Hope you don't mind me barging in attempting to answer your question. It is something that has mystified me over the years.
Getting over the preliminaries; that is making sure that we aren't living in unconfessed sin and grieving the Spirit; and that we truly ARE sensing the Spirit and not some other influence I will post several ideas.
First off; there are individuals going through struggles within the Body of Christ who we may never have met that the Lord wants to intercede for. Whatever a battle is going on in the spiritual dimension we are all involved as soldiers of Christ as I see it. Romans 12:15 says to rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn for those who mourn. There are often demons who are going after us as well as our loved ones or again; those who may be nearby who are also fighting some of the same evil forces.
We realize that only in Christ did the Spirit work without measure ( John 3:34). This did NOT mean for Him that He didn't have to endure suffering and a feeling of abandonment at the crucifixion but no doubt other occasions; just as Paul also felt many had abandoned Him. He had the exceedingly great revelation ( 2 Corinthians 12:2) but nonetheless had the thorn in his flesh afterwards to keep him relying on the Lord for His strength (verse 7 in same chapter).
It is prayer which helps us to garner our strength; and therefore equip us for the battle. This key element the enemy will do all he can to thwart as there is nothing he can't stand like the Spirit truly moving in a local body of believers.
There are people who are living in a lifestyle of sin who can also quell the Spirit. There are also warnings about not having hands laid on hastily as someone could be operating in a different spirit ( 1 Timothy 5:22).
It is indeed mysterious how these things operate; but if we learn to discern His voice and have long term obedience producing good fruit we will have these experiences more frequently. Hope that helps...
Verses 10-12 state: And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
This passage illustrates the reaction of Joshua after they were routed in battle. Joshua lamely states that it would have been better to not have entered where they were than to be routed by the Amorites. He ignores promises 400 years prior about the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites; but is totally blind to the REASON for the event; which boiled down to one person coveting gold and other things which were cursed objects somehow tied into the demonic realm that were; as the rest of the populus to be devoted unto destruction. Joshua 6:18 warns about such behavior; and Achan was the individual responsible and was summarily stoned afterwards; followed by victory on the battlefield. They should have learned from what happened with Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16:32 when they were swallowed up by the earth after trying to usurp the role of Priesthood that Moses had. We see in both these passages that unless the sin was dealt with the entire people would be destroyed.
In today's New Testament church we see Ananias and Sapphira in the same sort of swift judgment in Acts 5. Normally; of course our first priority has to be our own sin but we have to guard not only our own hearts but watch out for the "enemy in the camp" which today often involves "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1); also see 1 Timothy 4:1 on last days false teaching.
Hello Abel wolf: I understand what you are having struggles with and I will pray for you.
Even after we have become born again in Jesus we have a difficult time resisting the devils onslaught of temptations, especially a temper. Would you let me give you some advice from someone who's been there and done that? In your prays, not only ask God for strength to overcome your temper, which I know you are doing, but also pray a sincere prayer for the people who are causing the anger, that God will bring good to them. No matter who they are or their spiritual condition just leave it up to God to decide what that good is. Trust God that He will work in you and them, to bring you to a place where you are living without a bad temper. Also ask God to help you to apologize for losing your temper. In time you will mature in this and even if it rear it's ugly head once in a very little while you will be strong enough by then to overcome it quickly and apologize if that is necessary. So trust God that He is working in you because your heart is longing for this. You mentioned you were jealous of your sister because she had YOUR iPad. Whenever this happens, perhaps go to your prayer closet and ask God to give you a loving spirit toward your sister and then go to her and treat her with kindness and tell her she may use it for as long as she likes. Show her the unconditional love of Christ and, if you can, buy her one as a gift, perhaps for her birthday. That's what the scripture means when it says 'pour coals of fire on your neighbors head." Romans 12: 29-21. "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Again, I will be praying for you and I hope this helped. God Bless :)
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
Thanks for your reply and explanation of yourself. Good to know.
I agree that we are to share from the Word on this site. And, if we are indeed a fellowship of believers, we are to build one another up and encourage on another ( 1 Th. 5:11; Romans 12:10) through love and supportive words.
Have a good day, Jema. Though we are different in personality, we are one in Christ, thankfully. How wonderful is this that God has called both of us to salvation and into the fellowship of the church!
I am glad to hear you had a great time over the holidays, I hope you were able to rest your heels of travel. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that the reformation begins, and the Holy Spirit inspires true worship. Worship is our response to what the Spirit reveals to us about God.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We do this with our renewed minds led by the Spirit not with our wisdom and emotions, they can be deceived. Being deceived is to be easily caught up or carried away or taken out of the way, the favorite tool of Satan, like prey taken in the mouth of a lion.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: If we are deceived, we are devoured. We must be vigilant daily to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, Jesus. Daily, as the Apostles did in the beginning, preaching the Gospel of Jesus every day, Acts 2:46-47Acts 5:42Acts 16:5.
Hi Mary Jay. As you know, we don't align in our understanding of the Scriptures, but thought to address this one post from you as an example.
In answer to your question, I exist as a physical person, now saved & revived by the Blood of Christ & His Spirit, joined to the Body of Christ. Am I "the BODY of Christ?" NO. My understanding of the Scriptures is that the Body of Christ is the Church ( Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18,24). So, I'm not the Body, Christ is; I am a part of that Body, the parts of which comprise the Church ( Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14). There can only be one Body, or else, if each member is the Body of Christ, then Christ is no longer the Head of His Church but the Head of each person. And though 1 Corinthians 11:3 states, "...that the head of every man is Christ...", this verse speaks about the position, in the spiritual realm & of the Church presenting before God, of woman to the man, of man to Christ & of Christ to God.
So with Galatians 2:20, my understanding of "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me...", is that my life that I now live is not my own (my ownership), but belongs to Christ (His ownership) with Christ (by His Spirit) Who now lives in me. This is a personal relationship with the risen Christ, with Whom all others who completely identify with Him, also enjoy. Thus together we form His Church, which is His Body; so the individual can never be Christ's Body - only His Church can be, which is the collection of believers.
And wishes to you too Mark & your family at this time of Thanksgiving. You've shared a few Scriptures, which I will address.
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle was concerned for the Church's behavior: vv 2-4 (disagreements, unloving, discord, striving & not esteeming). And of course, he gives the supreme example of the Mind of Christ in his Coming in the form of a Servant. So Paul goes on to write (v12), 'therefore as you have obeyed me in the past, not just when I'm around but now when I'm not with you, work out (put into practise/into operation) what your salvation has brought you, and do so in trembling & fear (in all diligence & seriousness)': my paraphrasing. "work out your own salvation" is the big question here. If it were to 'find your own way to God', or 'now that you are saved, make all effort to remain saved', then I don't believe that was Paul's teaching. As one Bible teacher often preached, "you have been given the gift of Salvation, now work it out in your life", i.e. 'be constantly in step with the Spirit, being humble before God, scrutinizing your life, keeping short accounts with Him; you can't add anymore to your salvation, or else it's no more of Grace but of works, so be diligent to not be slack but mindful of God's great Grace & your position in Christ'.
