Romans
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We are all equal, so we actually are all common folks.
The Hews of the time of Jesus thought themselves to be a superior race and all Gentile inferior or common, even less
human than Jews. How this thought pattern has been repeated in many people groups and societies over the centuries. But it is wrong in every account.
I was just expessing what was the thought concerning Gentiles at that time from the Jewish perspective.
The Jews viewed everyone who was not a Jew as a Gentile, which is often interpreted to mean "common" or "unclean" and not fit to touch not interact with.
That is all I meant. When speaking of the difference between Jew and Gentile, I was referring to how a Gentile is viewed by Jews in ancient times.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I understand your point of view about posts and responses.
Yet, keep in mind that this is a discussion forum, therefore there is nothing wrong with someone responding to posts.
Oftentimes responses help clarify ideas, give additional information, and offer a different viewpoint, and bring correction to what one may think is misinformation.
Even if you do not read or respond back to a response to your post, some of us will still respond for the sake of ALL who read through the posts on this discussion forum. So this is the reason I have responded back to you, but I certainly do not want to bother you.
God bless you, Grae
Jews are the descendants of Judah, so there were no Jews before Judah. Israelites are descendants of Jacob, so there were no Israelites before Jacob
Hebrews are the descendants of Eber, of which Abraham is one descendant. Ever is a descendant of Shem, so there were no Hebrews before Eber.
God had not separated out the chosen nation yet in the times of the people I mentioned. So everyone was gentile (commoners).
I fully agree with GiGi.
Jesus came to take on the penalty of sin.
Romans 5:12-19. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
God bless.
The Lord can meet you right where you are and present Christ.
God bless.
My nderstanding is that the work of Christ on the cross. Stretches. Forward to the end of time and backwards to creation, not just for the people of His days on earth. So, I believe "Gentiles" prior to Christ are saved by His work and grace including Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem, Japheth, and man of their descendants who live before there were Israelites, and even between Abraham and Jesus' time. It is up to God to judge all of this who lived from creation to the end of time, no us. He alone knows the hearts of all people and is the only righteous Judge
I remember hearing many, many years ago of missionaries going out to a people groups, both distant & isolated from any society - they had never seen any other faces apart from their own tribe & maybe a warring tribe. Though many of God's servants who go out to such unknown places are rarely received well & may soon lose their lives as being intruders or bringing forth 'another god'.
But we did hear of a couple of instances when those particular tribes, when they saw these 'white men', believing them to be gods, heard the Gospel & received it with joy & thanksgiving. No doubt great efforts to communicate were made prior to sharing Christ. Apparently, God had been preparing their hearts for this time (as He prepared His servants to be challenged to go out to the tribes), & these tribes had declared that for a very long time, they sensed that they were doing evil & had no knowledge or method of getting forgiveness & help, and as well, that they believed that someone would come one day to guide them. One could only envisage the joy on both the hearts of the hearers & the proclaimers, & the wonderful change wrought in each heart there with the assurance of being accepted by the Lord. These tribal folk knew absolutely nothing about God or the Gospel, but when hearing the Message, everything fell into place & they glorified the God of all flesh.
It's in the heart of every person to yearn for such Truth & help to live according to righteous standards. But many have turned to false gods & self-flagellation, or tried to deaden their evil consciences by good works or filling their lives with substitutes, so that even the liberating healing power of the Gospel becomes a Message for derision & hatred. Man will stand without excuse in that Day.
Part 7 of 7.
(3) Gentiles were not required, but had the privilege of, joining the Hebrew family via the proselytization process (cf. Acts 2:10; 13:16). Additionally, there were many instructions in Moses' law designed to benefit the "strangers" (Gentiles) who came among Israelite people ( Leviticus 19:33ff).
(4) The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh ( Jonah 3:1). Archer said that the theme of the book of Jonah "is that God's mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance" (1964, 295). Jonah is sometimes called "the first apostle to the Gentiles."
