Discuss Romans 13 Page 7

I am confused. Was reading Roman's 13. It starts with let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. And it goes on to for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God and so on......it just doesn't make sense to me. God is a loving God, so how can He have appointed Hitler? And now with our new party who is for abortion. I just cried because it really hurt my heart. I must be missing something. Hope you can help me. Have a blessed day.

Sometimes it helps to use the word SEARCH box. Search wrath, anger, backbiting. You get the whole panorama on the word and it's use in a sentence.

Romans 13:4

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

2 Corinthians 12:20

For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Galatians 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Ephesians 2:3

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:26

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Ephesians 4:31

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Bil,

The key is found in Matthew 15:19. Jesus said it is out of the heart that murders come from. He's telling the Jews that it is nice that you can control yourself in society and not kill people, but you are still angry and God sees it as murder.

Matthew 5:21-26 gives us the correct understanding of murder. Verse 21 is a Key Verse brought over from Exodus 20:13.

Jesus said, "You have heard," and then He says in Verse 22 "but I say to you." Now that's trouble because He says "You have heard." And so He is making reference to murder and about killing.

He says "You have heard that it was said by them of old times, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you."

It sounds like He is canceling it out, but He's saying that this is what you've been told, but I say unto you. And then He presents three stages of anger. He says anybody that is angry with his brother, and in this case "brother" has to do with a Jew, somebody who is a fellow covenant member.

And then it says, without a cause," is in danger of the judgment, literally the judge!

Secondly, anybody that says Raca is in danger the council. In Greek, RAKA means good for nothing. It's an insult! So first you have inward anger. And then you begin to express it, and it becomes an insult, "you good for nothing!"

And then you say "thou fool," and if you say thou fool, that is slander. That's the Greek word MOREH where we get our word moron from in English.

So you go from inner anger, to insult, and then it comes to slander when you say you fool or you moron. You are in danger of hell fire.

When you say Raca, you are in danger of the council, the supreme court of the Jews, the Sanhedrin. If you say "thou fool" or "you moron," you are in danger of hell fire.

You see, the Jews never heard that before. They can say, "I never killed anybody." Have you ever been angry? If you have been angry, you have killed him already. Now, what are you going to do?

Wondering if Romans 13:9 shouldn't be "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill"?

"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion, I recognize more profoundly than ever the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

Adolf Hitler

What government was Paul talking about when he said to obey them? Romans 13:1-7 The USA is a capitalist nation first and a liberal or conservative somewhere down stream. Which do you prefer, the groups mentioned or the Trump supporters? I see them as being pretty much equal. I don't see many people turning the other cheek, believing in honesty and ethics.

Why has this become part of this discussion? Remember what Jesus told Nicodemus

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:5-6 (KJV)

This might be a good time for prayer and guidance.

Which Jesus? A Jesus that authorized corporate sin of Sunday sacredness? If sin is transgression of the Law and we love Jesus we are supposed to stop sinning through the power of Christ's spirit in faith.. Unbelief has made his bloodshed for naught because we refuse to obey him.. The 4th commandment contains the identity of the law giver making the law valid to stand in the heavenly court.. The mark of the beast crisis will ensnare weak Christians not fortified with the wall of zion..gods very character of LOVE.( the 10 commandments also known as THE COMMANDMENT).. When international Sunday law gets enacted to stem global warming people will be left with 2 choices.. Obey God or obey the commandments of men..( the wine of babylon) a mixture of truth and error..if we follow Christ it shows in our love one for another .. Romans 13:10

Parallel Verses

King James Version

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So you understand Romans 13:1-7 to apply to the authority within the Church? It would be interesting to read other views on this. I've re-read the passage now & just can't fit our Church leaders into that narrative. What sort of Pastor must he be as described in verse 4?

I feel that "to honour those in power" ( Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:17) means that they are to obeyed & respected because of their appointed position & authority. Even when Paul wrote those words in 'Romans', the govt. of the day was one of the most tyrannical, brutal of empires that ruled in that region, yet Paul called for our obedience to them.

Essentially, govts. are formed for the administration of the country's affairs & for the care of its citizens. They are to encompass all types of people with different backgrounds, religions, economic statuses, etc. & to serve them well. Sadly, most govts., even those created under Judeo-Christian bases & ethos, now don't give high regard to the Bible as the Bible can be confronting to these 'other' groups of people. Is this the correct thing to do? A definite, No. Rather than other groups or persuasions conform to biblical standards of living & justice, govts. have weakened & pandered to their demands. We will never see a 'Christian' govt - only when Jesus Christ comes to reign on Earth, will the World see a true & righteous govt. under God.

