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And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. (PHillipians 1:28)."
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. ( Joshua 2:11).
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ( Proverbs 9:10). Continuing with some ideas from my previous post; it seems that when it comes to supposed testimonies of hell; the fear of the Lord and a sense of it being His wrath as a great part of the terror is lost in accounts of suffering. The same thing makes us even more suspect with those testimonies about heaven; even Moses who knew God unlike any other man at the time ( Exodus 33:11) and spoke to Him as a friend still had fear when He appeared in all His glory ( Deut. 9:19). WE ALL SHOULD TAKE THIS ADMONITION SERIOUSLY as to fear and AWE of Him no matter how long we have been believers (sorry but I felt caps were needed here).
The assurance of salvation and the evident blessings being present on someone brings meaning to the first quote from Philippians; and the fact that we will return with Him ( Rev. 19:14) will strike fear in those whose eyes are now opened;
along with the fear of judgment to come.
The concept of our enemies also needs to be addressed along with our own enmity toward God that we now have reconciled.
Romans 11:28 shows how the unbeliving Jews were enemies in one sense; yet Paul wished that he himself could be accursed to save them ( Romans 9:3). We are to love our enemies; but not fraternize to gain reputation as the world does; for what is honorable among men is an abomination to God ( Luke 16:15 also could be "highly esteemed"). We should have no part fellowshipping with those who preach a false Gospel; and in no uncertain terms testify to the peril the unsaved is in apart from repentance.
Then the mysterious transaction of Spirit-given Faith: to believe, to receive, & then to rejoice that the Work of Salvation has been completed in us. Nothing at all of us - but all of God to bring sinners devoid of the knowledge & blessings of God, into the family of the olive tree's 'natural branches'; standing only by faith ( Romans 11:20).
And Galatians 2:16: this is Paul speaking of those 'justified by faith & not the works of the law'. This "faith of Jesus Christ" can only apply to those after Christ's death & not before, even as Peter was reprimanded for his hypocrisy in applying the ceremonial Law - applying the works of the Law to the faith of Christ. And you've stated that this is the 'Christ's Faith' ("His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those he saves"). I think the Greek here is that it is the 'Faith from Christ', but I can't be sure; one of our Greek-speaking brothers will need to verify this as this is an important point in what you shared. In any case, only those after Jesus completed His Work on the Cross, can this Faith be seen and applied.
Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
They are god's chosen people whom through their fall we have obtained salvation.
Romans 11:11
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
It was god's good pleasure to do this so that we may all be saved and become one.
Galatians 3:36-29
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
It was his promise from the beginning.
Genesis 26:4
"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;"
Right now things are going to well for any of the nations including Israel.
Revelations 18:1-3
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Keep preaching and praying because the 7 last plagues are coming soon.
We also; of course see individuals such as Nebuchadnezzar who was converted in charge of Babylon; a pagan nation as well as individuals assimilated in such as the mixed multitude in Exodus; Ruth and Rahab; and likely Naaman the Syrian not to mention for a time the population of Nineveh; at least in momentary repentance.
There was a time earlier when Jesus instructed the Disciples to only preach to the lost sheep of Israel ( Matt. 10:5-6). However; in the case of the woman praying for her daughter; the only other individual Jesus stated had great faith and also a Gentile went though a discourse in Matthew 15:26-27 and then her prayers were answered. This appears on the surface to be cruel; but Jesus was drawing her out; and this allowed His glory to be put on display and signifies to us for all time perseverance.
Acts 18:6 shows a similar pattern with Paul after he had more than worn out his welcome in preaching Christ in their midst. Now; Israel will have to wait until the Lord's return for all of the cities of Israel to be reached ( Matt. 10:23). Thus; until the "fullness of the Gentiles come in" ( Romans 11:25) Israel is blind in part.
These things are according to God's pattern; and eventually will fulfill verses such as Isaiah 56:7 when in God's Holy mount; there will be a place for prayer for all nations. Mark 11:17 shows how the Jews themselves failed in understanding their own destiny by making a marketplace in the Temple as a mockery.
I haven't been able to get away to participate by reading the bulk of the posts and replies on the 10 commandment topic.
I would like to mention a misunderstanding in the communication between the several views on this topic.
There's a difference in the 10 commandments being Holy and being justified by keeping them.
We say Israel failed to be a witness but is that totally accurate?
How did they fail? By not keeping the law?
