Discuss Romans 11 Page 2

I do agree Lbooth1955 that we're not too far apart in this issue, though I honestly thought that your understanding of Paul's view of salvation by grace alone (without the need for water baptism) was what you believed in. But you state here that you "don't believe it's wrong to be baptized"; so apologies, I seem to have misunderstood your stance on this.

I too believe in the various dispensations as seen in the Bible (though probably not considered a die-hard dispensationalist), but when it comes to the era of Grace (in the NT) and some argue 'wasn't Grace also shown by God in the OT?', I understand the Grace seen in the NT was apart from the Law, whereas God was still gracious to those under the Law in the OT. And the Grace we receive today, is not only apart from the Law given to Israel, but can never be complemented by any works we could do to make it more efficacious. Romans 11:5,6. Thanks again brother for your time given to this subject; I've found it very provoking and productive. Every blessing.

Hey Lbooth1955,

All of Jesus's life was about fulfilling the law and prophecy; it is to the Jew first and then the rest of the world, Romans 1:16, Romans 2:9-10. Jesus clearly said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and He instructed His disciples to do the same, Matthew 10:6, Matthew 15:24. Jesus spoke to them in parables so they would not understand and hear, and be healed, Matthew 13:13-15.

You are correct that, as a nation, they would have been able to receive Jesus as the Messiah if they had repented, and then the kingdom could have been established at that time. However, God knew their hearts. They were expecting Jesus to set up the kingdom at that time, including the apostles. They asked Jesus if He was going to establish it then, Acts 1:6.

Their final rejection is shown when they cried out loudly and covered their ears, Acts 7:57. Though many disagree, this also fulfills the last seven years in the prophecy of Daniel 9, which many associate with the end times and the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. This gospel of grace is offered to Jew or Greek, and unto the whole world.

There is no difference between the Jew and any other person of any nation, Romans 10:12. It took the apostles some time to understand this, as shown by Peter's reluctance and his dream. It may not be in our Bible, but I believe they all understood God's plan. This Kingdom will be established when Jesus returns, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, Romans 11:25.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Friends,

My final thoughts on the matter of Kingdom message compared to the Salvation through Faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.

The "kingdom message" preached by Peter and the other apostles-particularly in the early chapters of Acts-was primarily directed to Israel and centered on the offer of the earthly Messianic kingdom promised in the Old Testament. This message called the nation to repentance and faith in Jesus as the risen Messiah and King, with the expectation that if Israel as a nation responded, Christ would return and establish His kingdom on earth ( Acts 3:19-21). Peter's sermons (e.g., Acts 2 and 3) emphasized Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy, His resurrection, and His role as the promised Davidic King. The apostles preached "the gospel of the kingdom," which was consistent with what Jesus proclaimed during His earthly ministry ( Matthew 4:17; Luke 9:1-6).

However, this message was rejected by the nation of Israel, culminating in the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It is after this national rejection that God raised up Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles ( Acts 9; Romans 11:13). Through Paul, God revealed the "mystery" of the body of Christ-a previously hidden truth ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27). The body of Christ is not a continuation of Israel's kingdom program but a new entity in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile ( Galatians 3:28). Paul's message was the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24), focused not on an earthly kingdom, but on salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, with heavenly blessings and a heavenly hope.

In summary, the kingdom message was not meant for the body of Christ. It was directed to Israel, offering a literal kingdom on earth. The body of Christ, a new creation revealed through Paul, operates under a different gospel and program-centered on grace, not law or kingdom promises.

Blessings to all!

Brother Jesse,

We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.

This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.

Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?

How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.

James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.

Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.

Thanks again, brother,

God bless,

RLW

Paul is the only apostle who gives detailed revelation about the rapture-the catching away of the Body of Christ-a doctrine unique to his epistles and part of the "mystery" revealed to him by the risen Christ ( Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:1-9; 1 Corinthians 15:51). Here are the key passages and what Paul says:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - The Classic Rapture Passage

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

(vv. 16-17, KJV)

Paul describes:

A resurrection of dead believers.

A snatching away (Greek: harpazo, Latin: rapturo) of the living believers.

A meeting in the air-not Christ coming to Earth (contrast with Second Coming).

A comforting hope unique to the Body of Christ (v. 18).

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - A Mystery Revealed

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"

Paul explains:

This was previously hidden-a mystery not found in prophecy.

