not watch, and keep their garments will walk naked, their sins will be open to being seen, Revelation 16:15 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Revelation 20:15.
Every human being, whether they're saved or unsaved, and regardless of their culture, ethnicity, or background, has a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. Inside this conscience is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit Romans 9:1 we can repent and be covered, if not we will be naked and found guilty. We cannot hide what is in our conscience, it records every good and evil we have ever done or thought. I feel this is where we are naked or clothed. Romans 4:6-8 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 1:19 Hebrews 9:9 Hebrews 13:18 1 Peter 3:21.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you for the question. The bible does teach that every single person who has ever been born into this world will one day stand before God to be judged. There will be a judgment for all believers which is known as the Bema Seat judgment of Christ, and then there will be another judgment called the Great White Throne judgment which comes after the thousand-year reign of Christ, and this judgment will be for all those who have rejected Christ.
I think what throws a lot of people off is the word "all," and it is assumed that everyone (both the wicked and the just) will all stand before God together at the same time. But this is not true. If we examine Revelation Chapter 20 closely, especially Revelation 20:13-14, we can see that these are the wicked who are judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:13 says that death and Hades both delivered up the dead that were in them. Right now, there are no believers in Hades. They were released with the Lord's message to them. After Jesus died on the cross for them, He descended into the lower parts of the earth, and all the believers that were in that part of Hades (Abraham's Bosom), they were taken with Christ.
But the non-believers were left there. The only ones in Hades right now are the ones who rejected Christ. And that's where all non-believers go today, until the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ.
So, to answer your question, do I believe Paul was talking to believers only in 2 Corinthians 5:10 when he said all? My answer to that is yes. If you begin at Verse 1 of 2 Corinthians Chapter 5, and read all the way through in context, this can only be referring to believers.
But yes, we will all be judged, either at the Bema Seat judgement of Christ to determine our reward as believers, or later on at the Great White Throne Judgment, only to be judged and cast into the lake of fire, which is literally Hell.
Again, thanks for the question and blessings to you also!
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Matthew 25:31-34 and 41&46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Get ready-> Acts 14:22
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the RIGHTEOUS into life ETERNAL.( Romans 2:7-11.Take a look)
Revelation 20:4
4-And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them( Revelation 11:16-17), and Judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the Beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The most important thing is to be with Him, no matter where or in what place, the problem is to be cast into the fire of hell.--> Matthew 10:28-take a look.
GOD BLESS
As S Spencer said we may not know for sure.
We all have inside us, a sinful nature from the first Adam, we also have a conscience, the knowledge of good and evil, and the knowledge of God. We first see this when Adam and Eve hid themselves because they were naked. We see some go so far into the darkness that their conscience can be seared, the conscience no longer tells them good from evil, 1 Timothy 4:2. There is a point where God turns them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28-32.
I believe there will be those who enter eternity who have never heard the gospel, and those who lived before Jesus first came because we have a loving and just God.
Romans 2:11-16 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
My understanding is this will happen at the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, in this it says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". If some were not found in the Book of Life means some were found in it. I know many may not agree but if we consider verses like Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:31-46 John 5:28-29 to me these also point to this white throne judgment.
I am sure our loving and just God communicates with those who have not had a chance to read or hear Scripture, I believe the blood of Christ will cover them as well.
God bless,
RLW
You will find what is called the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:10,
The judgment seat is called the bema in the Greek.
2 Corinthians 5:10, "FOR WE must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be (GOOD OR BAD).
Notice what's in caps.
1) Paul adds himself to the group that must appear.
(THIS JUDGMENT IS FOR BELIEVERS ONLY)
2) Paul says, "that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be (GOOD OR BAD). This judgment is for REWARDS for the believers, NOT a judgment for salvation. John 5:24 reads Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death unto life.
This is NOT the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. That will be the final judgment of the wicked prior to their being cast into the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:11-15). The Great White Throne will be unbelievers.
MORE ON THE BEMA SEAT.
A bema was a raised platform on which judges sat to view athletic games. Their job was to make sure contestants followed the rules and to present awards.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 gives us a glance on how this judgment may be performed.
The material used in this portion of scripture speaks of the source behind our works performed.
Those who build with gold, silver, precious stones, their work will abide and be refined. This group is moved by the Holyspirit.
Those who build with wood, hay, stubble; this group works will be consumed by fire. This group wasn't led by the Spirit, but by the flesh.
God bless.
Yes, brother you understood correctly I believe Jesus if He chose, He could have given into a temptation and been disobedient to His Father. Hebrews 2:18 says He suffered being tempted and in Hebrews 4:15 Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus did not have a sinful nature like we do, He was not from man but was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost, He was the second man the last Adam.
