Having gone to some lengths in discussing subjects such as Predestination and things related to this subject I thought I would
present some logic to consider this concept. A primary idea that I have discussed elsewhere is related to Galatians 2:20. To live in new life necessitates a DEATH blow to our old self. If not then we are still trying to do things in our own strength; and since we cannot save ourselves (see Titus 3:5) there is no way to please God in the flesh. Clearly this doesn't spell the end of our struggles on earth; as Paul states in Romans 7:23. Interestingly; he mentions the word "law" in regard to both the pull of the flesh that remains AND that of the Spirit of God; we see similar verses describing war between the desires of the flesh and that of the Spirit in Galatians 5:17.
Serving the Lord; therefore must be out of the love and resulting obedience in God. It has to surpass our human desires; no matter how noble they may seem. It counters our own loves and hates and brings us into conformity with Christ through the Spirit so that we can especially LOVE our ENEMIES which is not possible in the same way with our flesh. We could conceivably
tolerate a wicked man or be in submission out of fear but not seek his deliverance and serve selflessly expecting nothing in return in our own strength. As I have stated in other posts as well we also warn the wicked of their calamity; and that includes all those who seemingly are kind and compassionate; FRIENDS and enemies as well. As showing love toward mean people is impossible; we also have to warn those who seem like "good people" as well; despite our flesh trying to make our relationship with them (wife; husband; mother; father or best friend) seem to somehow absolve them from the fate of all of the rest of mankind.
So in this posting I am stating that our works (i.e. good fruits) as well as thoughts and what we say display whether He is truly in us.
That is true Rainwalker, in reference to Genesis 26:5. But the question: what were the "commandments, statutes and laws" that were given to Abraham to obey? We aren't given the specifics apart from God's clear directions to him. And even if they were the same as those given to Moses (and that's an IF), how would those laws given to Abraham & later to Israel, come to bear upon those now in Christ Jesus & been given God's Spirit to reside in them?
As even the apostle stated in Romans 7:10, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death"; could there be any Law given, whether to Abraham, Moses, & Israel, as pure & righteous as those Laws were, have given to any of them, life (i.e. the promise of eternal life)? Each one had to stand by their faith before God, the Law giving them absolutely no justification before God ( Romans 3:20).
Likewise, the Law can have no bearing on those now In Christ, for we stand by faith alone in Christ's finished Work for us & for all who would come to Him & believe on Him. Do we then remain lawless? Rather, the Law of Faith ( Romans 3:27) now stands, as it did before to those under the Old Covenant, but now this Law (of Faith) is energized in us by the Holy Spirit giving us power to live triumphantly & acceptably before God - that which the Old Law could never do & was never designed to do. Abraham wasn't accepted simply on how well he kept whatever Laws were given him, but that it was his faith that took him beyond the letter, where he obeyed God, claimed God's Promises, & looked beyond what the physical eye & mind could apprehend ( Hebrews 11:8-10).
So Romans 7:15-17 comes to the fore, where Paul shares his hatred for sin, yet the sin nature surfaces causing him to trip up & sin. I know that I can never be like Jesus, i.e. without a sin nature, but who am I to believe that I can be better than that great apostle who lived such a fully Christ-centered life, even to the point of suffering & martyrdom.
I intended to respond to the Scriptures you gave, but seeing that you've failed to respond to my earlier brief exegete on Romans 6 (which you shared), I believed that you were more interested in airing your beliefs (with supporting Scriptures) rather than towards scriptural examination. It's one thing to expect comment on the Scriptures one provides, but when there's no rebuttal or agreement provided in return, then one is left curious & amazed to the person's intention in all this. So, I'll leave it here Momsage & may the Lord lead you into His Truth & the reality of what sin really is - not simply faults or failings in this life. GBU
Hello Momsage. Not sure where you're coming from or going with this - but you are entitled to form your impression about me, especially as you seem to have gleaned from my comments, that I am giving licence to all on this forum to continue committing sin! If that's what you've understood, then I do feel sad that our extended discussion has brought on such a determination. Maybe you should re-read my other comments on this very important matter & especially, my other reference to the Apostle Paul who declared that he not only faced the ongoing battle with sin but also lived at times, in defeat.
You had earlier quoted from Romans chapter 6, and to this I gave some detail on specific verses. Then I wrote about Paul & his struggle (in Romans chapter 7). Did you read this chapter? I received no comments from you as to how you can believe that Paul was sinless (as you claim you are sinless), when he finally cried out in Romans 7:24,25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". This is not Paul talking only about his life as a Jew & a teacher of the Law (without Christ), but of his life now as he struggles with desiring total obedience to God & the Law of Sin which is IN HIS MEMBERS (v23). Why should he write, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Was he concerned that his physical body was deteriorating & in the throes of death, or was he deeply concerned about the sin nature & sin that surfaced in his life? Yet, he found that his deliverance from this dilemma of the old nature vs the new nature was only found in Christ Jesus. His heart & mind was only God-ward - but his body inclined to sin because of the sin nature within. This paragraph continues on Page 2.
RED APPLE TREATY 4 ME ONLY on Romans 7 - 10 months ago
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6 KJV
I'm free from sin and when I sow , I will reap free from sin.
When you say that one is saying "we don't have to keep the 10 commandments" when they say the law was given to the nation Israel" I believe that is where you err.
I believe most agree with you that the 10 commandments and the law is relevant for us today.
However, they weren't given to make one righteous.
They were called 'The ministration of death", written and engraven in stones, or "Ministration of condemnation". NOT "The ministration of the spirit or Ministration of righteousness" As mentioned, and the two compared in 2 Corinthians 3:6-11
Is there a difference between the law and the 10 commandments?
"They both are a part of the Ministration of condemnation".
The law was written to deal with the 10 commandments by way of pattern or a foreshadowing. Those temporary articles could not make us righteous by that which slew us.
Look how Paul uses them both in Romans 7:7-14 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ( Exodus 20:17)
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without "THE LAW" once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So, the question should be "Do the law and commandments "APPLY" to us today. The answer is Yes! We all were under sin.
You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)
Galatians 3:8-10
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.
Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Hebrews 4:
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.
Thanks for your reply Momsage. I couldn't detect the Church ever coming together to worship the LORD on the Sabbath from the references you gave. So it seems that neither we nor yourself can scripturally prove that the Church met on either the Sabbath or the Sunday (what is otherwise called the Lord's Day: Revelation 1:10). Therefore, we cannot appeal to the Word to resolve the matter, but to what was understood & practised in the years that followed the closing of the Scriptures. I won't go into that as both Giannis & GiGi have given sufficient evidence from the writings of those post-apostolic Church saints that the Church met together on the Lord's Day (Sunday), well before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence. And if we, as the Church, choose to worship on a Sunday, do so because of what we learn from early Church practise and not from some papal or council edict.