(5) Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah-Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba-in both legal and biological senses ( Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32).
(6) In addition, the prophets clearly revealed Jehovah's redemptive concern for the Gentiles, who were to be grafted into the New Testament church on an equal basis with the Jews ( Genesis 17:4; 22:18; Psalms 2:8; Isaiah 42:1, 6; 49:6; cf. Romans 11:1ff; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11ff).
Conclusion
There always has been a way for honest people to be right with their Creator-if they seek after him and choose to please him ( Acts 17:27ff). God so loved the entire world and gave his Son as a potential redeeming sacrifice for all who avail themselves of his gift ( John 3:16). He is the loving benefactor to everyone who submits to his will in faithful obedience ( 1 Timothy 2:4; Hebrews 5:8-9; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).
Article by Wayne Jackson.
I share this information for one to go over. I haven't had the time to do no more than glance over the beginning being I'm out town on business again.
Hopefully some others can share on this great question you asked.
God bless.
Part 6.
EVIDENCE OF DIVINE CONCERN FOR THE GENTILES. Continued.
(1) The practice of offering sacrifices as atonement, typically foreshadowing the coming of Jesus, apparently was a human requirement from the very commencement of history. Abel, son of Adam and Eve, brought the "firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof" ( Genesis 4:4). The offering must have been killed, otherwise he could not have presented the fat, which was the best part. Moreover, we are told that "righteous Abel" (so designated by Jesus [ Matthew 23:35]) offered his sacrifice "by faith" ( Hebrews 11:4), which, in the overall context of this chapter, clearly is an objective faith grounded in revelation, and not that which was subjectively whimsical.
When Noah departed from the ark after the waters of the flood subsided, he built an altar and offered sacrifices of every clean animal and bird, and Jehovah was pleased with his offering ( Genesis 8:20-21). What compelled him to do such?
Melchizedek, whom Abraham encountered on his return from the rescue of his nephew, was designated by Moses as a "priest of God Most High" ( Genesis 14:18). A priest is an appointed servant who officiates in the offering of sacrifices to atone for sin. The modernistic notion that Melchizedek was merely the "high god" priest of the Canaanites (e.g., Baal), worshipped in pre-Israelite Jerusalem, is absurd (Hicks 1962, 343). God would hardly have chosen a Baal-worshipper to be a type, prophetically previewing his Son ( Hebrews 7:3). See also Leupold (1942, 463).
(2) The entire world population was one in kind prior to the call of Abraham. He was the first to be designated a Hebrew ( Genesis 14:13). The Hebrews were not set apart as a distinct people until the giving of the law of Moses ( Exodus 19:5-6; cf. Ephesians 2:14). It is wholly unrealistic not to recognize that God's love for the Gentiles was a part of the ancient world.
See Part 7 of 7!
Part 5.
Incidentally, Hume conceded that there is no rational excuse for the worship of many gods.
Were men led into the apprehension of invisible intelligent power by contemplation of Nature, they could never possibly entertain any conception but of one single Being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine and adjusted all its parts to one regular system (quoted by Monser 1961, 494).
This speaks to the issue of the Gentile idolatry described in the context of Romans 1:20ff.
Professor Alan Johnson, a respected biblical scholar, tells of a missionary in northern Brazil who once observed a native enter his village. He was extremely nervous and fidgety, and his brow was covered with sweat. He seemed quite uneasy, even in the presence of his friends. Later, it was discovered that he had just killed a man from another tribe-although it was not considered wrong to kill a member of some other tribe, and he would not have been condemned by his peers. The man obviously was under the internal pressure of a guilty conscience (1976, 44; emphasis added).
The conscience is a part of the human package, and it demonstrates a moral chasm between men and women and other biological creatures of our planet ( Genesis 1:26-27).
EVIDENCE OF DIVINE CONCERN FOR THE GENTILES.