There will be a transformation of living saints.

The event is instantaneous and involves receiving glorified bodies.

Philippians 3:20-21 - Our Heavenly Hope

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour... Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"

Paul emphasizes:

Our hope is not earthly (kingdom), but heavenly.

Christ will give believers a glorified body like His own.

Summary:

Paul teaches that the rapture is a mystery revealed only to him for the Body of Christ. It is a pre-judgment event ( 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), sudden, and distinct from Christ's return to Earth in judgment (as in Matthew 24 or Revelation). This catching away is the blessed hope ( Titus 2:13) for those saved by grace through faith apart from the Law ( Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Bible speaks for itself, no dictionary or man's concordance needed.

The apostle Paul is uniquely identified in Scripture as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ. In Romans 11:13, Paul declares, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." Unlike the Twelve Apostles, who were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6), Paul was sent by the risen, glorified Christ from heaven ( Acts 9:15; Galatians 1:11-12) to proclaim a new message-not the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24). Paul alone speaks of the "Church which is His Body" ( Ephesians 1:22-23), a new creation made up of both Jew and Gentile, united by faith and baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:14-16).

The Body of Christ was a mystery "kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25) and not revealed until Paul. He was given this revelation by Christ directly ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27) and is the only apostle who teaches its doctrines-such as salvation by grace through faith without works ( Ephesians 2:8-9), the heavenly position of believers ( Colossians 3:1-4), and the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Paul calls himself the "wise masterbuilder" who laid the foundation for this present dispensation of grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:10). The other apostles, including Peter, recognized Paul's distinct apostleship and agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision, while Paul went to the Gentiles ( Galatians 2:7-9).

No other apostle is identified in Scripture as the apostle of the Body of Christ. Only Paul received the full revelation of the mystery, the doctrines, and the heavenly calling of the Church. Therefore, Paul stands alone as the God-appointed apostle to the Body of Christ.

Did the 12 apostles of Christ fulfill Matthew 28:19? Read Carefully!

There is no definitive historical evidence in Scripture showing that all 12 apostles of Christ traveled throughout the entire known world to preach the gospel. However, church tradition, early writings, and some historical sources provide accounts-though often inconsistent or unverifiable-of where individual apostles may have gone after Pentecost.

Here's a breakdown:

Biblical Record

In the book of Acts, only a few apostles are mentioned in detail after Pentecost:

Peter: Preaches in Jerusalem, visits Samaria, and goes to Joppa and Caesarea ( Acts 8-10).

John: Accompanies Peter ( Acts 3, 8).

James (the brother of John): Martyred early ( Acts 12:2).

Paul (not one of the 12) becomes the main focus from Acts 13 onward.

There is no biblical record showing that the other apostles (e.g., Bartholomew, Simon the Zealot, Thaddeus) traveled widely or took missionary journeys outside of Judea.

Church Tradition & Historical Accounts

Some later Christian writings and traditions claim broader travels:

Thomas: Said to have gone to India (supported by strong local tradition among the St. Thomas Christians).

Andrew: Believed to have preached in Scythia, around the Black Sea (modern Ukraine and Georgia).

Bartholomew: Said to have gone to Armenia or India.

James (son of Zebedee): Martyred early, but later traditions say his remains went to Spain (Santiago de Compostela).

Matthew: Possibly went to Ethiopia or Persia.

However, these traditions are not in the Bible and vary in historical credibility. Many were recorded centuries later and are difficult to verify.

Paul's Unique Role

Only Paul is consistently shown in Scripture as traveling extensively-through Asia Minor, Greece, and Rome, with plans to go to Spain ( Romans 15:24). He calls himself "the apostle of the Gentiles" ( Romans 11:13), and his journeys are recorded in great detail in Acts 13-28.

In Scripture, Jesus Christ initially sent His twelve disciples only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In Matthew 10:5-6, Jesus commanded them, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This directive limited their early ministry strictly to the circumcision, the Jewish people. Even after Christ's resurrection, Peter and the other apostles continued ministering primarily to the Jews in Jerusalem and surrounding regions ( Acts 1-7). Their ministry was rooted in the hope of Israel and the promised earthly kingdom.