So, the question remains: if this be the case, why did the Church reject the Sabbath (also being the day set aside by the Jews to attend the synagogue), to meet together to break bread & worship the Lord on the first day of the week? Could it be that the Church (founded on apostolic teaching) no longer identified with the Law given by God to Israel, from which no salvation or release from sin's grip could be found, but rather attended to the Law given by the Spirit of God, which now gave both understanding & power to serve God acceptably? Maybe, what the Apostle Paul believed & preached, was also adhered to by the Church: in Romans 7:4-6 Paul stated, 'we are dead to the Law by the Body of Christ - now being delivered from the Law in which we remained dead, but now serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter'. And this was written to remind Jewish believers that they (not Gentiles) were once under the (whole) Law, but now freed from its intended purpose & punishment as its goal, to serve God by the Spirit covered by Christ's Blood, which the Law could never do.
The question may arise that if we are indeed crucified with Christ and dead to sin then why we need to be concerned about such matters post salvation. Romans 7:17 seems to bolster that point when Paul states that it is not him but sin living within that causes problems. This still would show that sin lives or exists but that Christ through the Holy Spirit indwells us once we come to faith ( John 14:23). This would show that during the entire sanctification process on earth we go through this sad state of affairs.
It is implicit in meaning that Christ died for all sins; past present and future. That would be the case for us living today; of course as we are already nearly 2000 years past the atonement so that in that sense all the sins were future for us; and indeed all the generations before us until the time of Christ.
When it comes to sin; we need to emphasize how doctrinal errors lead to all sorts of gross behaviors following apostasy. Indeed the doctrine of demons now or in the past causes the worst evils as we see from occultic rituals still followed today that originated from pagan religions millennia past inspired by the enemy of our souls. Unrepentant sin often is associated with lifestyles of sin or leads to it inevitably in time. As a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit we will be grieved as the Spirit within is affected by evil that we allow in ( Eph. 4:30). True believers not only don't mind testing themselves to see if they are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6) but like to remind themselves of such passages even if they are living right to keep them on course. This of course involves godly sorrow not worldly ( 2 Cor. 7:10).
Human logic needs to be subjugated to Godly wisdom for a believer. Satan always has plans that he likes to bring to our minds which he has concocted so that we think our plans can sort of help God along. All things must be in submission and obedience to the cross.
What does that mean and can anyone born of Adam do it?
If it means to judge against it or to sentence it. What is required to achieve this? Christ!
THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH AND LIVED A PERFECT LIFE APART FROM SIN DOESN'T DIRECTLY MEAN "CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH"
It's the fact that he in doing so, he destroyed the power and penalty of sin is where and how he condemned sin.
(For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.) Romans 8:2,
Adam was a living soul.
There are those born of Adam. "At one time we all were"
Jesus "A quickening spirit" ( God manifested in the flesh,) Born from above! "God/Christ spirit".
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.
This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.
Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.
Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!
An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ done what the law could not do. Condemn sin in the weak flesh.
This is the sin in our members that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
There are terms in the Bible such as twice dead and Second death. " Jude 1:12, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8.
Paul says in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Which death did he die? The 1st or the 2nd?
An unbeliever is ALREADY dead! Yet he is still continuous.
( 1 Timothy 5:6.) This is a very common NT idiom. The word (noun) for "dead" is "nekros" and is used of physical death (obviously) but also spiritual death to describe an unsaved person who is physically alive but spiritually dead. Here are some examples:
Matt 8:22 - But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.
Eternal Salvation is life! It is separation from this Body/Tabernacle of death.
In Romans 6:3 we see the sacrificial Lamb at work.
In Romans 6:4-5 we see the NEW BIRTH and the first fruit of the Resurrection. This is the 1st Resurrection.
You are either dead right now or you have life right now!
Those who have life has already died once and has been born again, never to die again.
"Eternal life speaks of "spiritual life and death".
That's the only death a believer has. "He's already been born again"
Those who are dead is already spiritual dead and their bodies will soon die, and they will remain spiritual dead throughout eternity.
The bible doesn't say anything about being unconscious after the body dies. It has lots of scripture describing conscious.
If the grave is Hell, the Bible never says anything about the saved going there.
You do realize the ten commandments were for a people coming out if bondage out of Egyt. Today, our bondage is sin. Our Pharoah is the devil who wanti to keep you dead in sin as all sin is of the devil 1st John 3,:8. No such verse as you sin because you are of God or Jesus. We are free from the bondsge of sin of which Moses' laws could not do so Romans 7.
Romans 7:6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galations 4:19] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
[20] I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Nick34 I thought it would be necessary to note something concerning your statement "not being able to do the things the Bible says to do.
What ever that may be, just understand that you are not alone.
This wretchedness you have within you when you feel you are not doing as you should is the Holyspirit.
The Holyspirit brings conviction upon a believer and that is a good thing!
Only God children wants to please him. He prunes us.
Even though we may never be perfect in our service and walk in this lifetime but we try everyday.
We will have this conviction all our lives because we want to please him and the Spirit causes us to love the things he loves. Because we have his spirit in us.
Listen to Paul in Philippians 3:12-14
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
And now listen to him here in Romans 7:24-25. he says
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We don't do this for salvation, we do it because of his lordship over our lives. It's his spirit that aligns us up with his will.
We should thank him for such conviction because it is he that works in us as we're clothed in his righteousness.
Salvation there is a death and an ressurection for the TRUE believers.
This is not done by an alter call or an profession but by the Spirit of God that searches the heart.
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Life begins here as a babe in Christ,
God bless you for this all important portion of scripture.
The Lord told Israel in Ezekiel 36:27 he will put his spirit within them, and cause them to walk in his statutes, and they shall keep his judgments, and do them.
This is also what he does for us Gentiles. If we all agree Israel is saved "or is to be saved" the same way we are then the Holyspirit that directs their walk is the same that directs ours.
If we agree we all sin and no one can present themselves perfect but yet you can forfeit your salvation, What percentage of your sins you have to repent from to be saved?
What percentage of sins you have to commit before you lose your salvation?
Ephesians 2:4-6 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
( He made us alive WITH CHRIST)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How long does that mercy last?
Does our imperfect nature forfeit God's mercy?
God's Commandments, statutes, and judgments are perfect!
The Holyspirit drives us to perform them perfectly.
However we stumble at the perfection in the Law and sin against it even in our imperfect minds.
Even the restraint from sin let's us know we are sinners in need of God's mercy.
