Romans
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That is a very good question regarding the Saturday/Sabbath, and Jesus showed us numerous times that we can perform "good work" helping, saving a persons life, healing, feeding the hungry, etc.
Luke 6:9
"Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?"
Luke 6:10
"And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other."
So Jesus showed us we can do good things on the sabbath.
I believe as a Christian I should not work or try to gain for "myself" on Saturday/Sabbath. I should also not participate in any worldly activities ie: sporting events, going to movies, etc.
God is asking us to give him 1 day out of 7 to rest and give thanks. Is that to much for him to ask? I don't think so, especially if is so important to God that he says "REMEMBER TO KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH". Not something I want to handle lightly....nor God forbid - Forget!
There are millions of christians today that are comfortable forgetting the 4th Commandment - I thank God that I am not one of them.
God Bless
Good Question, I believe Paul's Message to the Jews that may have possibly witnessed the crucifixion would not change if he spoke to those who haven't seen, as well as us.
Which leaves each view with the same problem, "Impossible to restore " When l consider verses 7, 8, and 9
I believe he's talking about what accompany salvation. "Maturity and fruitfulness by the Spirit, It's Impossible to achieve that under the Leviticus priesthood. That would be in the context with ch 4 and 5 and the following chapter, ch 7. Let's do a study on verses 6 and 7, I believe they speak of Growth.
Thiese are very tough verses to. e dogmatic, But can for sure rule out loosing salvation.
God bless.
Thank you for your thoughts.
As we know there's several views of Hebrews 6. Here's 4 commonly used.
1) Paul is talking to unconverted Jews that has been enlightened but turned back to Judaism.
2) Paul is talking Jewish believers to urge them towards Maturity, who's mengaling in Judaism, as did the Galatians.
3) Paul is talking to a mix of the 2 just mentioned 1 and 2.
4) He's talking about Jews loosing salvation.
Consider this verse you mentioned-
Hebrews 6:4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
"IF" This verse means salvation, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW YOU AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. "" MEANING YOU HAVE ONE CHANCE IN A LIFETIME TO
GET IT RIIGHT!! ARE YOU ARE FOREVER LOST!! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! To renew the broken commitment, MEANING ONCE YOU COMMIT ONE SIN YOU ARE LOST.
Which Dont fit in the light of these scriptures?
Jude 1:24-25. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
John 10:28-29. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Romans 8:38-39. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If I may just ask you one question concerning keeping the "Sabbath day" holy. In several places it states:
Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
The question I ask is what would you say to someone who worked on the Sabbath day to help someone else or do something good/righteous?
Thank you for your time. I would just like to know what your perspective is in not doing any work and resting as the OT clearly states for that commandment.
God Bless.
The question, though, begs to be answered. Why did the Apostles never write to the Church to obey the Sabbath. I don't find the 10 commandments in the letters from Romans to Revelation. They speak only about the commandments - which refers to the commandments of the New Testament. Sabbath keepers always turn to the Old Testament books such as Exodus to say that we must keep the Sabbath. Why don't they quote from the instruction letters sent to the Church - Romans to Revelation?
I would answer, because the Apostles never instructed the Church to do so. In fact, Paul says the complete opposite.
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH DAYS:"
I, personally, will follow Paul's advice - and let no man judge me.
I respect your thoughts, though, and I will agree to disagree and move on.
Good day, Dan.
1) In short, yes, Peter is warning about false prophets who left the true faith and, in short, apostatized. But, the warning that Peter is giving, is to faithful believers, to not follow them and become rejected as they were. Notice.
2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall THEY (apostates) with feigned words make merchandise of YOU (true faithful believers): whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
The apostates want to make the faithful Christians into apostates too. Thus, the warning. Why? Because there is a real serious danger.
2) They were not just enlightened, they were true believers.
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,"
If you are made partakers of the Hold Spirit, you have received God's Holy Spirit and are a Christian. You have to safeguard that or God will take away his Holy Spirit.
Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and TAKE NOT YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME."
I concur with you, though, in that we can agree to disagree and move on.
Good day.
Part 1
You've posted a lot of scripture, unfortunately many of the same scripture.
some refers to those were enlightened but not saved, "as many of us today but never coming to Christ for salvation " And some saved but haven't matured as you see here.
" Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
And we see both groups in the verses you stated.
But Like a said and still say it's not talking about SALVATION in Romans 6.
Another verse you keep posting is 2 Peter 2:20 to make a point of losing salvation from a group that never had it. if you want to consider that verse let's start from verse 1.
Read on please. Thanks
Pg. 2
2 Peter 2:1-19. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Pg 3.
2 Peter 2:14-20 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
THESE PEOPLE PETER IS SPEAKING OF HAS HEARD THE GOSPEL BUT IS NOT SAVED.
Let's move on to something else.
God bless.
Isaiah 60:1 (KJV)
You answered my question by saying: The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. Really? They stated they obeyed Gods commandments, many times.
You also state: I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. I'm sorry but this really makes no sense.
