Discuss Revelation 7 Page 3

The Bible is not about "what ifs"

It is clear that after these 144,000 are marked; that they are not affected by the remaining seal and trumpet judgments before they are taken up to heaven. ( Rev. 14:1). Since they are standing on Mt. Sion (the spiritual true Mt. Zion in heaven) as opposed to the martyrs under the throne apparently awaiting resurrection bodies ( Rev. 6:9-11) it would appear that they are as the scripture indicates taken to heaven as "redeemed" firstfruits ( Rev. 14:2-4). So therefore; it appears that they are raptured; as firstfruits would include O.T. saints (some of which came out of the grave after the Resurrection of Christ; and the church possibly also including the rest of the godly O.T. saints at different intervals). It would certainly appear with their sealing that it could encompass not dying but I'm not sure that can be proven from that verse. In theory; it is even possible that they could be like the 2 prophets who die and are resurrected about the same time (that could I suppose mean they are all killed at one time and subsequently resurrected rather than raptured). That's the only possibility I see.

It is rather controversial the timing of the O.T. saints (which in the book of Daniel seems to occur around the midpoint of the Trib) and that of the whole true believing church (which occurs in conjunction and immediately preceeding the Rapture as I see it). Again; we do have Enoch and Elijah who were taken out of this world; although it appears Elijah has been preserved and never given a Resurrected Body; and perhaps if Enoch is the second witness according to the Hebrews 9:27 principle he also was preserved; but possibly he was raptured. And the saints coming out of the graves was the beginning of a series of events between the Resurrection (Christ being first of firstfruits) and the rest of the firstfruits such as the 144,000.

That's my best take on it; remember most will die in the Trib; a few will survive physically until and through the 1000 years.

Walter:

What if there is not a COLLECTIVE rapture of the church?

Isaiah 27:12 ....and ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, ye children of Israel.

What if the 144,000 (symbolic, not literal) are the Old Testament Saints that were resurrected with Christ?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

God Bless you.

I have a question. Are the 144,000 raptured during the Great Tribulation, or are they killed?

Amen Juarez. The problem is, many in the modern church haven't read Daniel or about Bible prophesy well. The "no rapture" or "the rapture is simply the 2nd coming" even replacement theology which is like a plague in this discussion all come from heretic doctrines.

One of the strongest proofs of a Pretribulation Rapture is the event of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 9:27 and then again by the Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:15. This is the event when the Antichrist will claim to be god from the temple in Jerusalem, and demand that the world worship him or be killed. From this blasphemous event, it will be exactly 3 1/2 years until the Lord's SECOND COMING ( 2nd Thessalonians 2:4).

Since the Bible plainly states that no man knows WHEN the Rapture will occur ( Matthew 25:13), we must conclude that it will be a Pretribulation Rapture, because we DO KNOW it will be exactly 3 1/2 years between the abomination of desolation and the SECOND COMING.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-18, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

All Christians will be removed from the earth at the Rapture. However, the Bible teaches that sinners will be saved after the Rapture, during the Tribulation Period ( Revelation 7:14). We read in the Book of Revelation that the Beast will make war against the saints ( Revelation 13:7). These will be people saved during the 7-year Tribulation.

Ephesians 4:11-12

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

Although I sincerely believe two of these were fulfilled my the perfect which is Revelation but evangelists, pastors and teachers remain in the post-apostolic/early church. There have always been women evangelists and teachers. Now, bishop (not referring to what catholics or lutherans may define of that role) was a type of pastor; that's where things have gotten out of order a bit in modern churches. When the role of bishop/pastor is held by a woman...it does make me scratch my head a bit. Why?

1 Timothy 3:2

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

"...the husband of one wife..." That cannot be translated to mean woman. The word man can as in Genesis sometimes the word man was in reference to mankind (which includes woman). But if a woman says, "I'm the pastor of the church." My question is, "then you must also be the husband of one wife?" Now, sometimes a pastor (husband & wife) lead a ministry jointly and the husband dies...I've seen the wife step up and I don't really see a problem with that. What I see a problem with are the Joyce Meyers' types out there who believe they are the head in God's order. They weren't called to that role but they self appointed. Regardless, it's not scriptural.