Paul says, in Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
You can't do anything to gain salvation and you can't do anything to hold it.
If it's not the Holyspirit that is regenerating you then you are not saved even if you supposedly stopped sinning.
Salvation is a new life, one from above with a repentant heart.
Your walk testifies of this rebirth.
Salvation comes before Sanctification and Sanctification Is a continuing work of the Holyspirit.
Have you ever presented the Gospel to a atheist or perhaps a Muslim?
The first thing they refer you to is the 10 commandments and their argument sounds just like those who present the keeping of the law as a means of salvation.
So, they should have a clear understanding of what the law was for and what it did "by the scriptures" through a study in Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians.
Romans 7:8-14.
Galatians 2:16-21.
Galatians 3:1-29.
2 Corinthians 3:5-11. and then perhaps scriptures like Philippians 3:2-14.
These verses convict the sinner and put all under sin. That's what the law was for!
Our outward ceremonies and obedience at our best couldn't make us perfect! There is no new birth!
God requires perfection that is why he required a perfect replacement, Lamb. Christ Jesus.
SANCTIFICATION FOLLWS THIS.
Consider Israel.
God displayed the fallen nature of man and their inability to perform even while God was in their midst and carried them. This was and still is an example to us.
We are lost hopeless sheep gone astray apart from Jesus's blood shed on the cross.
Understand Matthew 21:42.
Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the pivotal piece of the foundation in which we are to build on.
When we are led by the Spirit we're building with precious stone. When we are led by the flesh, we build with wood hay and stubble. every man's work shall be tested by fire.
WHEN ISRAEL AS A NATION IS DRIVEN TO CALL ON THEIR MESSIAH THOSE WHO ACCEPT HIM AT THAT TIME WILL BE SAVED ALSO. AND GOD WILL BE SANCTIFIED IN THEM.
Thanks Daruled for your explanation. And of course, what you say is correct, seeing that Romans 7:12 clearly tells us, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Words of that Holy Law given to Israel from the Mouth of God.
You've stated that my use of the word 'abrogation' isn't correct, rather you "look for the maturation of the old thing" (i.e. the Law). In one sense, I do agree to what you've stated that the old, through the gift Holy Spirit, has 'matured' into a New Law now applicable to the Saint. However, the way I look at the Old Law, hence my writing of its abrogation (abolishment), is that the Law was bound to the Old Covenant (there could be no separation at all). If a Jew continued to follow the words & compulsions of the Law, he was still under the Old Covenant & under it he would be judged. But under the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, the Old Covenant has been abolished with its requirements for rigid obedience to the Law that was intrinsic to it, with its resulting judgements. The Law that only led to death had to be abolished so that the Law that gives life ( Romans 8:2) might be established. The two could never be fused together.
So why are we seeing this differently? I agree to the Words of the Law given to Israel are everlasting & those words can certainly be applied under the New Covenant. Yet, it's not just the Words themselves, but the nature of the Old Covenant that is in question. The Words might be similar & applicable, but since the New Covenant supersedes the Old, the Old can only give the believer in Christ a 'skeletal' view of what God now requires of His children. And this, the Old Law could never show Israel - but only after Jesus came & then under the New Covenant, the Spirit can reveal the full meaning, implications, & requirement of God for holy living, now accomplished in His Power alone. This the Old Law could never do, for it wasn't in its design.
Hi Daruled. And welcome to these Discussion pages & hope you will enjoy fellowship with us around God's Word.
Your question would require a very long answer, beyond the scope of these pages, & you may have noticed that this matter is being presently addressed & does come up often here (because it is so important & often so misunderstood). So just a quick answer to your "quick question": when we read that the believer is 'freed, or delivered, from the Law' ( Romans 7:6), we should understand that to mean that the Law given to Israel has no more rule & binding on the one who is now 'IN Christ'.
So, those of Israel & of the Gentiles who have been saved by Christ's Blood, have entered into a New Covenant relationship (in His Blood), that not only abrogates that old Law that only revealed sin & ended in death ( Romans 7:9-11), but brings forth a New Law within this New Covenant that we are now to hear & obey. Where the Old Law written on stones demanded total obedience by one's own power or else face death, the New Law of the Spirit ( Romans 8:2) is now embedded deep in the believer, & now is given the Holy Spirit energized power to obey, not just a set of 10 Commandments, but all the Law of God. And this New Law covers every aspect of the believer's life, which means that God's Commands are no longer limited to a number, but the Spirit brings every thought, word or deed into the believer's spiritual view & applies conviction & understanding applicable to the individual.
So yes, the believer IN Christ, can never be "lawless", for if he is & seeks to live his life separate from the workings of God's Spirit in him, he should then question whether real salvation is his actual experience. And I would venture further to state, that a child of God, led of His Spirit in him, would hardly be able to go through his waking moments each day without regular testings & examinations by the All-searching, All-ministering Holy Spirit residing in him. Blessings.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Philippians 3:7-11.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have
suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the
righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
The law was given to Israel, but it wasn't to make them Holy.
It was given to show the world that it was necessary for a new birth in Christ Jesus.
What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Romans 7:10-14.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For WHEN WE WERE in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to BRING FORTH FRUIT UNTO DEATH.
( The law shows us we have a fleshly nature that is fallen and incapable of bringing forth fruit unto God.)
Galatians 3:21-25.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Romans 7:6.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Thank you Jcubria, you have explained this very important teaching very well. My regular 'go to' verses are Romans 8:1-4, which in fact should fully convince us of the abrogation of the old Law given solely to Israel, which they not only couldn't fully meet its demands, but only showed them their sinfulness & led them to death ( Romans 7:7-11). That Law could never give Life. Life can only be found in Christ & obedience to His Spirit. The Old Law required rigid obedience or suffer, but the workings of Holy Spirit in the regenerated heart now gives life, liberty, & power to obey & serve, & these remain diametrically opposed to each other. Israel of old never received the Holy Spirit to enable them to correctly obey God, hence the need for the myriad of sacrifices to avert His Wrath upon them. But Jesus was the one and only Sacrifice whereby the sinner is released from the Law & its penalties, removed from God's Condemnation, & eternal damnation & death no longer his prospect, and enables him to obey the righteousness contained within God's Holy Demands.
As the Apostle Paul stated in Romans 7:6, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter", we see his affirmation of the futility of the Law when compared to the glory & permanence of life in obedience to the Holy Spirit. The Decalogue was simply a snapshot of some of God's Holy Requirements, & even in this short set of Commands, Israel failed miserably. But the Law given & empowered by the Spirit embraces all of God's Requirements, searching every area of a believer's heart & life, revealing sin & shortcomings, but enabling him to live unto God & not to the letter of the Law.