However, what should our response be? Given that we are to obey the laws, pay our dues, & give govts. due respect, we are not compelled to blindly obey what they might require of us that is clearly against God's Word. So in a sense, we have to pick & choose. In Acts 5:18-29, we see Peter & the apostles imprisoned for healing people - God's angel had opened the prison doors to release them & they went back to preaching - they were subsequently brought before the council & were questioned as to why they continued to preach Jesus; & they responded, "We ought to obey God rather than men." So there are clearly times when disobedience is necessary whenever Christians & the Gospel are restrained in their life & work.

Some countries discriminate & persecute Christians. We can be thankful to our govts. that we still receive water, electricity & education - a few refuse these to Christians.

everything has it's good

Bible doesn't condone slavery. Just because it doesn't address it specifically doesn't mean God allows it. It would be a logical fallacy to make such an assumption. The Bible doesn't specifically say that taking illegal drugs is a sin, like meth, cocaine, heroin, weed. Does that mean it condones it or is ok? No. It instead says your body is a holy temple. The Bible also doesn't say lying is wrong or a sin. Does that mean it's ok to lie? No. It says other places to not bear false witness. Lying is a sin. Colossians 3:9, for example. Watching pornography is obviously a sin, but the Bible doesn't say that specifically is a sin. It instead says all lust is sin. But Jesus took it a step further and said if you even look at a woman in the wrong way you're guilty of the sin. There are many other sins like this that aren't directly addressed, but is clear that it's a sin when looking at the context of all the verses. In many cases the Bible is even more restrictive than some assume.

So, if someone is enslaved and held captive beyond their will, it's obvious it's a sin, because of the mountain of verses showing context, like love your neighbor as yourself, and don't seek vengance- turn the other cheek. Matthew 5:43-48. It even takes it a step further and says to be kind to your enemy, pray for them, help others, and give to those who ask. Luke 6:30-36. There are other indications from the Bible that slavery is a sin as well. The mosaic law of the Israelites was to put someone to death for attempting to trade slaves: Exodus 21:16. In 1 Timothy 1:8-10 it lists 'menstealers' (slave-traders) along with other sins.

Romans 13:7-10. The Bible summarizes the commands as not every sin will be perfectly or specifically addressed, but just love one another. It says love is the fulfilling of the law.

I already explained how slavery is different than servitude common in Bible.

Given the mountain of scripture evidence, it would seem dishonest to claim the Bible says slavery is ok.

Names that refer to God (Devine) should have at least the first letter in capital.

Joe, yes, Rom 13:1-7 does refer to the governments & legal system that have rule & authority by God to administer the necessary laws for the protection & welfare of society. And the apostle Paul states that we are to be subject to them because they are divinely appointed or even permitted by God to perform those functions.

But your question & this passage raises other issues which may be perplexing to those who may be subject to the directives & laws of their governments that are actually "a terror to good works or don't appear to be God's minister executing wrath upon the evil". Of course, in our musings, we are reminded that Paul wrote all this whilst under the authority of the Roman government, which was renowned for its ruthless wickedness. So we have no excuse to debate this issue when our own governments appear to fall far short of God's Standards or of Paul's own instructions to us to obey such systems.

So, in light of Scripture, I believe we still need to obey, or sometimes suffer, under our governments, as they are appointed by God, however knowing that most governments are godless by nature, we have to decide whether there is conflict by what they require and what God requires. So, I believe that in spite of this Romans passage which can be troubling to some who are under repressive & godless governments, believers are still in a position to obey them & come under their rule, yet oppose governmental directives & laws where they clearly oppose God's Directives to us. I personally find this Romans passage one of those difficult portions of Scripture to fully reconcile.

I have a Question:Is Romans Chpt13 vas.1-7 talking about our leaders of our country or what is meant by the higher powers?

I believe that the wisdom shared in Psalm 37 has more to do with a godly person's inward response to evil & evil workers that are constantly around us. We are not to be troubled by them (v1), we are to trust, delight, commit & rest in the Lord (vv 3-5,7), & God's Judgement on them is certain & complete (vv 2,9,10,13,15,17,20,22,28,38). So there are more reminders of God's dealing with those that do wickedly & for us to know that wickedness will always be around us but we need to take care of our personal steps before the Lord (v23).

