Discuss Romans 11 Page 6

JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD SAVE HUMANS

When God created Adam and Eve (the first two humans) they soon disobeyed Him, believing the lie of Satan that they would be like God if they ate of the forbidden tree. Adam and Eve did not know what sin was, and did not know that disobedience would make them more like the tempter and unlike God. God knew this would happen, and before creation the Godhead chose to become the Savior of mankind by grace through the vicarious death of the Son of God after He incarnated in human form.

Another decision that the Godhead made before creation was to commit every human person over to disobedience and unbelief in order to have mercy upon humankind. ( Romans 11:32) He decided that the sinful nature would be passed on to every human when a new person is conceived. From conception, every human is corrupted by sin. With this one exception: Jesus was conceived by the power of God, not by the input of man, so He was not conceived with a sin nature. He remained the holy, pure, undefiled Son of God from conception on. He never sinned, never mis-spoke or made a mistake, ever.

because every other human was corrupted by the sinful nature, no one but Jesus could be the Saviour of Mankind. He alone of all humanity was without sin. No one else would qualify to be the perfect human to die for the sins of humanity, not an angel, not an animal, but the pure and spotless Son of God was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

Sometimes we get very caught up in the death and resurrection of Jesus that we forget what qualified Him to be our sacrifice to take away the sins of the world. It wasn't because He loved us, or that He could just decide to do so. No, it was because He was perfect in all of His ways as God and as a man. We should look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, at Who He is and how He lived and died for us. It was all for us - to the glory of God.

continued...

What my first statement means; or I should have said is that we ALL go through a phase more or less known as the "honeymoon" phase after being saved. The proof of true salvation; however next has us go through trials to test us to see if we are truly in the faith or not. There are some who as the parable points out weren't truly "rooted" in Christ hence it was the emotional high which was the cause of the initial excitement rather than joy as say a spiritual gift or proper response to the Holy Spirit's prompting.

I hadn't considered your second point. I'm not sure in the context if it is valid. In one sense the gifts and calling are irrovocable or "without repentance" ( Romans 11:29). Again; much as with the first point; people can get more caught up in the gifts than the giver of the gifts. We also have to consider people's natural intelligence; physical prowess or social standing as something more in line with the idea in James that the rich tend to be oppressors. We also need to realize that someone operating at one time in spiritual gifts doesn't mean their overall walk will be one of great reward if they allow bad fruit to be maintained or sin to gain a foothold. There are those who may not manifest things at least obviously but are committed to loving the Lord and obeying His commandments ( John 14:15). There is also the need for proper use (such as interpretation of tongues); and sharing different gifts with the Body of Christ. These include discernment and wisdom which may not be as dramatic as some others "signs and wonders" type which some believe exist today and some don't. Of course we need to make sure that the "light in us isn't darkness" ( Luke 11:35). Without discernment than anything goes and demons can mimic true gifts. Therefore we have to make sure that "doctrines of demons" don't maintain a foothold ( 1 Tim. 4:1).

Agape.

Matthew 13:47-48

[47]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

[48]Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Confession comes after the net has been cast into the sea 'that is the preaching of the gospel Romans 10:14-15,17

[14]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[15]And how shall they preach,(casting of the net) except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[17]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:9 is not a salvation message to the world. It is given to those that are born again, by water & Spirit as in the book of Acts.

James 1:5, ask GOD for wisdom & understanding as you read. Mark 9:23-24, Romans 11:29-36,

I had to pray many times as I was reading & trying to understand the Bible when I was serious about turning my life to GOD.

If there are certain situations you need help with, in life, you can even use this site to research scripture, questions & answers, or ask questions.

I've found any time I've questioned scripture seemingly contradiction, after deeper reading, prayer & study I find it doesn't.

You can search words, names, phrases.

Hopefully this is helpful

Predestination part 4.

As I likely posted earlier there are certain limits to understanding God's counsel as stated in Deut. 29:29. There is a point such as with Pharaoh where God Himself hardens a man's heart once he has irrevocably hardened his own heart; that is something in His foreknowledge that God determines for every man who is unsaved. We as believers have been "grafted in" ( Romans 11:11-25). The scripture makes it clear that man has no excuse as we see evidence in the Creation and of the Godhead ( Psalm 19; Romans 1). We are "fearfully and wonderfully made" ( Psalm 139:14) and therefore human life is sacred. Or; as the Declaration of Independence states "we hold these truths to be self-evident".

