1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
This prayer is basically synonymous with Revelation 19; and a host of other prophecies related to Christ's return in victory to rule and reign over the earth. The Tribulation itself begins just 7 years earlier with the Daniel 9:27 covenant "with many". The covenant with "death and hell" ( Isaiah 28:15 describing what the authors of this contract themselves proclaim at its inception).
It appears that the world may very well praise God if we take the verses in Revelation 5:3 literally. Once we get to the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-15 we see men running from God's judgment; but after the Revelation 13 beast rises up and the False Prophet does his thing the world will take their mark of allegiance and in the end will be deceived by the 3 demons ( Rev. 16:13) and decide to fight against the Lord. That will be a consummation of a number of battles; not the least of which is the Ezekiel 38 war where everyone meets at Meddigo; probably beginning to fight one another; then turning on each other and fighting Christ.
Moving on; verses 4-7 say: He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Trying to focus this as it applied to David's understanding of what was a clearly prophetic message; we see how David was a sort of forerunner of the Messiah who would indeed be victorious over His foes and rule and reign. David is promised to rule with Him as well ( Jeremiah 30:9).
Now, even now, from now on, what will happen it's only and only the Judgment of GOD. It's a matter evil ones to render an account according to the righteous Judgment of GOD, the Judgment Seat of Christ.
In my vision, I see our Lord JESUS revealing through His angel- Revelation 6:14-17- the LITERAL fulfillment of Scripture you have quoted and interpreted it from Isaiah 2:21.
Revelation 6:14-17
14 And the heaven (heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8 and 2Peter 3:7) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were MOVED out of their places. (Every religious, and politic, and economic, and social, and military structures will be moved/dissolved/destroyed, including the Dispensations of the OT and NT(heavens)will be dissolved). IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the Great Day(Lord's Day-seventh and last Day) of His wrath is come( Revelation 11:18); and who shall be able to stand?
The Word of GOD reveals unto us: Hebrews 4:12-13:
12 The Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do (we must render an account)
THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - Revelation 16:13
I searched deeply an explanation for this biblical mystery, and by the Word of GOD what I found is the follow:
First of all, frogs are amphibians vertebrate animals that live in the aquatic environment and on the terrestrial environment. But is it the same in the spiritual environment? Yes, it is.
1-AQUATIC ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
Revelation 17:15-And the angel saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. NOTE: Except the TRUE CHRISTIANS/ ELIEVERS, all the peoples of all the nations are leaded and guided by the THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs.TERRIBLE.
The aquatic environment of these three spirits of demons like frogs which guide the peoples or rule nations of all tongues in whole earth, through devilish systems, as religious systems(Catholicism, and Judaism, spiritism, budhism, islamism, among others),and also political systems,and military systems,and social and cultural systems,among others systems. In fact, Satan goes to and fro and from walking up and down among them.
2 - TERRESTRIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
FIRST we need to understand that Israel is an island among the waters (Gentile nations)or in the middle of the sea, as is described above in according the Scriptures. Israel is the earth, a dry land, Genesis 1:v.10-3rd Day-or still the clay- Isaiah 64:v.8-a dry land surrounded by water on all sides or by allegory surrounded by the Gentile nations. Isaiah prophesyed saying: Is.41:1-2 -> 1-Keep silence before me,O islands; and let the people renew their strength:let them come near;then let them speak:let us come near together to Judgment.
2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east,called him to his foot,gave the nations before him,and made him rule over kings?he gave them as the dust to his Sword- Revelation 2:v.26 to 28-,and as driven stubble to his bow.(bow- Revelation 6:v.2)
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
This verse encapsulates what is going on in the second and third seals in what is the FOURTH seal. It adds the detail "beasts of the earth" which has been interpreted in two ways; animals or possibly plagues causes by animals. In any event the end result is one fourth of the earth dying. The question here is whether that means one quarter of the entire earth as a WHOLE; or a judgment confined to a quarter of the earth. If it is the latter it could mean that destruction was in that region and perhaps leaves room for SOME surviving it. That principle could of course occur in the world at large; but again not nit picking too much it will bring for most under their influence a fate of death by one or more of these means and hence be unprecedented in casualties.
There are some who have stated that this primarily is a racial type of conflict or focusing on one on one combat. We don't see territories mentioned or armies; weapons; etc. If there is that type of conflict; no doubt it would simply aid the Antichrist Beast to consolidate his efforts for worldwide power and domination. Psalm 83 is one possibility of what will be in the early Tribulation when Israel's IMMEDIATE neighbors are obliterated. Zepheniah 2:4 says For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Logically speaking; Antichrist will have to appear to protect Israel for the first half of the Tribulation; or the temple sacrifices; preaching of the two prophets; etc will not be able to occur. We also see his primary goal is to have worship from the whole earth and also economic control. For a time Revelation 13 shows worldwide control.
Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
To understand the first seal of Revelation which is parallel to the " Daniel 9:27" covenant; we have to gain wisdom and understanding on what exactly the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 represents. We can see a similar concept here to the Mahdi of Islam; who is said to come this exact way on a white horse and makes a seven year pact (from what I can tell is in a Hadith rather than specifically mentioned in the Koran but I don't want to focus on that here). My point is the idea of peace through force or SUBMISSION. The point in verse 24 of Daniel 8 is also translated as causing "astonishing devestation". This would likely be the scenario where he takes over the 3 nations of the 10 mentioned in Daniel 7:8. That would possibly be related to a limited nuclear conflict but could of course be a type of "blitzkrieg" that is a sudden assault rendering enemies helpless. SInce this is a power struggle that could be the emphasis here.
These passages also show judgment by God; even in false peace. Jeremiah 6:14 and 8:11 bolster what is seen in Thessalonians about false peace ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The world shall believe in "THE LIE" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and the Jews will believe in another who comes in his own name as John 5:43 shows with Jesus warning His own people with what they indeed WILL do in the future. God will use men and Satan to do His will.
23 I beheld the earth(Israel), and, lo, it was without form, and void( Genesis 1:2); and the heavens(Eph.1:3-8 combined with Genesis 1:1), and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains...they trembled, the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld,and, lo,there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
The verse 24 is an event to happen in near future, it is linked with Revelation 6:14-17, and it is linked to the opening of the sixth seal.
Get ready, there will be a WAR against the body of the red Dragon, a religious and satanic MONSTER having 7 heads, 10 horns and a terribel TAIL as was prophesied by Daniel:
Daniel 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the GOD of heaven set up a kingdom( Revelation 11:15-18), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great GOD hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Meditation that brings you to Psalms 45,especially Psalms 45:6-7.