The first Adam was not formed with a sinful nature, but he sinned and was disobedient, Jesus was sinless and obedient to the end, Romans 5:19. He had to know how it feels to battle temptations to become our priest and mediator. If Jesus was incapable of giving in to temptation His perfect sinless life has no meaning and if He was not capable of being disobedient being obedient to the Father unto death has no meaning.
The miracles Jesus did were not by His power but by the power of the Holy Ghost that God the Father gave to Him without measure John 3:34-35 Acts 10:38 Jesus said many times it was not His will but the Father's will who sent Him, and He also said the words He spoke were not His but the Father, John12:49-50 That is why Jesus's name is called the Word of God, Revelation 19:13.
Now after God raised Jesus from death, He is at His Father's right hand on the throne of God and has been given power of the throne over all until the last enemy, death is under His feet, Ephesians 1:19-23 Revelation 20:14.
I know you may disagree but that is how I understand it.
God bless,
RLW
As I re-read Ephesians & Romans on this subject particularly, I found myself wondering whether we actually understand the terms that Paul uses in the context of his writings. If we take a word, e.g. 'choosing' in isolation, then yes, we could easily think in terms of 'choosing someone to receive salvation'. Yet not only from the chapter itself, but by understanding the whole Counsel & Purposes of God in Salvation, this should at least alert the inquiring mind to other possibilities. And this becomes true, as you wrote, that if we incorrectly understand the message to us, then we would believe that God specifically sets aside some to receive salvation and others to be rejected. This then has great bearing on how that sin-soaked, God-rejected person stands before his Judge in that latter day ( Revelation 20:11-13), when there can actually be no accusation against him, since he was appointed to a life of sin & eternal hell simply because he behaved according to God's Will. When we try to study the matter fully, diligently searching for the answers, then a proper balanced outcome will be realized. Blessings.
Quoting you;
( Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty)
God will judge the dead by their works.
Revelation 20:12.
They are judged by a righteous God and they are Judged in that manner because they WERE offered a sacrifice that they rejected and a justified judgement felt on them.
God bless you.
22 It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth, and whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heaven like a curtain, and He spread them out like a tent to dwell in - Ephesians 1:3-8KJV: 3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord JESUS Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
Now, in this current millennnium, two of the four heavens created by GOD through JESUS will be DISSOLVED(without JESUS was not any thing made that was made). In fact both heavens -the first and second heavens- will be BURNED with everlasting fire from now on- 2Peter 3:7 combined with Isaiah 33:14-15- , the Word is GOD- and the 3rd heaven will be established in this current millennium, that is the seventh and last millennium. And this 3rd heaven whose heavenly environment is described in Revelation 4 and 5 combined with Luke 20:35-36, among many other biblical references -come up hither-, the 3rd heaven, third heavenly spiritual place in Christ, the Kingdom of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18, it will last 1000 years. After this, I mean, ending this millennium, then will be established the heaven of the heavens for all Eternity - Revelation 20:7-15.Take a look.
Get ready
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
1 of 2 -JESUS described two events:
1st EVENT-DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE
1-JESUS came out from the Temple,the disciples came to Him and shew Him the stones of the Temple.
2-JESUS said unto them,See ye not all these things?verily I say unto you,There shall not be left here one stone upon another,that shall not be thrown down.
The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy.What He said was LITERALLY fulfilled in the year 70AD,40 years after His ascension. There should never again be built another similar Temple,the den of the thieves never came to be rebuilt as it was.
Notice that concerning the destruction of the Temple,it has nothing to do with Mount Olives;
Mount Olives has to do only with the DESTRUCTION of the WORLD of Devil in the current time,from now on.
Israel was destroyed from 70 to 1948,1878 years of severe punishments and curses- Deuteronomy 28:15-68-the Temple there should never again be built another.The father of the Jews- John 8:44-will be cast down into the bottomless pit,that he should deceive the nations no more- Revelation 20:1-4.
-2ND EVENT-DESTRUCTION OF THE DEVIL's WORLD & SIGNS OF JESUS's COMING
3JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives.The disciples came unto Him privately,saying:Tell us,when shall these things be?
1-What shall be the sign of thy coming?
2-And of the END of the world?