Before anyone answer that I would like for us to consider a few things.
1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!
2) The law was given to Israel. Romans 9:4. So they had a ministry to minister to the Whole world as "fleshly" Children of an active, living, Holy God.
This ministry was called ministration of death..
2 Corinthians 3:6-9.
They were examples for us and this is written to us.
They successfully showed the world what Paul stated in Romans 7:5-14.
The world is unable to be Justified by the Law.
3) To say Israel failed for not keeping the law is not exactly correct.
They failed by thinking they were justified by the law.( Not just the 10 commandments ) after all there were articles for certain sins.
They failed because they stumbled at that stumblingstone!
That's where they failed!!
Romans 9:31-33.
They all didn't fail, there was a remnant according to the election of grace and still is.
Romans 11:4-8.
vs 5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE!)
This election is not determined by works.
In other words works wasn't elected as God's way to justify his people.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Yes the law is Holy and we all fail to be Justified by it, so we were all dead in trespasses and sins.
This is where the cross comes in.
Ephesians 2:1-5.
God bless.
Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.
Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).
Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.
And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.
As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU
When we take Ephesians 2:14-18, as confirmation that God is through with National Israel we need to examine that further.
Ephesians 2:14-18 Establishes the Church.
Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
We see in this verse that the Gentiles were added to make up the body "Not Israel"
When the early Church started they were nearly All Jews.
The middle wall of partition was broken down for the Gentiles,
They were the strangers. Keep in mind these are the Messianic Jews. ( BOTH THE JEWS AND GENTILES SAVED BY ONE WAY, CHRIST. )
So what you see here "in regards to Salvation, there is NO Dispensation. "As always and forever" Christ is savior and the only way for all.
There is a dispensation in the believers view point in regards to time.
Israel in the OT looked forward to one who was coming.
Today Beleiving Jews and Gentiles looks back at one who has came.
So we have two groups here that forms the Church.
So we start with three Groups here. The Nation Israel divided up in two groups. "The believers and those who remained blinded. "
Also the believing Jews and the Gentiles.
In Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11 we see Paul deals with these same three groups.
You see two saved and forming the church.
You see one that has been broken off because of non-belief.
You see the same order of sequence as you do in Ephesians. The Gentiles added or "Grafted into the common wealth of Israel.
Romans 11:1-36 focus is on the broken off Group with the conclusion in vs 26. ( And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:)
PLEASE READ ROMANS 11.
This is not talking about the Church, They're already mentioned throughout these 3 chapters as already saved.
Gad bless.
Stephen in his apology to the Jews among others he said, Acts 7:38, "(7) This is he(Moses), that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
Stephen calls the Hebrews in the dessert as church. Why? Because he wanted to show to Jews that the church is not something foreign, but it is actually them. And it was them, the remnant that Paul speaks about in Romans 11:5.
Romans 11:25-27, "(25)For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27)For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"
Blindness in part. The remnant with the nations who now entered the Covenant became the church, God's people, as always. And at the end the rest of Hebrews will enter God's saved people, the church which is the assembly of all saved people since the begining of the world.
And lets not forget that that initial church where unimaginary miracles took place and God showed His power so often was the Hebrew christian church.
So Hebrews and nations separate? No, but together in one.
So, Dispensansional theology? For me No, Covental theology.
Jesus now reigns sitting on top of the throne of David in Heaven over the new Israel, the CHURCH. And His reign will last for ever, as it is written in the Scriptures.
GBU
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
The Jews, God's chosen people killed Jesus for several reasons. They were blinded so that Jesus could be crucified and we could be saved.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy
It was god's will for them to be blinded so we the gentiles could obtain salvation. It was god's plan before he created the world.
Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As far as god's name. He has many different names in many different tongues. Jesus Christ is good enough for me. Once you receive Jesus Christ as your personal savior you will receive his spirit... the holy spirit into your heart or soul.
Lucifer is the god of this world. He has been given authority down here and his job is to kill, steal, and destroy. He is a liar and the father of lies and a murderer. God gives people a choice... Choose him which is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to father Abba or you can choose the devil receive an unclean spirit and eternal damnation in the lake of fire. I choose New Jerusalem and eternity to bask in the glory of the only one true and beautiful and glorious god. In heaven you will feel the love of god's spirit radiating through you for eternity. You won't hunger, thirst, have any knowledge of sin. You will be glorified with Christ and become one with god in paradise. Everything will be made new including you. I would not study anything to do with freemasonry or secret societies or anything that the enemy's side does. It is a shame to even mention the things they do in secret.