Speaking of JESUS(Ps.45:6-7)-->In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne,O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom.(It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16, about the archangel Michael who comes first,comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)
Hebrews 1:7-And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:--> 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh,O most mighty,with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John,These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)
5Thine arrows( Revelation 6:2)are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies;whereby the people fall under thee.( Revelation 11:15)
Re.11:16-17
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord GOD Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned( 1Corinthians 15:24-27and51-55-Take a look)
Re.11:18-And the nations were angry,and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth
1 Timothy 5:21 seems to answer that question regarding the "elect angels". I don't believe any elect beings can ultimately fall; but in the case of the angels they saw heaven and were present when the worlds were created as the verses in Job indicate when all the sons of glory shouted for joy. This begs the question of course did God foresee all those who would fall and call the remaining the elect; or were they predestined to go that way? I would say both as God certainly is unlimited. Seeing everything as the angels did there could be no further remedy unlike mortal man who has never seen God or only what they learned starting in Eden. Seeing heaven as Lucifer did and more importantly the proper praise of God's holiness in the beginning also would have made it clear what worshiping a created being would imply. This is similar to the logic I apply to the Tribulation at least from the sixth seal on there is no more need to tell anyone that Christ is Lord as they will hide from the face of God and Christ at His right hand ( Revelation 6:16 imperfectly translated by me).
Clearly of course God's predestined plan from before the foundation of the world for our salvation (I'll let you find the verse) shows that God knew what was going to occur. This doesn't give us a pleasant feeling; and we should be reminded the dirge said related to Lucifer's fall in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Once the angels saw all these things there was no need for validation of who God was; and there was also no further remedy-they were forever to be out of the favor of God with the ultimate destiny of hell (which was created for the Devil and his angels).
This should be a sobering reminder to man that there is a point beyond redemption once we have tasted heavenly things as Hebrews and literally hundreds of other scriptures point out in warnings of reprobate individuals and those who at first glance appear to be saved who fall away. There is a book of all living and of life.
And yes, I agree with you Momsage, that there is no clear indication about this in the Bible. However, since there is evidence of angelic observance of matters on Earth (as I shared earlier: Matthew 18:10 & 1 Peter 1:10-12) as well as Revelation 6:9,10 (the martyrs plea to God against those thirsty for their blood on Earth), one can see why this belief of a general observance from Heaven's 'residents' can be easily accepted. So for me, as much as I don't subscribe to it, I can understand why some do. And if such a belief doesn't lead to any sin of idolatry, diminishing of God's Holiness & Authority, or elevation of the heavenly ones to a place of refuge for us, then it is a belief that they will have to come to terms with in the Light of the Scriptures.
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
Ok Jema, I will venture to answer your two questions as simply as I can.
a. Isaiah 13:12: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." As you no doubt have read through Isaiah & now here from chapter 13, Isaiah prophesies against various nations (chapters 13 to 23). Here in chapter 13, it is against Babylon, where the promise is that God will call His 'separated' ones, His 'mighty' ones to "destroy the whole land"; and this happened when the Medes/Persians overthrew Babylon in 539 BC (also in Daniel 5:30,31). This army came from a far country (over 500 miles east of Babylon). As in the destruction of Babylon, so will it be in the Day of the LORD where the intensity of the destruction is described in Revelation 6:12,13. In both scenarios, the loss of mankind will be so great, God says, "I will make man more precious than fine gold...". This verse speaks of the scarcity of men (including women), that to find even one during those days (of Babylon's destruction & the Lord's coming vengeance) would be of greater discovery & value than finding gold.
b. Colossians 3:10: "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." I think your question is centered on the last part of this verse. The apostle had just written about 'putting off the old man with his deeds'. But having 'put it off', we must now "put on the new man". The two cannot happily co-exist - it's one or tother before God. And this activity is not a one time act - it is on-going. Here, this renewing is through knowledge (see Ephesians 4:24, where God creates this new man "in righteousness and true holiness"). As we grow in knowledge of God & His blessed Son, we become more like Him (His Image), just as ADAM was CREATED in God's Image. After the fall, that Image was severely marred. But "in Christ" & the Spirit's Work in us, that Image is being gradually restored - if we let His Work continue in us.
At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him-Mat.25:verse 6.
The bridegroom tarried, all slumbered and slept-verse 5.
The bridegroom comes; and only they that are ready go in with Him to the marriage: and the door will be shut acccording verse 10.
Reemember that the disciples privately asked two important things to JESUS,saying:
1-What shall be the SIGN of thy coming?
2-and of the END of the world? (the current Devil's world)
Our Lord JESUS listed several signs that would happen previously before His coming as is written in Matthew 24:3-7,and He warned in the verse 8 saying that the signs listed were only the beginning of sorrows. Are you see that the SIGNS LISTED
of the coming of our Lord are LITERALLY be fulfilled? If not, wake up, yeah wake up and get up quickly.
Get ready. Get ready. Get ready.The Day of Vengeance arrived,the Day of the Lord.
Revelation 11:15to18
15-The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18-And the NATIONS were (will be) angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, ... and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 6:15-17
15 The kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman, and every free man,hid(will hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the GREAT Day of His wrath is come;and who shall be able to stand?
The ANGEL of the Lord,John the Baptist,warned the Jews,saying:O generation of vipers,who has warned you to flee from the WRATH to come? Luke 3:7. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: he that believes not the Son shall not see life;but the WRATH of GOD abides on him- John 3:31
This is not Jesus riding on the white horse in Revelation 6:2.
For many years it was interpreted that this was the second coming of Jesus Christ, a white horse coming, the one who's sitting on it is given a crown, and he goes out to conquer, so they said this is Jesus Christ.
But if we study it out, we realize that this is not the second coming of Christ, but rather the representation of the antichrist, the false messiahs who will come.
And here's why:
It says he comes on a white horse. It's the same as Jesus in Revelation Chapter 19. It's a white horse.
But, this one who is sitting on a white horse has a bow. In Revelation Chapter 19, Christ has a sword.
A crown was also given to this one. And the word for crown is STEPHANOS. That's the wreath that is given to the victors at the coliseum games. This is a STEPHANOS.
In Revelation Chapter 19, it says that when Christ comes at His second coming, He will be wearing many crowns, and the word for crown is DIADEM, the royal crown.
And this one will come out conquering and to conquer. And that's the antichrist taking over the one world system.
Also another point to make, it is the Lamb that's opening the seal. He's not coming back yet, not until we get into Revelation Chapter 19.
So this one riding on a white horse with a bow in his hand, he was given a crown, a STEPHANOS, not a DIADEM. And he went out to conquer. This is the antichrist. This is the false messiah that Jesus said first would come.
Revelation 6:12 And when the SIXTH seal was opened, and lo, there was a great earthquake .... Matthew 27:54.... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair ...... Matthew 27:45 ....... and the moon became as blood ...... John 19:34 .....
All this was prophesied:
Joel 2:31 The sun shall turn into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable Day of the Lord come.
Revelation 12:1 - 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the SUN, and the MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN became black as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth( Revelation 12:3-4), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (The TAIL of the red dragon rew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth):
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men- 2Peter 3:7).
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His wrath is come(the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium); and who shall be able to stand?