4JESUS gave a list of signs,saying what AT FIRST will happen:
(1)Take heed that no man deceive you;
(2)For many shall come in my name,saying,I am Christ( John 5:43-48);and shall deceive many;
(3)And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:see that ye be not troubled:for all these things must come to pass,but the END is not yet;
(4)For nation shall rise against nation,and kingdom against kingdom;
(5)and there shall be famines;
(6)and pestilences;
(7)and earthquakes,in divers places;
JESUS warned:All these are the beginning of sorrows.At first,all these things must come to pass,but the END is not yet.In fact,it is a PRETRIBULATIONAL PERIOD
1/2
Thanks, brother, I did not intend to combine salvation issue and eschatology. I was just referring to it being an innate human nature to follow a crowd and taking the path of least resistance. I did not mean to base any truth on the majority or minority. I agree we can apply Matthew 7:13 with salvation but we can also apply it to what is being taught as in verse 15 is a warning of false prophets. This includes false teaching that is attractive and the larger the crowd the easier it is to deceive people.
I agree we should put Scripture above all that is taught out there for in them is the only truth, but many people do not, they just go with what they hear from a preacher, TV, YouTube, etc. Some never open a Bible and study and pray, asking God for the truth and the larger the follower's impact what they believe is the truth.
We can be deceived if we do not try the spirits, 1 John 4:1 that only comes from prayer and study being guided by the Holy Spirit. Hope this makes sense, we have discussed this before and this is not to debate we both know each other's understanding and I am not asking you but honestly, I have not found or have been shown one verse that out-and-out says we go or are taken to heaven that some teach.
I must disagree, I am not Amillennialism, I do not spiritualize Scripture, I believe in a literal 1000-year reign of Jesus with His chosen and faithful at His second coming, Revelation 5:10 Revelation 20:4-6. Also, I do not believe the Church has replaced Israel. We are probably closer in our understanding of the end times than you think.
Hope you had a good vacation I guess you are on the road again.
God bless,
RLW
And now we get to that great first woe. Let us examine the verses one at a time. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. ( Rev. 9:1)
There has been some contention as to the identity of this angel being Satan himself; because this would give him authority over the bottomless pit even AFTER these five months and it would render Revelation 20:3 illogical which states
"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."
This would seem to identify this angel as the same who seals Satan himself in later. Ultimately; Jesus Himself has the keys of death and hell (actually Hades) as stated in Revelation 1:18.
It is easy to glibly identify these creatures as demonic hordes. They certainly appear to be different than the mutated genetic offspring of men and angels mentioned in Genesis 6. Nonetheless they are confined in the underworld where other demons will also be imprisoned in due season; which would appear to be the same time Satan is under the earth. ( Isaiah 24:21).
Apollyon is known as the destroyer who is king over these creatures and gives "marching orders". They are NOT allowed to kill however and perhaps there is some sort of immortality in suffering during the prescribed 5 month period.
Revelation 9:4 states And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
This passage indicates the "sealing" of the 144,000 and the fact that they are still on the earth at that time. This will be the ultimate protection and obvious to the rest of the world who suffers the punishment of these tormentors. It is no wonder that they are ready for the Mark after
Greetings in Christ JESUS our Lord and Saviour
Thank you for your reply.
As it is written,"All Scripture is given by inspiration of GOD,and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness:That the man of GOD may be perfect,thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
As you know,our enemy"is wiser than Daniel;there is no secret that they can hide from him".Paul Apostle warned,saying:Put on the whole armour of GOD,that ye may BE ABLE to stand AGAINST the wiles of the Devil.
Think you(and many)also know that the MAN of sin,a Jewish MAN,son of perdition,will manifest himself very soon as messiah and God( John 5:43-47and 2Thessalonians 2:3-4and9-12,and mainly Revelation 13:11 and so on),so we all MUST be careful.Get ready.
However,the prophecy of Ezekiel is very clear:Ez.28:7-10-->7 Behold,therefore I will bring strangers upon thee,the terrible of the nations:and they shall draw their Swords against the beauty of thy wisdom,and they shall defile thy brightness.
8They shall bring thee down to the pit( Revelation 20:1-3),and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.(peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues-Re.17:15)
9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee,I am God?but thou shalt be a MAN,and no God,in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised(he's a Jewish MAN)by the hand of strangers:for I have spoken it,saith the Lord GOD.
Re.12:9-12-->9And the great dragon was cast out,that old serpent,called the Devil,and Satan,which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation,and strength,and the kingdom of our GOD,and the power of His Christ:for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,which accused them before our GOD day and night.11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their testimony;12Th
Thank you, brother, After the first resurrection, their judgement and rewards, Revelation 20:4 and after the 1000 years is the day of judgment for the rest of the dead. Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 2 Corinthians 5:10 Revelation 20:11-15.
This is our hope, and the promise God has given to us 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, those who are not the chosen and faithful in the first resurrection sleep in death until the day of judgment for all who have lived, Revelation 20:11-15.