"His Faith". I did mean, God's Faith given to man to believe & to be exercised with. Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 12:3, are good examples - the Gift of God given to us is 'Grace AND Faith', for man's faith is incapable of apprehending the fullness of Christ's Sacrifice at the Cross for him & being exercised to please God.
1 Corinthians 9:27. A 'castaway' what Paul was referring to, was that he would be disqualified from this high calling if he was hypocritical by preaching salvation through Jesus & the power of that Risen Life, & yet be undisciplined in dealing with the appeals of his flesh. In this case, he would have failed - and maybe removed from ministry, even from earthly life itself. GBU
We use Brothern to loosely today. Everyone amongst us is not a Brother or a Sister!
Look at the example Jesus gives in Matthew 12:47-50.
"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Romans 12:3 says not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We all have flaws and we're all of one body ministering by the same Spirit, having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us by "THE GIFT" (Christ Spirit.) We are to exercise those gifts by the power of Christ Spirit.
We are to Love one another; I've declared that on this site since I've been on it using John 13:34-35 as a springboard.
Also, 1 John 4:20-21 and Matthew 7:15-16.
We shall be known by our fruit, not our gifts!
CAN YOU GENERATE THIS ON YOUR OWN?
Love amongst the brothern is not partial.
It's not determined by race, wealth, political parties, Gender, status in the church, or one's eschatology.
Love at its highest level is Agape. It's caused by the Holyspirit that knits us as one. It's to be totally given over to.
I've seen where one says he have the gift of discernment but yet he shuns other Brothern.
If you have an issue with a brother, you restore him. Galatians 6:1-4.
We must look out for each other. James 5:20 says, "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Confrontation may be difficult, but it is not loving to allow a professing Christian to continue in a sin that will bring God's consequences upon him.
Carleton, When I speak of demonic influence, I mean that literally!! I'm not name calling. Yes, I believe in that and I believe in demons also. There is no Holy kiss for that person!! This Holy kiss of acceptance is to and for the Brothern.
Romans 12:9 says Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Abhor means to detest, or to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely.
When someone doesn't hold the truth that's one thing, but when someone stands in the way of the preaching of the cross of Christ that's another and it's evil. That's not a brother.
Look at Paul in Philippians 3:2. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Paul calls them the enemies of the cross of Christ. And he says to MARK them! Philippians 3:17-19.
How do you reconcile these scriptures?
1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Listen to Paul in Titus 2:15. To rebuke someone is to admonish or convict. convince one of a fault. "This is from brother to Brother. Him you kiss, not an enemy of the cross of Christ.
We have those amongst us that promote a legalistic means of Justification that the scriptures identifies them as "Enemies of the cross of Christ." The scripture doesn't say greet them with an Holy kiss. In fact it says "Mark them which walk so"
However atleast they promote righteous living! They're just not justified before God in their efforts without a rebirth.
This person here in question, for the past three years or so doesn't promote righteous living at all! And they don't promote the acceptance of the work of Christ on the Cross as THE means for salvation! Would you say he's a Brother?
Luke 6:40] The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
John 17:23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
After:
Acts 3:16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Romans 12:2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1st Cor 2:6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1st Cor 1:10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Philippians 3:15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Col 1:28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
2nd Timothy 3:17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hebrews 13:20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
[21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Amen, when the preacher behind the pulpit does not believe in perfection, neither will the church. The man of God has to be perfect, unlike what we hear today unbelief.
We get mixed up all the time, because our old mind hasn't totally BEEN RENEWED to the mind of Christ.
The end of the world is one example.
The end of the world (age) (in the fullness of time) came when Christ was resurrected, he said: Behold, I make all things new.
Probably a more accurate translation would be the end of the AGE, or the fullness of time.
The 1000 year reign with Christ is NOW, running parallel, with this age, but we are not of this age, because in the fullness of time we became a new creation.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this age, be be ye TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING (all things have become new) of your mind.
He give us the parable of the seed, Christ, being the SEED.
The corn plant was the example.
If you plant a corn SEED in the ground, that SEED will DIE, and a green plant will emerge, that looks nothing like the SEED that was planted.
That plant grows and as it matures it slowly begins to naturally die, then the SEED is harvested by the farmer, and the good SEED is put in the barn.
It's put in the barn to be used as FOOD and for REPLANTING.
This is exactly what happen to the new new creation.
Christ the SEED, DIED, and was raised up, the green plant raised up with Christ (you and I), looks nothing like the SEED, but when we become mature (by the words of God), God sends the angels and they harvest us, our body that brought the SEED to maturity, is no longer needed, it goes back to the ground it came from, and the SEED goes back to the barn to be used as FOOD and REPLANTING SEED.
The OLD saints, now chariots of fire, and all that have been harvested in the last 2000 years, have become SEED for eating and replanting, they are workers in God's vineyard, all called at different hours of the day, they are causing you to mature and become a SEED.
1 Corinthians 13:12 states: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This relates to our perception of Christ; but also of course in glory we will see other saints in their eternal bodies as well for the first time. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
For now we do get glimpses; should we take the time to discern them of the Holy Spirit uniquely working in each true saint of God.
In physical appearance we still may look the same at least to the world to our early life when we were still in the world. Our identity is in Christ if indeed we are saved; and we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds ( Romans 12:2). Glorification will give us bodies it would seem like Christ when He could go through walls or doors ( John 20:19); we will be able to eat and drink ( Rev. 19:9; compare with Luke 24:42-43; and Mark 14:25). We will also rule and reign with Christ after returning with Him at Armageddon ( Rev. 19:14; Rev. 2:26-27).
Having no more suffering as promised in Revelation 21:4 and no more death certainly is an encouraging throught. I would submit that understanding the reasons for all of our earthly struggles may be even more poignant than understanding the suffering itself. We can take heart that Christ has His church as a reward; and we also can rejoice (or should) in one another and the time on earth invested in the Body of Christ as well as helping to fulfill the Great Commission. Again; it is rewards that are the variable that we are to strive for as seen in 1 Cor. 9:24-27. I am convinved many who receieve great rewards are relatively unknown at present praying in their closet; giving secretly to missions and serving under the radar. God sees the heart (see Heb. 4:12).
Truth mixed with falsehood: further thoughts on O.T. and N.T. and on "cherry picking" scripture
When David wrote in Psalm 119 that he loved the law; it was not necessarily for the regulations itself; at least to the main theme; but it was the nature of God and His righteousness where knowing the Lord personally; such statements could be made. Isaiah 30:10 is a warning that people wanted to hear smooth things; and that reminds us that we can't selectively pick verses that seem encouraging to us. We also have to look at such texts as 1 John 4. Verse 12 shows that we must love one another; but further inspection on this and the entire book of 1 John shows what agape love is; it has to be a perfect love and goes against the flesh where people in the flesh tend to pick and choose who they love. (see 1 John 3:15-16). We could say the same thing in a subject like prosperity. God promised Abraham would become great; and blessed him greatly with possessions. Nonetheless; the cost of this was having to wander around as a nomad in what would become eventually the territory of the Promised Land.