Though the Old Testament story is mainly the story of the Hebrews' role in God's wonderful plan for human redemption, there are numerous glimpses in the sacred literature of the early history of divine interest in, and provisions for, Gentile salvation.
See Part 6.
Part 3.
(3) There is a fundamental fact of human history. Humanity was created in the image of God ( Genesis 1:26-27). This does not have reference to the physical features of humankind, for God is not physical ( Matthew 16:17; John 4:24; Luke 24:39); rather, as noted above, it alludes to intangible qualities that were created resident in the spirit of the person. This aspect of human personality is what Paul called conscience. The English word derives from the Greek term, syneidesis, a compound term signifying "to know together." It reflects a common knowledge that human beings share with one another of a sense of religious and moral culpability.
As one scholar noted: "According to Romans 2:14-15 conscience is innate and universal. It is not the product of environment, training, habit, race impression, or education, though it is influenced by all these factors" (Rehwinkel 1999, 136). The ancient Gentiles, therefore, were not judged by the same rule as the Jews, but they were not void of law and culpability. Elsewhere the matterhas been described in this way:
[T]he threefold workings of the law, in that the guidance of their heart predisposes them to know the right, the testimony of their conscience bears witness with their heart that the right is preferable, and lastly, after the deed is done, their thoughts or inward reasonings accuse or excuse them according as their act has been wrong or right. These well-known psychological phenomena, observable among the Gentiles, are proof conclusive that they are not without law, with its power and privilege of justification (McGarvey and Pendleton n.d., 313).
See part 4.
Part 2.
The Inward Law
The ancient Gentiles were not judged by the same rule as the Jews due to the fact that the Hebrews had a written revelation from God (the law of Moses, and eventually the completed body of the Old Testament Scriptures), while the other nations did not; the Gentiles, therefore, were evaluated by a more general standard than the Jews. Paul wrote:
Romans 2:14-16.
From this text, as well as supplementary data, the following facts can be deduced:
(1) While the Gentiles did not have a written law (e.g., the law of Moses) certainly on occasions they had communications from Jehovah (cf. Genesis 3:9; 4:6; 6:13ff; 12:1ff, etc.), and divine traditions surely were echoed across the centuries.
(2) There is something "written within the heart," i.e., in the human psyche, that "by nature" (physis) urges one to do what he perceives to be right and refrain from what he feels to be wrong. It has been defined as the "natural sense of what is right and wrong" (Thayer 1958, 661). This moral sense cannot minutely define right and wrong, but it can initiate some broad and strong inclinations.
This certainly is evidenced by the fact that Adam and Eve felt guilt after having eaten the forbidden fruit, even before confronted by God ( Genesis 3:7-10). "Condemned by their own consciences, they were ashamed and afraid to meet their benefactor and friend-an inevitable consequence of sin" (Campbell 1958, 32).
"There is no witness so terrible-no accuser so powerful as conscience which dwells within us" (Sophocles). "Man's conscience is the oracle of God" (Lord Byron).
See Part 3.
That is a great question!!
Here's a portion of an article from Wayne Jackson.
Part 1 of ?
Gentile Accountability
That the ancient Gentile world was religiously and morally culpable before the Creator is most obvious from the testimony of both Old and New Testaments. In literature of the Old Testament, the idolatry of the pagans is condemned repeatedly, and judgments from God were visited upon these peoples.
(1) Gentile idolatry is condemned as sin by the prophets of God (see Exodus 20:3-5; 32:35; Numbers 25:1-9; Deuteronomy 5:7-9; 6:4, etc.). The captivity of the southern kingdom of Judah was attributed directly to the worship of the false gods of the Gentiles ( 2 Kings 22:17). For an extensive array of information on this theme, see Helmbold 2003, 697-708.
(2) Gentile immorality was exposed and rebuked by the Old Testament writers. For example, in Amos 1:3 - 2:3, the prophet denounced Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, and Edom for their brutality toward their neighbors. The Ammonites "ripped open pregnant women" in their vicious conquests, etc. See also the extensive material presentation of judgments against the heathen nations contemporary with the prophet Jeremiah (chapters 46-51).
