Discuss Romans 13 Page 4

The CAM missionaries and families were visiting our Church run orphanage and had just left when they were kidnapped.

Let peace be multiplied this day in our hearts and lives.

Good morning/evening Brother Chris, that grace, peace and love can be multiplied in our short walk to Jerusalem by the knowledge of the living Word. Non- resistance is it not the essence of the Gospel and life of our Savior? The presentation of Jesus as the Lamb of God is awe inspiring. That God selected the meekest man to handle the Word of God. The presenter of the Gospel handles the Word of God within and without in meekness, in love and mercy and in non- resistance. Non-resistance the life there of is not for another day (time) nor another people it is today if our hearts stay soft at the Cross. God has always made away for the meek to inherit the earth while time remains.

Not many weeks back, certain lower high school educated Christian brothers were asked to a meeting by the US Selective Service to state their beliefs on non- resistance vs pacifism and how those beliefs include not participating in war activities and how they could offer alternative service to their own young men and soon women and possibly others in the event of a draft to war. It was explained to these brethren that there is a line in the Government provisions to make a way of escape from active war duties for the truly non- resistant professing Christians and Christians that are more involved in active participation in government policies that are against war, they named these people pacifists which may have to do limited war duties.

We think of God's great Providence making a way for the Christian to live and teach the Gospel. So here is a superpower country making provision and protection for non-resistant believers to live. Freedom from fear is apart of this doctrine and life of Jesus Christ in non-resistance.

Can Grace and peace and love can be multiplied in the earth now? Yes is the answer, by faith there is away of escape where meekness may rule in earth.

Thank you Brother Chris for your steadfastness in faith.

Chris That is not my understanding.

Hi Chris It does not say demand tribute or taxes, and the sword is Gods word. Verse 4 For he is the minister of God for good that cannot apply to any government of man, and once again this is written in the context of the church epistles, I.E. apostles prophets evangelists pastors and teachers. Also the sword you mention in the immediate context is against those that do evil.

Thank you brother Carleton. That would indeed be a fine line in my understanding. The child of God must refuse that which is evil, yet not render evil for evil. Maybe you could expand your thoughts as time permits, that we may learn.

Hi Rick. I have re-read Romans 13:1-7 & tried to read it inline with your understanding. However, to do so, doesn't make sense. I've never encountered the Church (elders) bearing the sword against their congregations or an avenger to execute wrath, or even demanding tribute (taxes).

Is that how you read it?

Hello Brother Chris Thank you. There remains a distinction between pacifism and non- resistance on the side of the Word. Even certain Governments may try to understand this line, why?

Hi Richard Something to keep in mind Romans 13 is written to the church of God, so the powers that be are the powers within the church I.E. leadership. It doesn't say obey the any government, the ordained powers are the powers ordained within the church of the body of Christ.

Hello Richard. Like most things in life & people we meet, trust & respect go hand-in-hand when the object is deserving of them. Personally, I don't believe any government is worthy of our complete trust, simply because they are composed of generally unregenerate folk who uphold ungodly standards. Even those who may be believers within the govt. & may be doing their best to bring about changes, ultimately have to submit to their party's policies. And those parties that uphold (some) biblical values, are often too 'minor' to defeat the majority (people's) vote.

Yet, the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans chapter 13, that we have to be subject to the govt., as one who administers the Law, protects society, & of course, receives our taxes. How that Law is made & applied, or how well society is protected, & how well our taxes are used, has to be the determination of the individual at the ballot box. So, my understanding of Paul's reference to this, knowing that the govt. that he was subject to was one of the worst in history for the God-fearing, is to still follow the laws & requirements that they put on society. And generally, they do a fairly good job, but from a biblical perspective, not so well.

Then the question: can we trust our govts. to do the right thing when our faith & Christian way of life are being eroded? We can never trust anyone on Earth in that regard, for none seek after the Will & honour of God, but after their own vain imaginations trying to please as many as they can. We can extend to them our trust, respect & obedience as far as our faith in God & knowledge of His Word allow us - but if that line that we set is crossed, I don't believe that they should be obeyed or respected & are to be treated as enemies of the Cross, with our obedience first to the Lord, & being ready to suffer under their hands.