There are many Scriptures about discipline within Christ's Church, one good example is in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. Once error & sin goes unchecked in the Church, then the 'whole lump' becomes infected & virtually useless. If we don't do our job then God will have to clean it out His Way: first with His gentle correction ( Hebrews 12:5-11) & then more severely ( 1 Corinthians 11:27-32).

And our response to societies' judgement of wickedness? We know that as long as we have godless men in positions of power, whether at the top or in control of the various arms of government, then overlooking sins & miscarriages of (true) justice will always be the order of the day. We are to never condone their acts but we're told to be subject to them ( Romans 13:1-7) as their primary goal is for the care & well-being of society. However, I don't believe it would be wrong to make your views known to them (by letter, newspaper submissions & not by raging marches), particularly as most of us here live in democratic, free speech & expression societies. Many other governments would imprison you for such outward expressions. It's possible that so much of anti-biblical laws passed & disregard to decency by the governments are because that Christians have remained quiet. The Gospel proclamation requires also the proclamation of godless behaviour in all aspects of society.

Hi, True, but even the stars of God call men to repentance. Josephus the historian, said something similar happened with Abraham.

On the justification of Abraham, did this happen also outside of the law?

Scripture tells us, nobody ever sought God. The Lord Jesus said, no one can come to me except the Father, which has sent me,draws. Everyone that hath learned of the Father cometh unto me. He that cometh unto me, (in that way) I will in no wise cast out. Other place, therefore I said unto you, ye cannot come unto me, except the Father draws him. From that many walked no more with Him. For a natural man standing next to Him, this is the normal response. Everyone spiritually dead will react the same way, for

He that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. No works of man,period. Romans 4: 3-4.

The people wanted a king, but God sends leanness in their souls. God gave David being a king after His own heart and Israel was blessed. Rulers who ignore God, are rulers of darkness.

How do we line up to this confession of faith?

"We believe and confess that God has ordained power & authority, & set them to punish the evil, & protect the good, to govern the world, & maintain countries & cities, with their subjects, in good order & regulation; & that we, therefore, may not despise, revile or resist the same, but must acknowledge & honor them as the ministers of God, & be subject & obedient unto them, yea, ready for all good works, especially in that which is not contrary to the law, will, and commandment of God; also faithfully pay custom, tribute & taxes, & to render unto them dues, even also as the Son of God taught and practiced, & commanded His disciples to do; that we, moreover, must constantly and earnestly for the prosperity of the country, that we may dwell under its protection, earn our livelihood, & lead a quiet, peaceable life, with all godliness & honesty; &, furthermore, that the Lord would recompense unto them, here, & afterwards in eternity, all benefits, liberty, & favor which we enjoy here under their praiseworthy administration."

Romans 13:1-7 Titus 3:1 1 Peter 2:17 Matthew 22:21 Matthew 17:27 1 Timothy 2:1

Certainly God hears the prayers of the unsaved! Otherwise, how would He hear your cry for repentance and prayer FOR salvation.

God is ever present, always watching, always listening to all mankind. If you are unsaved, today is the day to repent of your sins, believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, died on Calvary to take your place, arose the third day, and is sitting at the Father's right hand making intercession for you and me every time we sin. I pray you will trust Him as your Savior and become a child of God. All you have to do is repent, believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and accept His salvation! Don't delay, He's coming soon!!!!

Know that only Jesus Christ can take away your sin.

Pray without ceasing.

Study and apply the principles found in Romans chapters 6 through 8.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ( James 4:7)

Walk in the light and confess your sins to the LORD (1 John chapter 1).

Walk in the Spirit ( Galatians 5:16)

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.( Romans 13:14)

Carleton,

I agree that we as believers can freely rest and be justified in God's commandments and enter into the Rest that is given through the grace of Jesus Christ.

You say "Jesus came to fulfill the commandments"?

I disagree.

Jesus came to fulfill the "law" ( Luke 24:44).

One "jot"or one tittle" of the LAW will not pass until ALL is fulfilled ( Matthew 5:18)

These are powerful words from Jesus that should not be dismissed or overlooked. ALL has not been fulfilled yet, therefore the LAW still stands.