Although the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15 includes the phrase "go ye into all the world," there is no biblical record of Peter, James, John, or the other original apostles ever launching widespread missions to the Gentile nations. Their continued presence in Jerusalem and their focus on the Jewish believers is affirmed in Galatians 2:7-9, where Paul writes that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed to him, while the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Peter. The Jerusalem apostles gave Paul and Barnabas the "right hands of fellowship," agreeing that Paul should go to the Gentiles while they remained with the circumcision.

Only Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles ( Romans 11:13), is recorded in Scripture as taking multiple missionary journeys to distant lands-Asia Minor, Macedonia, Greece, and Rome. These travels are thoroughly documented in the Book of Acts (chapters 13-28). Paul uniquely preached the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24), revealing the mystery of the Body of Christ and salvation by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 3:1-9), distinct from the kingdom gospel preached to Israel.

Thus, Scripture consistently shows that the twelve apostles remained focused on Israel and never carried out global missionary work, while Paul alone fulfilled the calling to take the gospel to the nations.

Peter did not preach Paul's mystery because God hadn't revealed it yet-it was hidden and later given to Paul. Peter's message was tied to Israel's prophetic program, while Paul's mystery message concerns the unprophesied Church-the Body of Christ and a new dispensation of grace.

Peter Acknowledged Paul's Revelation, But It Was Not His Commission

Peter did recognize that Paul had a unique message from God, but he did not take up preaching it himself. Instead, he stayed in his God-given role.

Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says:

"Even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you... in which are some things hard to be understood..."

Peter admits Paul had special wisdom from God (a mystery), but also that it was hard to understand-meaning it was foreign to his own teaching.

Galatians 2:7-9 - At their meeting, they agreed:

Paul would go to the Gentiles with the gospel of the uncircumcision.

Peter would continue with the Jews (circumcision) under the kingdom program.

So even after meeting Paul, Peter didn't change commissions. God gave each apostle a distinct assignment.

God Was Shifting Programs, Not Merging Them

The mystery given to Paul marked a new dispensation-a change in God's dealings from Israel and prophecy to the Body of Christ and grace.

Peter was part of the prophetic program concerning Israel.

Paul was part of the mystery program concerning the Body of Christ.

Peter stepped back, recognizing that God was now working through Paul. He did not oppose it-but he didn't adopt Paul's ministry either, because God didn't call him to it.

3. Peter Disappears from the Biblical Record After Acts 15

After the Acts 15 Jerusalem Council and Galatians 2 meeting with Paul, Peter fades from the narrative. Why?

Because God was now focusing on Paul's ministry, and the kingdom offer to Israel was fading.

Peter's mission to the Jews under the kingdom program was being set aside temporarily ( Romans 11:11-15).

Dear Friend in Christ,

Many today believe that the Church is a continuation or replacement of Israel, often calling it "spiritual Israel." However, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the Church-the Body of Christ-formed through the unique revelation given to the Apostle Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-6), is a distinct entity from the nation of Israel. Israel is a nation with earthly promises, covenants, and prophetic hope, while the Church is a heavenly people, formed without distinction between Jew and Gentile, united by faith alone in Christ and placed into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28).

Israel's promises were national and earthly-God covenanted land, a kingdom, and a Messiah to rule over them ( Genesis 17:7-8; Isaiah 9:6-7). These promises were never transferred to the Church. Instead, Paul reveals a "mystery" that was kept hidden from ages past ( Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26), in which God is forming a new, heavenly organism-the Body of Christ-composed of both Jew and Gentile, not based on nationality or covenant, but based on grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9). Nowhere in Paul's epistles does he teach that the Church has become Israel or inherits Israel's kingdom promises.

To equate the Church with spiritual Israel confuses God's prophetic program for Israel with His mystery program for the Body of Christ. God has not abandoned His promises to national Israel ( Romans 11:1-2, 25-29). Their fullness will come in a future day, during the millennial reign of Christ. In contrast, the Church was chosen before the foundation of the world and has a heavenly destiny ( Ephesians 1:3-4; Philippians 3:20). Understanding the difference protects sound doctrine and preserves the clarity of God's distinct purposes for Israel and the Church.

Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"

Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Acts 9:15"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Blessings

Blessings

Hello Chris,

Thanks again for your feedback, however I must address the thought that Peter and Paul preached the same message.

That would be like trying to mix oil and water.