John 3:34-36
34 - He whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD: for GOD giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of GOD abideth on him.
Why do you assume the beast in Revelation is satan or the anti-christ?
Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH beast shall be the FORTH KINGDOM on earth ....
John the Baptist came preaching the KINGDOM of GOD; the FORTH kingdom on earth, the FORTH BEAST, the last kingdom on earth.
The Kingdom of God has been on earth now for about 2000 years; CHRIST IN THE FLESH, IN YOU, his BODY, causing man TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Ezekiel 36:27 I WILL put MY SPIRIT IN YOU and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes and TO KEEP my judgements and DO THEM
Revelation 6:7 And when HE (the lamb of God) had opened the forth seal, I heard the voice of the FORTH BEAST (the lamb of God, the kingdom of God) SAY, come and see
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, and his name that sat on him WAS DEATH, and the grave followed after him, and POWER WAS GIVEN TO THEM (the image of the BEAST, the kingdom of GOD) over the forth part of the earth, to KILL with the SWORD (the word of God), and with HUNGER (no bread of life), and with DEATH, and with the BEAST of the EARTH (those that carry the mark of the BEAST: the kingdom of God.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth HELPED the WOMAN, and the earth OPENED her MOUTH (DEATH and the grave), and swallowed up the FLOOD (people, tongues and nations) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Psalms 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the INSTRUMENTS of DEATH; he ORDAINED his ARROWS against the persecutors.
Jeremiah 51:29 THOU (those that carry the MARK) are my battle axe and WEAPONS of WAR (arrows, the word of GOD); for with THEE (the saints, the BODY of Christ, the IMAGE of the BEAST) WILL I break in pieces the NATIONS, and with THEE will I destroy kingdoms.
Revelation 2:27 ...to him that overcometh, WILL I give POWER over the NATIONS .....
May we be faithful to worship the LORD GOD in prayer, and testimony before the lost world. As saints our spiritual destiny is settled in the blood of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
We must go forth and make disciples and reach those who need to be saved. Family, friends, any and all - GOD will bless our efforts. GOD to shine and bless our efforts.
Amen! Praying for all who are this forum. August 27, 2023
Tribulation: Purposes of the Seal Judgments as related to Israel's history.
The sword; famine and pestilence seen in judgments 2-4 in Revelation 6 fit in with a pattern set by God to judge Israel since most of their history was in a rebellious state despite being called to be an example to the nations ( Isaiah 49:6) and set apart ( Jeremiah 2:2-3). The pattern of sword; famine and pestilence can therefore be seen in Jeremiah 14:11-12 as well as other passages in the same book; and it found in Ezekiel 14:21; Deuteronomy 32:24; and other passages. Interestingly enough; Deuteronomy 4:30 mentions tribulation AND the last days; opening the door for repentance on man's part for God to turn back on some of these judgments (perhaps for individuals sealed by God or physically protected at that time and/or during the Trumpet judgments).
Therefore; this time before the Book is opened there appears to be room for repentance; although nothing said for the unregenerate where one quarter die at that time ( Rev. 6:8). It would appear since Hades is in Revelation 6:8 that everyone killed in this manner were unregenerate. The only question is if these are concentrated in a quarter of the earth or it involves one fouth of the world in general. We should also be soberly reminded here that many will not even physically survive to the point when the Beast is empowered and implements the mark ( Rev. 11:7) apparently after the martyrdom of the 2 Prophets and subsequent Resurrection at the 6th Trumpet ( Rev. 11:14).
The Antichrist at this time will rise to power ( Revelation 6:1-2) and begin to subdue and conquer nations. Daniel 8:9 shows how this "little horn" gains power; no doubt through superior intellect and intrigue ( Daniel 11:21). Nations no doubt are pitted so that they will through internal strife be conformed to the 10 nations ruled under the Beast after their sovereignty is destroyed.
I will delve into the fifth and sixth seal in my next sequel.
David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
Thanks Gasman for your reply; I'm glad that my answer to you might have been a little helpful. However, your question as to when does a human (whether still in embryonic form or after release from the womb) is equipped with a soul & spirit, can't really be answered irrefutably, simply because the Word is silent on it & very likely the medical profession will never admit it. Though some Scriptures might help us, such as Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; James 2:26; and maybe others which seem to show both the importance & destination of the human spirit when the body dies. Then again, the word 'soul' is also used similarly: Matthew 10:28; Matthew 16:26; Revelation 6:9, which seems to further confuse this matter of distinction between soul & spirit. However, as man is made in his Creator's Image, I believe that he needs to be fully equipped with & reflect this fully formed creative work; hence the need for this three-fold aspect of his humanness.
Yet, as you wrote, "Our core values we know for sure but secondary issues we don't", which is what we need to emphasize & build up one another on, rather than on matters we know little or nothing about. Yet, it's always an interesting exercise to ponder even over such things. Blessings.
No doubt a repeated theme; it seems prescient to once again drive home the point that "peace and security" will be the mantra bringing in the Antichrist to launching his campaign to take over the world. ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The "bloodless coup" which Revelation 6:1 seems to indicate will be accompanied by a man of intrigue understanding "dark sentences" ( Daniel 8:23). That verse is also packed with the description of all world rulers at the peak of corruption at the time this event occurs. These verses indicate occult origins; which the reader will note was prevalent particularly with Adolf Hitler in World War two.
No doubt like a chameleon this man will be able to give an appearance that will appeal to men of all audiences. As to the amount of success he will have with his military resume before this time is somewhat speculative; it would seem from Daniel 7:8 that his description as the "little horn" means that he comes from relative obsurity; then suddenly starts controlling the world scene. The Abraham accords which encompass dividing the land for gain ( Dan. 11:39) through massive economic payments and redistribution certainly seem like they will be the catalyst or at least one major component of the Daniel 9:27 confirming of this covenant.
Just how he will pull off explaining the Resurrection of the dead and the Rapture is subject to speculation. It is also uncertain exactly when the first seal event occurs; it seems that it could be immediately after the Rapture; but perhaps there will be a time of transition beforehand just to alleviate the inevitable chaos; if indeed my eschatological view is correct on the Pre-Trib rapture.
Resistance on a human level based on the previous scriptural references clearly is going to be futile (see also Rev. 13:4). No doubt the full power will come after the assassination and possession (I contend with the angel from the abyss Rev. 9:11.)
According to Genesis 4:15; a mark set upon Cain was to cause vengeance to anyone who would attempt to take his life. Compare this to the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13 and we find some interesting parallels.
First; Satan was a "murderer from the beginning." ( John 8:44). It is no surprise that the first child of Adam was to be attacked after Adam and Eve fell. Having failed the test of God he let temptation rule over him and slayed Abel his brother. Satan is also said to steal and destroy ( John 10:10) along with his lying. We see the progeny of Adam and Eve being destroyed; along with stealing from the parents being able to give an inheritance and Abel receiving it.
