Discuss Romans 7 Page 2

Romans 7

Part 1.

Romans 7:1-6

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

WE HAVE BEEN FREED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW WORKED IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FRUIT UNTO DEATH.

BEFORE WHILE UNDER THE LAW AND DOING THE LAW MAY HAVE BEEN GRIEVOUS TO US IN THE FLESH.

NOW we do what we do with a new heart and by the Spirit of God that wars against the flesh.

7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

This is a heart change taken place.

Before we didn't have a heart that wanted to please God, and we were without strength.

Now we have a heart that desires perfection but a sinful flesh that is warring against the new heart.

Page 2. Frankie J.

And I share in agreement with your comment from 1 Peter 1:2, etc.

But I don't believe that I have had a "change of heart" about the liberty we have in the new Covenant. I've never ever subscribed that a believer should ever think that it is right to live a life of sin, but when sin surfaces, he recognizes it for what it is, repents, & amends his ways with the Spirit's Help. I don't ever see that we can be sinless in this life, but we can deal with 'the sin that works in our members that wars against the law of our minds (what we know by the Spirit as the right way to live)' ( Romans 7:23). This war will always be with us - how we listen to the Spirit's Voice & take hold of His Enabling, will give either victory or defeat. But living a sin-filled & defeated life can never be the mark of one truly born again. Blessings.

Page 2. David0921.

1 John 2:3-5: speaks of keeping Jesus' Commandments, not specifically the Ten Commandments (there is a clear difference between them). Psalm 119: the Laws, Precepts, Judgements, etc. given to Israel; not to those in Christ Jesus.

"How do I determine what is sin and what is not?" The Holy Spirit Who resides in my life instructs me in all things I need to know or be alerted to: of ALL of God's Laws, of where I slip up, of things just not quite right that can be regarded as sin ( John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 4:30). The Decalogue in & of itself falls far short of what God would require of me. In other words, I would rather be subservient & obedient to the Spirit than to the Letter of the Law. And when I fail Him, I am gently instructed & helped to learn & follow His Path.

"So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today", I certainly don't mean the Truth contained therein, including all other Laws, whether Israel or Gentile-specific, but I refer to the purpose of the Decalogue, as a whole package of Laws for Israel that demanded obedience or punishment (including obedience to the 4th Commandment).

This type of Law has no bearing on those now IN CHRIST, who have been delivered from that Law of sin & death ( Romans 7:6; Romans 8:2). If there was no Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, then yes, we must grab onto & perform all the laws we can find in God's Word & hope for the best in the Judgement. But the believer's salvation is secure because it is all of God (His Great Plan), all of Jesus (His Great Sacrifice) and of His Spirit (His Great Ministry), Who will 'present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy'. My obedience & confidence rests only in the Person of the Godhead, enjoying the liberty of serving Him as He directs & not conforming to a set of rules that was prescribed to judgement & death.

Page 1.

Thank you David0921; you have written extensively on this subject & asked many questions. I don't plan to give as much detail as it deserves, but will address some of it.

The Bible from Genesis to Malachi is about God's dealings with His people, Israel - giving them the Law & associated punishments for their disobedience. From Jesus' teachings (Gospels) onwards (the fuller meaning of aspects of that Law to Revelation), the saved Jew & Gentile can learn & apply the full requirements of all of God's Laws by the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit within them. So then, can the Gentile, whether unbelieving or believing, learn anything from the Old Law? Most certainly, but realizing that that Law was served to Israel only to show them God's requirements for them, their sinful state ( Romans 7:7), their inability to fully obey them, & their need for God's Help to deal with sin. To the God-fearing Jew under the Law, their hope & faith remained in the God they served, looking for His Redemption ( Hebrews 11:1,2,39,40); & this applied to those pre-Law & certainly pre-Christ, in Whom their redemption would one day be realized.

Romans 3:31. Romans 3:28, "we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law". This is the essence of this chapter, of justification of both Jew & Gentile through faith & not dependence on the Law. Is the Law then nullified because of faith? Paul writes, "we establish the Law"; i.e. the Law's role was to make men conscious of sin (v20) & this aspect of the Law (revealing sin) is confirmed by all those who turn from sin to Christ in faith. The Law couldn't effect salvation in Jesus - only Faith in Him could. The Law served/serves its purpose, but could never bring release. Why should we then put ourselves under it by reverting to it & placing its Holy Commands with punishment on those who need the liberty found by faith in Jesus? Onto Page 2.

The law is Holy, but it couldn't make you Holy.

Matthew 9:16-17 gives a distinction between the old covenant and the new covenant.

You can't put new wine into old bottles or new garments on to old garments.

We are Identified with Jesus Christ finish work on the cross.

We're given a new heart whereby a new inner man is created. We have been given an earnest of the spirit.

However, we still have this body of sin that wars against our nature. This is what Paul is saying in Romans 7:20-25.

Sin should not have Dominion over you, (Meaning, it should not rule over or dominate you).

This is not just your outward actions that we focus so hard on trying to control.

This also speaks on your thoughts and temperament, your lusts in your members, desiring to want.

The lust of the eyes and so on.

Our blood washed garments are made perfect, "by the cross",

THIS IS WHAT PAUL IS TELLING US IN ROMANS 6.

Paul is saying you have been joined with Christ.

Does that make you perfect? NO.

The payment was perfect, but the purchase has yet to be perfect.

Paul is saying recognize that sin has no rule/dominion over you.

Our position in Christ remains forever. This is what 1 John 3:1-9 is saying.

So, do we sin outwardly? Answer; 1 John 1:7-10 is the sum of it all.

Your best effort to keep them clean is like cleaning with filthy rags. That's all our righteousness is!

Our righteous deeds may build on the already set foundation, but it won't "add to the foundation.