PETER'S MESSAGE: FAITH + WORKS UNDER THE LAW

Primarily to Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6; Galatians 2:7-9)

Before and during early Acts (esp. Acts 2-3)

Grounded in prophecy and covenant promises

Supporting Scriptures:

Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and be baptizedfor the remission of sins"

Acts 3:19 - "Repentthat your sins may be blotted outwhen the times of refreshing shall come"

Matthew 19:17 - "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

James 2:24 - "By works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (Written to the twelve tribes, James 1:1)

PAUL'S MESSAGE: SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE, WITHOUT WORKS

Sent to the Gentiles and all men ( Romans 11:13; Acts 26:17-18)

Begins mid-Acts ( Acts 9 conversion; commission in Acts 13)

Based on the revelation of the mystery ( Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:1-9)

Supporting Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "By grace are ye saved through faithnot of works"

Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

Romans 3:28 - "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Galatians 2:16 - "A man is not justified by the works of the law"

Final Note (Rightly Dividing View):

Peter preached what God had revealed since the world began ( Acts 3:21), rooted in prophecy.

Paul preached what was kept secret since the world began ( Romans 16:25), revealed through the mystery.

Transition period in Acts explains overlapping elements, but Paul's gospel of grace fully replaces works-based requirements for salvation in the present dispensation.

thanks again, God Bless!

There is much controversy over the time references of Bible events. That too is natural, for the wisdom of this world have not yet fully defined time: Now they say that one second is not always one second; it can be long as thousands of years; time can stand still, and time can even move backwards! That is what Albert Einstein in his Theory of Relativity argues. Some agreed and some mocked; but modern experiments prove Einstein was right. Everything in the universe we see is relative, except the speed of light. This explains many mysteries. When God said, Let there be light, He was not merely illuminating earth, but He was creating a universe where time passes at a certain pace. Here, in this material world, one second is always one second. We are bound to this frame of reference. God the Creator is outside this frame. He can be anywhere and everywhere in space (3 dimensions) and time (4th dimension) simultaneously. Angels too are in this spiritual world. Jesus, by His own will, left the divine body and took time-space bound material body and lived here with us to give us eternal life.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Dear all, some word i forget to give.

Romans 10:9-13

Romans 11:1

1 Tim 2:4

God bless us all in Jesus Christ name.

God's goodness and severity ( Romans 11:22-23)

They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. ( Jeremiah 6:14).

When we observe scripture we see the judgment of individuals as well as whole nations. Look at Joel 2:32 for instance

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

Now look at this verse in Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Here we have examples of when God hears the call and when He doesn't. This of course can be compared with the repentance of Judas Iscariot who was sorry for the consequences of his actions; rather than recognizing Jesus as Messiah and bowing down in worship. Let this be a warning to us all.

We also see differing spiritual states in different passages; take for instance John 3:16-18

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

It isn't enough to call out on the Lord but to do what He says. Luke 6:46 states: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? We can call on His Name ( Romans 10:13) as an individual; or a nation facing judgment ( Joel 2:32) and this shows different contexts to this N.T. passage from the O.T. reference.

Many are called; few are chosen ( Matt. 22:14). God does the choosing; ultimately as He knows all men's hearts.

Galatians 3:14

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Ephesians 3:6

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Romans 11:36

"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Blessings

Gigi.

Part 4.

Darby's thinking was influenced, in part, by the early Church Fathers' rudimentary understandings of God's dealings with people in distinct periods

Justin Martyr: Recognized a period of law under Moses and a period of grace under Christ.

Irenaeus: Believed in a millennial reign of Christ on earth after the Antichrist's reign.

Tertullian: Discussed the different ages of the world, including a future millennium.

However, you cannot settle a debate or gather truth by solely relying on the internet!

There's scripture that should backup your findings and you should understand them.

For example,

Where do you fit the millennium in your doctrine on this topic? This will determine if you take the text seriously or do you spiritualize the text to fit a belief system.

You must have an understanding on the Old Testament and eschatology when considering it.

You have to study scripture and not the history of Christianity.

That's all I will speak on Dispensationalism at this time.

You said you believe that believers can lapse in faith when facing doubt and trials, but being elect, will be wooed back to faith by God and restored to the life of the tree, as the Prodigal Son parable shows us.

Gigi, that has nothing to do with being blinded from the truth!

Once you receive Christ the Spirit of truth is always with you.

Being blinded as Paul mentions, the truth is kept from them!

They can't perceive.

You said you do not believe that every ethnic Jew will be saved, just the remnant, as Paul says.

Gigi Paul didn't say that!

Here's what he said.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:25-26

They will be able see!