Later on in Genesis 4:24 Lamech tries to gain vengeance by his declaration of seventy times seventy for himself for his own violent actions. Kind of like the opposite of forgiveness for the same in Matthew 18:21-22.
The apparent resurrection of Antichrist from a deadly wound as well as being able to kill the two prophets that tormented men will inspire him to declare indestructibility as well as being able to effectively fight against God. He will likely convince men that he can live forever by merging with AI; and likely the DNA of the Nephilim or something to that affect will be part of that plan; as it was in Genesis 6 when all the descendants of men were destroyed for that reason (see Genesis 6:8-9 on Noah being perfect in his generations). Hence at that time we saw no repentance except for Noah; his wife; his 3 sons and their wives.
Whatever the case men will be unredeemable once they take the mark ( Revelation 14:9 and other passages). That will be the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 where people willingly reject the truth and believe The Lie.
The verse on those who dwell on the earth ( Revelation 11:10; also see Revelation 6:10 and other passages) indicates the sea of lost humanity. Revelation 13:8 concludes this for all unsaved.
I made a mistake when I said 6th bowl judgment. I meant to say, "By the time we get to the 6th seal judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17)."
You say that the wrath of God is very different from the great tribulation. I disagree with that. I believe that the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation. In Revelation, we see the seal judgments and the bowl judgments. By the time we get to the 6th bowl judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17). Then we have the description of the 7 bowl judgments beginning with Revelation 15:1 and going through revelation 16:21. Revelation 15:1 calls it the wrath of God.
The 7th bowl judgment is poured out at the end of Revelation Chapter 16. This happens before the second coming of Christ. So, the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years, not after the second coming of Christ.
Jimbob, hopefully I have answered your questions, whether you agree with my answers or not. Now to be fair, I would like a turn to ask you a few questions. You said that you believe we are living in the beginning of sorrows time period right now! great tribulation will start soon. Also, you honestly believe we are much farther along in the Lastdays timeline than most True Believers think we are.
I believe I mentioned that we have been living in the "last days" for about 2,000 years now.
But, my first question is: Do you believe that the "beginning of sorrows" and "birth pains" are both referring to the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation?
If you believe the beginning of sorrows is the first 3-1/2 years, how far into this time frame do you believe we are in, or when did you first start believing we were in this time period?
If we are in the "beginning of sorrows" right now, would you say that Christ is coming back within the next 7-years?
Last question: If Christ does not come back within this time frame, how would you explain that?
If you choose to answer my question, I wish to thank you ahead of time. Blessings!
2 Timothy 2:11 is the creed for the servant. When we see the phrase "it is a faithful saying" in the New Testament, it is literally, "the word is faithful." It was a phrase used in the New Testament church to say that these phrases were going around various churches, coming from various teachers and apostles that were not found in scripture, but were considered to be the word of God at that time. There was no New Testament. So, whenever a teacher says this is a faithful saying, it means this has been established in all the churches from the apostles and others, and it can be considered to be the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:12-13 should be taken together. If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the creed for a servant. Whatever hardship I must go through to serve Christ, if I be dead with Him, if I suffer, I'm going to live with Him and I'm also going to reign with Him. I've entered into the sufferings of Christ, not my sufferings, so that as I identify with His life and sufferings now, one day I'm going to reign with Him.
In Matthew 24, if I begin with Verse 1, it is easy to see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, not Gentiles, and not the church. Matthew 24:9 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." These are to the Jews. We are not suffering, nor will we suffer any of these things. The reason I say this is because Jesus is going to give direction as to what they (Jews) are to do about it. This lines up of with the fourth horse, the pale horse in Revelation 6:7-8 where death comes. He says, they will kill you: and you should be hated of all nations for my name sake.
Hi Tammy. Revelation 14:14-20: the verses aren't clear as to what Jesus reaped when He thrust in His sickle. I think you have assumed that it was believers that were harvested (or, raptured), & the angel clearly thrust in his sickle to gather the vine/grapes fit for destruction. The way I read those verses, is that the Lord harvested & the angel gathered. Even though a sickle is used for slashing a plant, it seems that it is used here as a symbol for gathering the harvest, that which the Lord performed. Can you read those verses in that way & see if that makes sense - since the Lord's harvesting doesn't describe the crops for harvest, it then has to be assumed that the whole job was for gathering the wicked together. And even here, the timeline of events appears out of sync. You may feel I'm laboring this point unnecessarily, but these are all small parts of eschatology that make up the whole account. Misunderstanding something here or applying the verses in another way, could well mean that we set off on another track.
As for God's Wrath, I agree that it is poured out because of the wickedness of unbelievers & for unbelievers only. But the matter that we discussed earlier was, 'is the Great Tribulation synonymous with God's Wrath, or merely a greater outpouring of horrors that comes on the whole world?' I shared that the Great Tribulation appears to be God's Wrath (as shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 & beyond) & we read this in Revelation 6:17 & Revelation 15:1, which fall upon men over a long period of time. And if it be God's Wrath from the time that His Restrainer is removed & the anti-Christ is revealed, then the Church (the true children of God) are snatched away before this time of torment.
Anyway Tammy, I see that our differences largely depend on the definition of these biblical terms & the verses that support them - hence the nature of the pre or post trib position are both valid depending on how we define these terms with their Scriptures. GBU.
I believe you're correct Tammy, that the Book of the Revelation does not always appear in chronological order & even if we try & read it as such (with our logical, ordered minds), we can't be absolutely certain of the correct sequence of events, seeing that John received this heavenly vision & Word in a manner appointed by the Lord.
But you've directed my reading to Revelation chapter 14, in which you see "that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest". From Revelation 14:6, we read of an angel arriving in the heavens with "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth". And then further down in verses 12 & 13, we read of "the patience of the saintsthat keep the commandments of God". I assume that these are the verses that convinces you that all believers (saints) will still be here, i.e. the Church pre- & during the Great Tribulation. Yet, if we take the angelic presentation of the Gospel (obviously not needed for the Church, but for the unbelievers at that time of anti-Christ's reign), then maybe the saints of verse 12 are those who were converted through the delivered Gospel, the Lord giving these others opportunity to repent & believe, who may already have taken the beast's mark, and to be saved. Just a thought.
And finally, verses 14 to 20 show the harvesting of the Earth. But who are harvested? In my reading, the harvest is directed to the haters & rejecters of God & are forthwith cast into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (verse 20). Now, even if the order of events may seem unclear, at least those whom the Lord is referring to, is clear. And yes, both Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 6:17 declare that these sufferings do come from God (from His Wrath) & not resulting from natural occurrences that we see at present; that this time IS God's Wrath being poured out & not something felt at the end. So will the present Church be saved from this Wrath?