Love is the fulfilling of the LAW ( Romans 13:10)

That means that the LAW is still in effect.

Only ONE person that ever walked the earth did not NEED the LAW.

The rest of us need repentance every day, because we break the law every day.

The death and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled blood and other certain ORDINANCES of the Law, but did not abolish the LAW itself.

How can we "rest" in His commandments when we break them?

Our rest comes through faith in our repentance and His promise of forgiveness and a new standing in Him from that.

God gave Hitler his power (Saul wasn't merciful either, but he was made King of Israel by God himself), therefore, if your ruler is bad, you have to obey him, and not kill him not damage his government via terrorism or other methods.

Even the antichrist need God's approval in order to obtain power.

We are to love what God loves and hate what God hates. The evil in our land with all these anarchists is not to be tolerated. They are calling good evil and evil good. Pray that God will win this fight for us, because we can not win this battle between good and evil without Him. Thank you.

Kags

The fact is that I righteous by keeping the law, but through believing that Christ died in my place so that I may live. But being forgiven does not mean you continue in sin. The Decalogue shows the character of God which is Love Deut 6:5, Leviticus 19:18. And John 14:15, 15:14 shows this more clearly. Christ called us into obedience as He did the Israelites, He delivered them from bondage and then gave them His Commandments Exodus 20:1,2. If I claimed to be saved and love God, yet I fornicate, kill, tell lies, steal, disobedient to parents etc, would this bring praise and followers for Christ? Read James 2, 1 John 2:1-6, 1 Cor 6:9-10, 2 Peter 3:16, Romans 13:8-10, 6:23 and you will see.

COPY this down & put it on your fridge.

Satans time is short and he's doing all he can to make us unemployed, sick, scared, suicidal,addicted,sad

1 Samuel 18:4 Exchanging Armor

And Jonathan stripped himself of the ROBE that was on him and gave it to David, and his ARMOR, and even his SWORD and his BOW and his BELT.

Jesus exchanged HIS armor with US. Why?

Because we are warring against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:10-18. Read ALL those center column references to other Books. See Isaiah 24:21-22. Romans 13:1-5,11-12; John 12:31

Jesus did not leave us here to just wear a wedding garment and hold a lamp of oil.

He left us scripture that we're to do spiritual war in the heavenlies. It's about strong faith and prayer: intercession; "standing in the gap". Jesus is making intercession for us right now! People come into the prayer room with grievous problems we SHOULD BE praying & doing war for. Ephesians 6:12, Romans 8:38, Colossians 1:9, 16-17; 2:15. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Standing in the gap is when you hold a lamb in your arms of prayer, and war against the demonic hoards that are trying to kill it; steal its life, destroy its hope in Jesus! It should make you want to save that lamb. Do you have any "lambs" in your life? Are you willing to snatch it out of the hands of Satans hoard of demons, WITH the WORD of God?

You have a wealth of Bible Knowledge but are any lambs being saved with weighty speech? Don't you want to receive a Crown at Bema Seat? What would Jesus do? He showed us in His Gospels. If we are His followers we will imitate what he was Doing.

Multitudes of people are committing suicide for unbelievable reasons. That's on Satans scoreboard. Is there anyone who will challenge that? Do you know how to take the scriptures and frighten the demons off of someone on a chair with a rope around their neck? Or a hypodermic needle going in an arm.

Parents!Pray rightly for your kids. Punch out Satan! We have permission!

Very enlightening to google Bible Covenants! Covenants are very binding and that's why we are warned to not enter one lightly.

1 Samuel 18:4 Exchanging Armor

And Jonathan stripped himself of the ROBE that was on him and gave it to David, and his ARMOR, and even his SWORD and his BOW and his BELT.

Jesus exchanged HIS armor with US. Why?

Because we are warring against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:10-18. Read ALL those center column references to other Books. See Isaiah 24:21-22. Romans 13:1-5,11-12; John 12:31

Jesus did not leave us here to just wear a wedding garment and hold a lamp of oil.

He left us scripture that we are to war against spiritual war in the heavenlies. It's about strong faith and prayer: intercession; "standing in the gap". Jesus is making intercession for us right now! People come into the prayer room with grievous problems we SHOULD BE praying & doing war for. Ephesians 6:12, Romans 8:38, Colossians 1:9, 16-17; 2:15. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Standing in the gap is when you hold a lamb in your arms of prayer, and war against the demonic hoards that are trying to kill it; steal its life, destroy its hope in Jesus! It should make you want to save that lamb. Do you have any lambs in your life? Are you willing to snatch it out of the hands of Satans hoard of demons, WITH the WORD of God?