God is a God of Covenants and as He states "all the souls are mine" ( Ezekiel 18:4). This whole chapter I have found as an excellent rebuttal and witness to the Jewish community who occasionally insists on doing a "Mizpah" when they find out one side of my family is Jewish. It states in the same passage that the "soul who sins will die" thus removing any parental privilege in being of any physical descent as well as making all individuals responsible for their behaviors. We need to see here that someone can turn from wickedness to righteousness; and the opposite is true. Ultimately; I would say that Ephesians 4:30 makes it clear that we don't lose our salvation IF truly saved. There are many tares mixed in with the wheat however. Again; that is part of God's plan; as well as using Satan to refine us through temptations and persecutions. Since God created everyone then we are all to be eternal beings in our spirit.

Also as Jesus pointed out to Thomas "blessed are those who haven't seen and yet believed" ( John 20:29). Just look at the Tribulation where; by the way Revelation 13:8 shows Predestination for all those NOT in the Book of Life. Just as in the time Christ was here the first time seeing ISN'T necessarily belief TO SALVATION. REV6:17

Conclusion on last post (2 concepts were things we give up and gain in becoming a Christian).

We therefore; lose our old affiliations and at times family and friends when coming to faith. There are some cases; when these acquaintances can be transformed and the relationship becomes a new dynamic and it becomes better understood how God originally designed them and why.

We also become adopted sons and daughters ( Romans 8:14-17). We are also "grafted in" to the olive branch ( Romans 11:24).

We are now therefore part of that great Body of saints and tied in with those in Hebrews 11. Whatever loss we have now; as Paul stated is rubbish; or as KJV puts it "dung" compared to the surpassing greatness of Christ (Phillipians 3:8).

Amen.

Ryan, prayerfully

I do not agree with your dispensational view of Scriptures and especially that we are to focus on Paul rather than on Jesus or to not heed the Gospels or all of Scripture. I do not divide the Scriptures, prophecy, and history the way dispensationalist divide it up into dispensations.

I do not think that 2 Tim.1:9-11 is speaking of dividing Scriptures up this dispensational way. Jesus never told us to do so and I believe He is the Sovereign of the universe, not Paul, Darby, Scofield, nor Bullinger. I believe this verse is speaking about correctly understanding and teaching about Scripture, not dividing it up into dispensations, whether 7, 9, or whatever a dispensational teacher might say. I also believe that 1 Tim. 3:16-17 tells that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" So, to me, ALL means ALL. I don't think Jesus or any apostle said that any part of Scripture is not "for us". That idea is an addition to Scripture made by Darby, Bullinger and other leaders of dispensationalism.

In Romans 11:13 Paul is simply speaking of the scope of his ministry, to preach to the Gentiles the Gospel of JESUS not the gospel of Paul. He was not making a directive to the Gentiles that we are only to follow what he teaches. JESUS is who we follow. Paul would cringe and be so adamant against what is taught by Darby and Bullinger, and Scofield. He would never amplify himself at the expense of any believer minimizing the teachings JESUS in the Gospels.

Ryan, I say this because I am just as strong in my non-dispensational view as you are in your dispensational view. We do not need to dispute one another on this, in my opinion, but should allow believers to express their view and quote from all books of Scripture without others dismissing any of God's Word as being in applicable to believers.

Hi Stephen.

Who are you talking about?

Don't answer that.

lol.

What a great orator. I so enjoy just listening to him. What is his name?

Hey Bulletpencil,

My understanding, Jesus coming, the Messiah/Christ was not a secret, Daniel 9:25 prophesied when He would come. Jesus came to fulfill the prophets and the law, and when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus, and Jesus was filled without measure, John 3:34.

John the Baptist proclaimed it, John 1:34 and His disciples did as well, John 1:41 Jesus told the woman at the well He was the Messiah, John 25:25-26 and Martha John 11:27. It was confirmed by all the miracles Jesus did by the Spirit of God, Matt. 12:28 the kingdom of God has come, but the death and resurrection were, at that time a secret/mystery, Rom. 11:25.

The kingdom of God has come, John said it was at hand, Matt. 3:1-2. After John was put in prison Jesus came preaching Mark 1:14-15. The mystery of the kingdom; they were looking for the stone to crush Rome and the kingdom would be set up then Daniel 2:44, but it was like the parables of the mustard seed and the yeast Matt. 13, increasing even today until the crushing blow at Jesus second coming.