God bless.

Gigi.

Part 2.

Romans 11:25

Gigi, I believe Israel was "to be" blinded before the ministry of Christ For a lack of a better way to put it.

Here's why.

If Israel would have received Christ, then we would be still under the Levitical priesthood.

There would be no redemption from the curse of the law.

There would be no baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The list goes on. You would have to rewrite every page in the Bible, especially Hebrews!

There would be no rebirth by the death and resurrection of Christ.

The Jews didn't kill Christ! The love of the father to a lost world did!

And that's the WHOLE WORLD!!

John 12:23-24 READS

"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR.

IF THE JEWS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST THIS HOUR WOULD NOT HAVE COME.

This is why I say you should word it the way Paul penned it. It is Paul's Kinsman in the flesh that was blinded. I believe it is easier to understand it worded as such rather than saying he blinded the Jews." Meaning Israel blinded under "THAT" ministry in regards to salvation. in that manner they have been blinded. There's a difference Gigi!

I believe Israel blindness was prophetic but yet preordained. Paul is quoting Isaiah 6:9-10 in Romans.

If you look at any other kind of way, it looks like Israel blindness was a plan B.

See Part 3.

S. Spencer

Here you said

"It is Paul's Kinsman in the flesh that was blinded. I believe it is easier to understand it worded as such rather than saying he blinded the Jews."

So, when I read this I thought you were saying that it was not God who blinded them.

But Romans 11:8 clears that up.

Otherwise, I don't feel a need to add anything more to our conversation here. It is always good to discuss the Word with you.

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for responding.

I've read them all but I haven't freed up some time to reply.

I would like to quickly respond to your last post.

Your quote,' Romans 11:8

does say that is God who gave the Jews their blindness (stupor) so that they will not see, nor will they be able to hear and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, I think this clears up this discrepency..

End quote.

Gigi there's no discrepency there at all!

I always said God blinded "Israel"

I have always said it was part of his plan referencing Romans 11:25-26.

BTW Romans 1 doesn't have any connection to this.

We'll talk later.

God bless you.

Hello once again,

Romans 11:8 does say that is God who gave the Jews their blindness (stupor) so that they will not see, nor will they be able to hear and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, I think this clears up this discrepency between us. God gave people over to their unbelief and rebellion as Romans 1 speaks to. I think it is important to understand that nothing happens that God does not ordain to occur. He may not directly cause some things, such as sin, but in His plan for creation, as the Absolute Sovereign over all. Nothing happens that He did not always know and allow to occur. But at times, He does directly cause things. to occur, and in this case, Scripture does say that God caused the stupor so that the Jews would not see and believe.

Paul, before he was martyred, saw this occur among his brethren and it grieved him very much ( Romans 9:1-5). God did reveal to Paul why this happened as we read in Romans 11. I think it is difficult for any of us to understand or even approve of God hardening some for His purposes as Romans 9 tells us, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden." As believers, we need to humble ourselves to the truth of what Scriptures teach us even when what is taught disagrees with our human sense of justice, right and wrong, and moral sensibilities.

For the record here, I believe that there has always been just one people of God-those who believe on Him and trust in Him, whether, Noah, Abraham, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, the apostles and all Christian believers through time. It is the believing Jews from all time along with the believing Gentiles (such as Rahab, Ruth) from the beginning of creation to the end of time that are God's people. You will read in the epistle of Peter and in Revelation where those who believe in Jesus are a kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation, royal people, just as the O.T. speaks of Israel in the same way.

Hi Gigi.

I'm sorry, I thought it was covered.

You stated "By the time of Paul and Peter's deaths, the church was primarily Gentiles"

Gigi, I've never heard that before. You gave me your perspective but not a breakdown on why you believe that. So decided to pass on it.

You stated, So, when you read Peter, you are aware that he is speaking to Jewish believers. However, unlike dispensationalism.

I was not sure where you were going with that. You have made it clear on feel about dispensationalism, so I passed on it as well.

Now here is a quote you made that puzzles me. "As gentile believers we are to be wise as to the errors of the Jews and to stay strong in the face of doubt and trials so that we, too, are not blinded. End quote.

Gigi how does that co-exist with your beliefs on God's elect the way you describe it?

How do God's elect that is chosen before the foundation of the world "that has nothing to do with the foreknowledge of God according to you" become blind and slip out of God's hands? Have not God opened the eyes to only his elect?