(3) In his epistle to the Christians in Rome, Paul describes the religious-moral conditions of the Roman world.
Romans 1:24-27.
From these facts, therefore, one may conclude: (1) Sin is a transgression of divine law ( 1 John 3:4); conversely, where there is no law, there is no sin ( Romans 4:15). (2) But the Gentiles were indicted as sinners. (3) Consequently, they were amenable to a law, and they had violated that law. That their actions were designated as sin likewise implies that they were under divine law.
See part 2.
Q. Before Jesus came to earth and died for us on Calvary, the Jewish people lived under the law and did sacrifices and offerings and thus was looking to the Cross: what did the Gentiles do. If i remember correctly, Paul brought the message of Salvation to the Gentiles, but before this how were Gentiles Saved
Jews who have recognized Jesus as the true Messiah, often refer to themselves as Messianic Jews: acknowledging that their longed for Messiah has indeed come & first brought salvation & new birth within the sinner (both Jew & Gentile), & then will one day come in Glory to bring salvation from their enemies & a new government raised & governed in righteousness.
Romans 3:23, 3:10, 5:12, 6:23, 5:8,
10:9-10, 10:13, 10:17
These were the scriptures I memorized as a rookie street preacher. :)
Chapter 1: it shows us how God has shown us through His Creation, that all we see and know didn't happen all by itself.
Just knowing the complexity of the human body should convince us.
There's a link on the entrance page: Become A Christian, that has book of zRomans scriptures.
Let me know what you think. Blessings.
Thank you.
I appreciate your exactness. I have understood it to mean what you've stated. With emphasis on "few''. With a cross reference to Matthew 22:14. Matthew 20:16, Numbers 26:54, Luke 13:23-24, Matthew 7:14,22,23,
Romans 5:19 with "many" referred to in like manner: because scripture says 'all' Romans 3:23,
Romans 2:12,
Perhaps the word "many" is used to help us understand the magnitude of people and striking contrast to the emphasis on the word "few" as opposed to a translation of "all" would it seem impossible or less significant per the reader?
Hopefully this is helpful.
Mathew 3:10-11.
I would like to add one or two more things that I believe is to be very important. Whether by water baptism or baptism by the Holyspirit, is it evident in your life that spiritual baptism has taken place.
You will run into 2 major groups engage on this topic. One group is those who believe you are saved by confessing Jesus and keeping the commandments. Some of this group believe you can lose your salvation. This group is bond to a work base religion.
The other group believes "for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Even the faith you are being saved through is not your faith! it is a gift of God!
You have nothing to offer God in terms of salvation! I hold this view.
True baptism when you "GENUINELY" accept Christ as your savior there is production in your life that begins. You can't produce it or keep it from producing as you feed on the word.
I will share a few by verses below and hopefully others can expand on them or add to.
Notice Paul' he didn't have much to say about water baptism, but he had a lot to say about baptism by the Holyspirit.
Romans 6:4.
Romans 6:6-8.
Romans 6:11.
It does well to study all of Romans 6 to expand a little on "the production' of spiritual baptism.
JOHNS BAPTISM.
you can see a picture of this transition for the Jews drawn out for you by Paul in Romans 7:1-2. Read all.
Now read Mathew 3:10-11.
Israel was a natural branch that didn't bear fruit. Jeremiah 2:21. "Nor could it"
Also read Mathew 21:42-44. and John 15:1-7.
Now let's get back to our 2 groups.
You have the 1st group I mentioned that put themselves in bondage as did Israel and despising the truth.
believing in baptism outwardly but unbaptized inwardly.
EXAMPLE: Romans 2:25-29.
The 2nd group
Philippians 3:3.
Galatians 3:13.
John 8:36.
The outcome.
1John 2:3.
1 John 4:21.
This Love cannot be produced by self.
God bless.