There is no scripture showing that God removed the 4th commandment. Jesus didn't, and the Apostles couldn't, that is why there is no scripture that confirms this. Jesus was confronted many times regarding the Sabbath, and if he had wanted to cancel the sabbath he had many opportunities to do so.
So in your mind 9 of the 10 commandments are ok to follow because the apostles didn't, even though you have absolutely NO scripture stating they DID NOT follow the 4th commandment.
The 10 Commandments stand until the end of time!
Matthew 5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
I will agree to disagree with you at this point. In summary, I do believe this disagreement relates to how you and I interpret the scriptures.
God Bless Brother
Behold he cometh with clouds ;
And every eye will see him ...
Hardly secret or silent ?
Thank you for your response.
I commend you for citing verses that clearly show that Paul is talking to actual believers. They were "Holy Brethren". They had believed in Jesus Christ and were very surely baptized in water. That would make them part of the Church.
However, very serious warnings are given to not lose faith and to not stop trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Please take specific note that the Apostle Paul does not say "you" but "we". In other words, he includes "himself" in those warnings.
Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore WE ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which WE have heard, lest at any time WE should let them slip."
Hebrews 2:3 "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"
Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in DEPARTING from the living God."
Hebrews 3:14 "For WE (includes Paul) are made partakers of Christ, if WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END;"
Hebrews 12:15-17 "Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP trouble you, and thereby many be DEFILED; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat SOLD his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, HE WAS REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall FALL AWAY (apostatize), to renew them again unto REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
Overcome means definitely. No return.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my 2 questions.
1) You mention that the commandment at Leviticus 12:3 was a "suggestion". When the Law was give to Israel, they made a covenant between themselves and God. Please read Exodus 34:3-8. Notice specifically
Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people ALL THE WORDS of the LORD, and ALL THE JUDGMENTS: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, ALL THE WORDS which the LORD hath said will we do."
That does not sound like a "suggestion" but a command - an order. Jewish people have thus very meticulously made certain to circumcise their children. Moses was almost killed by the LORD because he had not circumcised his son. Please read Exodus 4:24-26. That seems to me that the LORD takes circumcision very, very seriously. In fact, in the first century, even believing Jews believed that a believer in the Messiah must be circumcised to be saved.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED."
2) You mention that the first century Church followed the 10 commandments.
I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. They are re-iterated in the New Testament or Covenant set up by Jesus through his blood mentioned at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20. However, nowhere do the Apostles every tell the Church, in clear words, "remember to keep the sabbath". Could you provide me 1 verse where an apostle clearly says to keep the sabbath - that actual word "sabbath" being used? In fact, Paul says the opposite at Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:10.
3) Now to answer your question. The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. They said that they obeyed the commandments. Those would be the commandments of the New Testament given by Jesus Christ through his Apostles via the letters of Romans to Revelation.
I welcome your thoughts again.
Good day to you, Dan.
:)
Here's What being in the presence of believers want do.
Change the inner Man.
Galatians 5:22-24 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
This fruit is interior, And should be the engine that drives a Christian to serving and righteous living. This is against our nature, ( THE NATURAL MAN. )
Fruit is virtue from being born again, connected to the TRUE VINE "EVERLASTING Life".
A non born again professor / false Christian only can control the exterior, and
Tries to clothe himself with righteousness.
Try to DO the right thing, SAY the right thing, But Love for the brothern, humility, Longsuffering, ect... is absent. Void of being regenerated by the spirit. Proud of his exterior work, Nothing on the inside.
That's what the Law couldn't do!
Jesus came to CHANGE the HEART, And the spirit guides us with passion, not by command.
God bless.
:)
May CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW...
Very few will disagree that God creates every man; since, he created the reproductive process of man; therefore, he FOREKNOWS everyone.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he did ALSO PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the IMAGE of his SON, that he might be the FIRSTBORN among many BRETHERN.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also CALLED (presently God is ONLY CALLING those that will be PRIEST in HIS KINGDOM) (the servants in the kingdom will be called at the second resurrection), and whom he CALLED, them HE JUSTIFIED: and whom he JUSTIFIED, them he also GLORIFIED.
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou shall also take thereof a FEW in number ....
Ezekiel 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the FIRE (IN CHRIST; Hebrews 12:29), and burn (purify; Malachi 3:2-3) them in the FIRE (IN Christ); for thereof (the Priest) shall a FIRE (the saints judging the world; Revelation 21:8) come forth to the house of Israel.
NO ONE is going to alter GOD's PLAN; whatever God PREDESTINED that you are going to do in his kingdom, YOU WILL DO.
All is the works of God; he uses man to do the labour.
1 Peter 1:2
Ephesians 1:5
Romans 9:13
John 5:70
Ephesians 1:4
I Think we should start a thread on Salvation, and track God's plan of salvation all the way back to Genesis
and see how we received it, Then we would be able to minister to one another in a more virtuous debate. I think readers benefit more spiritually understanding salvation and obedience, sanctification, fruitfulness, Rather than worrying about losing something he might not even have!!