Again; in regard to the law it is actually held to a greater standard in the New Testament as to thoughts and intentions of the heart (see Matthew 5:28). God is also still concerned about vows and covenants made such as with marriage and we cannot live as the world and expect to inherit the Kingdom of God. The lawless one is coming ( 2 Thess. 2:9-12). God has written the law in our hearts ( Rom. 2:15).
The Dominionist concept of the church taking over the world before Christ comes back is clearly in opposition to such verses as 1 Timothy 4. We aren't in a Theocracy where we can be expected to conquer as Israel did; we also can't exact restrictions more than Christ did with soldiers ( Luke 3:14); where Christ didn't try to make them lay down their arms. We can learn to wait on God as Romans 12:19 suggests. May we read and apply all scripture in a sound manner.
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19 KJV
"I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides." Philemon 1:19 KJV
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Cain offered a sacrifice to God. But it wasn't acceptable unto God. Why not? Because God gave specific instructions on how a sacrifice should be offered, Similarly nowadays (think about the word "holy").
Thank you for your response, your words of encouragement mean a lot to me, as well all the relevant scripture regarding worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, and overcoming sin. I agree with all, and if we our honest with ourselves and take the time to evaluate our true walk with Christ we should be conforming to the scripture you mentioned such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 1 John 1:5-6 and if born again should have a mind like Christ 1 Corinthians 2:16
Scripture tells us we can have a mind like Christ! Not conformed to this world, but have renewed minds, and prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God Romans 12:2 Sinning is not acceptable to God, and for Christians to maintain the steady drum beat that they can't stop sinning is unbelievable per all of the scripture telling us that we are required STOP sinning, even including Jesus telling us that with Faith nothing is impossible for us! Matt 17:20
We are supposed to be as HOLY as Jesus and walk like him.Through the Spirit of God we CAN stop sinning. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:6 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12:50 The Bible emphasises several times that we are supposed to be holy:Ye shall be holy: for I theLordyour God am holy. Leviticus 19:2
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 Frankie, I think we can both agree that being perfect is without sin. But the multitude of worldly Christains say they can't ever be perfect and will always be sinners in this life - so they are saying Jesus/God is lying in Matt 5:48 and they are not accepting this Truth!
X. THE DESCRIPTION OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE ( Romans 12:1 - 16:24)
The first one is instruction, the doctrine of transformation in Romans 12. This is our participation in the body of Christ.
In Romans Chapter 13, we have institution, the doctrine of submission. This is our participation with the system of the world and submission.
Then we have influence, the doctrine of sacrifice. This would be Romans 14:1 through 15:13, as we learn about our participation in the responsibility toward other believers. Uh Oh! That is the doctrine of sacrifice. It is not taught as a suggestion!
Next is identification, the doctrine of the providence of God. This is Romans 15 Verses 14 through 33 which is the participation in the will of God in all of our situations.
And then the interaction, the doctrine of fellowship which is Romans 16 Verses 1 to 24. Romans 16:1 to 16 are personal greetings, Verses 17 to are proper discipline. In other words, once we get to Romans 16 Verses 17 to 20, he's going to say that if you are in association with anyone that is not obeying and teaching the proper doctrine of the book of Romans, don't have anything to do with them.
That's a pretty serious thing to say, especially in our day and our culture when love is supposed to rule over truth. You know? We don't hold anybody to the truth, we got to love them! Paul says, "Well, I got some discipline for you.
In Romans 16:21 to 24, we have the people that were with Paul. They identify themselves.
Interaction - The Doctrine of Fellowship ( Romans 16:1-24)
Thank you Frankie J. You wrote: "I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under
the penalty of sin consequences." Actually, I always go back to the original post or question, i.e. "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?"
I apologize, I understood that your original question did imply (or at least seeking) answers to that question of reaching perfection in our earthly lives. And from our discussions, I gathered that you did in fact believe that it is possible to do so; so sensed that you might be at or near that blessed state. Whereas the basis of these discussions between us is that my belief is that we will never reach that state in this life: our spirits might be renewed & made pure, but we still live in corrupt flesh & thus sin ever waits to manifest itself & it does so.
Yet, your statement continued: "Yet (the body?) can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession." This is the point of our difference. As you wrote: "wholly, not of position only, but possession". Yes, we are 'sanctified wholly', but I'm afraid that what it boils down to is that your understanding of sanctification or wherever 'perfection, complete', etc. are used, you take it as being perfectly pure/clean now. And I think you will remember from my previous comment, that I don't subscribe to this type of application; even citing examples from 1 John 4:17 & Romans 12:1. So I think we need to leave that matter there, as we simply cannot reconcile those (& other) verses to what we believe.
Hi Frankie J. Getting to the fundamentals here: you quoted Luke 6:40 (the Greek is 'karkatizo', meaning 'made complete, prepared'). The context is not about being pure or perfectly free from sin "as his master", but the 'one who is fully trained or fully prepared for the work, can be the master/teacher'.
1 John 4:17: "Herein is our love made perfect" (Gk: teleioo = to be made complete); i.e. 'he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him' (v16): true love is made complete when we are truly abiding in God.
Romans 12:1: "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God". (Gk: hagios (holy): set apart for God, sacred). That is how we come before God presenting ourselves: holy by position - holy by purification. The apostle's earnest plea is that we come with clean hands & pure hearts. Sinless? Can never be - our sin nature is still with us, but we can come with all sin confessed & clear pure consciences.
To the rest of your comment with supporting Scriptures, it appears again that you equate the new life in Christ as being freed from sin. It is true that we have been cleansed & our spirits have been made new & in that sense absolutely perfect. But we still live in bodies of flesh, sin & corruption. If the new birth dealt with that matter of perfecting our bodies (the flesh), I would fully agree with you, but the Bible never teaches that & experience always shows that the spiritual battle over sin can never end but rages every moment of the day, some succumb to it, others find victory. But in the end, confession & correction restores fellowship & cleansing of the heart & conscience - it never makes one sinless. If you find disagreement here, then maybe you can outline what you consider as sin - for this point may well be where our misunderstanding lies. GBU.
Our walk with Christ involves our spirit testifying with His Spirit that we are indeed children of God ( Romans 8:16). In actuality, I have that verse quoted backwards but it helps to bring home the message. Campus Crusade for Christ used to have as part of it's 4 points to the Gospel that our feelings should never be at the head of our decisions but faith in God. Christ is the captain of our salvation ( Heb. 2:10). Be thou my vision is an old hymn which typifies this concept. In our love for Christ and being part of His Body (the church) we should indeed have agape for one another; feelings as it were of love that is above and beyond this world and it's affections hence tranforming our minds. ( Romans 12:2).