Sorry but I'm not wanting to turn what Gigi started a couple of years ago as a summary through the OT.
I'm emphasizing how God deals with them as a Nation as he do us today. ( With mercy for his name sake.) He will complete what he started! He's not a man where he lies or repent. This will be illustrated in Ch 23 vs 19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The fact that God decided to continue his promises with the next generation "kids 20 years and below" and continue to carry them on eagles wings in the wilderness emphasis he's committed to carrying on with his promises and dealing with them as a Nation as part of his redemption plan.
That's the same kind of display of commitment and faithfulness he has for his Church.
We're a stiff neck people as well who has the spirit INSIDE US! so we should be encouraged by God not abandoning Israel.
We should consider
Hebrews 10:29-31. and
Romans 11:18-20.
I've read and studied Hebrews 11 and interpret those verses perhaps slightly different than you and don't care to get into that on this thread.
However I will leave you with this, How they are to pray.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH.
This haven't happened yet.
I'll be leaving this thread for now.
God bless.
Look how God's longsuffering and everlasting mercy plays a role in the Nation!
Here's a few points that's often overlooked in this portion of scripture.
Israel was already given the law at this time, however the keeping of the law played no role in them entering the promise land.
Lack of faith did.
There were no requirements on their part but to trust in the unconditional promises God gave to Abraham.
It's God's reputation and ability to provide those promises was and still is on display.
As we look ahead into Ch 14 we see Moses making intercession for Israel by God's promises, "Not Israel's faithfulness"
Notice Numbers 14:11-16.
Today the Church has joined this group in their mockery of God's promises!
God could have ended it right there but he made Promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "who's later named Israel" that he will make a nation out of them and they would inherit a Land that he laid out.
That's important because they have NEVER possessed all the Land. But they will!
Look at the means by which Moses petition God on the behalf of Israel in Numbers 14:17-
And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my LORD be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of THIS PEOPLE according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven THIS PEOPLE, from Egypt even until now.
The Nation of Israel is given mercy and inheritance as God's first born.
Exodus 4:22.
Isaiah 14:1-2.
Hosea 2:23.
According to Paul he's not done with them and the promises will be fulfilled to them as a Nation and first born.
Romans 10:19-21 through
Romans 11:1-4.
Conclusion.
Romans 11:30-32.
God bless.
REVIEWING THE NEW TESTAMENT CONSIDERING PREMILLENNIAL AND AMILLENNIAL VIEW POINTS.
In the previous section I left off discussing the council in Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 15:13-17 and Paul's writings in Romans 11:25.
These verses is concerning what become of Israel and the Covenant promises while the Church age has begun.
This tempts me to revisit the OT and usher in Daniel 9:24-27 at this junction but I will save that for now.
The focus is on Gods future plans for Israel and the timing and location of the Kingdom reign of Christ.
Some call it the Millennium reign or Millennium kingdom which can unfortunately confusing.
Millennium is a Thousand years.
That's just how long Satan will be chained.
Christ reign is everlasting. We must no mistake the Millennium for eternity. There's still sin, chastening and death in the Millennium. Christ rule with a rod of iron. Eternity is entirely different.
The Millennium is a time of testing.
There's a final rebellion by Man after the Devil is loosed for a season.
The statement in Acts 15:13-17 is drawn from Amos 9:11-12 which has been debated.
Amillenarians sought to make this a contradiction of the premillennial point of view.
It seems that "after these things I will return" refers to the return of Christ after the period of Gentile prominence which began in 606 B.C. and is destined to continue until the second coming. It is "after these things" judgment on Israel, their scattering, and discipline that Christ will return and build again the tabernacle or tent of David. The reference to the tent of David does not concern itself with any building but rather with the political power and sway which David had.
Amos 9:14-15 debunks that,
Especially verse 15. "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."
It's bedtime for me.
I will continue at a later time.
God bless.
From henceforth?
This has to be from the time the kingdom starts. by the description given of the kingdom we must admit it hasn't happened yet.
This places it future.
The kingdom consists of the Nation of Israel repenting and acknowledging Christ "who they rejected"
He will sit on David's throne IN JERUSALEM according to the promises and Covenants.