Yes Tammy, my question was a lead question as to how then should we define the Great Tribulation? In the comment I referred to, you asked, "a question for those that side on the pre-tribulation rapture point of view". When I read your questions there, I sensed that the problem we have, lies in our understanding of what the Great Tribulation is & entails. I would think that those who subscribe to a post-trib rapture position, probably believe that the Great Tribulation involves both an extensive & more intense series of sufferings that might come upon all (i.e. the Church & others on the Earth). And to those who subscribe to a pre-trib postion, probably believe that the Great Tribulation IS the time of God's Wrath upon the Earth.
I'm aware that a few who have written on this & hold to the post-trib position, understand that God's Wrath is only poured out at the latter part, i.e. a post-trib suffering only to the unbelievers. But I ask, can it be that God's Wrath poured out is actually seen in the Great Tribulation? When we look at those explicit passages in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 (specifically on the heavenly appointed judgements, shown as the Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl Judgements), how should we understand this narrative given to us? If in the post-trib position, these judgements probably happen in very quick succession as part of God's Wrath (post-tribulation). If in the pre-trib camp, then these judgements happen over a period of time, even during anti-Christ's reign, & culminating at the final outpouring of God's Wrath, after which Jesus returns for the battle at Megiddo.
The reasons that I believe that Revelation 6 to 11 declare God's Wrath, rather than a much later time, is due to the nature of the sufferings, the origin of those calamities, & Revelation 6:17 itself declares, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These calamities appear to me as much greater than what we today have seen in history past or are seeing now.
1) The day of the Lord is mentioned 31 times in the bible, 26 times in the Old Testament and 5 in the New Testament.
To my knowledge nowhere in scripture it mentions any removal of the saints.
Here's a few.
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament ( Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages ( Revelation 6:15-17; 16:14).
In 2 Peter 3:3-18 we are told the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, and holding back his wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice something in verses 11 and 12.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ITS A QUESTION!!
The answer is NO!
Here's what were looking for;
Verses 13-16.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
See part 2 and the second issue I have with that view.
Thank you Jimbob for taking the time to pore through my submission, though I'm sorry that you weren't able to see what I see in the Scriptures. From the many other views we get on this subject, we see that we all can have our different Scriptures that show us how we should perceive these last days.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
Starting in verses 1-3 we read:
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
This prayer is basically synonymous with Revelation 19; and a host of other prophecies related to Christ's return in victory to rule and reign over the earth. The Tribulation itself begins just 7 years earlier with the Daniel 9:27 covenant "with many". The covenant with "death and hell" ( Isaiah 28:15 describing what the authors of this contract themselves proclaim at its inception).
It appears that the world may very well praise God if we take the verses in Revelation 5:3 literally. Once we get to the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-15 we see men running from God's judgment; but after the Revelation 13 beast rises up and the False Prophet does his thing the world will take their mark of allegiance and in the end will be deceived by the 3 demons ( Rev. 16:13) and decide to fight against the Lord. That will be a consummation of a number of battles; not the least of which is the Ezekiel 38 war where everyone meets at Meddigo; probably beginning to fight one another; then turning on each other and fighting Christ.
Moving on; verses 4-7 say: He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Trying to focus this as it applied to David's understanding of what was a clearly prophetic message; we see how David was a sort of forerunner of the Messiah who would indeed be victorious over His foes and rule and reign. David is promised to rule with Him as well ( Jeremiah 30:9).
Now, even now, from now on, what will happen it's only and only the Judgment of GOD. It's a matter evil ones to render an account according to the righteous Judgment of GOD, the Judgment Seat of Christ.
In my vision, I see our Lord JESUS revealing through His angel- Revelation 6:14-17- the LITERAL fulfillment of Scripture you have quoted and interpreted it from Isaiah 2:21.
Revelation 6:14-17
14 And the heaven (heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8 and 2Peter 3:7) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were MOVED out of their places. (Every religious, and politic, and economic, and social, and military structures will be moved/dissolved/destroyed, including the Dispensations of the OT and NT(heavens)will be dissolved). IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the Great Day(Lord's Day-seventh and last Day) of His wrath is come( Revelation 11:18); and who shall be able to stand?
The Word of GOD reveals unto us: Hebrews 4:12-13:
12 The Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do (we must render an account)
The Word is GOD, self-executing.
I searched deeply an explanation for this biblical mystery, and by the Word of GOD what I found is the follow:
First of all, frogs are amphibians vertebrate animals that live in the aquatic environment and on the terrestrial environment. But is it the same in the spiritual environment? Yes, it is.
1-AQUATIC ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
Revelation 17:15-And the angel saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. NOTE: Except the TRUE CHRISTIANS/ ELIEVERS, all the peoples of all the nations are leaded and guided by the THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs.TERRIBLE.
The aquatic environment of these three spirits of demons like frogs which guide the peoples or rule nations of all tongues in whole earth, through devilish systems, as religious systems(Catholicism, and Judaism, spiritism, budhism, islamism, among others),and also political systems,and military systems,and social and cultural systems,among others systems. In fact, Satan goes to and fro and from walking up and down among them.
2 - TERRESTRIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE EVIL SPIRITS LIKE FROGS
FIRST we need to understand that Israel is an island among the waters (Gentile nations)or in the middle of the sea, as is described above in according the Scriptures. Israel is the earth, a dry land, Genesis 1:v.10-3rd Day-or still the clay- Isaiah 64:v.8-a dry land surrounded by water on all sides or by allegory surrounded by the Gentile nations. Isaiah prophesyed saying: Is.41:1-2 -> 1-Keep silence before me,O islands; and let the people renew their strength:let them come near;then let them speak:let us come near together to Judgment.
2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east,called him to his foot,gave the nations before him,and made him rule over kings?he gave them as the dust to his Sword- Revelation 2:v.26 to 28-,and as driven stubble to his bow.(bow- Revelation 6:v.2)
This verse encapsulates what is going on in the second and third seals in what is the FOURTH seal. It adds the detail "beasts of the earth" which has been interpreted in two ways; animals or possibly plagues causes by animals. In any event the end result is one fourth of the earth dying. The question here is whether that means one quarter of the entire earth as a WHOLE; or a judgment confined to a quarter of the earth. If it is the latter it could mean that destruction was in that region and perhaps leaves room for SOME surviving it. That principle could of course occur in the world at large; but again not nit picking too much it will bring for most under their influence a fate of death by one or more of these means and hence be unprecedented in casualties.
There are some who have stated that this primarily is a racial type of conflict or focusing on one on one combat. We don't see territories mentioned or armies; weapons; etc. If there is that type of conflict; no doubt it would simply aid the Antichrist Beast to consolidate his efforts for worldwide power and domination. Psalm 83 is one possibility of what will be in the early Tribulation when Israel's IMMEDIATE neighbors are obliterated. Zepheniah 2:4 says For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Logically speaking; Antichrist will have to appear to protect Israel for the first half of the Tribulation; or the temple sacrifices; preaching of the two prophets; etc will not be able to occur. We also see his primary goal is to have worship from the whole earth and also economic control. For a time Revelation 13 shows worldwide control.
Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
To understand the first seal of Revelation which is parallel to the " Daniel 9:27" covenant; we have to gain wisdom and understanding on what exactly the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 represents. We can see a similar concept here to the Mahdi of Islam; who is said to come this exact way on a white horse and makes a seven year pact (from what I can tell is in a Hadith rather than specifically mentioned in the Koran but I don't want to focus on that here). My point is the idea of peace through force or SUBMISSION. The point in verse 24 of Daniel 8 is also translated as causing "astonishing devestation". This would likely be the scenario where he takes over the 3 nations of the 10 mentioned in Daniel 7:8. That would possibly be related to a limited nuclear conflict but could of course be a type of "blitzkrieg" that is a sudden assault rendering enemies helpless. SInce this is a power struggle that could be the emphasis here.
These passages also show judgment by God; even in false peace. Jeremiah 6:14 and 8:11 bolster what is seen in Thessalonians about false peace ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The world shall believe in "THE LIE" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and the Jews will believe in another who comes in his own name as John 5:43 shows with Jesus warning His own people with what they indeed WILL do in the future. God will use men and Satan to do His will.
23 I beheld the earth(Israel), and, lo, it was without form, and void( Genesis 1:2); and the heavens(Eph.1:3-8 combined with Genesis 1:1), and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains...they trembled, the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld,and, lo,there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
The verse 24 is an event to happen in near future, it is linked with Revelation 6:14-17, and it is linked to the opening of the sixth seal.
Get ready, there will be a WAR against the body of the red Dragon, a religious and satanic MONSTER having 7 heads, 10 horns and a terribel TAIL as was prophesied by Daniel:
Daniel 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the GOD of heaven set up a kingdom( Revelation 11:15-18), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great GOD hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Get ready
GOD bless
Meditation that brings you to Psalms 45,especially Psalms 45:6-7.
Speaking of JESUS(Ps.45:6-7)-->In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne,O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom.(It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16, about the archangel Michael who comes first,comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)
Hebrews 1:7-And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:--> 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh,O most mighty,with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John,These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)
5Thine arrows( Revelation 6:2)are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies;whereby the people fall under thee.( Revelation 11:15)
Re.11:16-17
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord GOD Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned( 1Corinthians 15:24-27and51-55-Take a look)
Re.11:18-And the nations were angry,and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth
Clearly of course God's predestined plan from before the foundation of the world for our salvation (I'll let you find the verse) shows that God knew what was going to occur. This doesn't give us a pleasant feeling; and we should be reminded the dirge said related to Lucifer's fall in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Once the angels saw all these things there was no need for validation of who God was; and there was also no further remedy-they were forever to be out of the favor of God with the ultimate destiny of hell (which was created for the Devil and his angels).
This should be a sobering reminder to man that there is a point beyond redemption once we have tasted heavenly things as Hebrews and literally hundreds of other scriptures point out in warnings of reprobate individuals and those who at first glance appear to be saved who fall away. There is a book of all living and of life.
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
Get ready
a. Isaiah 13:12: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." As you no doubt have read through Isaiah & now here from chapter 13, Isaiah prophesies against various nations (chapters 13 to 23). Here in chapter 13, it is against Babylon, where the promise is that God will call His 'separated' ones, His 'mighty' ones to "destroy the whole land"; and this happened when the Medes/Persians overthrew Babylon in 539 BC (also in Daniel 5:30,31). This army came from a far country (over 500 miles east of Babylon). As in the destruction of Babylon, so will it be in the Day of the LORD where the intensity of the destruction is described in Revelation 6:12,13. In both scenarios, the loss of mankind will be so great, God says, "I will make man more precious than fine gold...". This verse speaks of the scarcity of men (including women), that to find even one during those days (of Babylon's destruction & the Lord's coming vengeance) would be of greater discovery & value than finding gold.
b. Colossians 3:10: "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." I think your question is centered on the last part of this verse. The apostle had just written about 'putting off the old man with his deeds'. But having 'put it off', we must now "put on the new man". The two cannot happily co-exist - it's one or tother before God. And this activity is not a one time act - it is on-going. Here, this renewing is through knowledge (see Ephesians 4:24, where God creates this new man "in righteousness and true holiness"). As we grow in knowledge of God & His blessed Son, we become more like Him (His Image), just as ADAM was CREATED in God's Image. After the fall, that Image was severely marred. But "in Christ" & the Spirit's Work in us, that Image is being gradually restored - if we let His Work continue in us.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Get ready Get ready Get ready
At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him-Mat.25:verse 6.
The bridegroom tarried, all slumbered and slept-verse 5.
The bridegroom comes; and only they that are ready go in with Him to the marriage: and the door will be shut acccording verse 10.
Reemember that the disciples privately asked two important things to JESUS,saying:
1-What shall be the SIGN of thy coming?
2-and of the END of the world? (the current Devil's world)
Our Lord JESUS listed several signs that would happen previously before His coming as is written in Matthew 24:3-7,and He warned in the verse 8 saying that the signs listed were only the beginning of sorrows. Are you see that the SIGNS LISTED
of the coming of our Lord are LITERALLY be fulfilled? If not, wake up, yeah wake up and get up quickly.
Get ready. Get ready. Get ready.The Day of Vengeance arrived,the Day of the Lord.
Revelation 11:15to18
15-The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18-And the NATIONS were (will be) angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, ... and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 6:15-17
15 The kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman, and every free man,hid(will hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the GREAT Day of His wrath is come;and who shall be able to stand?
The ANGEL of the Lord,John the Baptist,warned the Jews,saying:O generation of vipers,who has warned you to flee from the WRATH to come? Luke 3:7. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: he that believes not the Son shall not see life;but the WRATH of GOD abides on him- John 3:31
This is not Jesus riding on the white horse in Revelation 6:2.
For many years it was interpreted that this was the second coming of Jesus Christ, a white horse coming, the one who's sitting on it is given a crown, and he goes out to conquer, so they said this is Jesus Christ.
But if we study it out, we realize that this is not the second coming of Christ, but rather the representation of the antichrist, the false messiahs who will come.
And here's why:
It says he comes on a white horse. It's the same as Jesus in Revelation Chapter 19. It's a white horse.
But, this one who is sitting on a white horse has a bow. In Revelation Chapter 19, Christ has a sword.
A crown was also given to this one. And the word for crown is STEPHANOS. That's the wreath that is given to the victors at the coliseum games. This is a STEPHANOS.
In Revelation Chapter 19, it says that when Christ comes at His second coming, He will be wearing many crowns, and the word for crown is DIADEM, the royal crown.
And this one will come out conquering and to conquer. And that's the antichrist taking over the one world system.
Also another point to make, it is the Lamb that's opening the seal. He's not coming back yet, not until we get into Revelation Chapter 19.
So this one riding on a white horse with a bow in his hand, he was given a crown, a STEPHANOS, not a DIADEM. And he went out to conquer. This is the antichrist. This is the false messiah that Jesus said first would come.