The disciples knew Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, so I am sure that was part of their preaching, but Jesus' death and resurrection were hidden even from the disciples Luke 9:45. We see how they fled when Jesus was arrested, Matt. 26:56, and they did not believe He resurrected Mark 16:10-11 Luke 23:10-11 it was hidden from them for if Satan had known the results, he would have tried to stop it.

Jesus spoke mainly to the Pharisees and Sadducees in parables to fulfill the prophecy, Matt. 13:10-15 Mark 4:10-13 Luke 8:10. The mystery was not revealed until after Jesus was resurrected as Jesus told them the Holy Spirit would bring remembrance and teaching to them John 14:26 John 16:3-4 Romans 11:25 Romans 16:25 the promise to Abraham Genesis 17:4-7 and that seed was Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

This is my understanding may someone else have another, pray and study for your understanding.

God bless,

RLW

Part 2: Cross references.

One general rule that I believe needs to be practiced is to take any scripture as literally and specifically as possible unless otherwise indicated (such as overt symbolism which is usually defined within the passage as such and the meaning intended).

John 7:38 about "rivers of living water" would be such an example. Ezekiel 47; however gives no indication of the need to make the "fresh water" and the very literal descriptions within the text as being anything but an actual event. In other words; it SHOULDN'T be a cross reference to the John 7:38 verse. We can see even currently fresh water that comes from underground sources that is infiltrating into the Dead Sea; just as we can see the desert starting to bloom as described in Isaiah 35:1. If that verse is taken literally the other should be as well.

There are other things such as 1 Peter 2:9 (cross referenced with Deut. 14:2) that are describing in context the church in the same light as God was delineating His chosen people within the nation of Israel. In both cases there is a REMNANT who are truly called and chosen. Romans 10 describes how we are grafted in and there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile; however the very next chapter shows how eventually the veil is lifted and the blindness of the Jews will change ( Romans 11:25). Isaiah shows how eventually the Gentiles will be blessed; and Zechariah shows how the nation will have to be broken enough to finally recognize their Messiah. The problem in all the cases I've mentioned so far is not the validity of a parallel passage existing but the application of it.

There certainly are cases where things are referred to as cross references when they are really not. Daniel 12:4 is not really tied into any other specific scripture; but in this case the application can be exaggerated especially when other verses that sound similar are referring to another historic event. Nahum 3 is case in point.

Signs of the Rapture (part 4).

The concept of individual salvation as opposed to that of a family or larger association of individuals also can relate to our understanding of the Rapture. As Psalm 40 indicates; "many will see and fear" (verse 3) when we are lifted up from the miry clay possibly a reference to the Rapture/Resurrection of the saints. Romans 11:25 and other verses in Romans 12 may indicate that the Jews finally are provoked to jealousy when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That could also relate to the Second Coming according to some sources citing the Age of the Gentiles ending only when the Temple is cleansed and Christ returns at that time.

That is not something I am debating here. I have stated before that the many testimonies of visions or dreams of the Rapture if not almost all of them only talk about some experience as viewed by the individual themselves; whereas scripturally the whole Body of Christ is called out as a peculiar people; and a Holy Nation ( 1 Peter 2:9). We should note that in Revelation 13 the Beast who is Satan's emissary will curse those on earth AND those who dwell in heaven. The victory of the Rapture and Resurrection of the dead in Christ is for the church and of course primarily to glorify Christ within His church. At the end of every Dispensation there is a remnant preserved from it (such as Enoch and Elijah) and preserved THROUGH it such as Noah and Lot. Such principles; of course are also for the nation of Israel at large being saved (the one third that makes it through) seen in Zechariah 13:9. From Christ until the 144,000 are either translated or resurrected (again a controversy I won't get into here) there is the "firstfruits" (the first of which; of course was Christ). See 1 Corinthains 15 for further insight into these matters.

Concept Five: The unknown (children; infants and mentally disabled) in regard to those Raptured.

My next post will discuss this as well as what may precede this event.

It is true that the Roman Epistle was directed primarily to believing Gentiles, but when we read the whole letter, we see that Paul wanted to bring out the doctrine of Justification by Faith and its ramifications - and this he did in a systematic manner unlike his other epistles. And if one is to properly handle such an important doctrine, then one would have to appeal to where it all began: with God's chosen people, Israel.