If God calls you to do it, He will Equip You to do it.

You need to try to live a life without controversy. You will pray for the Holy Spirit to anoint you for the work.

Without the Anointing, there is no Harvest. Without a solid Prayer Life with fasting, the seed will fail.

God will hold us responsible to teach and preach THE WORD of God. Revelation 22. It's a serious thing to be a Shepherd to Gods flock. They get born again, and you bring them up like children. They grow from baby to adult under Jesus's watch.

Try street ministry first. I did it all wrong of course. Then the Lord said to me: are you through doing it your way? I went from tears of failed efforts to the greatest harvests I could imagine.

But you have to get the newborns into the care of a shepherd (pastor). They carry the babes in arms and prayer. They guide, rescue, teach, correct, encourage in difficulties. Grow the up into a spiritual man or woman. To an age, when they themselves are reproducing Christ.

Are you ready for the task? God will make a way for you, no matter the obstacles, if He has called you.

Street preaching is a whole different call. It is not being. Shepherd. You guide them to a church who will carry them to maturity. You need to work within the church in any function: childrens church, adult women groups. Singles and married groups. Do tasks in the church. Like phone ministry, visiting elderly at home, sick at home, organize and help benevolence ministries. Churches always need helpers.

If that is beneath you, you're not ready to shepherd.

I'm not criticizing. Just telling the truth. I personally did myself. Following Jesus's steps all the way. I did all the stuff no one else volunteered for.

It was a season. My true love is street ministry.

1Timothy 2 :12

Are women permitted to preach the word according to the bible?

Dear GiGi that happened in 1949. Jews were exiled from their own country since Romans destroyed Jerusalem (Jews revolted twice against the Roman rule). Solomon's Temple was destroyed too. The city was rebuilt but Jews were prohibited to enter the city untill the 7th centuary AD. In 1949 after WW2, that land was given by the British to Jews to re-enhabit it and the new country of Israel was formed and Jews from all over the world started to gather in their ancient land. At that time God's promise that He will gather them to their land was fulfiled.

Is there any other promise left for them to be fulfilled ?

In the NT Paul talks about his nation, what is going to happen in the last days. He doesn't say that a new country will be formed with Christ as their leader that will rule on the whole earth. But he says that all Israel will believe in Christ " after the fulness of gentiles be come in", Romans 11:25-27. After 'the fulness of gentiles be come in' means that no other gentile is left to be saved. When is that going to happen?

Lets go to Revelation

The 144000 saved at that time are the first Jews to be saved, Revelation 7:4-8. Then the rest of these people will be saved. Question. If salvation for Israel starts during antichrist's time, during the great tribulation (Its obvious that these things happen during tribulation because in the next verses 9-17 we read about the ones in Heaven that were slaughterd by antichrist) when is that time that Jesus with Israel rules on earth? Doesn't make sense, does it? In Revelation 12:1-6 we read about that woman that was sent by God to the dessert. Who is that? It is obvious it is Israel, see verse 1. Antichrist will go after Israel and God will protect them. There is nothing else left for Israel untill the fight of Armagedon. Is it that Jesus will rule on earth with Israel during the next 1000 years? No, Revelation 20:4-6 talks about those that didn't receive the mark and were slaughtered. End of time, nothing else left.

Tribulation definition online: "a cause of great trouble or suffering"

Deuteronomy 4:29,30,31, 1Samuel 26:24, Matthew 13:20-21, John 16:33, Acts 14:22, Romans 5:3, Romans 8:35-39, Romans 12:12, 2Corinthians 1:3-5, 1Thessalonians 3:4, 2Thessalonians 1:6, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9,10,22,

There seems to be a difference between tribulation & The great Tribulation,

Matthew 24:21, Romans 2, Revelation 7:14,

Matthew 24:3-51, Mark 13:4-37,

Sorry about the Revelation 11:7 typo. It should read like below:

-Look who the 5th seal saints were told to wait for before He judges the earth. Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 11:7

What group is resurrected first, at the seventh trumpet?