Experientially; however we are prone to look at some nostalgia that somehow we can return to an Edenic state of innocence; as God has put eternity in our hearts. However; to live for ourselves is of course antithetical to living for Christ whichinvolves dying to self. However; the example of Christ being fully God and fully man demonstrates how real emotions of sadness or grief and indignation can be expressed as He sympathizes with us as our High Priest ( Heb. 4:14-16).
In a sense; we have the future hope in resurrection and the glory of the future rule and reign of Christ where we put our treasure. All things are good indeed if blessed by God; whether finding a wife; or meats etc. But sacrifice is something foreign to human nature; if we do such a deed in our own strength it is either to fulfill some longing we have; or for pride or some sort of satisfaction. What doesn't jive with humanism is revealing the root cause of sin; our sin nature and being willing to expose death so that indeed His chosen ones can have life. In the flesh we are only attracted to what our minds are attracted to with our five senses; the Lord operates outside that but we still react to it as vessels of His temple in us ( 1 Cor. 3:16-17).
Psalm 68:6 talks about setting the lonely in families; and Psalm 27:10 says that even if parents forsake us God will take us up (rough meaning).
From my experience; it seems in the Reformed circles the family unit is held in high esteem and in the denomination I was last in before I had to move there basically was a network of extended families that pretty much arranged for favorable meetings for young people to fellowship and often marry those who were at these events; thus pretty much continuing the expansion of the church. Other denominations tend to be more or less dominated by those in their own nuclear families and tend somewhat less to invite strangers into conversations or to their homes.
Whatever the accuracy of my own assessment; we are adopted sons and daughters according to Romans in many passages; Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4:6-7. It is commonplace; nonetheless whether with our blood relatives or church family to default to hanging out with those we find interesting in one form or another and often neglecting the ministry such as rebuke; exhortation and encouragement when necessary. We see passages such as "He rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19; Hebrews 12:6 and others) and tend to only think of God Himself doing that work. However; we are to exercise such behaviors as 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us to. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep likewise ( Romans 12:15). To behave this way first we need to have a listening mindset; rather than spend much time with needless chatter when we fellowship. Again; the reformers seem to have a better handle on that with some not allowing any discussion apart from the Lord on Sundays. I'm not setting a legalistic mandate here; but suggesting that such boundaries eliminate useless banter; and worse a sin of omission not ministering to those in need who are too polite to interrupt discussion about sports teams; work exploits or just general complaining of the state of affairs in the world today.
Basic points: Scripture makes it clear that we as believers are to "suffer for His name's sake" ( Philippians 1:29). We are given a new heart with our stony heart removed ( Ezekiel 36:26). We are to love the brethren ( 1 John 3:14) if we have "passed from death to life." We also love our enemies ( Matt. 5:44) and we should read the entire passage to meditate on how we pray for them who despitefully use you"; etc. We are aliens ( 1 Peter 2:11-12; see also 1 Chron. 29:15) and not of this world. We are truly born again and seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6) and our treasure is now in heaven as well ( Matt. 6:20-21). We understand that we were saved as hopeless sinners and therefore serve as "unworthy servants" ( Luke 17:7-10). We still have peace that passes understanding (Phillipians 4:7); and is not of this world ( John 14:27).
With all this we have an understanding of how we have been called and chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29).
We learn to love His ways and His Word; trusting God for the difficult and hard scriptures and sayings as well. A true believer is being transformed by the renewing of His mind ( Romans 12:2) and is concerned about the needs of others; particularly within the house of God. Hebrews 13 as well as Paul's example ( 2 Cor. 11:28) despite the persecutions he endured. We desire to grow and also must believe He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Heb. 11:6). That means we also desire to win the prize of the high calling (Phillipians 3:14). Therefore those in Christ should be careful not to lose their reward ( Rev. 3:11).
All this being said; there are examples of those who think they are saved but are not; as well as those who make it into heaven but suffer loss. Evidence of fruit can be seen in time; and each of us are responsible to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Seek and ye shall find ( Matt 7:7-8
Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4 - Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Matthew 6:24 - No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
John 8:36 assures us that with the Son we are "free indeed". Freedom; in short is opposite of what the world follows as we are slaves or bondservants of Christ ( 1 Cor. 4; 7). To follow the prince of this world and all its temporary pleasures is, in reality; a dead end whereas His riches in glory for those who love Him are eternal for those saints which are already seated with Him in "heavenly places." ( Eph. 2:6).
When seeking His will and petitioning prayers; it is His Covenant promises which we can tenaciously proclaim as it is His binding contract with His people that He has made with His good pleasure. This is certainly different than just seeking those things that seem most convenient to make us more comfortable in this life. It truly is best when His life is the guide to our lives and He can be the "captain" of our salvation ( Hebrews 2:10). It is this or being shipwrecked; as it were which is a warning for those who fall away ( 1 Timothy 1:9 as a general admonition along with specific individuals in other Pauline writings).
It is helpful, therefore to have brothers more mature in the faith as "iron sharpens iron." ( Proverbs 27:17). We should also have our individual walk grow to maturity with our quiet times; prayer life and devotionals. John 6:45 shows that we shall all be taught of God; so we should learn to discern His voice from the cacaphony that rings in our ears.
As adopted sons of God ( Gal. 4:5) we are granted therefore all the blessings and substance of the inheritance. The eternal riches in Glory certainly outweigh any earthly pleasures ( 2 Cor. 4:17). We should strive therefore to remain steadfast and remain in His will. The flesh is dying daily in terms of the outward man (see previous verse 16) but the inward man is being conformed to His image. (see Romans 12:2). To deny ungodliness is true freedom ( Titus 2:12) despite our natural affections that seem to indicate the contrary.
I have studied a number of accounts of the firsthand experiences in the Asbury college event. It seems that things are fairly consistent with true repentance; scripture readings and some other things that at least don't put any red flags as to falsehood.
Apparently this went on there in 1970 as well. I am also aware of the other high school events of the last 4 or 5 years where there was a short burst of school prayers in several places.
Today; I heard a video from someone who attended that university about 15 years ago who was called to pray daily for such an event; with an exhortation from another person as to the fact that the fruition of such a prayer for revival may not happen while they were there but would be effective in a future group of people. This is the first point that I feel is important; that most things are paved ahead; as Paul states one waters and God gives the increase ( 1 Cor. 3:6-8). This principle also holds true; no doubt for evangelism. We could even extend it to the end times; for prayers for a mountain to move ( Rev. 8:8; Mark 11:23). We don't know exactly how; but we are told "vengeance is mine; I shall repay ( Romans 12:19). The sants who die as martyrs in Revelation will surely be vindicated; with the bowl judgments in Revelation as well as eternal consequences including ruling and reigning during the Millennial Kingdom over the earth for true saints of God.