The Law was given to them ("the law of righteousness", as Paul calls it in Romans 9:31), but they failed to apprehend it "because they sought it not by faith" (v32). But the Gentiles on the other hand, "attained to righteousness" (v30), not having been given the Law, because they attained it by faith.

Had Israel found righteousness by faith (i.e. through Christ, Who ultimately was their "stumbling stone" (v33)), maybe much of what Paul wrote in Romans chapters 9 to 11, would need not be shared with the Roman believers. But what Paul did share, serves to show how Israel, who was in such a privileged blessed position, lost it; and their loss was the gain of the Gentiles. The Roman believers can now better appreciate the Gospel brought to them & the salvation received through Christ, when they know that "through their (the Jews) fall, salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" ( Romans 11:11). To a Church that neither Paul nor Peter founded, this was an important history & spiritual lesson to the believers: why the Gospel had to be brought 'first to the Jew & then to the Greek' ( Romans 1:16), and that it is by faith alone we all stand (Jew & Gentile) & not by the "works of the law" ( Romans 9:32). From this brief explanation, I hope you can appreciate Paul's need to share this part of Jewish spiritual history in his discourse with the gentiles.

Questions to Sincere Bible Believers (2)

1) If Paul is speaking to The actual Gentiles(non Israelites), why does he state this;

- Romans 9:3-4

- Romans 11:1

- Romans 11:25-27

Dear "Ray", the best thing you can do for you and yours is to read and understand this yourself. If you do not have any references that strengthen their/your statements, there are no firm rules that can come and they mislead and seduce. It doesn't matter who they are. That will only cause confusion. Scripture came first to the Jews. Romans 11:16-24 Moses received the 10 commandments. Deuteronomy Chapter 5. You can read all this here on the web or if you have a Bible at home. If you want to understand more, Genesis is a good place to start. It is basic. Personally, I do not dispute any of the books, or any of the stories in the Holy Script. Psalms 91:11

The best thing for everyone is to read the King James Version. It is absolutely the best understanding translation. An example is: You have probably been to the library and taken a book out of one of the shelves. It seems interesting, but when you open it and read a sentence, you don't understand a single word. The mind is unable to understand what the author wants to say. And other times your eyes run over the sheets and they register everything and you understand everything. Look and you will find, knock and it will open up for you. Pray to the Lord Jesus if you can get revelations and understanding, You can ask for anything, for example that you pray to get a new spirit so that you understand lies. It's good to have with you today. All people who confess Jesus as Lord are from God. Romans 10:9 Fillipians 2:11 Amen. In Jesus name, love u in Christ.

Hi Sinrpaul.

Preachers are to preach the gospel.

Preaching the rapture doesn't bring salvation. The Good news is the message of the cross.

We should be Preaching consequences of sin if we don't accept Christ as Lord and savior.

I engage in discussions on eschatology to show the Lord is going to make good on his promises to Israel. And those unfulfilled promises will be fulfilled in the Millennium. Also the Church and Israel are distinctive.

Acts 15:14-16. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Romans 11:25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Revelation is a climax of what you studied in the 65 other books.

If you don't have some understanding on those books you won't have much understanding on eschatology.

Gid bless.

Galatians 1:19 Paul did not see any other apostles but James the brother of Jesus. Now read on and absorbed what God revealed to us. There is a reason why this verse is important. Other Scholars said that the Book of James was written by James the brother of Jesus. How could that be? The message in James was that faith without works is dead James 2:20 & James 2:26. How can you explained the opposition on Pauls messages Ephesians 2:8-9? It is because the author of James is James the brother of John the sons of Zebedee. That James was killed by King Herod Acts 12:2 about 44 AD or CE. He was not seen by Paul after Paul went to Arabia. That James had written the book of James before James died to tell the 12 tribes what is about to happened in the tribulation ( my opinion after the church age will be raptured) James 1:1. If this was written by James the brother of Jesus, he would have not contradicted what he heard from Paul because he saw Paul right after Paul went to Arabia Galatians 1:17-19. The second part of 2 Timothy 2:15 we are not ashamed to tell all that we must rightly divide the word of truth. Know the physical and spiritual messages of God. It is only revealed when you trust Jesus and not yourself. If you do not rightly divide you will be confuse of your salvation. We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Amazing God we have. I glorify God by telling you this revelation. I please only God and not men. My life is a true testament of God's glory. Who has the mind of God Romans 11:33-36, 1 Corinthians 2:15-16. My brothers and sisters in Christ, if you are a leader in church, let the Spirit of God speaks to you..Take, I pray thee, my blessing that is brought to thee; because God hath dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough. And he urged him, and he took it. Genesis 33:11. But he said, As the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused.