Should we trust in the government

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The Higher Power & Minister is of God, not man.

I have taken my shots, Some of my family haven't.

With real life tribulations like serious injury as our family experienced this past summer, it affected our abilities to do things that we would like to have done, like eating together as a family at one table. There were many things that are right and good that we could not do. There might have been noticeable gloominess even, but even in this place of second choice, the whole family carried on with Peace in our hearts. Likely noticed by neighbors particularly of the grace upon the one who was injured. Peace is not works, it is a gift from above while living in the flesh by faith.

:)

Thinking of Works, preparations in the flesh kingdom for a future Peaceful Kingdom are not necessary if we believe by faith the Peaceful Kingdom is at hand. The finished Work of Jesus Christ at Calvary which also binds Satan, allows the Kingdom of God to dwell in man. In this Kingdom we are His purpose for His value.

:)

Amen Brother Earl, we are His workmanship.

:)

Amen and Amen, Brother Carleton:

We follow him because of HIS WORK:

Ezekiel 36:27

Philippians 1:29

Thank you Gentle Brothers in Christ for sharing our hearts together. A few thoughts:

The Gospel message for the Christian to share is "To Come". Do we want to hinder this message by the cares of this world? The scriptures say to give honor to those who have authority over us. God has seen to protect His children by authorities in the world so that in the world we can be quiet and stay on message. What is the message? The message He made in our lives by Christ Jesus, our Life, our eternal life, which is seen by our neighbors by our peace and love. We have been bought for a price and we cannot pickup where we left off in our worldly pride and worldly self worth. Our value is in Him. We can be lambs in Him and he is our Shepherd and if we will follow Him we can lay down our lives without fear for our Love that we have for our friends.

Spiritual discernment is needed in medical and political issues in our lives.

Be brave.

:)

Dear Brother ChrisE,

Sorry to hear that you and your family have suffered with the covid, but also very glad to hear that you, and family members affected, have now recovered. We also praise God along with you for the healing.

I also believe that God created his children to have special talents, including the knowledge to use medicine to heal. God provides us with this knowledge to help ourselves as the following scripture mentions.

Revelation 22:2

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

2 Kings 20:7

"And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered."

Even Jesus acknowledges that we may need a physician:

Matthew 9:12

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."

We Praise God for your recovery, as God continues to use others, and methods (Physicians, pharmaceuticals) to help us in the healing our physical ailments.

God Bless.

Precious Billy, I will pray for you. Please prayerfully and carefully Consider God's Word:

God's Will, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE? Very Simply, To "know you're going to heaven":

(1) God Establishes HIS Eternal Relationship With those who humbly:

believe, 100% trust, place Total faith, In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS Death {Precious BLOOD}, Burial, And HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures! ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4) ( Ephesians 2:8-9) ( Romans 3-5)

"GRACE Through faith" In The Merits Of HIS Precious And ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Results:

All sins Forgiven, HIS Eternal Life, And, Peace With God! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PENALTY of sin!} ETERNAL Justification First, And, THEN:

(2) The believer SHOULD do "good works" {Which will NEVER EQUAL CHRIST's PAYMENT For the above PENALTY of sin!}, for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform for HIM, having "been Called into fellowship With HIM!" Amen?:

We "work out OUR OWN salvation" {This SHOULD Be a lifetime of DELIVERANCE From the POWER of sin!} Sanctification:

(2a) Fulfil ALL Of His Law, In "ONE Word: LOVE your neighbor as yourself!" ( Galatians 5:14) ( Romans 13:8-10)

(2b) Study HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, to show yourself Approved Unto God! ( 2 Timothy 2:15) - Have Plenty of examples of this, if you wish...