Obviously; there needs to be a proper guaging with discernment of how this move proceeds as time goes on. For now; another positive aspect is that big name preachers have largely stayed out of it at least as to being in the limelight. No doubt there will be; probably for financial gain an intrusion at some point either from false apostles and preachers; or those who identify as working for Satan as a test of faithfulness. The enemy is well entrenched and we are promised persecution as all are who are godly ( 2 Tim. 3:12). Let us diligently rpay.
Getting over the preliminaries; that is making sure that we aren't living in unconfessed sin and grieving the Spirit; and that we truly ARE sensing the Spirit and not some other influence I will post several ideas.
First off; there are individuals going through struggles within the Body of Christ who we may never have met that the Lord wants to intercede for. Whatever a battle is going on in the spiritual dimension we are all involved as soldiers of Christ as I see it. Romans 12:15 says to rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn for those who mourn. There are often demons who are going after us as well as our loved ones or again; those who may be nearby who are also fighting some of the same evil forces.
We realize that only in Christ did the Spirit work without measure ( John 3:34). This did NOT mean for Him that He didn't have to endure suffering and a feeling of abandonment at the crucifixion but no doubt other occasions; just as Paul also felt many had abandoned Him. He had the exceedingly great revelation ( 2 Corinthians 12:2) but nonetheless had the thorn in his flesh afterwards to keep him relying on the Lord for His strength (verse 7 in same chapter).
It is prayer which helps us to garner our strength; and therefore equip us for the battle. This key element the enemy will do all he can to thwart as there is nothing he can't stand like the Spirit truly moving in a local body of believers.
There are people who are living in a lifestyle of sin who can also quell the Spirit. There are also warnings about not having hands laid on hastily as someone could be operating in a different spirit ( 1 Timothy 5:22).
It is indeed mysterious how these things operate; but if we learn to discern His voice and have long term obedience producing good fruit we will have these experiences more frequently. Hope that helps...
Verses 10-12 state: And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
This passage illustrates the reaction of Joshua after they were routed in battle. Joshua lamely states that it would have been better to not have entered where they were than to be routed by the Amorites. He ignores promises 400 years prior about the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites; but is totally blind to the REASON for the event; which boiled down to one person coveting gold and other things which were cursed objects somehow tied into the demonic realm that were; as the rest of the populus to be devoted unto destruction. Joshua 6:18 warns about such behavior; and Achan was the individual responsible and was summarily stoned afterwards; followed by victory on the battlefield. They should have learned from what happened with Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16:32 when they were swallowed up by the earth after trying to usurp the role of Priesthood that Moses had. We see in both these passages that unless the sin was dealt with the entire people would be destroyed.
In today's New Testament church we see Ananias and Sapphira in the same sort of swift judgment in Acts 5. Normally; of course our first priority has to be our own sin but we have to guard not only our own hearts but watch out for the "enemy in the camp" which today often involves "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1); also see 1 Timothy 4:1 on last days false teaching.
See Romans 12:19 on God's vengeance.
Even after we have become born again in Jesus we have a difficult time resisting the devils onslaught of temptations, especially a temper. Would you let me give you some advice from someone who's been there and done that? In your prays, not only ask God for strength to overcome your temper, which I know you are doing, but also pray a sincere prayer for the people who are causing the anger, that God will bring good to them. No matter who they are or their spiritual condition just leave it up to God to decide what that good is. Trust God that He will work in you and them, to bring you to a place where you are living without a bad temper. Also ask God to help you to apologize for losing your temper. In time you will mature in this and even if it rear it's ugly head once in a very little while you will be strong enough by then to overcome it quickly and apologize if that is necessary. So trust God that He is working in you because your heart is longing for this. You mentioned you were jealous of your sister because she had YOUR iPad. Whenever this happens, perhaps go to your prayer closet and ask God to give you a loving spirit toward your sister and then go to her and treat her with kindness and tell her she may use it for as long as she likes. Show her the unconditional love of Christ and, if you can, buy her one as a gift, perhaps for her birthday. That's what the scripture means when it says 'pour coals of fire on your neighbors head." Romans 12: 29-21. "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Again, I will be praying for you and I hope this helped. God Bless :)
1 Corinthians 3: 16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
Thanks for your reply and explanation of yourself. Good to know.
I agree that we are to share from the Word on this site. And, if we are indeed a fellowship of believers, we are to build one another up and encourage on another ( 1 Th. 5:11; Romans 12:10) through love and supportive words.
Have a good day, Jema. Though we are different in personality, we are one in Christ, thankfully. How wonderful is this that God has called both of us to salvation and into the fellowship of the church!
I am glad to hear you had a great time over the holidays, I hope you were able to rest your heels of travel. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that the reformation begins, and the Holy Spirit inspires true worship. Worship is our response to what the Spirit reveals to us about God.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We do this with our renewed minds led by the Spirit not with our wisdom and emotions, they can be deceived. Being deceived is to be easily caught up or carried away or taken out of the way, the favorite tool of Satan, like prey taken in the mouth of a lion.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: If we are deceived, we are devoured. We must be vigilant daily to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, Jesus. Daily, as the Apostles did in the beginning, preaching the Gospel of Jesus every day, Acts 2:46-47 Acts 5:42 Acts 16:5.
God bless,
RLW
In answer to your question, I exist as a physical person, now saved & revived by the Blood of Christ & His Spirit, joined to the Body of Christ. Am I "the BODY of Christ?" NO. My understanding of the Scriptures is that the Body of Christ is the Church ( Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18,24). So, I'm not the Body, Christ is; I am a part of that Body, the parts of which comprise the Church ( Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14). There can only be one Body, or else, if each member is the Body of Christ, then Christ is no longer the Head of His Church but the Head of each person. And though 1 Corinthians 11:3 states, "...that the head of every man is Christ...", this verse speaks about the position, in the spiritual realm & of the Church presenting before God, of woman to the man, of man to Christ & of Christ to God.
So with Galatians 2:20, my understanding of "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me...", is that my life that I now live is not my own (my ownership), but belongs to Christ (His ownership) with Christ (by His Spirit) Who now lives in me. This is a personal relationship with the risen Christ, with Whom all others who completely identify with Him, also enjoy. Thus together we form His Church, which is His Body; so the individual can never be Christ's Body - only His Church can be, which is the collection of believers.
Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle was concerned for the Church's behavior: vv 2-4 (disagreements, unloving, discord, striving & not esteeming). And of course, he gives the supreme example of the Mind of Christ in his Coming in the form of a Servant. So Paul goes on to write (v12), 'therefore as you have obeyed me in the past, not just when I'm around but now when I'm not with you, work out (put into practise/into operation) what your salvation has brought you, and do so in trembling & fear (in all diligence & seriousness)': my paraphrasing. "work out your own salvation" is the big question here. If it were to 'find your own way to God', or 'now that you are saved, make all effort to remain saved', then I don't believe that was Paul's teaching. As one Bible teacher often preached, "you have been given the gift of Salvation, now work it out in your life", i.e. 'be constantly in step with the Spirit, being humble before God, scrutinizing your life, keeping short accounts with Him; you can't add anymore to your salvation, or else it's no more of Grace but of works, so be diligent to not be slack but mindful of God's great Grace & your position in Christ'.