Galatians 1:4-5 Amen. Galatians 1:3.

Hiya Robert GBU .....Lemme tell you that we are now under a new COVENANT by the blood of Jesus....Being a Jew now means we must be bornagain by Promise....Which is the H.G. a Spiritual being....Its only the H.G. that is born by Promise ,Only he is the seed of Jesus....That Promise seed....Its exactly like Romans 9:8 ... says....The Children of the flesh are not the real Children of God its only the Children of PROMISE that are counted for that goodly seed....The seed of Jesus, as his Words are his seeds...If you are not bornagain by his SEED THE WORDS OF God ....He neva knew you thus you will not bring forth any fruit unto God which is the H.G. that Child of Promise....Remember in Acts 1:4 Jesus said behold i send the PROMISE OF MY FATHER upon you which was baptism of the H.G. a birth of a baby Christ in them....That Child of Promise...And it was also new Jerusalem and mt Sion the city of that great King...Gbu Robert.....There is a Child in your future.....Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil CHILD YOU WILL IN NO WISE ENTER THERE IN...

Hi Robert. Was there a particular verse in Romans chapter 11 that leads you to believe that being a Jew is a matter of choice? We are indeed "all seeds of Noah", but not all of us are descended from one of Noah's sons, Shem then many others through to Jacob.

Here are few Scriptures that tell us of this special people, chosen of God, to be His Own: Deuteronomy 7:6; Deuteronomy 14:2; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Psalm 89:3,4; Psalm 105:6, & many more. So Israel, because of their rejection of their Messiah & depending on the Law (to gain righteousness - Romans 10:3,4) have been rejected (cut out of the olive tree). But those amongst them who believe & also from the Gentiles who have turned to Christ, are God's true Israel ( Romans 9:6,7). Maybe, you're thinking of the true Israel that belongs to God.

Exodus 12:48,49, Exodus 20:10, Leviticus 16, Leviticus 17,

Leviticus 18:26, Leviticus 19:33,34,

John 1:12, Romans 8:14,

Acts 13:39, Galatians 2:16, Deuteronomy 10:16, Galatians 6:15, Romans 2:25, Romans 4,

Romans 3:29-30

Here are just a few, there are many, hopefully these are helpful to your study & decision

So reading Romans 11 I was thinking if I wanted to be Jewish couldn't I be one, after all it is a choice right. We are all seeds of Noah and that being true how can one group of people be more Jewish or in Gods favor if we are all from the same seed?

Romans 11:29, Proverbs 24:16, Psalms 139,

Matthew 21:28-29,

Hopefully these are helpful

Revelation 10: Concluding thoughts

Therefore; there is no more holding back judgment (See Jeremiah 15:1 for example). The "plumbline" is drawn ( Amos 7:7-9).

There is a distinct time frame where God says "enough" and Christ is set free with the righteous angels to procure judgment.

We see in the following chapters that in fact He uses Satan by giving him what he always wanted; control over the entire world.

Geographically; he doesn't gain all the territory; but surely with technology and his minions can enforce his mark worldwide through the 10 nations or regional confederacy that rule with him for "one hour". ( Rev. 17:12). It is an interesting sidenote; which I pointed out before about some who fight in the Ezekiel 38 war AGAINST Antichrist. Since one sixth survive it is possible that they did NOT recieve the mark of the Beast and have a chance at surviving into othe Millenium. In Isaiah 49:23 we see kings and queens being "nursing fathers" and mothers as it were (part of that obviously symbolic). In Jeremiah 31:16-17 we see further confirmation of this. This isn't the main point of the passage; but it shows how God may use captivity and even kidnapping to ultimately preserve the lives of children into the Millennium; the alternative being killed in Israel by Antichrist.

We need to see several larger themes here. God is using all this so that FINALLY as Christ is returning the nation will repent; and that in weeping. (see Zechariah 12:12). It seems hard to believe that the nations get it in regard to Christ and God in the sixth seal; and Israel remains blind that long. Romans 11:25 sheds some light on this; in regard to the "fullness of the Gentiles" which could be indicative of the Church Age ending; complete with the Rapture/Resurrections discussed previously.