IN THE MEANTIME WHAT HAS BECOME OF THE NATION ISRAEL?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Romans 11:8
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Romans11:11.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans11:25.
How do we consider these verses CONCERNING NATION ISRAEL in Romans 11 and consider the promises and Covenants and the view into the future that Daniel gives us in Daniel 9:24-27?
More to come.
God bless.
Today in Sunday school; the discussion came up about finishing the race well and the verse 1 Corinthians 11:1 or another to that affect was pondered. One participant stated that she would like that to be true for her and her children and grandchildren on imitating the example set forth. Further delving into the matter of those with integrity in scripture (there are many) brought up the examples of Isaiah and Jeremiah the "weeping" prophet. I thought of Jeremiah in Lamentations and the parallel to Christ in the New Testament weeping over Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37. We need to balance the hard truths such as the excoriation of the Pharisees and the prophets warnings to Israel and the collateral damage inevitably to result with the fact that when calamity did strike the Prophets would mourn and suffer; understanding God's own sentiments toward such things. That is brought out quite effectively with Hosea and the judgments to come on Ephriam such as in chapter 11 verse 8. In fact; in the prophet's personal life with his unfaithful wife he had to purchase again as well as with eventual reconciliation with Israel mentioned in earlier chapters we see past what many consider an unloving Old Testament God with one who doesn't have any joy in the destruction of the wicked ( Ezekiel 18:23).
In this discussion of the "goodness and severity of God" ( Romans 11:22) we can apply these principles to the discipling efforts that elders are commissioned to be part of along with the rest of the congregation. Open rebuke is better than hidden love ( Proverbs 27:5). There is too much laxity in such matters today from my vantage point. Let's be honest; we are more likely to take a rebuke to heart than some meaningless compliment and retain such in our memory. That can be true for something said in an insensitive manner; but most times we can at least apply some truth from the Word in our lives and respect the messenger.
Part 4.
The Abrahamic Covenant also included a promise of blessing and redemption ( Genesis 12:3). All the earth would be blessed through Abraham. This promise finds its fulfillment in the New Covenant ( Jeremiah 31:31-34; cf. Luke 22:20), which was ratified by Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham and Redeemer who will one day "restore everything" ( Acts 3:21).
Five times in Genesis 12, as God is giving the Abrahamic Covenant, He says, "I will." Clearly, God takes the onus of keeping the covenant upon Himself. The covenant is unconditional. One day, Israel will repent, be forgiven, and be restored to God's favor ( Zechariah 12:10-14; Romans 11:25-27). One day, the nation of Israel will possess the entire territory promised to them. One day, the Messiah will return to set up His throne, and through His righteous rule the whole world will be blessed with an abundance of peace, pleasure, and prosperity.
There will have an article highlighting the Abrahamic Covenant.
THAT BRINGS US TO THE DAVIDIC COVENANT.
The Davidic Covenant refers to God's promises to David through Nathan the prophet and is found in 2 Samuel 7 and later summarized in 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 and 2 Chronicles 6:16. This is an unconditional covenant made between God and David through which God promises David and Israel that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) would come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah and would establish a kingdom that would endure forever. The Davidic Covenant is unconditional because God does not place any conditions of obedience upon its fulfillment. The surety of the promises made rests solely on God's faithfulness and does not depend at all on David or Israel's obedience.
NEXT.
See the Davidic Covenant.
In this and (let's be honest further sequels) I am setting forth through numerous scripture references the pattern in Revelation. In short we have the first and second halves. In my last posting; I discussed what appears to be the event after the 5th Trumpet and the five months demons torment men. That allows Apollyon to be released; and Revelation 11:14 mentiones the second woe or the sixth trumpet as occuring immediately before the events in Revelation 12 and 13.
The timing is tricky; but it is interesting to see how if we put a period of months to each series of 7 plagues we end up with 84 months which just happens to be exactly 7 years of 12 months each.
Going back to my original thought; there is a period where the 144,000 preach and there is a great harvest following them (likely about the time when the 2 witnesses are resurrected they also are raptured: see Revelation 7:9. We see parallels between the time of ministry of 3.5 years and that of Christ's ministry as well as parallels to Elijah when it didn't rain for 3 years. It appears obvious that Elijah is one of the two witnesses.
What is also interesting is at this darkest moment (at the end of Revelation 11) we see discussion of Christ starting to reign.