"His Faith". I did mean, God's Faith given to man to believe & to be exercised with. Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 12:3, are good examples - the Gift of God given to us is 'Grace AND Faith', for man's faith is incapable of apprehending the fullness of Christ's Sacrifice at the Cross for him & being exercised to please God.
1 Corinthians 9:27. A 'castaway' what Paul was referring to, was that he would be disqualified from this high calling if he was hypocritical by preaching salvation through Jesus & the power of that Risen Life, & yet be undisciplined in dealing with the appeals of his flesh. In this case, he would have failed - and maybe removed from ministry, even from earthly life itself. GBU
Part 4.
We use Brothern to loosely today. Everyone amongst us is not a Brother or a Sister!
Look at the example Jesus gives in Matthew 12:47-50.
"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Romans 12:3 says not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We all have flaws and we're all of one body ministering by the same Spirit, having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us by "THE GIFT" (Christ Spirit.) We are to exercise those gifts by the power of Christ Spirit.
We are to Love one another; I've declared that on this site since I've been on it using John 13:34-35 as a springboard.
Also, 1 John 4:20-21 and Matthew 7:15-16.
We shall be known by our fruit, not our gifts!
CAN YOU GENERATE THIS ON YOUR OWN?
Love amongst the brothern is not partial.
It's not determined by race, wealth, political parties, Gender, status in the church, or one's eschatology.
Love at its highest level is Agape. It's caused by the Holyspirit that knits us as one. It's to be totally given over to.
I've seen where one says he have the gift of discernment but yet he shuns other Brothern.
If you have an issue with a brother, you restore him. Galatians 6:1-4.
We must look out for each other. James 5:20 says, "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Confrontation may be difficult, but it is not loving to allow a professing Christian to continue in a sin that will bring God's consequences upon him.
See Part 5.
Part 3.
Carleton, When I speak of demonic influence, I mean that literally!! I'm not name calling. Yes, I believe in that and I believe in demons also. There is no Holy kiss for that person!! This Holy kiss of acceptance is to and for the Brothern.
Romans 12:9 says Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Abhor means to detest, or to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely.
When someone doesn't hold the truth that's one thing, but when someone stands in the way of the preaching of the cross of Christ that's another and it's evil. That's not a brother.
Look at Paul in Philippians 3:2. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Paul calls them the enemies of the cross of Christ. And he says to MARK them! Philippians 3:17-19.
How do you reconcile these scriptures?
1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Listen to Paul in Titus 2:15. To rebuke someone is to admonish or convict. convince one of a fault. "This is from brother to Brother. Him you kiss, not an enemy of the cross of Christ.
We have those amongst us that promote a legalistic means of Justification that the scriptures identifies them as "Enemies of the cross of Christ." The scripture doesn't say greet them with an Holy kiss. In fact it says "Mark them which walk so"
However atleast they promote righteous living! They're just not justified before God in their efforts without a rebirth.
This person here in question, for the past three years or so doesn't promote righteous living at all! And they don't promote the acceptance of the work of Christ on the Cross as THE means for salvation! Would you say he's a Brother?
See Part 4.
Luke 6:40] The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
John 17:23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
After:
Acts 3:16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Romans 12:2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1st Cor 2:6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1st Cor 1:10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Philippians 3:15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Col 1:28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
2nd Timothy 3:17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hebrews 13:20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
[21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Amen, when the preacher behind the pulpit does not believe in perfection, neither will the church. The man of God has to be perfect, unlike what we hear today unbelief.
There is no end of the world.
Ephesians 3:21 .... world without end ...
We get mixed up all the time, because our old mind hasn't totally BEEN RENEWED to the mind of Christ.
The end of the world is one example.
The end of the world (age) (in the fullness of time) came when Christ was resurrected, he said: Behold, I make all things new.
Probably a more accurate translation would be the end of the AGE, or the fullness of time.
The 1000 year reign with Christ is NOW, running parallel, with this age, but we are not of this age, because in the fullness of time we became a new creation.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this age, be be ye TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING (all things have become new) of your mind.
He give us the parable of the seed, Christ, being the SEED.
The corn plant was the example.
If you plant a corn SEED in the ground, that SEED will DIE, and a green plant will emerge, that looks nothing like the SEED that was planted.
That plant grows and as it matures it slowly begins to naturally die, then the SEED is harvested by the farmer, and the good SEED is put in the barn.
It's put in the barn to be used as FOOD and for REPLANTING.
This is exactly what happen to the new new creation.
Christ the SEED, DIED, and was raised up, the green plant raised up with Christ (you and I), looks nothing like the SEED, but when we become mature (by the words of God), God sends the angels and they harvest us, our body that brought the SEED to maturity, is no longer needed, it goes back to the ground it came from, and the SEED goes back to the barn to be used as FOOD and REPLANTING SEED.
The OLD saints, now chariots of fire, and all that have been harvested in the last 2000 years, have become SEED for eating and replanting, they are workers in God's vineyard, all called at different hours of the day, they are causing you to mature and become a SEED.
Matthew 20:1-10
Isaiah 59:21
Isaiah 66:15
2 Kings 6:17
God Bless YOU!
1 Corinthians 13:12 states: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This relates to our perception of Christ; but also of course in glory we will see other saints in their eternal bodies as well for the first time. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
For now we do get glimpses; should we take the time to discern them of the Holy Spirit uniquely working in each true saint of God.
In physical appearance we still may look the same at least to the world to our early life when we were still in the world. Our identity is in Christ if indeed we are saved; and we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds ( Romans 12:2). Glorification will give us bodies it would seem like Christ when He could go through walls or doors ( John 20:19); we will be able to eat and drink ( Rev. 19:9; compare with Luke 24:42-43; and Mark 14:25). We will also rule and reign with Christ after returning with Him at Armageddon ( Rev. 19:14; Rev. 2:26-27).
Having no more suffering as promised in Revelation 21:4 and no more death certainly is an encouraging throught. I would submit that understanding the reasons for all of our earthly struggles may be even more poignant than understanding the suffering itself. We can take heart that Christ has His church as a reward; and we also can rejoice (or should) in one another and the time on earth invested in the Body of Christ as well as helping to fulfill the Great Commission. Again; it is rewards that are the variable that we are to strive for as seen in 1 Cor. 9:24-27. I am convinved many who receieve great rewards are relatively unknown at present praying in their closet; giving secretly to missions and serving under the radar. God sees the heart (see Heb. 4:12).