Altogether; He uses Satan's own planning to draw men to the snare and trap of Armageddon where things come to a swift conclusion. No more delay can occur or no flesh would live ( Matt. 24:22

Further comment. Yes; I agree that those who are "kings and priests" will have a rulership that those who endure martyrdom to produce fruit and prove faithfulness will not as far as the Millenium Kingdom is concerned. Clearly the issue of being raised from the dead isn't just confined to Lazarus but to those that Elijah perfomed this on. In fact; Elijah and the other prophet themselves also will die for 3 1/2 days and rise again. The issue here is the complete decay of the flesh; which didn't occur in that short period of time. All of these individuals died who were miraculously raised from the dead in history. This was a temporary condition; therefore albeit they were dead for a few days. With the 2 prophets they are a type and shadow of Christ NOT having their bodies decay before their permanent Resurrection.

In light of the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiaha 30:7) it is clear that God has a plan for the Jews as a nation and as a whole. We see this also in Romans 11:25; indicating the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in" which would be the end of the church age.

I am not one who argues between dispensation and covenants; as I see both at play here. God has in a sense at that point ended the "Age of Grace" although obviously those saved in all dispensations were saved by grace ( Romans 4). Right now the wickedness is being restrained by the presence of the Body of Christ; the true remnant who are Spirit filled. God did have promises as to the Promised Land and its boundaries; as well as the house of God being a place for prayer for all people. The atoning sacrifice of Christ was able to bring a New covenant as to how God's people were required to worship; and it opened it up in general for Gentile nations. As Christ stated the "Gospel of the Kingdom" ( Matt. 24:14) won't be preached to all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man returns. It was cut short and is held back by politics; it will resume in full after the Rapture.

Daniel 12:1 admittedly is confusing as it would seem that the time of trouble when His people are raised when considering all the other events beforehand make it seem like the midpoint of the Tribulation. My point was that the 24 elders clearly represent all the saints; and it would make sense that it would be the O.T. and N.T. ones from "all nations". So somehow it is the literal elders as well as all those symbolized by all believers; that was my point; perhaps the original text is worded to make that point clearer than the translation. Whether those who have "fallen asleep" are Resurrected at the same time being part of the church age; or the O.T. saints are raised later on is a mystery to me. I suppose in some sense with the 2 prophets Elijah if not Enoch as well have the final Resurrection at the midpoint as Elijah never died (following the Hebrews 9:27 principal). Just thought of that. The other aspect which you haven't asked me about is my whole view that those in white garments after martyrdom represent believers who are lukewarm and left behind. I suppose that is contentious as well; given my reasoning and scripture as a whole it isn't worth dividing over; but I want to remain faithful to the text. As to the rapture being a reward and not a salvation issue; and how we define the wrath that we as a church aren't going to go through is a complex issue. I say this in all honesty for many now that is the only thing this side of heaven that will cause a real move of God; certainly that is the case for the Tribulation saints there will be a countless multitude. As to whether there is some overlap of the Age of Grace with the Tribulation is a tough subject. Surely; as Psalm 40 seems to implicate; many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay which could refer to the Rapture; as well as whatever provokes the Jews to jealousy ( Romans 11:14; also see Deut 32:21 I just found that also! Hope these things won't cause too much strife.

Marke - Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and (falling) headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression (fell), that he might go to his own place.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

How can you fall out of a tree if you never was in the tree? It makes people feel good to think they are going to heaven no matter what they do. Many people are going to be deceived and fail because they love not the truth.

Luke, I read the context before and after Romans 11:4. Romans is written by Paul, but he is referencing God. The 7000 is referring to Jews. To this day, how many Jews accepted Yeshua as their Messiah? I seen a video by a Gentile street preacher, who made the mistake of preaching Jesus the Christ in Jerusalem. Immediately, there was a violent reaction by a Jew. He kept spitting and yelling at the street preacher.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Once the 144,000 are sealed with the seal of God, the 5th trump sounds, Satan's fallen angels are here.

God's very elect are the 7,000 from all races, Acts 2

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

What did God tell Satan & his angels, Touch not My Elect, that have the seal of God in their forehead

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them (Satan & his angels) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Those who have the seal of God(Sealed)during the Hour of Temptation will not be touched by this wrath, which IS the wrath of God.

All who are alive and remain go through the tribulation, question is DO YOU HAVE THE SEAL???

ROMANS 11:25 For I desire not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret, in order that ye should be not wise with yourselves;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.