However, I'm not certain that the "majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life". From my experience, I've learned that many don't correctly understand this Truth.
Good afternoon all! I began thinking of this verse in my commute back to home today:
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
There's maybe a handful such as Bro Dan that believes the commandments was given as a requirement to earn salvation. "When you are done, God owes you"
Look at it this way.
Ok, IF the commandments was given as a requirement to earn your salvation.
Here's questions we should ask ourselves
Does the scripture say; "do the best you can, OR KEEP THEM?, It says keep them!
Can the commandments cause one to be born Again as mentioned in John 3:1-21? Nicodemus a teacher of the Law could not comprehend this.
How many times can you get away with sin before you are doomed for hell? ( I would suggest that you are born a sinner, being that you have to be born Again to become saved.)
If God required a perfect Lamb to take your place and atone for your sins
it's because God required you to be perfect in keeping yourself apart from sin. ( ALL YOUR LIFE)
The thought of sinning is a sin!
No one was able to do this and no one e ever will!
WE ARE TO DO OUR BEST BUT THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
WE NEEDED A SAVIOUR!
Please read Galatians 3:1-29 and
Romans 7:14-25.
Also let's take a look at what Dan shared.
1 John 3:24. "AND HE THAT KEEPETH HIS COMMANDMENTS DWELLETH IN HIM, AND HE IN HIM. AND HEREBY WE KNOW THAT HE ABIDETH IN US, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US."
( This is done after salvation!! Hereby we know he is in us, when we keep his commandment.)
This is what I said in my first reply!
( Everything else is obedience to him after you are saved, because he wills you and Lords over your life with a regenerated heart )
Let's go to the previous verse to see what this commandment is to get more context.
1 John 3:23AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, THAT WE SHOULD BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment.
The Ten Commandments are ten laws in the Bible that God gave to the nation of Israel after the exodus from Egypt.
They are essentially a summary of the 613 commandments contained in the Old Testament Law.
The first four commandments deal with our relationship with God. The last six commandments deal with our relationships with one another.
Many people mistakenly look at the Ten Commandments as a set of rules that, if followed, will guarantee entrance into heaven after death.
In contrast, the purpose of the Ten Commandments is to force people to realize that they cannot perfectly obey the Law ( Romans 7:7-11), and are therefore in need of God's mercy and grace.
No one can perfectly obey the Ten Commandments ( Ecclesiastes 7:20.
The Ten Commandments demonstrate that we have all sinned ( Romans 3:23) and are therefore in need of God's mercy and grace, available only through faith in Jesus Christ.
Tdianne, All of God Commandments are holy and any STRENGTH you have to keep them comes after you have been saved.
If you have ever ONCE broken any one of these commandments you've already fallen short of God's requirements and in need of God's mercy through trusting in the one whom God has sent to take away the sins of the whole world. Jesus!
So, should you be baptized? Yes, if you ARE saved but not to get saved.
You are saved by trusting and believing in Christ and his finish work on the cross.
Everything else is obedience to him after you are saved, because he wills you and Lords over your life with a regenerated heart of flesh which causes you to love God's statutes and yet convicts you of sin so we will fully appreciate the grace of Christ.
Oseas. You wrote, "The Law was established to put a moral discipline among the people which GOD had freed from Pharaoh's yoke." Of course, the Law did just that & of course, they had to obey it PERFECTLY. Wasn't this so? If it wasn't so, why did they suffer punishment or be killed - why not just keep a set of rules for them to follow the best way they could? The Law represented God's Standards for His people & failure to do so meant punishment - and fail they did. None could keep His Law perfectly, or else there would be no need for the sacrifices each year for the people & for personal sins. So the Law presented a "moral discipline", but also showed the condition of the human heart & the weakness of the flesh when they failed to obey God.
When Paul wrote about the Gentiles & their law & conscience ( Romans 2:14,15), he was referring to humanity's inner 'coding' in the conscience by which they know the right & proper things to do (in relation to each other & before an unseen God). These never received any of God's Laws, but their hearts will be judged because they couldn't even obey the dictates of their own consciences. So, both the Jew (with the Law), and the Gentile (without the Law, but having that inward law operating), stand condemned for their sins. The battle wasn't "between God & the Devil in having the dominion of the people", for Israel could never obey the Law anyway, as Satan would always have the victory. The battle was within Israel's heart - a heart of sin, subject to sin's demands upon them, & given over to Satan. See Paul's account of this in Romans 7:7-14 (the Law revealed his sin; he then died spiritually because of it - nothing to do with God's battles). Instead of fighting the Devil for souls, God provided His Own Sacrifice & His Own Spirit to redeem sinners.
You mentioned 'interpretation by the Spirit' & then "they died by the letterincluding the gods". Do you actually understand Psalm 82:6,7 & Isaiah 41:23, when you write these things?
The same straw man argument keeps coming back like groundhog day. I disagree with that belief because you suggest that obedience happens automatically and that is untrue. Obeying a choice. Even if we ignore all the evidence in front of us, like our personal knowledge of Christians who have fallen away and the mountain of evidence in scripture, the fact that Jesus kept reminding His followers to obey and keep His commandments over and over and over is all someone needs to know. Paul too wrote most of his books to churches (to Christians) warning them over and over not to fall from the faith and to obey. It's a choice. We have freewill and we still have temptations to sin as followers. Paul described himself wrestling with his sinful flesh, so obedience definitely did not come automatically or easily for him. Romans 7:15-20. Obedience isn't easy for any Christian.
I know Christians who claim its ok to for them to get drunk, do drugs, party hard, have premarital sex, have affairs, commit violence, commit homosexuality, because they were told by their pastor that they're "saved" and have nothing to worry about. This is a people pleasing Joel Osteen-type of doctrine that seeks to offer a watered down woke version of Christianity as long as it doesn't upset the culture's values. They love going to church and hearing that they don't sin and automatically obey. It validates their sin and feeling the comfort of feeling saved while being able to follow the world of satan, even though they don't admit this. This is a false doctrine from satan of course. Those who claim these Christians aren't real Christians need to then define in very specific terms what they think a real Christian is, and how they truly know they are one.
Thanks again Bro. Dan. I can understand what you're writing should be the ideal, where the believer continues to try and get on top of his sin(s), with the help of the Spirit, & not to give up in his endeavor. And you stated, "If we believe it (i.e. that no sin is to be committed) and strive to get there, we will eventually get to that perfection where we know Him perfectly and we abide in him perfectly."