The Nation is blinded.

It is Paul's Kinsman in the flesh that was blinded. I believe it is easier to understand it worded as such rather than saying he blinded the Jews.

It's the Nation of Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; that is blinded so that righteousness and purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

God never intended for salvation to be brought in by the law.

I believe Israel was blinded so that God could carry out his plan laid out in Romans 11:30-32

For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God bless

Matthew 22:1-14 reflects the story of Luke 14 but apparently there are some differences. The summary of the parable in Matthew is this in verse 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There is much analysis as to how this pertained to the Pharisees and the Jews rejecting Christ. I would say this also applies in other ways too; such as those who hear the Gospel message say decades ago whose hearts have dulled and those today who convert. We have to search ourselves to see if we are truly saved; but also not try to add our own righteousness which could signify not wearing the proper attire no doubt referring to the white garments we receive being needed. The need not to have our garments stained is another issue; perhaps not focused on here.

There is no doubt some reference was made here to the final call of the good and bad here; much as those who are summoned in the highways and hedges in Luke 14:23. The issue of the cares of this world or thorns that entangle us to prevent fruit from being produced is a concern here too. We are reminded of John 10:2 about the thief and robber that attempts to enter the sheepfold in a way other than the door (or Christ).

Verses such as this must be studied; with the idea of not terrifying a new believer with thoughts of our Lord throwing them out of heaven; but more importantly exhorting us with the truth of the fact that anyone can have their heart dulled and their minds distracted slowly over time. Exhortations such as this are readily accepted by those mature in the faith; just as rebuke and exhortation are. Something doesn't have to apply to us personally; but as Romans 11:22 states Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. This passage is describing the Jews who rejected the Messiah and Gentiles grafted in. True believers have faith to the end even if weak.

Matthew 17: The Transfiguration.

Jesus met with Moses and Elijah who discussed His coming death (see Luke 9:31). Peter, James and John were the three that came up with Him as I mentioned earlier ( Matthew 17:1). Verse 12 indicates that Elijah had come already as a type of forerunner in the spirit or likeness as it were of John the Baptist (verse 13).

Elijah must come first before Christ returns the second time (verses 10-11; see Malachi 4:5-6). This seems to make certain that he is one of the two prophets mentioned in Revelation 11. I would argue strongly against Moses since scripture indicates he died ( Deut. 34:7) and personally my view is that the verse Hebrews 9:27 that would indicate to me that Enoch is the second prophet.

Restoring all things in the middle of the Tribulation would tie in with Romans 14 in that "all Israel will be saved". ( Romans 11:26). In one sense it is hard to fathom the invincibility and power of the two prophets that end up being killed but makes sense in light of the claim of the Beast in Revelation 13; in that those who tormented the whole earth will be killed; and this will make Antichrist seem to be superior along with his apparent resurrection. I won't get further into that for now.

Matthew 16:27-28 seems to indicate the transfiguration; but full Preterists seem to think that means Christ would return by 70 AD and somehow is here physically but hidden in plain sight. Again I won't go in length on that but will say if He is here physically it makes His claims of returning as lightning from the east to the west ( Matt. 24:27) and Revelation 19 seem to be rather insignificant not to mention the control on the insanity in the world at present would be questionable.

His countenance as the sun reminds us of John's vision in Revelation 1. We can ponder on His humanity in verse 7 when He says do not be afraid. Again this revelation He wanted kept from public domain (verse 9). Nothing was to stop His upcoming death

Matthew 11:7-18. In this section we see Jesus commending John the Baptist despite his apparent wavering faith; as being in prison no doubt weighed heavily on him. He asked them what they came out to see; and was using it later on to introduce a rather caustic commentary on their opinion of Christ. Verses 18-19 state: For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

No doubt these statements indicated the initial reaction of mass repentance based on John's teachings had faded as to the effectiveness; and they were probably having the same reaction after Christ's initial appearance and their wonderment turned to suspicion. Notice the multitudes were adddressed here; so it appears the assessment of the Pharisees had worked on their minds to disparage Christ's character to make them think the same irrational thoughts.

Jesus was only getting started; next He was to upbraid cities only recently preached to for their lack of faith. (verses 21-24). Not only were they telling them they were by and large doomed to hell but that it would be worse for them than pagan nations judged in the past. This is some serious stuff.