Revelation 7:1-8 occurs before the six trumpet, before the day of the Lord, when the 144,000 saints are sealed. Continuing, Revelation 7:9-15, where now it's the seventh trumpet, Revelation 11:15, and the same sealed saints have been resurrected, and are now standing in heaven. We know it's the saints because we're told they came out of the great tribulation.

(same scene, different angle)

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;*10,000 x 10,000 = 100,000+ remaining = 144,000

Look at the moment the saints are resurrected? Revelation 11:11-12

Look who the 5th seal saints were told to wait for before He judges the earth. Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 11-7

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul was not talking to the general population, he was talking to his kind, first fruits, fellow elite, saints, dead and alive. The scriptures bear this out, who they are, and is always up for debate if you think you are a first fruit.

Hi Virginia,

The Jesuits were not founded until the 1500s, some involve the Jesuits with end-time teaching, with the black Pope, and more, and their past is not filled with a lot of good. The Sabbath is the seventh day, keeping the Sabbath is more than going to a church on that day, Exodus 20:8-11.

Constantine created the earliest Sunday law known to history in 321A.D. The main reason was the conflicts between the Jews and the Christians and since the pagans did their thing on Sunday. Constantine claimed to be Christian, but this law does not read like it.

"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost". Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3.

Council of Laodicea -364 AD named Sunday the Lord's Day. One reason was to stop the Sabbath-keeping tendencies in the Eastern Roman Empire. The Council of Laodicea produced sixty rulings, or canons, covering a broad range of topics and punishments.

Many worship on Sunday because the day Jesus resurrected was on the first day of the week and some on Saturday. We are also told not to judge, Colossians 2:16 read all of chapter 2. Every day is a good day to worship in the spirit and truth, John 4:23-24.

Some point to the phrase "four corners of the earth" that appear in the Bible. Isaiah 11:12 Revelation 7:1, and Daniel 4:11 is said the earth would have to be flat to see the tree, and more, but even if people in the past believed the earth was flat, in my opinion, the Bible does not teach that.

God bless,

RLW

It quite literally is impossible for the Earth to be flat. Flat earthers attempt to twist scripture out of context.

Here are a few:

Matthew 4:8 Job 28:24 Job 37:3 and quite often Revelation 7:1 the four corners of the earth.

Simply an old sailors myth? Afraid the ships would fall off of the earth when the horizon line was reached. Fortunately, they just kept sailing and it never happened.

We know that science changes daily but physics plays a large role in your question.

If the earth were flat would different regions be experiencing different seasons? Winter, summer.

Do planes fly around the earth or do they go one way and then have to turn around to get back. Satellites orbiting. Different views of stars. Is New York city seen from hundreds of miles away. If the earth is flat what's on the other side. If the flat what satellite image shows the "thin ends" or sides of the earth.(its a globe, sphere, round, spinning) No NASA didn't photoshop every single image.

Let's dig in and pray fervently for the world right now. Should you feel burdened to do so. We are a few bad decisions away from seeing a "flattened earth" if you follow.

How wonderful is it to Not know all of the workings and mysteries of God.

Hopefully this helped in some manner.

Ty

Yes, Matthew 2:2, Luke 23:51, John 4:22, John 8:31, John 11:45, Acts 14:1, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12, Paul himself was,is Acts 26:4, Revelation 7:5,

John 3:15-21, Matthew 25:31-46,

Hey Jamie,

My understanding is, this is the deception of deceptions and will cause the great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Part of this deception is that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are taught as being the same thing. We must understand the wrath of God comes after the second coming of Jesus not before. Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27.

It developed in the 17th Century, and it quickly led to an understanding that the rapture of the church would be an event separate from and before the second coming of Christ. It was made popular by John Darby, and he is thought by many to be the originator but not. C.I. Scofield, with the study bible with footnotes, helped promote this doctrine of man. It started as pre-tribulation and still mostly believed in.

We as humans sometimes look for the easy way out, and many preachers oblige to fill the money plate that makes merchandise of people, 2 Peter 2:3. Scripture does not say we will be spared tribulation it says the opposite, Acts 14:22 John 16:33. It is debated that although all Christians go through some tribulation, there is yet a great tribulation to come those true believers will not have to undergo. So, who are these, Revelation 7:13-14 Revelation 20:4

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The mark and saving our physical life is the temptation, that so many don't believe they will be here to face, that is the great deception. Keep from does not mean we will be spared from being killed it means to spiritually guard (watch), keep intact, Hebrews 3:6. The believers in Jesus in the past were not spared being beheaded, burnt on a stake, fed to the lions, why should we.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Rose.