Do you really think that you will reach that perfection in this life? Here, I'm not referring to someone just giving up on dealing with sin or even taking sin lightly in his life, but that he will reach a stage in this life of no sin being found in him? And what happens in the meantime, when what he believes is possible, actually is impossible - sin ever revealing itself without abating? And even the Apostle Paul realized this in Romans 7:23-25: though he was wholly inclined to being clean before the Lord, there was a law continually working in him that kept him in captivity to sin's presence. How wretched he felt that this dichotomy should exist in one so mightily touched by the Spirit & being used of God. Did he ever gain victory? He knew his deliverance was found only in Jesus, whether by receiving His continual forgiveness or when he would be ushered into His Presence. But while in the body, he resigned himself that his mind (heart) would only serve & please the Lord, whilst his flesh would be subject to sin, with its continual appearing. You may have a different take on this, but I see that as with Paul, so also with us, the struggle with sin will never cease.
As well, we might be strong in not giving into temptation - ever - but sin appears even when not being tempted (such as I gave in those examples a couple of days ago). That was the natural outworking of the flesh - giving inward responses in situations that were generally considered normal by the world, but were sin as far as the Lord is concerned & I needed correction. GBU
Romans 7:8-10. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
WE ALL AGREE THE LAW IS HOLY, SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE LAW THAT SLEW PAUL?
Romans 7:11-14
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. BUT SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WORKING DEATH IN ME BY THAT WHICH IS GOOD; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
PAUL IS SAYING THESE HOLY COMMANDMENTS EXPOSED HIM.
THAT HE MIGHT APPEAR SINFUL WORKING DEATH IN HIM BY THAT WHICH IS GOOD. ( The commandments.)
Also see 2 Corinthians 3:7-9
Vs 7:15-28.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: FOR TO WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; BUT HOW TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I FIND NOT.
WHAT DID PAUL FIND THAT IS GOOD? (THE COMMANDMENTS)
COULD HE PERFORM THEM? ( NO HE SAYS.)
19-23.) For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
Having gone to some lengths in discussing subjects such as Predestination and things related to this subject I thought I would
present some logic to consider this concept. A primary idea that I have discussed elsewhere is related to Galatians 2:20. To live in new life necessitates a DEATH blow to our old self. If not then we are still trying to do things in our own strength; and since we cannot save ourselves (see Titus 3:5) there is no way to please God in the flesh. Clearly this doesn't spell the end of our struggles on earth; as Paul states in Romans 7:23. Interestingly; he mentions the word "law" in regard to both the pull of the flesh that remains AND that of the Spirit of God; we see similar verses describing war between the desires of the flesh and that of the Spirit in Galatians 5:17.
Serving the Lord; therefore must be out of the love and resulting obedience in God. It has to surpass our human desires; no matter how noble they may seem. It counters our own loves and hates and brings us into conformity with Christ through the Spirit so that we can especially LOVE our ENEMIES which is not possible in the same way with our flesh. We could conceivably
tolerate a wicked man or be in submission out of fear but not seek his deliverance and serve selflessly expecting nothing in return in our own strength. As I have stated in other posts as well we also warn the wicked of their calamity; and that includes all those who seemingly are kind and compassionate; FRIENDS and enemies as well. As showing love toward mean people is impossible; we also have to warn those who seem like "good people" as well; despite our flesh trying to make our relationship with them (wife; husband; mother; father or best friend) seem to somehow absolve them from the fate of all of the rest of mankind.
So in this posting I am stating that our works (i.e. good fruits) as well as thoughts and what we say display whether He is truly in us.
As even the apostle stated in Romans 7:10, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death"; could there be any Law given, whether to Abraham, Moses, & Israel, as pure & righteous as those Laws were, have given to any of them, life (i.e. the promise of eternal life)? Each one had to stand by their faith before God, the Law giving them absolutely no justification before God ( Romans 3:20).
Likewise, the Law can have no bearing on those now In Christ, for we stand by faith alone in Christ's finished Work for us & for all who would come to Him & believe on Him. Do we then remain lawless? Rather, the Law of Faith ( Romans 3:27) now stands, as it did before to those under the Old Covenant, but now this Law (of Faith) is energized in us by the Holy Spirit giving us power to live triumphantly & acceptably before God - that which the Old Law could never do & was never designed to do. Abraham wasn't accepted simply on how well he kept whatever Laws were given him, but that it was his faith that took him beyond the letter, where he obeyed God, claimed God's Promises, & looked beyond what the physical eye & mind could apprehend ( Hebrews 11:8-10).
So Romans 7:15-17 comes to the fore, where Paul shares his hatred for sin, yet the sin nature surfaces causing him to trip up & sin. I know that I can never be like Jesus, i.e. without a sin nature, but who am I to believe that I can be better than that great apostle who lived such a fully Christ-centered life, even to the point of suffering & martyrdom.
I intended to respond to the Scriptures you gave, but seeing that you've failed to respond to my earlier brief exegete on Romans 6 (which you shared), I believed that you were more interested in airing your beliefs (with supporting Scriptures) rather than towards scriptural examination. It's one thing to expect comment on the Scriptures one provides, but when there's no rebuttal or agreement provided in return, then one is left curious & amazed to the person's intention in all this. So, I'll leave it here Momsage & may the Lord lead you into His Truth & the reality of what sin really is - not simply faults or failings in this life. GBU
Hello Momsage. Not sure where you're coming from or going with this - but you are entitled to form your impression about me, especially as you seem to have gleaned from my comments, that I am giving licence to all on this forum to continue committing sin! If that's what you've understood, then I do feel sad that our extended discussion has brought on such a determination. Maybe you should re-read my other comments on this very important matter & especially, my other reference to the Apostle Paul who declared that he not only faced the ongoing battle with sin but also lived at times, in defeat.
You had earlier quoted from Romans chapter 6, and to this I gave some detail on specific verses. Then I wrote about Paul & his struggle (in Romans chapter 7). Did you read this chapter? I received no comments from you as to how you can believe that Paul was sinless (as you claim you are sinless), when he finally cried out in Romans 7:24,25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". This is not Paul talking only about his life as a Jew & a teacher of the Law (without Christ), but of his life now as he struggles with desiring total obedience to God & the Law of Sin which is IN HIS MEMBERS (v23). Why should he write, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Was he concerned that his physical body was deteriorating & in the throes of death, or was he deeply concerned about the sin nature & sin that surfaced in his life? Yet, he found that his deliverance from this dilemma of the old nature vs the new nature was only found in Christ Jesus. His heart & mind was only God-ward - but his body inclined to sin because of the sin nature within. This paragraph continues on Page 2.
I'm free from sin and when I sow , I will reap free from sin.