You have a wealth of Bible Knowledge but are any lambs being saved with weighty speech? Don't you want to receive a Crown at Bema Seat? What would Jesus do? He showed us in His Gospels. If we are His followers we will imitate what he was Doing.

Multitudes of people just in America, are committing suicide for unbelievable reasons. That's on Satans scoreboard. Is there anyone who will challenge that? Do you know how to take the scriptures and frighten the demons off of someone on a chair with a rope around their neck? Or a hypodermic needle going in an arm.

Parents!Pray rightly for your kids. Punch out Satan

Terry, I can't offer any one Scripture to answer your question but the two that come close to that, would be Romans 13:1-5 (speaks of our subjection to our governments & their laws) and Acts 5:29 (when apostle Peter retorted to the High Priest that they would obey God rather than man). So we should be obedient to the government, yet if its laws contradict God's Laws, then our obedience is to the Lord first & foremost. And those occasions would be, when the government forbids the preaching of the Gospel, our attending Church or other laws that work against Christians for the working of their faith. And this evil will ultimately be manifested at the appearing of the Anti-Christ.

Some countries are already facing some persecution now as non-Christian governments oppose the work of Christians. And of course, we see much of this now in the laws from our Western governments as they pass anti-Christian legislation & laws which go against the teachings from the Word. We are grieved by what we see & feel helpless to make a change (even our Christian politicians don't seem to be proactive in this), therefore we are cast upon Him for Strength, Grace & the knowledge that He will bring all sin to light, with many of our government heads facing the greater judgement for their wickedness. The Bible also speaks about those who have the rule over our souls (i.e. Church leaders) as they too will be held accountable for the quality of their leadership & care ( Acts 20:28 & Heb 13:17). So each of us will be accountable, but more so to those who have been placed in power & authority over us.

Russell Rose on Hebrews 13:17. In Titus 3:1 and Romans 13:1 we are told to be good citizens. However, that doesn't mean we have to tolerate tyranny. God has given us the ability to govern. In the US, for example, men, guided by God and Biblical principles, put that ability to work and developed the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. As long as the people in charge of government implement its precepts properly, we ought to form a part of it, support the government and work to improve it.

However, when governments, and that also applies to churches and other organizations, depart from those principles, it is up to us to point it out, speak up and rectify it. See Nehemiah 9:27 and Esther 4:14. Christ worked within the established Roman and religious rules in Israel. However, He also pointed out the contradictions that existed within the religious order of the Jews. Christ wasn't a revolutionary, because He came with a Mission. His Mission was not Social Reform. His Mission was the total defeat and annihilation of death, corruption, evil, pain, suffering and idolatry (exalting other things in place of God).

Robert,

I was unable to respond, as the thread was locked for additional comment. So I am responding here.

The parable of the sower describes four different heart conditions. The condition you bring up is the person represented by the stony ground. They get excited about the things the Lord. They began to blossom with their emotion right away. You begin to see those signs above ground, and it appears to be instant growth. So this person gets excited, but then when it's time to start maturing in the Lord, which comes through trials and tribulations, that person is immediately offended.

They don't have that happy feeling anymore, they are not excited anymore. Now it is time for growth. Now it is time to settle down with the Lord, and they get offended and they leave. That person was never saved. This is not a person that was once saved, and then walked away and lost their salvation. They were never saved, period.

In the Parable of the Sower, there's only one person out of these four that are saved. Only one person bears the fruit of salvation, and that's our number four man. None of the other three bear fruit, meaning none of the other three represent salvation.

It seems as though you are saying that belief in a pre-tribulation rapture would cause someone to be persecuted, or perhaps cause them to forfeit their salvation? Am I just misunderstanding you? Jesus said we can expect persecution for His name's sake. It should be no surprise to us if we are persecuted for identifying with Christ. Thanks for caring about me. I care about you also. But don't be too concerned for me because I believe in Pre-trib. That will not separate me from Christ. I thank you for the YouTube invite, but something deep inside my spirit tells me I need to be cautious, so I will respectfully decline.