When David wrote in Psalm 119 that he loved the law; it was not necessarily for the regulations itself; at least to the main theme; but it was the nature of God and His righteousness where knowing the Lord personally; such statements could be made. Isaiah 30:10 is a warning that people wanted to hear smooth things; and that reminds us that we can't selectively pick verses that seem encouraging to us. We also have to look at such texts as 1 John 4. Verse 12 shows that we must love one another; but further inspection on this and the entire book of 1 John shows what agape love is; it has to be a perfect love and goes against the flesh where people in the flesh tend to pick and choose who they love. (see 1 John 3:15-16). We could say the same thing in a subject like prosperity. God promised Abraham would become great; and blessed him greatly with possessions. Nonetheless; the cost of this was having to wander around as a nomad in what would become eventually the territory of the Promised Land.
Again; in regard to the law it is actually held to a greater standard in the New Testament as to thoughts and intentions of the heart (see Matthew 5:28). God is also still concerned about vows and covenants made such as with marriage and we cannot live as the world and expect to inherit the Kingdom of God. The lawless one is coming ( 2 Thess. 2:9-12). God has written the law in our hearts ( Rom. 2:15).
The Dominionist concept of the church taking over the world before Christ comes back is clearly in opposition to such verses as 1 Timothy 4. We aren't in a Theocracy where we can be expected to conquer as Israel did; we also can't exact restrictions more than Christ did with soldiers ( Luke 3:14); where Christ didn't try to make them lay down their arms. We can learn to wait on God as Romans 12:19 suggests. May we read and apply all scripture in a sound manner.
"I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides." Philemon 1:19 KJV
Part 5.
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
Thanks for replying and God bless.
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Cain offered a sacrifice to God. But it wasn't acceptable unto God. Why not? Because God gave specific instructions on how a sacrifice should be offered, Similarly nowadays (think about the word "holy").
Thank you for your response, your words of encouragement mean a lot to me, as well all the relevant scripture regarding worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, and overcoming sin. I agree with all, and if we our honest with ourselves and take the time to evaluate our true walk with Christ we should be conforming to the scripture you mentioned such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 1 John 1:5-6 and if born again should have a mind like Christ 1 Corinthians 2:16
Scripture tells us we can have a mind like Christ! Not conformed to this world, but have renewed minds, and prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God Romans 12:2 Sinning is not acceptable to God, and for Christians to maintain the steady drum beat that they can't stop sinning is unbelievable per all of the scripture telling us that we are required STOP sinning, even including Jesus telling us that with Faith nothing is impossible for us! Matt 17:20
We are supposed to be as HOLY as Jesus and walk like him.Through the Spirit of God we CAN stop sinning. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:6 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12:50 The Bible emphasises several times that we are supposed to be holy:Ye shall be holy: for I theLordyour God am holy. Leviticus 19:2
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 Frankie, I think we can both agree that being perfect is without sin. But the multitude of worldly Christains say they can't ever be perfect and will always be sinners in this life - so they are saying Jesus/God is lying in Matt 5:48 and they are not accepting this Truth!
GBU
X. THE DESCRIPTION OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE ( Romans 12:1 - 16:24)
The first one is instruction, the doctrine of transformation in Romans 12. This is our participation in the body of Christ.
In Romans Chapter 13, we have institution, the doctrine of submission. This is our participation with the system of the world and submission.
Then we have influence, the doctrine of sacrifice. This would be Romans 14:1 through 15:13, as we learn about our participation in the responsibility toward other believers. Uh Oh! That is the doctrine of sacrifice. It is not taught as a suggestion!
Next is identification, the doctrine of the providence of God. This is Romans 15 Verses 14 through 33 which is the participation in the will of God in all of our situations.
And then the interaction, the doctrine of fellowship which is Romans 16 Verses 1 to 24. Romans 16:1 to 16 are personal greetings, Verses 17 to are proper discipline. In other words, once we get to Romans 16 Verses 17 to 20, he's going to say that if you are in association with anyone that is not obeying and teaching the proper doctrine of the book of Romans, don't have anything to do with them.
That's a pretty serious thing to say, especially in our day and our culture when love is supposed to rule over truth. You know? We don't hold anybody to the truth, we got to love them! Paul says, "Well, I got some discipline for you.
In Romans 16:21 to 24, we have the people that were with Paul. They identify themselves.
Interaction - The Doctrine of Fellowship ( Romans 16:1-24)
Romans 16:1-16 - Personal Greetings
Romans 16:17-20 - Proper Discipline
Romans 16:21-24 - People with Paul
Thank you Frankie J. You wrote: "I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under
the penalty of sin consequences." Actually, I always go back to the original post or question, i.e. "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?"
I apologize, I understood that your original question did imply (or at least seeking) answers to that question of reaching perfection in our earthly lives. And from our discussions, I gathered that you did in fact believe that it is possible to do so; so sensed that you might be at or near that blessed state. Whereas the basis of these discussions between us is that my belief is that we will never reach that state in this life: our spirits might be renewed & made pure, but we still live in corrupt flesh & thus sin ever waits to manifest itself & it does so.
Yet, your statement continued: "Yet (the body?) can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession." This is the point of our difference. As you wrote: "wholly, not of position only, but possession". Yes, we are 'sanctified wholly', but I'm afraid that what it boils down to is that your understanding of sanctification or wherever 'perfection, complete', etc. are used, you take it as being perfectly pure/clean now. And I think you will remember from my previous comment, that I don't subscribe to this type of application; even citing examples from 1 John 4:17 & Romans 12:1. So I think we need to leave that matter there, as we simply cannot reconcile those (& other) verses to what we believe.
1 John 4:17: "Herein is our love made perfect" (Gk: teleioo = to be made complete); i.e. 'he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him' (v16): true love is made complete when we are truly abiding in God.
Romans 12:1: "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God". (Gk: hagios (holy): set apart for God, sacred). That is how we come before God presenting ourselves: holy by position - holy by purification. The apostle's earnest plea is that we come with clean hands & pure hearts. Sinless? Can never be - our sin nature is still with us, but we can come with all sin confessed & clear pure consciences.
To the rest of your comment with supporting Scriptures, it appears again that you equate the new life in Christ as being freed from sin. It is true that we have been cleansed & our spirits have been made new & in that sense absolutely perfect. But we still live in bodies of flesh, sin & corruption. If the new birth dealt with that matter of perfecting our bodies (the flesh), I would fully agree with you, but the Bible never teaches that & experience always shows that the spiritual battle over sin can never end but rages every moment of the day, some succumb to it, others find victory. But in the end, confession & correction restores fellowship & cleansing of the heart & conscience - it never makes one sinless. If you find disagreement here, then maybe you can outline what you consider as sin - for this point may well be where our misunderstanding lies. GBU.
Our walk with Christ involves our spirit testifying with His Spirit that we are indeed children of God ( Romans 8:16). In actuality, I have that verse quoted backwards but it helps to bring home the message. Campus Crusade for Christ used to have as part of it's 4 points to the Gospel that our feelings should never be at the head of our decisions but faith in God. Christ is the captain of our salvation ( Heb. 2:10). Be thou my vision is an old hymn which typifies this concept. In our love for Christ and being part of His Body (the church) we should indeed have agape for one another; feelings as it were of love that is above and beyond this world and it's affections hence tranforming our minds. ( Romans 12:2).