When you say that one is saying "we don't have to keep the 10 commandments" when they say the law was given to the nation Israel" I believe that is where you err.
I believe most agree with you that the 10 commandments and the law is relevant for us today.
However, they weren't given to make one righteous.
They were called 'The ministration of death", written and engraven in stones, or "Ministration of condemnation". NOT "The ministration of the spirit or Ministration of righteousness" As mentioned, and the two compared in 2 Corinthians 3:6-11
Is there a difference between the law and the 10 commandments?
"They both are a part of the Ministration of condemnation".
The law was written to deal with the 10 commandments by way of pattern or a foreshadowing. Those temporary articles could not make us righteous by that which slew us.
Look how Paul uses them both in Romans 7:7-14 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ( Exodus 20:17)
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without "THE LAW" once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So, the question should be "Do the law and commandments "APPLY" to us today. The answer is Yes! We all were under sin.
Here is where we factor in Galatians 3:11-26.
God bless.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)
Galatians 3:8-10
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.
Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Hebrews 4:
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.
So, the question remains: if this be the case, why did the Church reject the Sabbath (also being the day set aside by the Jews to attend the synagogue), to meet together to break bread & worship the Lord on the first day of the week? Could it be that the Church (founded on apostolic teaching) no longer identified with the Law given by God to Israel, from which no salvation or release from sin's grip could be found, but rather attended to the Law given by the Spirit of God, which now gave both understanding & power to serve God acceptably? Maybe, what the Apostle Paul believed & preached, was also adhered to by the Church: in Romans 7:4-6 Paul stated, 'we are dead to the Law by the Body of Christ - now being delivered from the Law in which we remained dead, but now serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter'. And this was written to remind Jewish believers that they (not Gentiles) were once under the (whole) Law, but now freed from its intended purpose & punishment as its goal, to serve God by the Spirit covered by Christ's Blood, which the Law could never do.
The question may arise that if we are indeed crucified with Christ and dead to sin then why we need to be concerned about such matters post salvation. Romans 7:17 seems to bolster that point when Paul states that it is not him but sin living within that causes problems. This still would show that sin lives or exists but that Christ through the Holy Spirit indwells us once we come to faith ( John 14:23). This would show that during the entire sanctification process on earth we go through this sad state of affairs.
It is implicit in meaning that Christ died for all sins; past present and future. That would be the case for us living today; of course as we are already nearly 2000 years past the atonement so that in that sense all the sins were future for us; and indeed all the generations before us until the time of Christ.
When it comes to sin; we need to emphasize how doctrinal errors lead to all sorts of gross behaviors following apostasy. Indeed the doctrine of demons now or in the past causes the worst evils as we see from occultic rituals still followed today that originated from pagan religions millennia past inspired by the enemy of our souls. Unrepentant sin often is associated with lifestyles of sin or leads to it inevitably in time. As a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit we will be grieved as the Spirit within is affected by evil that we allow in ( Eph. 4:30). True believers not only don't mind testing themselves to see if they are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6) but like to remind themselves of such passages even if they are living right to keep them on course. This of course involves godly sorrow not worldly ( 2 Cor. 7:10).
Human logic needs to be subjugated to Godly wisdom for a believer. Satan always has plans that he likes to bring to our minds which he has concocted so that we think our plans can sort of help God along. All things must be in submission and obedience to the cross.
What does that mean and can anyone born of Adam do it?
If it means to judge against it or to sentence it. What is required to achieve this? Christ!
THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH AND LIVED A PERFECT LIFE APART FROM SIN DOESN'T DIRECTLY MEAN "CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH"
It's the fact that he in doing so, he destroyed the power and penalty of sin is where and how he condemned sin.
(For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.) Romans 8:2,
Adam was a living soul.
There are those born of Adam. "At one time we all were"
Jesus "A quickening spirit" ( God manifested in the flesh,) Born from above! "God/Christ spirit".
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.
This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.
Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.
Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!
An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ done what the law could not do. Condemn sin in the weak flesh.
This is the sin in our members that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23.
God bless.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
There are terms in the Bible such as twice dead and Second death. " Jude 1:12, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8.
Paul says in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Which death did he die? The 1st or the 2nd?
An unbeliever is ALREADY dead! Yet he is still continuous.
( 1 Timothy 5:6.) This is a very common NT idiom. The word (noun) for "dead" is "nekros" and is used of physical death (obviously) but also spiritual death to describe an unsaved person who is physically alive but spiritually dead. Here are some examples:
Matt 8:22 - But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.
Eternal Salvation is life! It is separation from this Body/Tabernacle of death.
In Romans 6:3 we see the sacrificial Lamb at work.
In Romans 6:4-5 we see the NEW BIRTH and the first fruit of the Resurrection. This is the 1st Resurrection.
You are either dead right now or you have life right now!
Those who have life has already died once and has been born again, never to die again.
"Eternal life speaks of "spiritual life and death".
That's the only death a believer has. "He's already been born again"
Those who are dead is already spiritual dead and their bodies will soon die, and they will remain spiritual dead throughout eternity.
The bible doesn't say anything about being unconscious after the body dies. It has lots of scripture describing conscious.
If the grave is Hell, the Bible never says anything about the saved going there.
See Pt 2
Romans 7:6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galations 4:19] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
[20] I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
I hope all is well.
Nick34 I thought it would be necessary to note something concerning your statement "not being able to do the things the Bible says to do.
What ever that may be, just understand that you are not alone.
This wretchedness you have within you when you feel you are not doing as you should is the Holyspirit.
The Holyspirit brings conviction upon a believer and that is a good thing!
Only God children wants to please him. He prunes us.
Even though we may never be perfect in our service and walk in this lifetime but we try everyday.
We will have this conviction all our lives because we want to please him and the Spirit causes us to love the things he loves. Because we have his spirit in us.
Listen to Paul in Philippians 3:12-14
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
And now listen to him here in Romans 7:24-25. he says
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We don't do this for salvation, we do it because of his lordship over our lives. It's his spirit that aligns us up with his will.
We should thank him for such conviction because it is he that works in us as we're clothed in his righteousness.
God bless you.
This is not done by an alter call or an profession but by the Spirit of God that searches the heart.
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Life begins here as a babe in Christ,
God bless you for this all important portion of scripture.
If this is not gotten right nothing else matters.
The Lord told Israel in Ezekiel 36:27 he will put his spirit within them, and cause them to walk in his statutes, and they shall keep his judgments, and do them.
This is also what he does for us Gentiles. If we all agree Israel is saved "or is to be saved" the same way we are then the Holyspirit that directs their walk is the same that directs ours.