Hope this helps!
Revelation 6:12 And when the SIXTH seal was opened, and lo, there was a great earthquake .... Matthew 27:54.... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair ...... Matthew 27:45 ....... and the moon became as blood ...... John 19:34 .....
All this was prophesied:
Joel 2:31 The sun shall turn into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable Day of the Lord come.
Quoted in Acts 2L20
God Bless YOU!
Revelation 12:1 - 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the SUN, and the MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN became black as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth( Revelation 12:3-4), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (The TAIL of the red dragon rew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth):
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men- 2Peter 3:7).
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His wrath is come(the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium); and who shall be able to stand?
John 3:34-36
34 - He whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD: for GOD giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of GOD abideth on him.
Get ready
Why do you assume the beast in Revelation is satan or the anti-christ?
Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH beast shall be the FORTH KINGDOM on earth ....
John the Baptist came preaching the KINGDOM of GOD; the FORTH kingdom on earth, the FORTH BEAST, the last kingdom on earth.
The Kingdom of God has been on earth now for about 2000 years; CHRIST IN THE FLESH, IN YOU, his BODY, causing man TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Ezekiel 36:27 I WILL put MY SPIRIT IN YOU and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes and TO KEEP my judgements and DO THEM
Revelation 6:7 And when HE (the lamb of God) had opened the forth seal, I heard the voice of the FORTH BEAST (the lamb of God, the kingdom of God) SAY, come and see
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, and his name that sat on him WAS DEATH, and the grave followed after him, and POWER WAS GIVEN TO THEM (the image of the BEAST, the kingdom of GOD) over the forth part of the earth, to KILL with the SWORD (the word of God), and with HUNGER (no bread of life), and with DEATH, and with the BEAST of the EARTH (those that carry the mark of the BEAST: the kingdom of God.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth HELPED the WOMAN, and the earth OPENED her MOUTH (DEATH and the grave), and swallowed up the FLOOD (people, tongues and nations) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Psalms 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the INSTRUMENTS of DEATH; he ORDAINED his ARROWS against the persecutors.
Jeremiah 51:29 THOU (those that carry the MARK) are my battle axe and WEAPONS of WAR (arrows, the word of GOD); for with THEE (the saints, the BODY of Christ, the IMAGE of the BEAST) WILL I break in pieces the NATIONS, and with THEE will I destroy kingdoms.
Revelation 2:27 ...to him that overcometh, WILL I give POWER over the NATIONS .....
God Bless You!
We must go forth and make disciples and reach those who need to be saved. Family, friends, any and all - GOD will bless our efforts. GOD to shine and bless our efforts.
Amen! Praying for all who are this forum. August 27, 2023
The sword; famine and pestilence seen in judgments 2-4 in Revelation 6 fit in with a pattern set by God to judge Israel since most of their history was in a rebellious state despite being called to be an example to the nations ( Isaiah 49:6) and set apart ( Jeremiah 2:2-3). The pattern of sword; famine and pestilence can therefore be seen in Jeremiah 14:11-12 as well as other passages in the same book; and it found in Ezekiel 14:21; Deuteronomy 32:24; and other passages. Interestingly enough; Deuteronomy 4:30 mentions tribulation AND the last days; opening the door for repentance on man's part for God to turn back on some of these judgments (perhaps for individuals sealed by God or physically protected at that time and/or during the Trumpet judgments).
Therefore; this time before the Book is opened there appears to be room for repentance; although nothing said for the unregenerate where one quarter die at that time ( Rev. 6:8). It would appear since Hades is in Revelation 6:8 that everyone killed in this manner were unregenerate. The only question is if these are concentrated in a quarter of the earth or it involves one fouth of the world in general. We should also be soberly reminded here that many will not even physically survive to the point when the Beast is empowered and implements the mark ( Rev. 11:7) apparently after the martyrdom of the 2 Prophets and subsequent Resurrection at the 6th Trumpet ( Rev. 11:14).
The Antichrist at this time will rise to power ( Revelation 6:1-2) and begin to subdue and conquer nations. Daniel 8:9 shows how this "little horn" gains power; no doubt through superior intellect and intrigue ( Daniel 11:21). Nations no doubt are pitted so that they will through internal strife be conformed to the 10 nations ruled under the Beast after their sovereignty is destroyed.
I will delve into the fifth and sixth seal in my next sequel.
Agape. RICH P
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
Yet, as you wrote, "Our core values we know for sure but secondary issues we don't", which is what we need to emphasize & build up one another on, rather than on matters we know little or nothing about. Yet, it's always an interesting exercise to ponder even over such things. Blessings.
No doubt a repeated theme; it seems prescient to once again drive home the point that "peace and security" will be the mantra bringing in the Antichrist to launching his campaign to take over the world. ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The "bloodless coup" which Revelation 6:1 seems to indicate will be accompanied by a man of intrigue understanding "dark sentences" ( Daniel 8:23). That verse is also packed with the description of all world rulers at the peak of corruption at the time this event occurs. These verses indicate occult origins; which the reader will note was prevalent particularly with Adolf Hitler in World War two.
No doubt like a chameleon this man will be able to give an appearance that will appeal to men of all audiences. As to the amount of success he will have with his military resume before this time is somewhat speculative; it would seem from Daniel 7:8 that his description as the "little horn" means that he comes from relative obsurity; then suddenly starts controlling the world scene. The Abraham accords which encompass dividing the land for gain ( Dan. 11:39) through massive economic payments and redistribution certainly seem like they will be the catalyst or at least one major component of the Daniel 9:27 confirming of this covenant.
Just how he will pull off explaining the Resurrection of the dead and the Rapture is subject to speculation. It is also uncertain exactly when the first seal event occurs; it seems that it could be immediately after the Rapture; but perhaps there will be a time of transition beforehand just to alleviate the inevitable chaos; if indeed my eschatological view is correct on the Pre-Trib rapture.
Resistance on a human level based on the previous scriptural references clearly is going to be futile (see also Rev. 13:4). No doubt the full power will come after the assassination and possession (I contend with the angel from the abyss Rev. 9:11.)
see Zech 11:17.
According to Genesis 4:15; a mark set upon Cain was to cause vengeance to anyone who would attempt to take his life. Compare this to the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13 and we find some interesting parallels.
First; Satan was a "murderer from the beginning." ( John 8:44). It is no surprise that the first child of Adam was to be attacked after Adam and Eve fell. Having failed the test of God he let temptation rule over him and slayed Abel his brother. Satan is also said to steal and destroy ( John 10:10) along with his lying. We see the progeny of Adam and Eve being destroyed; along with stealing from the parents being able to give an inheritance and Abel receiving it.
Later on in Genesis 4:24 Lamech tries to gain vengeance by his declaration of seventy times seventy for himself for his own violent actions. Kind of like the opposite of forgiveness for the same in Matthew 18:21-22.