God bless,
RLW
It will be awesome but there will be horrible times before He returns. If we are still living, we must be strong in our faith to resist the hour of temptation that is coming. When He returns it will not be some silent secret event, Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 23:39. He will return to the same place from where He ascended, Acts 1:10-11. When He touches His feet back on earth on the Mount of Olives the earth will split with the power and glory that has been given Him by God, Zechariah 14:4.
There will be the chosen and faithful, Revelation 17:14 who have been grafted into the vine in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:5-6 that will be a part of this kingdom and reign for one thousand years.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
There are terms in the Bible such as twice dead and Second death. " Jude 1:12, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8.
Paul says in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Which death did he die? The 1st or the 2nd?
An unbeliever is ALREADY dead! Yet he is still continuous.
( 1 Timothy 5:6.) This is a very common NT idiom. The word (noun) for "dead" is "nekros" and is used of physical death (obviously) but also spiritual death to describe an unsaved person who is physically alive but spiritually dead. Here are some examples:
Matt 8:22 - But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.
Eternal Salvation is life! It is separation from this Body/Tabernacle of death.
In Romans 6:3 we see the sacrificial Lamb at work.
In Romans 6:4-5 we see the NEW BIRTH and the first fruit of the Resurrection. This is the 1st Resurrection.
You are either dead right now or you have life right now!
Those who have life has already died once and has been born again, never to die again.
"Eternal life speaks of "spiritual life and death".
That's the only death a believer has. "He's already been born again"
Those who are dead is already spiritual dead and their bodies will soon die, and they will remain spiritual dead throughout eternity.
The bible doesn't say anything about being unconscious after the body dies. It has lots of scripture describing conscious.
If the grave is Hell, the Bible never says anything about the saved going there.
See Pt 2
I understand in delays in replies many work and have family responsibilities. This subject is being discussed by several people and I just wanted to share a few points of my understanding on it. The questions were not directed towards you, you can reply to them if you want but they were some of the questions I wrote down when I was studying this subject because some Scriptures seem to support both understandings if not deeply studied, not saying you have not.
Scripture tells us God is love, 1 John 4:8,16 and we have been told God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11 caries us to John 3:16 God does not want us to perish. The Bible tells us the soul that sinneth will die, Ezekiel 18:4 God preserves the souls of the saints Psalms 97:10 the faith and belief in Jesus by the grace of God can save our soul Hebrews 10:39.
Scripture tells us of various degrees of punishment like in Luke 12:46-48 Revelation 21:8. In Genesis 2:7 man became a living soul/being, my understanding is the breath of God is the spirit of life which goes back to God when we die whether lost or saved and this body becomes a dead soul that sleeps in the dust until resurrection then the judgment Revelation 20.
To repeat, eternal life is our promise it is something we do not have, only by faith and belief in Jesus Christ by the grace of God we will receive this gift when we are resurrected not before. If we say our souls are immortal, we are saying we already have eternal life, and it is just where are we going to spend it?
My understanding is the lost and wicked punishment is eternal forever, not the punishing, Satan and the fallen angels the beast and false profit will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:10, but they are not mortal beings like we are, and we see in Matthew 25:41 it was originally prepared for them.
Just my understanding of Scripture thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
(Part 2):
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
Galatians 1:8-9.
Jordyn said;
Those who believe they DIED and were made ONE in Christ, will never die again.
Those who don't believe they DIED, and the resurrection made them ONE as the Father and Son and son are ONE will be cast into prison, the GRAVE. "Made one in Christ" in Jordyn's opinion means you become Gods"
Is this not another Gospel?
More issues.
Jordyn claims the flesh of the unbelievers is the devil and the bottomless pit mentioned in Revelation 20:2-3 is the grave.
He also claims we are already living in the 1000 years mention in verse 5.
He claims the unbelievers/Devil will be loosed out of the grave, "resurrected" in Revelation 20:7.
After all the dead are raised at the second resurrection, "LOOSED OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT" the Sons of God "WILL PREACH THE TRUTH TO THEM ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE RESURRECTION"
LET'S EXAMINE.
Revelation 20:7-8. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
AND SHALL GO OUT TO DECIEVE THE NATIONS which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(Jordyn says these verses says the unbelievers will preach the truth!)
The bible says Satan will deceive the nations!
So, Jordyn says God will judge the unbelievers by the word of God and give them the truth and mercy given to us, and they will have DIED the second death, and also become the SONS of God and will enter the Kingdom. Thats what he gets out of Revelation 20:2-8.
However, Look at Revelation 22:11-15. SOME REMAIN UNJUST!
Some have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Some are seen here in verse 15. "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
BEWARE OF WHO YOU FOLLOW! NO CHILD OF GOD WOULD DO SUCH BLASPHEMY TO THE WORD OF GOD!
Revelation 22:19.
God bless.