The focus would be on all those in heaven; or the completion of the "firstfruits" and all the saints beginning to rule and reign with Christ. After that statement we see Antichrist given his reign of 3.5 years to mock in a large part what the prophets did when on earth (see Rev. 13:13 and compare with Revelation 11:5).
Romans 11:25 makes it evident the blindness to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That could refer to the Rapture (see Psalm 40) or as some say when the rule of the Gentiles comes to a close. In any event; many do wake up; and the third that make it going through the fire are those who of national Israel end up worshipping the true Messiah ( Zech 13:9).
You stated; In Romans 9 "the subject really is not Israel nor the Church but God's righteousness and mercy and how one receives these.
Here is how Romans 9 starts;
1) "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Here's how it ends;
9:31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Here's how Ch 10 starts;
10:1) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Here's how ch 10 ends;
21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Here's how Ch 11 starts.
1)I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Here's the conclusion:
Romans11:25-27.
Back to my point.
Romans 9:6
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" doesn't refer to the Church.
It speaks of the promise of God, not the work of man.
Inheritance was not through natural birth!
It's through the promise given to Abraham back in Genesis.
The text involves Natural Israel and the Israel of God. (The remnant) Romans 11:5.
God bless.
I may be different, but in my understanding of the Bible, I approach scripture simply and do not try to complicate things with preconceived ideas and let the Bible and the Holy Spirit do the interpretation. To me, a symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning.
A symbol represents something real, a real person, a real thing, or a historical event. When I read, I understand words in a literal sense first, then in a figurative or spiritual sense if the literal doesn't make sense.
Are the Christians now the Israel of God? Have the promises to Israel and the church merged into one common heritage? If so that brings up.
Will the promise of the land given to Abraham's seed, Isaac then Jacob be fulfilled? Isaiah 11:11-12 Ezekiel 37:21-25 Jeremiah 24:5-6 Ezekiel 34:11-12 Ezekiel 36:24-26 Hosea 3:4-5 Micah 4:6-7 Zechariah 13:8-9
Will Jesus the Messiah return and reign on the earth, with a rod of iron? Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 11:1-4 Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:14 Zechariah 14:1-4 Jeremiah 3:17 Revelation 2:26-27 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 12:5 Revelation 19:11-21.
Will there be a literal millennium during which Satan will not deceive the nations and Christ will reign on earth? Revelation 20:1-6 2 Timothy 2:11-12 Isaiah 2:2-4 Isaiah 11:5-16 Isaiah 65:19-25 Isaiah 51:4-5 Zechariah 14:16-21 Micah 4:1-4 Psalms 46:7-11 Matthew 19:28.
To me there are too many scriptures that are showing God has not replaced Israel with the Church. We see in Romans 11:24-27 a day when God will again turn to Israel, the day Jesus returns. Forgive me if some of the scriptures do not fit.
God bless,
RLW
But all that is OT prophecy. Has Israel been blotted out because of their stubbornness, & only the Church is what is on God's Mind as His new Israel? I believe that God cherishes His Church (those of Israel & the Gentiles purchased with His Son's Blood), yet yearns for His chosen ones to whom His covenants were given.
The Apostle Paul shares much on this: we read of his yearning for his people & the promise that they will come to the Lord, when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come inAnd so all Israel shall be saved" ( Romans 11:25-27). He isn't referring here to a reconstructed/renamed Israel comprising believing Jews & Gentiles; Paul sees not only the Church (saved Jew & Gentile) in his many writings but also that Israel as a nation/people will continue to exist & play a major part in the end-times. To remove Israel completely out of the end-time picture, would also remove much from the Word that speaks of them as a nation (see also Hebrews 8:8-12 & Jeremiah 31:31-34 for the New Covenant which applies to all now, & will still find it's complete fulfilment in Israel's restoration in the end times). Even Jesus proclaimed that, "Ye (Israel) shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" ( Matthew 23:39) - I wonder when that time will be? ( Zechariah 12:9,10).
My understanding is, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, Genesis 37:9. The woman brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations, this is Jesus, Rev. 2:27 Rev. 19:15. Jesus will return to Israel, Zech. 14:4 Isaiah 11:11-12 Jeremiah 23:3-8 Ezekiel 37:21-25 Rev. 14:1.
Please do not take offense, Robert Breaker is interesting but like I said before some of the things do not line up. Like the Rabbi says 10 jubilees until the Messiah comes and that is calculated to the year 2017. How can that be a sign of what Trump did by moving our embassy to Jerusalem?