Eternal Results: reward {or loss} ( 1 Corinthians 3:7-15), ruling and reigning With CHRIST, Which Will FINALLY Be At The Judgment Day:

(3) CHRIST's GLORIFICATION of All "members" Of HIS Body!! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PRESENCE of sin!} = "Going TO HEAVEN!" Amen?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

( 2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =

Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

Precious friend(s), My family and I (3) have had the covid, and, Praise God, have 'recovered.' Our "immunity" should be good for another year, Correct?

I am retired, and Yes, I believe in the freedom to research / 'discuss' this with the family physician, and having the 'choice' of what's BEST for us, whether it is the mandated 'death' injection, OR, "the antiviral meds that work like HCQ and Ivermectin" {thanks Adam}, or, is not there now something called the 'Monoclonal Antibodies' that are also Very Effective?

ChrisE

Good for you Sandra ! An excellent example to use . Stay strong and healthy and happy , much love in Christ .

Very good points, thank you!

Thank you! I did use the book of Daniel for my religious exemption.

Hi Sandra , I'm not anti vaccination , I'm for the freedom to choose , you mention that your workplace is a Christian environment so this scripture might be understood by your boss and workmates . 2 Samuel , Ch24 , especially V10 to 14 . When God offers David a choice of punishments notice David's answer V14 . It could be said that the vaccine represents man's hands . Again I say I'm not anti vaccination . I believe we should all be able to choose .

You should tell your workplace that you've already spoken to the manager. God is the higher authority. We are of God or created by God in the flesh, and work for God in service to God in the spirit. "Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice; 16 and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan. 17 Then Jesus answered, "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? 18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19 And he said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well." Faith heals. Not blind belief.

Your question should be directed at Jesus. He's the Word. Every Disciple was different; but the message was the Samein spirit.

The same applies to all of Jesus's believers; and those in this room every day.

Romans 13: 8-11

Amen Free.

On the surface it seems that Love is what we are told to do, Actually it's what we are "CAUSED" to do!! This bond is only accomplished by the Holyspirit.

By this we function.

By this the law is written in our hearts.

By this the Law is fulfilled.

Romans 13:8-10. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

LOVE WORKETH NO ILL TO HIS NEIGHBOUR: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

Galatians 5:13-14. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

FOR ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD, EVEN IN THIS; THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.

1 John 4:21. And this commandment have we from him, THAT HE WHO LOVETH GOD "LOVE HIS BROTHER ALSO." By this the commandments would be fulfilled ( LOVE WORKETH NO ILL TO HIS NEIGHBOUR:)

If we Love God we ( WILL ) Love our Brothern.

Isn't it amazing we tare one another apart about whether we should keep the commandments or not and we neglect the spirit behind the task.

God bless.

Precious friend, Ron, I will pray for you; since you asked: "What are we to do? I'm not sure any more"? For this confusion, here are Three Scriptural things "to do":

(1) "Examine yourSELF" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5), and, believe God's Truth, for us, Today =

......................................... The Gospel of GRACE:

God Establishes HIS Eternal "Relationship" With those who humbly believe, 100% trust, place Total faith, In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS Death {Precious BLOOD}, Burial, And HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures! ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3-5) = "GRACE Through faith" In The Merits Of HIS Precious And ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Results:

All sins Forgiven, HIS Eternal Life, And, Peace With God! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PENALTY of sin!} ETERNAL Justification First, And, THEN:

(2) The believer SHOULD do "good works" {Which will NEVER EQUAL CHRIST's PAYMENT For the above PENALTY of sin!}, for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform for HIM, having "been Called into 'fellowship' With HIM!" Amen?:

We "work out OUR OWN salvation" {This SHOULD Be a lifetime of DELIVERANCE From the POWER of sin!} Sanctification:

(2a) Fulfil ALL Of His Law, In "ONE Word: LOVE your neighbor as yourself!" ( Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)

(2b) Study HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, to show thyself Approved Unto God! ( 2 Timothy 2:15) {Several helpful "studies" available, IF you wish...}

Eternal Results: reward {or loss} ( 1 Corinthians 3:8-15), ruling and reigning With CHRIST, Which Will FINALLY Be At That Judgment Day:

(3) CHRIST's GLORIFICATION of All "members" Of HIS Body!! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PRESENCE of sin!} Amen?