Experientially; however we are prone to look at some nostalgia that somehow we can return to an Edenic state of innocence; as God has put eternity in our hearts. However; to live for ourselves is of course antithetical to living for Christ whichinvolves dying to self. However; the example of Christ being fully God and fully man demonstrates how real emotions of sadness or grief and indignation can be expressed as He sympathizes with us as our High Priest ( Heb. 4:14-16).
In a sense; we have the future hope in resurrection and the glory of the future rule and reign of Christ where we put our treasure. All things are good indeed if blessed by God; whether finding a wife; or meats etc. But sacrifice is something foreign to human nature; if we do such a deed in our own strength it is either to fulfill some longing we have; or for pride or some sort of satisfaction. What doesn't jive with humanism is revealing the root cause of sin; our sin nature and being willing to expose death so that indeed His chosen ones can have life. In the flesh we are only attracted to what our minds are attracted to with our five senses; the Lord operates outside that but we still react to it as vessels of His temple in us ( 1 Cor. 3:16-17).
From my experience; it seems in the Reformed circles the family unit is held in high esteem and in the denomination I was last in before I had to move there basically was a network of extended families that pretty much arranged for favorable meetings for young people to fellowship and often marry those who were at these events; thus pretty much continuing the expansion of the church. Other denominations tend to be more or less dominated by those in their own nuclear families and tend somewhat less to invite strangers into conversations or to their homes.
Whatever the accuracy of my own assessment; we are adopted sons and daughters according to Romans in many passages; Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4:6-7. It is commonplace; nonetheless whether with our blood relatives or church family to default to hanging out with those we find interesting in one form or another and often neglecting the ministry such as rebuke; exhortation and encouragement when necessary. We see passages such as "He rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19; Hebrews 12:6 and others) and tend to only think of God Himself doing that work. However; we are to exercise such behaviors as 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us to. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep likewise ( Romans 12:15). To behave this way first we need to have a listening mindset; rather than spend much time with needless chatter when we fellowship. Again; the reformers seem to have a better handle on that with some not allowing any discussion apart from the Lord on Sundays. I'm not setting a legalistic mandate here; but suggesting that such boundaries eliminate useless banter; and worse a sin of omission not ministering to those in need who are too polite to interrupt discussion about sports teams; work exploits or just general complaining of the state of affairs in the world today.
Basic points: Scripture makes it clear that we as believers are to "suffer for His name's sake" ( Philippians 1:29). We are given a new heart with our stony heart removed ( Ezekiel 36:26). We are to love the brethren ( 1 John 3:14) if we have "passed from death to life." We also love our enemies ( Matt. 5:44) and we should read the entire passage to meditate on how we pray for them who despitefully use you"; etc. We are aliens ( 1 Peter 2:11-12; see also 1 Chron. 29:15) and not of this world. We are truly born again and seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6) and our treasure is now in heaven as well ( Matt. 6:20-21). We understand that we were saved as hopeless sinners and therefore serve as "unworthy servants" ( Luke 17:7-10). We still have peace that passes understanding (Phillipians 4:7); and is not of this world ( John 14:27).
With all this we have an understanding of how we have been called and chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29).
We learn to love His ways and His Word; trusting God for the difficult and hard scriptures and sayings as well. A true believer is being transformed by the renewing of His mind ( Romans 12:2) and is concerned about the needs of others; particularly within the house of God. Hebrews 13 as well as Paul's example ( 2 Cor. 11:28) despite the persecutions he endured. We desire to grow and also must believe He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Heb. 11:6). That means we also desire to win the prize of the high calling (Phillipians 3:14). Therefore those in Christ should be careful not to lose their reward ( Rev. 3:11).
All this being said; there are examples of those who think they are saved but are not; as well as those who make it into heaven but suffer loss. Evidence of fruit can be seen in time; and each of us are responsible to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Seek and ye shall find ( Matt 7:7-8
Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4 - Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Matthew 6:24 - No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
When seeking His will and petitioning prayers; it is His Covenant promises which we can tenaciously proclaim as it is His binding contract with His people that He has made with His good pleasure. This is certainly different than just seeking those things that seem most convenient to make us more comfortable in this life. It truly is best when His life is the guide to our lives and He can be the "captain" of our salvation ( Hebrews 2:10). It is this or being shipwrecked; as it were which is a warning for those who fall away ( 1 Timothy 1:9 as a general admonition along with specific individuals in other Pauline writings).
It is helpful, therefore to have brothers more mature in the faith as "iron sharpens iron." ( Proverbs 27:17). We should also have our individual walk grow to maturity with our quiet times; prayer life and devotionals. John 6:45 shows that we shall all be taught of God; so we should learn to discern His voice from the cacaphony that rings in our ears.
As adopted sons of God ( Gal. 4:5) we are granted therefore all the blessings and substance of the inheritance. The eternal riches in Glory certainly outweigh any earthly pleasures ( 2 Cor. 4:17). We should strive therefore to remain steadfast and remain in His will. The flesh is dying daily in terms of the outward man (see previous verse 16) but the inward man is being conformed to His image. (see Romans 12:2). To deny ungodliness is true freedom ( Titus 2:12) despite our natural affections that seem to indicate the contrary.
I have studied a number of accounts of the firsthand experiences in the Asbury college event. It seems that things are fairly consistent with true repentance; scripture readings and some other things that at least don't put any red flags as to falsehood.
Apparently this went on there in 1970 as well. I am also aware of the other high school events of the last 4 or 5 years where there was a short burst of school prayers in several places.
Today; I heard a video from someone who attended that university about 15 years ago who was called to pray daily for such an event; with an exhortation from another person as to the fact that the fruition of such a prayer for revival may not happen while they were there but would be effective in a future group of people. This is the first point that I feel is important; that most things are paved ahead; as Paul states one waters and God gives the increase ( 1 Cor. 3:6-8). This principle also holds true; no doubt for evangelism. We could even extend it to the end times; for prayers for a mountain to move ( Rev. 8:8; Mark 11:23). We don't know exactly how; but we are told "vengeance is mine; I shall repay ( Romans 12:19). The sants who die as martyrs in Revelation will surely be vindicated; with the bowl judgments in Revelation as well as eternal consequences including ruling and reigning during the Millennial Kingdom over the earth for true saints of God.
Obviously; there needs to be a proper guaging with discernment of how this move proceeds as time goes on. For now; another positive aspect is that big name preachers have largely stayed out of it at least as to being in the limelight. No doubt there will be; probably for financial gain an intrusion at some point either from false apostles and preachers; or those who identify as working for Satan as a test of faithfulness. The enemy is well entrenched and we are promised persecution as all are who are godly ( 2 Tim. 3:12). Let us diligently rpay.