My understanding of what John saw in Revelation 12, was the woman, a dragon, and a war in heaven. The woman is Israel who brought forth Jesus, Jesus ascended back to heaven and is on the right side of the Father on the throne, this was almost 2000 years ago. The dragon is Satan, and the war that Satan and his angels are cast down out of heaven to earth and no more place in heaven for them, this is in our future, this will happen when the fulness of the Gentiles become in Romans 11:25.
So, if part of Revelation 12 is in our past, the way Breaker used the images in Rev. 12 to me does not fit. I hope this makes sense and is not offensive. You may have received good information from his video that helps your study.
God bless,
RLW
I would propose that this also has relevance with today's compromised Gospel which downgrades the fear of the Lord; and our necessary attitude toward repentance. I believe it can be true that someone can be so afraid of say; losing their salvation or thinking God can't possibly forgive them that they have an unhealthy disassociation with their Lord and Savior. The other extreme is probably more prevalent today; however. In those who are given the admonition in Romans 11:22 I would argue that if we are in Christ we will persevere; and that is evidenced by continuing to fear the Lord and that is aided by the continuing presence of the Spirit bringing us to maturity.
My focus in this post is on those who would want to make the Gospel less offensive. What seems like intuitive knowledge on a human level is paradoxical on the spiritual-God's love is only magnified when the rest of His Word describing His wrath is presented. To "flee from the wrath to come" ( Luke 3:7) certainly is relevant today; for judgment ultimately but the Tribulation as well. The seriousness of sin seems to be disregarded with today's messages; I would propose that we should make people uncomfortable when they are in the House of God rather than comfortable if that means dumbing down the truth. If we show a half hearted faith it is no wonder there is so much lukewarmness in the church today. Matthew 12:34 states out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speakest. May our hearts be sold out to Christ; not with one foot still in the world.
I think the verse you quoted in the final post is from Romans 11:22, not Hebrews.
You know, it seems that Christians are all so happy to agree that one is saved who calls on the name of the Lord and confess with one's mouth and believe in one's heart. ( Romans 10:9-13) and this is indeed true. This is what my sons did in their younger years. But then when someone turns away from Jesus, Christians say, "well, He must not have been truly saved." So, I say, did God not truly save them when they believed, confessed, and called upon Him? Does He save some times and not others? Romans says that anyone who does what this verse in Romans IS truly saved. When any Christian says of someone who turns from the faith in Jesus as not being truly saved, they make God a liar and not true to His inspired word.
And for the one who has turned away, how devasting for them to hear that they were not "truly saved" before they fell away. If it were me, I would then be convinced that God was a deceiver and unsafe to put one's trust in. I would not want to return to believe upon Jesus if the first time I was "not truly saved". How would I know that this next time I would be "truly saved" and be confident in being justified before God? This is a truly wicked way to handle the situation of a believer departing from faith. I could never say this to my sons: 1) because I do not believe that they were not truly saved and 2) the response of the one in peril is one of despair without hope of God doing what He promised.
The integrity of God's character is more important than to fall into this excuse of seeing those who left the faith as "not being truly saved" so that one can continue to uphold the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved".
I believe that the salvation of anyone is a work of God towards sinners, for sinners cannot make themselves spiritually alive from being dead in sin. Regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit and He does this when the gospel is heard.....cont
Hebrews 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF"
There are so many verses that are clear that salvation can be lost so that litterally one can write a whole book about it.
As Richard wrote how can one be happy if their salvation is always at risk? Yes I must be happy because God saved me, because He will do everything He can (according to His Justice which means He will never violate my freedom) to bring me back when I stray, like the Shepherd who went to find the lost sheep or the penny in the house, BUT I always have to guard my heart with fear because even if it was regenerated by God when I was born again, it still remains deceitful. And I don't know how I will stand when a temptation wiil stand in front of me. David just gave a glimpse to the naked Bathseba and that was enough to bring him down. Good for him he repented. Saul never repented.
You know in Greece in school we are taught about the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans. History says (but it is possibly just a myth) that the turks found a little gate open in the walls and went in. Constaninople which was heavily fortified so it never fell for a thousand years, fall this time due a little door that was forgoten open during the seige. This can serve as an example of how satan works. He only needs a small opening in our heart to get in. And when he gets in the looting starts.