If we agree we all sin and no one can present themselves perfect but yet you can forfeit your salvation, What percentage of your sins you have to repent from to be saved?
What percentage of sins you have to commit before you lose your salvation?
Ephesians 2:4-6 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
( He made us alive WITH CHRIST)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How long does that mercy last?
Does our imperfect nature forfeit God's mercy?
God's Commandments, statutes, and judgments are perfect!
The Holyspirit drives us to perform them perfectly.
However we stumble at the perfection in the Law and sin against it even in our imperfect minds.
Even the restraint from sin let's us know we are sinners in need of God's mercy.
Paul says, in Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
You can't do anything to gain salvation and you can't do anything to hold it.
If it's not the Holyspirit that is regenerating you then you are not saved even if you supposedly stopped sinning.
Salvation is a new life, one from above with a repentant heart.
Your walk testifies of this rebirth.
Salvation comes before Sanctification and Sanctification Is a continuing work of the Holyspirit.
God bless.
The first thing they refer you to is the 10 commandments and their argument sounds just like those who present the keeping of the law as a means of salvation.
So, they should have a clear understanding of what the law was for and what it did "by the scriptures" through a study in Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians.
Romans 7:8-14.
Galatians 2:16-21.
Galatians 3:1-29.
2 Corinthians 3:5-11. and then perhaps scriptures like Philippians 3:2-14.
These verses convict the sinner and put all under sin. That's what the law was for!
Our outward ceremonies and obedience at our best couldn't make us perfect! There is no new birth!
God requires perfection that is why he required a perfect replacement, Lamb. Christ Jesus.
SANCTIFICATION FOLLWS THIS.
Consider Israel.
God displayed the fallen nature of man and their inability to perform even while God was in their midst and carried them. This was and still is an example to us.
We are lost hopeless sheep gone astray apart from Jesus's blood shed on the cross.
Understand Matthew 21:42.
Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the pivotal piece of the foundation in which we are to build on.
When we are led by the Spirit we're building with precious stone. When we are led by the flesh, we build with wood hay and stubble. every man's work shall be tested by fire.
WHEN ISRAEL AS A NATION IS DRIVEN TO CALL ON THEIR MESSIAH THOSE WHO ACCEPT HIM AT THAT TIME WILL BE SAVED ALSO. AND GOD WILL BE SANCTIFIED IN THEM.
God bless
You've stated that my use of the word 'abrogation' isn't correct, rather you "look for the maturation of the old thing" (i.e. the Law). In one sense, I do agree to what you've stated that the old, through the gift Holy Spirit, has 'matured' into a New Law now applicable to the Saint. However, the way I look at the Old Law, hence my writing of its abrogation (abolishment), is that the Law was bound to the Old Covenant (there could be no separation at all). If a Jew continued to follow the words & compulsions of the Law, he was still under the Old Covenant & under it he would be judged. But under the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, the Old Covenant has been abolished with its requirements for rigid obedience to the Law that was intrinsic to it, with its resulting judgements. The Law that only led to death had to be abolished so that the Law that gives life ( Romans 8:2) might be established. The two could never be fused together.
So why are we seeing this differently? I agree to the Words of the Law given to Israel are everlasting & those words can certainly be applied under the New Covenant. Yet, it's not just the Words themselves, but the nature of the Old Covenant that is in question. The Words might be similar & applicable, but since the New Covenant supersedes the Old, the Old can only give the believer in Christ a 'skeletal' view of what God now requires of His children. And this, the Old Law could never show Israel - but only after Jesus came & then under the New Covenant, the Spirit can reveal the full meaning, implications, & requirement of God for holy living, now accomplished in His Power alone. This the Old Law could never do, for it wasn't in its design.
Your question would require a very long answer, beyond the scope of these pages, & you may have noticed that this matter is being presently addressed & does come up often here (because it is so important & often so misunderstood). So just a quick answer to your "quick question": when we read that the believer is 'freed, or delivered, from the Law' ( Romans 7:6), we should understand that to mean that the Law given to Israel has no more rule & binding on the one who is now 'IN Christ'.
So, those of Israel & of the Gentiles who have been saved by Christ's Blood, have entered into a New Covenant relationship (in His Blood), that not only abrogates that old Law that only revealed sin & ended in death ( Romans 7:9-11), but brings forth a New Law within this New Covenant that we are now to hear & obey. Where the Old Law written on stones demanded total obedience by one's own power or else face death, the New Law of the Spirit ( Romans 8:2) is now embedded deep in the believer, & now is given the Holy Spirit energized power to obey, not just a set of 10 Commandments, but all the Law of God. And this New Law covers every aspect of the believer's life, which means that God's Commands are no longer limited to a number, but the Spirit brings every thought, word or deed into the believer's spiritual view & applies conviction & understanding applicable to the individual.
So yes, the believer IN Christ, can never be "lawless", for if he is & seeks to live his life separate from the workings of God's Spirit in him, he should then question whether real salvation is his actual experience. And I would venture further to state, that a child of God, led of His Spirit in him, would hardly be able to go through his waking moments each day without regular testings & examinations by the All-searching, All-ministering Holy Spirit residing in him. Blessings.
Part 3.
Romans 7:15-25.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Philippians 3:7-11.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have
suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the
righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
The law was given to Israel, but it wasn't to make them Holy.
It was given to show the world that it was necessary for a new birth in Christ Jesus.
God bless.
Part 2.
Romans 7:7-9
What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Romans 7:10-14.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
See Part 3
Part 1
Romans 7:1-5
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For WHEN WE WERE in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to BRING FORTH FRUIT UNTO DEATH.
( The law shows us we have a fleshly nature that is fallen and incapable of bringing forth fruit unto God.)
Galatians 3:21-25.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Romans 7:6.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
See Part 2.
As the Apostle Paul stated in Romans 7:6, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter", we see his affirmation of the futility of the Law when compared to the glory & permanence of life in obedience to the Holy Spirit. The Decalogue was simply a snapshot of some of God's Holy Requirements, & even in this short set of Commands, Israel failed miserably. But the Law given & empowered by the Spirit embraces all of God's Requirements, searching every area of a believer's heart & life, revealing sin & shortcomings, but enabling him to live unto God & not to the letter of the Law.
However, I'm not certain that the "majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life". From my experience, I've learned that many don't correctly understand this Truth.
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
Romans 7:24 1 Corinthians 15:44 1 Corinthians 15:40
This is a topic that comes up often on this site.
There's maybe a handful such as Bro Dan that believes the commandments was given as a requirement to earn salvation. "When you are done, God owes you"
Look at it this way.
Ok, IF the commandments was given as a requirement to earn your salvation.