Thanks for your reply,

Here's what I interpret out of the verses you have given. When I look at Revelation 14:1. I take this to be the same 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:4. "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

This group here is 144,000 out of Israel being sealed for service.

And Revelation 7:5-8, reaffirms that these are all Israelites. "No Gentiles"

The group in Rev. 5.9. is said to be the redeemed out of EVERY Nation of all sorts of people of the earth.

Revelation 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; " This group is unnumbered "

Also the locations are different.

In Revelation 5 they're around the throne of God,

In Revelation 14:1. They're on mount zion. "Jerusalem. Psalms 2:6.

You said,

"(God said he chose )only 144,000 to reign."

I'm sorry but I don't see where " HE SAID HE CHOSE only "144,000 to reign on earth or in Heaven.

I see that you have a different view.

I just wanted to share mine.

God bless.

SolaScript,

This isn't an argument I like, simply because we are not getting the whole picture, it's a dream state in Plato's cave.

I'm dismayed to report that your context lacks continuity:

Revelation 6 describes subsequent seals, through sixth seal events that lead up to and are actually kicks off (vs 12) the day of the Lord. You must have got mixed up here, made a mistake in scripture selection.

Revelation 7:13-14 These are the 7th trumpet saints, resurrected from the great tribulation and standing in heaven, they were previously getting sealed in verses 1-8.

Matthew 24:29-31 This sequence tells of the 6th trumpet (vs 29) and the 7th trumpet 2nd coming of Christ (vs 30). They are 2 separate events in time.

Isaiah 13:9-11 This is a classic 6th trumpet, day of the Lord depiction.

Revelation 7:15-17 OK, this is a millennium scripture.

The earth was not ever fully destroyed, and that is the absolute reason why Jesus intervenes on our affairs. Jesus returns when he does to stop anti-christ's feuding army from completely blowing up the earth. God lures the beast to Armageddon, where originally the beast was going to fight the false prophet to the death, until Christ showed up. If Jesus didn't save the earth, then whats the point of a savior? He didn't die on the cross in vain. I strongly believe you are reading this wrong, and limited sources doesn't help much.

Daniel 7:12 will manifest itself in our realm, like anti-christ will manifest himself after the falling away. The other beasts are nations, and peoples, not figments of God's imagination. These characters are real nations and real people, doing the Lord's will. The same on earth as in heaven, so above, so below. We are soon moving on to a new age, and changes are on the way.

Please see these references: Mark 9:1-7, Matthew 17:2, Matthew 28:3, Luke 9:29, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 1:14, Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10, Ecclesiastes 9:8, Revelation 3:4,5, Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 20:11, Isaiah 1:18, Revelation 6:2,11, Revelation 9:18, Daniel 11:35, Revelation 4:4, Daniel 7:9, Revelation 2:17, Daniel 12:10,

John 4:35,

But Also : Genesis 40:16-23, Joel 1:7, Leviticus 13, Revelation 15:6,

Hopefully these are helpful.

Hi Tim. Today, we use that expression to describe the full expanse of the globe, or if people are coming for a conference from the 'four corners of the Earth', we easily understand its meaning: that almost all countries are sending out people/delegates for that meeting.

In the Bible (Old Testament) we see this expression often ( Ezekiel 7:2; Isaiah 11:12) giving us the Hebrew word, kanaph, which in this usage, means 'extremities'. In the New Testament ( Revelation 7:1) the Greek word is 'gonia' & here it means 'angle, corner, division'. So the 'angels standing on the four corners of the Earth' seem to represent the division of the earth into four, and each angel covering the quadrant assigned to him, holding back the winds. Today, we would use the four points of the compass to describe the expanse of the Earth ( Luke 13:29), though the meaning in those days was that 'people would come from where the sun rises, from where it sets, from where the North wind comes, & from the direction of the South wind'. All these speak of the 'four corners of the Earth', never implying that the Earth has actual corners, which could never be identified anyway, no matter how hard man searched for them.