The rest of the passage talks about those who are meek (verse 28) and heavy laden; and informs them that their yoke is easy and burden is light (v. 30 at the end of the chapter). This is a sudden shift in emphasis to those true believers. This shows the goodness and severity of God (see Romans 11:22). What matters is the state of a soul as to the experience with God for eternity. We all should find it sobering that a population of a city can have only one opportunity to hear of the salvation of Christ; in the case of the book of Jonah we saw mass repentance; compared to the cities Christ pronounces judgment on.

Hello Giannis,

I agree with all you've said in this post with the exception of the idea that God has ever had a problem in and of Himself. The problem of sin is always the problem of the sinner, not God's problem. He never faces a dilemma nor does He need to come up with any plan other than what He decreed in eternity past in the Everlasting Covenant. God is always in control of all that happens and all that is. He has ordained all things from before creation and therefore, nothing can be a problem for Him. He did not have to create any beings, nor create them so that they would be able to sin, and would indeed do so. He created angels and humans knowing they will sin because it was His plan for them to do so in order for Him to redeem those He chose to save to the praise of His glorious grace. Romans 11:32 and Ephesians 1:6-8.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Isaiah 52:14 "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"

Belief in the Son was emphasized even by John the Baptist as a second witness as Jesus started His public ministry ( John 3:23-36). Nonetheless He often hid who He was; particularly early in His ministry ( Matt. 16:20 may be a later statement to this affect). As stated in my last post He often told people to tell no man about who did a miracle ( Matt. 8:4) so He didn't want any necessary noteriety. Those who didn't have eyes to see and ears to hear ( Matt. 13:16) simply thought He was a Prophet; or good man at best; or an illegitimate child to Mary ( John 8:41).

Given these facts and the blindness of man without the revelation of God ( 2 Cor. 4:4) we shouldn't be surprised by the world's expectations of a superman or bermensch as Neche called this individual. Men who didn't see the Lord as coming to save rather than destroy men were blind to their own state. They should have realized who Christ was regarding the clear prophecies particularly in Isaiah 53. There was a reason for the delay in what indeed will involve Christ coming to destroy His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth; and some Jews seem to have the concept of two different figures to make sense of apparently diametrically opposed characteristics of Christ as suffering servant and conquering King.

The fact is that God planned it so the nation of Israel would be blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles came in ( Romans 11:25). Given the fact that Naaman the Syrian and the widow who Elijah helped to feed and raise her child to life were Gentiles (Jesus enraged the Pharisees mentioning that God exclusively met her need at the expense of many others with similar situations that were Jews at that time ( Luke 4:25) was important.

Part 1

The Twelve Disiples thought that the blind man's parents sins because of his blindness. Sometimes we need to slow down and wait for the Lord's answer, before judging.

John 9:1-5

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Today, Jesus Christ is not walking the earth in the flesh, Jesus Christ is in the Third Heaven sitting next to the Father.

Romans 8:34

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at therighthandofGod, who also maketh intercession for us.

God gave the Holy Spirit to the Twelve Disiples and then it stayed with the Gentiles.

John 14:26

But theComforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Israel is blind to the gospel of grace as a nation, but when the Gentiles fill the body of Christ, God will open there hearts and they will be able to see again.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of theGentilesbe come in.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Part 2

The Rapture of the Body of Christ will open the doors for Israel to have there Third Temple and there Messiah back for the Kingdom on earth.

Romans 11:24

For if thou wert cut out of theolivetree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a goodolivetree: how much more shall these, which be the naturalbranches, be grafted into their ownolivetree?

The Gentiles will fall off the Olive Tree and God will graft Israel back.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come afallingawayfirst, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The biggest sin is unbelief of the gospel of grace in Christ Jesus. Satan is good at blinding the people from seeing the word of truth.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Part 2

Peter is the Apostle of the Jews and Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles.

Romans 11:13

For I speak to youGentiles, inasmuch as I amtheapostleoftheGentiles, I magnify mineoffice:

Apostle Paul went to the uncircumcision for the gospel of grace and Apostle Peter went to the circumcision with the gospel of the kingdom.

Galatians 2:7

But contrariwise, whenthey saw thatthegospeloftheuncircumcisionwas committed unto me, asthegospelofthecircumcision was unto Peter;

May we agree Apostle Paul is not one of the Twelve because he was not qualified and it was God plan ?

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4