Here's questions we should ask ourselves
Does the scripture say; "do the best you can, OR KEEP THEM?, It says keep them!
Can the commandments cause one to be born Again as mentioned in John 3:1-21? Nicodemus a teacher of the Law could not comprehend this.
How many times can you get away with sin before you are doomed for hell? ( I would suggest that you are born a sinner, being that you have to be born Again to become saved.)
If God required a perfect Lamb to take your place and atone for your sins
it's because God required you to be perfect in keeping yourself apart from sin. ( ALL YOUR LIFE)
The thought of sinning is a sin!
No one was able to do this and no one e ever will!
WE ARE TO DO OUR BEST BUT THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
WE NEEDED A SAVIOUR!
Please read Galatians 3:1-29 and
Romans 7:14-25.
Also let's take a look at what Dan shared.
1 John 3:24. "AND HE THAT KEEPETH HIS COMMANDMENTS DWELLETH IN HIM, AND HE IN HIM. AND HEREBY WE KNOW THAT HE ABIDETH IN US, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US."
( This is done after salvation!! Hereby we know he is in us, when we keep his commandment.)
This is what I said in my first reply!
( Everything else is obedience to him after you are saved, because he wills you and Lords over your life with a regenerated heart )
Let's go to the previous verse to see what this commandment is to get more context.
1 John 3:23AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, THAT WE SHOULD BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment.
This is what the Holyspirit causes you to do!
John is telling you what you should expect.
I pray others can help also.
Back to work for me.
GB
The Ten Commandments are ten laws in the Bible that God gave to the nation of Israel after the exodus from Egypt.
They are essentially a summary of the 613 commandments contained in the Old Testament Law.
The first four commandments deal with our relationship with God. The last six commandments deal with our relationships with one another.
Many people mistakenly look at the Ten Commandments as a set of rules that, if followed, will guarantee entrance into heaven after death.
In contrast, the purpose of the Ten Commandments is to force people to realize that they cannot perfectly obey the Law ( Romans 7:7-11), and are therefore in need of God's mercy and grace.
No one can perfectly obey the Ten Commandments ( Ecclesiastes 7:20.
The Ten Commandments demonstrate that we have all sinned ( Romans 3:23) and are therefore in need of God's mercy and grace, available only through faith in Jesus Christ.
Tdianne, All of God Commandments are holy and any STRENGTH you have to keep them comes after you have been saved.
If you have ever ONCE broken any one of these commandments you've already fallen short of God's requirements and in need of God's mercy through trusting in the one whom God has sent to take away the sins of the whole world. Jesus!
So, should you be baptized? Yes, if you ARE saved but not to get saved.
You are saved by trusting and believing in Christ and his finish work on the cross.
Everything else is obedience to him after you are saved, because he wills you and Lords over your life with a regenerated heart of flesh which causes you to love God's statutes and yet convicts you of sin so we will fully appreciate the grace of Christ.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
and removing the stoney heart
When Paul wrote about the Gentiles & their law & conscience ( Romans 2:14,15), he was referring to humanity's inner 'coding' in the conscience by which they know the right & proper things to do (in relation to each other & before an unseen God). These never received any of God's Laws, but their hearts will be judged because they couldn't even obey the dictates of their own consciences. So, both the Jew (with the Law), and the Gentile (without the Law, but having that inward law operating), stand condemned for their sins. The battle wasn't "between God & the Devil in having the dominion of the people", for Israel could never obey the Law anyway, as Satan would always have the victory. The battle was within Israel's heart - a heart of sin, subject to sin's demands upon them, & given over to Satan. See Paul's account of this in Romans 7:7-14 (the Law revealed his sin; he then died spiritually because of it - nothing to do with God's battles). Instead of fighting the Devil for souls, God provided His Own Sacrifice & His Own Spirit to redeem sinners.
You mentioned 'interpretation by the Spirit' & then "they died by the letterincluding the gods". Do you actually understand Psalm 82:6,7 & Isaiah 41:23, when you write these things?
I know Christians who claim its ok to for them to get drunk, do drugs, party hard, have premarital sex, have affairs, commit violence, commit homosexuality, because they were told by their pastor that they're "saved" and have nothing to worry about. This is a people pleasing Joel Osteen-type of doctrine that seeks to offer a watered down woke version of Christianity as long as it doesn't upset the culture's values. They love going to church and hearing that they don't sin and automatically obey. It validates their sin and feeling the comfort of feeling saved while being able to follow the world of satan, even though they don't admit this. This is a false doctrine from satan of course. Those who claim these Christians aren't real Christians need to then define in very specific terms what they think a real Christian is, and how they truly know they are one.
Do you really think that you will reach that perfection in this life? Here, I'm not referring to someone just giving up on dealing with sin or even taking sin lightly in his life, but that he will reach a stage in this life of no sin being found in him? And what happens in the meantime, when what he believes is possible, actually is impossible - sin ever revealing itself without abating? And even the Apostle Paul realized this in Romans 7:23-25: though he was wholly inclined to being clean before the Lord, there was a law continually working in him that kept him in captivity to sin's presence. How wretched he felt that this dichotomy should exist in one so mightily touched by the Spirit & being used of God. Did he ever gain victory? He knew his deliverance was found only in Jesus, whether by receiving His continual forgiveness or when he would be ushered into His Presence. But while in the body, he resigned himself that his mind (heart) would only serve & please the Lord, whilst his flesh would be subject to sin, with its continual appearing. You may have a different take on this, but I see that as with Paul, so also with us, the struggle with sin will never cease.
As well, we might be strong in not giving into temptation - ever - but sin appears even when not being tempted (such as I gave in those examples a couple of days ago). That was the natural outworking of the flesh - giving inward responses in situations that were generally considered normal by the world, but were sin as far as the Lord is concerned & I needed correction. GBU
Part 2.
Romans 7:8-10. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
WE ALL AGREE THE LAW IS HOLY, SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE LAW THAT SLEW PAUL?
Romans 7:11-14
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. BUT SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WORKING DEATH IN ME BY THAT WHICH IS GOOD; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
PAUL IS SAYING THESE HOLY COMMANDMENTS EXPOSED HIM.
THAT HE MIGHT APPEAR SINFUL WORKING DEATH IN HIM BY THAT WHICH IS GOOD. ( The commandments.)
Also see 2 Corinthians 3:7-9
Vs 7:15-28.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: FOR TO WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; BUT HOW TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I FIND NOT.
WHAT DID PAUL FIND THAT IS GOOD? (THE COMMANDMENTS)
COULD HE PERFORM THEM? ( NO HE SAYS.)
19-23.) For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
Conclusion;
Romans 7:24-25.