And by the way, why is satan fighting christians if they can never loose their salvation? But the Bible ( 1 Peter 5:8) says that he goes around to find someone to devour. Paul here talks to christians not to non believers.
Now about Israel, Paul says in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will be saved. Every single one of them? I can not answer to that. It is also written, John 19:37, "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"
GBU
Pt. 4
These Jews became one in Christ along with the Gentiles and together are the True Israel of God, the people of God, a holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people, chosen of God. This is a spiritual people, which is the highest and most perfect way for one to be joined to God as His people.
In my view, there are no more promises or prophecies to be fulfilled for ethnic Israel, because Jesus fulfilled all of them, being Yes in them. So, I do not believe it is God's will for the Jews to have an earthly kingdom in the end times, or to rebuild a temple, and begin to offer sacrifices once again. If the Jews do this, it is of their making, not God's.
God had promised to bring the remnant of Israel back to God from all parts of the world, but this is a remnant that is in Christ, not the ethnic nation of Israel. What we see as the nation of Israel was brought about by Zionists in places of power, But God allowed it desiring them to turn back to Him. But as Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...... how often would I have gathered your children together.....and Ye would NOT! Behold your house is left to you desolate (70 A.D.) Matt. 23:37-38. And today, they still WILL NOT.
But all Jews who are in Christ will be saved, the remnant that God elected, chosen before the creation of the world. In Romans 9 Paull quotes Hosea 2:25-27 saying that the people that were not Gods people, are now HIs people, sons of the living God. And Paul quotes Isaiah 10_20-23 and Hosea 1:10 concerning Israel, that though the number of the children of Israel be as sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
Romans 11:2 says that God has not cast away his people which He foreknew...And in verse 5 Paul says that that there is a remnant according to election by grace reserved for salvation. Paul says that ethnic Israel has been blinded, and have a spirit of slumber, their eyes do not see and ears do not hear.
Paul then goes on to explain the two olive trees, .....cont.
I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.
The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.
Well said, I agree there will be Christians alive but we see many will be killed for not taking the mark. When Jesus returns and sets this kingdom up, scriptures like those you listed, the land that was promised to Abraham will be amazing. We also see there will be a remnant of Israel that their eyes will be opened, Romans 11:25-26.
We see people living full long lives and animals in peace as they were first created. I am not sure but I believe Abraham and others from the Old Testament will be in the first Resurrection. As you said one day we will understand everything.
Hebrews 11:8-11 Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. We are shown this city that Abraham will see in Rev. 21:9-27 that God and Jesus the Lamb will be the temple. It will be after the new earth when we see it coming down.
I am with you, if we out of love are respectful to each other and humble and I agree the more we are in God's word it feeds our faith.
God bless,
RLW
Romans 11:25, 26 is NOT teaching Dispensationalism. Romans 11 is teaching that God is saving a remnant out of National Israel just as He is saving a remnant out of the Gentiles, i.e. the other nations of the world. And that His salvation plan for both, i.e. the entire world, will be completed when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in".
Romans 11:26
Romans 11:26 And "so" all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Notice the word "so" in verse 26. The word "so" means "in this manner". It does NOT mean "then".
"All Israel" is referring to all of God's Elect from every nation including National Israel, as God sometimes uses the term, i.e. "the Israel of God", the "Jerusalem above". "All Israel" in verse 26 is not National Israel.
In our day, God is saving a remnant from every nation of the world "a great multitude that no man can number" Rev 7:9.
There is no future salvation plan involving Israel as a Nation. They stand on the same ground as every nation of the world, and have ever since the Cross.
Continued.
Ezekiel 36:24-32.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
NOTICE VERSE 32.
Vs 32. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
NOW REWIND A FEW VERSES AND READ Ezekiel 36:21-23.
WAS THIS FULFILLED IN THE NEWTESTAMENT? NO! ISRAEL COMMITTED ABOMINATIONS IN THE OT ON INTO THE NT AND STILL DOING IT TODAY.
WILL GOD FULFILL HIS UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT? YES.
WHEN? IN THE MILLENNIUM!
DID YOU NOTICE THE LOCATION THIS COVENANT WILL BE FULFILLED? EARTH.
( THAT IS DISPENSATIONALISM.)
We take those promises literal.
One of the worst and most dangerous heresies is to call God a liar and subscribe to replacement theology.
Romans 11:25-26. is DISPENSATIONALISM.
God bless.