Precious friend, Ron, Please Be RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!!

In JESUS' Precious Name!!!

Precious friend Ann, thanks for sharing. I will pray for you. Hope this helps:

God's Will, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE? Very Simply:

(1) God Establishes HIS Eternal Relationship With those who humbly:

believe, 100% trust, place Total faith, In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS Death {Precious BLOOD}, Burial, And HIS Resurrection, According To The Scriptures! ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4) ( Ephesians 2:8-9) ( Romans 3-5)

"GRACE Through faith" In The Merits Of HIS Precious And ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Results:

All sins Forgiven, HIS Eternal Life, And, Peace With God! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PENALTY of sin!} ETERNAL Justification First, And, THEN:

(2) The believer SHOULD do "good works" {Which will NEVER EQUAL CHRIST's PAYMENT For the above PENALTY of sin!}, for Which we Are Created In CHRIST JESUS, to perform for HIM, having "been Called into fellowship With HIM!" Amen?:

We "work out OUR OWN salvation" {This SHOULD Be a lifetime of DELIVERANCE From the POWER of sin!} Sanctification:

(2a) Fulfil ALL Of His Law, In "ONE Word: LOVE your neighbor as yourself!" ( Galatians 5:14) ( Romans 13:8-10)

(2b) Study HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, to show yourself Approved Unto God! ( 2 Timothy 2:15) - Have Plenty of examples of this, if you wish...

Eternal Results: reward {or loss} ( 1 Corinthians 3:7-15), ruling and reigning With CHRIST, Which Will FINALLY Be At The Judgment Day:

(3) CHRIST's GLORIFICATION of All "members" Of HIS Body!! {This Is Eternal DELIVERANCE From the PRESENCE of sin!} Amen?

Precious friend Ann, Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified!

Acts 5:27-29

Peter was commanded by the governing authorities, council & high priest, to not preach the gospel. He said we ought to obey God rather than man.

We ought to have peace in our hearts and Christ says be according to each man according to his faith.

The head of every man is Christ and it is better to obey Him than man.

Just because someone or entity tells me something is ok doesn't mean I will eat. Let the Holy Spirit guide you God will always meet your needs.

It seems from the least to the greatest this issue is causing a great division. The Spirit of Christ does not cause division - This is the spirit of the anti Christ. John 10:10 this is the thief.

Christ comes to give us life and life more abundantly.

Trust in God He will direct your steps!

Hello Sandra. Yours is a predicament being faced by many all over the world. And more so for believers, when a Scripture as Romans 13:1 is cast upon an employee.

Firstly, I believe that this Scripture is directed to where a government or their authorized entity is bound by Law to demand something from their citizens, to which, citizens must obey or accept; whether to exact a penalty for a crime, for payment of taxes & other dues, to live properly & peaceably in society, & a whole lot more. Even though the cruel Roman govt. was in power in Paul's days, he was still subject to them, suffering as a Christian.

So, if in your country/state, it has become Law that every citizen has to receive the injection, then you have to obey or suffer the consequences (with a penalty). However, in your question, it seems that the govt. has not enforced the vaccine on all, but it is actually the requirement of your employer. Is your employer under some order from the govt. to enforce this upon employers/businesses, or is it because your employer just wants to ensure that all their staff are adequately vaccinated? If the latter, and they refuse to hear of any dissension on the issue, even if you explain that you fear possible adverse affects on your health or for conscience sake, then the choice is before you. Either take the vaccine or leave the job & trust the Lord for another. But the way things are moving, it appears that unless you're self-employed or retired, one may not get any choice about it in the future. If you have some under-lying medical issue, often a doctor's letter to that effect will help.

In answer to your question, I believe that Romans 13:1 has been misused by your employer as you are subject to him/her only & this has not become a governmental law. To be able to make a choice (especially in this case of vaccinations), this should always be our right (as was done in past epidemics/diseases), but unfortunately, employers also can dictate their requirements.