Here's the issue with what you stated.
"becomes a hater of God - and remains firmly in that state for the rest of his life - will no longer be able to be saved. There is no more forgiveness for them."
That's not in the verses we're discussing.
If it was I would say that person was never saved, He was Enlightened, "The Word was brought to him but he never truly was converted. I believe as Jesse believes Enlightening doesn't mean the receiver accepted it.
However I believe These were believers because of previous verses.
Hebrews 3:1. Wherefore, ( HOLY BRETHREN,)
partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
And also they were on need of Milk instead of meat. ( Milk is for babies in Christ. not for sinners. Sinners need light.
I think verses 7,8 and 9 speaks of Maturity and fruit.
I don't believe the Issue is Salvation, In Hebrews 6. and NO you can't loose your Salvation.
God bless.
A Biblical study on the 2 resurrections provides a generous amount of insights, rather than point blank omissions.
The first resurrection is only of the house of Israel; no where is Judah mentioned. It's the lost sheep whom Jesus first set out after, the house of Israel buries the bones of Gog for seven months. ( Ezekiel 39:12) The tribes of Levi, Benjamen, and Judah, 12,000 each have converted to the Lord Jesus Christ. They are the remnant of Israel.
Some like to imagine being part of the first resurrection, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. The only ones ever mentioned as "first fruits" are the one hundred forty four thousand, elect.
The second resurrection: ( Ezekiel 37:1-14) solidifies the order and nature of the resurrections. Here we see dry bones from the house of Israel and Judah stand up together as the whole house of Israel. The house of Judah was never part of the first resurrection, as those from the house of Israel were. This represent the second resurrection allegory of Israel.
The second resurrection begs the need for a new earth and new heavens for billions of people entering...souls.
You can disagree with anything I've said. If you have better insight, please share.
Your 1st question:
1. Did God make a mistake when he created a request (not a commandment) to circumcise?
No, God did not make a mistake. It was a request, per the scripture below:
Leviticus 12:1
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," 2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying," and continued on....3And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
God said to Moses SPEAK to the children of Israel! This circumcision was a REQUEST at that time. It was not a commandment in the same sense as a commandment in God's 10 Commandments. VERY IMPORTANT distinction!
Your second question:
You ask why did the church of the 1st century change God's request of circumcision. Because it wasn't one of God's 10 commandments.
The apostles believed and followed God's 10 commandments, and they did not change any of God's 10 Commandments!
Here is apostle John stating that fact:
1 John 2:3
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
Now Brother Michael, please answer one question for me: Do you believe that the apostles were wrong in following and keeping God's 10 Commandments?
I await your answer Brother.
God Bless
Thank you for your thoughts.
Yes, that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is indeed saying. A person who becomes a true Christian and remains one for years but who later decides, of his own free will, to fall away and no longer serve God and becomes a hater of God - and remains firmly in that state for the rest of his life - will no longer be able to be saved. There is no more forgiveness for them.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
There are 2 types of sins. The sins we make because of our imperfection - which can be forgiven - and the willful, rebellious sin that we chose to do because we no longer love God but have decided our our own free will to be against God. Notice this very carefully at
1 John 5:16-17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is NOT unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin NOT unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
John speaks of 2 sins. One is unto death and the other is not. Weaknesses due to our imperfect flesh, is not a sin unto death. But, wickedness not due to our imperfect flesh but due to a heart that has become evil by choice, is a sin unto death - the second death.
Yes, "all unrighteousness is sin" says John. Even if I just lust momentarily at a woman, I have committed a sin. However, sin can be forgiven - unless it is willful. Willful and persistent sin with no repentance is unto death and there remains to more sacrifice for that kind of sin.
I welcome your further thoughts.
Good day.
I think you've answered the question yourself. A Christian must continue to believe in order to be saved. We agree. However, that is our choice. We can continue to believe and trust or we could chose to stop obeying God. It is our choice.
Now, you say if he stops believing God, then he never really was a true Christian. Regardless, what is for sure is that a person has to continue believing and that we do have a choice in that.
Therefore, we have to fight the human sin in us and the appeal of the world that could lead us away from Christ. Example, we could be tempted to start practicing fornication. That is our choice. We either fight the flesh or we give in and fornicate. That is why Paul warned the Hebrew Christians to not give in and fornicate.
Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Maybe Paul was not fully saved. What if he did leave Christ and and became a willful sinner and fornicator? That question we will never know. All we can know for sure is that WE must chose to believe and obey God and continue doing so in order to inherit the blessing of eternal life.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 "I" have fought a good fight, "I" have finished my course, "I" have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Notice, Paul say "I" have fought a good fight. "I" have finished my course. "I" have kept the faith. It required a conscientious decision on Paul's part and a personal struggle to do so. For that reason, he had a crown of righteousness laid up for him.
A "Christian" who practices willful, serious sin will not be saved.
Kindly.