The apparent resurrection of Antichrist from a deadly wound as well as being able to kill the two prophets that tormented men will inspire him to declare indestructibility as well as being able to effectively fight against God. He will likely convince men that he can live forever by merging with AI; and likely the DNA of the Nephilim or something to that affect will be part of that plan; as it was in Genesis 6 when all the descendants of men were destroyed for that reason (see Genesis 6:8-9 on Noah being perfect in his generations). Hence at that time we saw no repentance except for Noah; his wife; his 3 sons and their wives.
Whatever the case men will be unredeemable once they take the mark ( Revelation 14:9 and other passages). That will be the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 where people willingly reject the truth and believe The Lie.
The verse on those who dwell on the earth ( Revelation 11:10; also see Revelation 6:10 and other passages) indicates the sea of lost humanity. Revelation 13:8 concludes this for all unsaved.
I made a mistake when I said 6th bowl judgment. I meant to say, "By the time we get to the 6th seal judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17)."
(Part 3):
You say that the wrath of God is very different from the great tribulation. I disagree with that. I believe that the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation. In Revelation, we see the seal judgments and the bowl judgments. By the time we get to the 6th bowl judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17). Then we have the description of the 7 bowl judgments beginning with Revelation 15:1 and going through revelation 16:21. Revelation 15:1 calls it the wrath of God.
The 7th bowl judgment is poured out at the end of Revelation Chapter 16. This happens before the second coming of Christ. So, the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years, not after the second coming of Christ.
Jimbob, hopefully I have answered your questions, whether you agree with my answers or not. Now to be fair, I would like a turn to ask you a few questions. You said that you believe we are living in the beginning of sorrows time period right now! great tribulation will start soon. Also, you honestly believe we are much farther along in the Lastdays timeline than most True Believers think we are.
I believe I mentioned that we have been living in the "last days" for about 2,000 years now.
But, my first question is: Do you believe that the "beginning of sorrows" and "birth pains" are both referring to the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation?
If you believe the beginning of sorrows is the first 3-1/2 years, how far into this time frame do you believe we are in, or when did you first start believing we were in this time period?
If we are in the "beginning of sorrows" right now, would you say that Christ is coming back within the next 7-years?
Last question: If Christ does not come back within this time frame, how would you explain that?
If you choose to answer my question, I wish to thank you ahead of time. Blessings!
Jimbob,
2 Timothy 2:11 is the creed for the servant. When we see the phrase "it is a faithful saying" in the New Testament, it is literally, "the word is faithful." It was a phrase used in the New Testament church to say that these phrases were going around various churches, coming from various teachers and apostles that were not found in scripture, but were considered to be the word of God at that time. There was no New Testament. So, whenever a teacher says this is a faithful saying, it means this has been established in all the churches from the apostles and others, and it can be considered to be the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:12-13 should be taken together. If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the creed for a servant. Whatever hardship I must go through to serve Christ, if I be dead with Him, if I suffer, I'm going to live with Him and I'm also going to reign with Him. I've entered into the sufferings of Christ, not my sufferings, so that as I identify with His life and sufferings now, one day I'm going to reign with Him.
In Matthew 24, if I begin with Verse 1, it is easy to see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, not Gentiles, and not the church. Matthew 24:9 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." These are to the Jews. We are not suffering, nor will we suffer any of these things. The reason I say this is because Jesus is going to give direction as to what they (Jews) are to do about it. This lines up of with the fourth horse, the pale horse in Revelation 6:7-8 where death comes. He says, they will kill you: and you should be hated of all nations for my name sake.
As for God's Wrath, I agree that it is poured out because of the wickedness of unbelievers & for unbelievers only. But the matter that we discussed earlier was, 'is the Great Tribulation synonymous with God's Wrath, or merely a greater outpouring of horrors that comes on the whole world?' I shared that the Great Tribulation appears to be God's Wrath (as shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 & beyond) & we read this in Revelation 6:17 & Revelation 15:1, which fall upon men over a long period of time. And if it be God's Wrath from the time that His Restrainer is removed & the anti-Christ is revealed, then the Church (the true children of God) are snatched away before this time of torment.
Anyway Tammy, I see that our differences largely depend on the definition of these biblical terms & the verses that support them - hence the nature of the pre or post trib position are both valid depending on how we define these terms with their Scriptures. GBU.
But you've directed my reading to Revelation chapter 14, in which you see "that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest". From Revelation 14:6, we read of an angel arriving in the heavens with "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth". And then further down in verses 12 & 13, we read of "the patience of the saintsthat keep the commandments of God". I assume that these are the verses that convinces you that all believers (saints) will still be here, i.e. the Church pre- & during the Great Tribulation. Yet, if we take the angelic presentation of the Gospel (obviously not needed for the Church, but for the unbelievers at that time of anti-Christ's reign), then maybe the saints of verse 12 are those who were converted through the delivered Gospel, the Lord giving these others opportunity to repent & believe, who may already have taken the beast's mark, and to be saved. Just a thought.
And finally, verses 14 to 20 show the harvesting of the Earth. But who are harvested? In my reading, the harvest is directed to the haters & rejecters of God & are forthwith cast into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (verse 20). Now, even if the order of events may seem unclear, at least those whom the Lord is referring to, is clear. And yes, both Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 6:17 declare that these sufferings do come from God (from His Wrath) & not resulting from natural occurrences that we see at present; that this time IS God's Wrath being poured out & not something felt at the end. So will the present Church be saved from this Wrath?
I'm aware that a few who have written on this & hold to the post-trib position, understand that God's Wrath is only poured out at the latter part, i.e. a post-trib suffering only to the unbelievers. But I ask, can it be that God's Wrath poured out is actually seen in the Great Tribulation? When we look at those explicit passages in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 (specifically on the heavenly appointed judgements, shown as the Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl Judgements), how should we understand this narrative given to us? If in the post-trib position, these judgements probably happen in very quick succession as part of God's Wrath (post-tribulation). If in the pre-trib camp, then these judgements happen over a period of time, even during anti-Christ's reign, & culminating at the final outpouring of God's Wrath, after which Jesus returns for the battle at Megiddo.
The reasons that I believe that Revelation 6 to 11 declare God's Wrath, rather than a much later time, is due to the nature of the sufferings, the origin of those calamities, & Revelation 6:17 itself declares, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These calamities appear to me as much greater than what we today have seen in history past or are seeing now.
part 1
That's a good point you make,
However, Here's a few issues with that view,
1) The day of the Lord is mentioned 31 times in the bible, 26 times in the Old Testament and 5 in the New Testament.
To my knowledge nowhere in scripture it mentions any removal of the saints.
Here's a few.
Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament ( Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages ( Revelation 6:15-17; 16:14).
In 2 Peter 3:3-18 we are told the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, and holding back his wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice something in verses 11 and 12.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ITS A QUESTION!!
The answer is NO!
Here's what were looking for;
Verses 13-16.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
See part 2 and the second issue I have with that view.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.