2 Chronicles 25:7-8, Matthew 13:37-52, Matthew 18:2-14, he warned some Matthew 21:41-44, Matthew 22:1-14, Matthew 23:13-39, Matthew 25:31-46, John 8:13-39,

& sealed in The last days Revelation 7:2-17, Hopefully these are all helpful

Genesis 6:5-8, Genesis 6:11-13, Genesis 6:19-21, yet HE preserved life. Genesis 9:9-17, John 3:15-16,

You don't need to look far to see disregard for life of babies, abortion kills millions & who spares a single child from it? Spade & nueter goes on constantly of animals destroying seed before reproduction. Crimes, injustice, lies, greed etc. If it was so wicked & coucorrupt then? I don't want to imagine. )=

Psalms 139, Psalms 111, Matthew 9:26, Matthew 14:14, Isaiah 53:5, 1 Peter 2:24, Revelation 7:16-17,

Ok Rick went back to Revelation 3 about the churches that think they are clean Please Check it out as to our original thread.God bless keep the light on we never know when he is coming back for us! and Revelation 7:14

Rosa,

Dan was one of the tribes that committed idolatry. And God's judgment came on the tribes that committed idolatry.

Their land will be returned to them at the second coming of Christ.

So when you see the several lists in the Old Testament of the tribes, they'll line up differently than the 12 tribes that are listed in Revelation chapter 7.

Because of the tribes that were under the judgment of God for idolatry, they were not sealed.

But at the second coming of Christ in Revelation Chapter 19, the land and the boundaries will then be returned to the tribes that were under judgment. They are only under judgment up to the second coming of Christ.

There are, I'm sure, many intelligent answers that will be given in response to your inquiry. Some will be based partly in scripture while others are will be pure speculation. However, if you diligently research each explanation given you will find that none of them seem to completely add up and fall short. For instance, why are they listed out of order? They are not out of birth order anywhere else that I'm aware of. Did God have a moment of forgetfulness? Was it an error? Did God decide to change things up a bit from His established M.O.? The answer is "NO". God does not make mistakes and He does not change so the "logical" explanation is that there must be a reason for the missing names and them being listed out of chronological birthing order rather than being listed in order from eldest to youngest as per everywhere else in the Bible that I'm aware of.

Hebrew names in the Bible of people and places use a precise form of onomastics and transliteration, i.e. Joshua = Yhosua = "Jehovah or YHVH is salvation". Many examples are provided all throughout scripture (ex. Gen 16:14) Now, if you take this fact based scriptural knowledge and apply it to God's Word all throughout you will find the truth you seek. When applied properly to Gen 5 you will see God foretells the plan of salvation through Jesus (actual Hebrew name Yhosua). Now apply what you have just learned to Rev 7 and you will discover that the whole, complete and logical answer to your question is a veiled account of the Church being given as the bride of Christ a 6 thousand year struggle coming to an end, reproach being taken away and God turning to Israel to redeem her (as scripturally promised). Now at this point using this fact based scriptural approach the following verses from Rev 7:13-17 should suddenly become obvious as to what just happened. You will find the cipher key starts in Gen 29:32 and ends in Gen 43:51. Just organize them as ordered in Rev 7.

P.S. - 6000 from creation is upon us. Be blessed

Here are scriptures, hopefully these are helpful :

Genesis 49:16-18, Judges 18:1-31, 1 Kings 12:30, Amos 8:14, 2 Chronicles 16:4, 1 Kings 15:20, Jeremiah 8:14-17, * Deuteronomy 29:1-29,

Replaced by Manasseh, * Genesis 48:1-6, Numbers 26:28, Psalms 77:15,

You may want to google some on tis topic. What I have read is that tribe of Dan turned from Yahweh and set up a golden calf in his land of inheritance, turning the people away from the True God to idolatry. I encourage you to research more on this. I would be interested in what you find out.

I do think the mark of the beast will be obviously brought to bear when the antichrist is already in power and people will know that it is is mark.

In Revelation 7 why was not Dan mention as one of the 144 thousand?