We are imperfect vessels looking for the mercy of Christ.

Jude sums it up in vs 21-24 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference:

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

GOD BLESS

Our Addiction To Sin

The apostle John tells us:

1 John 3:4

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The apostle Paul tells us:

Romans 3:31

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

The wages of SIN is DEATH! We should not fool ourselves - Jesus didn't come here to die on the Cross so that we can KEEP SINNING! He wants us to repent and strive to live sin free. He tells us to Stop Sinning! John 5:14

The gift that God gives us in the salvation of Christ is to empower us to break free from the sin cycle, and repent of sin through conscious effort. When our own efforts fall short, His power is strong enough to help us succeed, but we must make the effort!

As Christains we should be encouraging each other to Not Sin, instead, I continually hear the opposite - stating we are sinners, and we can never stop sinning. That is a deafest attitude, and an assurance that we will continue to wallow in sin.

Read and Believe

Page 2. GiGi

So, I read that the Law of the Spirit of Life IN Christ Jesus is the New Law found in the New Covenant that superseded the Old - one that only revealed sin but incapable of how to be cleansed & to live in joy & victory.

b. Romans 7:7-13,22,23: I agree that there is "another law in my members" that wars against the mind; or another principle initiated by sinful corruption that is constantly at war with the enlightened enlivened knowledge of sin's depravity in a believer's life. Yet here, Paul is writing about his personal struggles with sin nature's drawing power & his battle to gain victory over it. Only through Jesus Christ can he find rest & victory (v25), yet in the meanwhile, the battle will always rage. I too don't see Paul in judgement of God's Laws at all, rather with his personal battle with sin (the 'other law' of sin vs spirit (mind) raging within). Paul's view of God's Laws was always of the highest order - it's the application of it to his life that was irrelevant, when he viewed himself as now controlled & obedient to the Spirit & not to the Law that only brought death.

So, I think that you can see the difference I make in considering the position of the Decalogue in the life of a believer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Truth & desired outcome that it brought, but it's irrelevance to the Spirit-filled, Spirit-led believer is now important. Had the Person & Work of the Spirit simply been a force or energy of God, as some would erroneously believe, then yes, we definitely need to grasp onto anything (any Law) that would help us to know God's Will & be obedient to Him. But thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gifts to us in Christ Jesus & His Holy Spirit, so that the letter, which kills, now is obsolete with the coming of the Spirit Who gives life & power to live according to ALL the Laws of God.

I trust you will have read my responses to others, as I've tried not to be repetitious here. Every blessing dear sister.

Page 1.

Thank you GiGi - I appreciated your insight into those Scriptures that I find invaluable in any discussion as we've been having here.

I can't disagree with what you've shared, as I too, see that all of God's Laws are holy, special, & pertinent to knowing the Will of God & pleasing Him by following them. I also understand the passages you shared, viz Romans 7:22,23 & Romans 8:1-5, in a similar way as you, except to highlight these points:

a. In Romans chap 8: "the law of sin & death" (v2), I don't see it as simply as being freed from "the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God". This is certainly true that the witness of our new lives in Christ is evidence of no longer standing condemned before God. But Paul writing, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh", strongly suggests that "what the law could not do" by its weakness (inability) in its successful working in sinful flesh, refers directly to the Decalogue, which really is the Law of sin & death, or we can read it as 'the Law that reveals sin & ultimately leads to death'.

After we have been freed from the limitations & constraints of such a Law, the righteousness that is contained in that Law (v4), might yet be fulfilled in us. And how is this possible? Only by the Spirit's application & enabling us to perform it in our lives. On its own, the Law was totally incapable of doing this - it wasn't given for that purpose - just to show sin & its severity & permanence. The Israelite who truly loved God & desired to please Him would have been tormented by the magnitude of his sins, as the Law in simple terms showed him, & if it were not for those sacrifices proving that God still heard their cries & promised to cover their sins for that time, the Israelite would have found no relief at all. Onto Page 2.

Chris,

Part 3.

Thank you for bearing with me in this lengthy post.

In verse 6, Paul sums his point up by stating that to live according to the sinful nature (carnality or fleshly) is death. Disobedience always kills. But, he says, that to be spiritually minded (living by the Spirit and the Spirit's law of life) is life and peace (with God and personally at peace).

So what Paul is contrasting in these verses is not the holy Law of God and the life of the Spirit. He is contrasting the law that is at work in us ( Romans 7:7-13 identifies sin as the culprit, not the Holy Law.) "The Law is "spiritual" "hoy, and "just" and "good

(Verse 7:12;14) Paul identifies the law of sin and death as what he speaks of in Rom. 7:22-23, not as the Law of God, but as another law.

So, Chris, I do not think in any way that Paul was speaking of the holy Law of God as being the law of sin and death because he identifies the law as good that he delights in in verse 7:22 and the law of sin and death as "another law" in verse 23.

To sum up:

The holy Law of God is good, just and holy and desirable for regenerated people. However, it condemns those who break it.

The law of sin and death is another law that came into effect when the holy law is transgressed through our sinful nature (the flesh) This law brings in reality condemnation upon those who sin.

Therefore, sin all men have sinned and fall short of God's glory and righteous requirements for anyone to have relationship with Him, the law can never bring us into this relationship, being powerless to save us from our sins.

The law of the Spirit is the power to walk in Him in obedience, having been regenerated and saved from our sins through Jesus.

Believers will desire to live according to the will of God by the work of the Holy Spirit, and will, with the Spirit's help, resist the desires of the sinful nature.

We who believe will, like Paul, love God's law.

Thank you for your responses to those Scriptures, Bro. Dan. I guess we will have to leave off interpreting those Scriptures, indeed all that speak of the Law, since we'll never come to agreement of which Law, its timing & purposes, that is being referred to.

But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).

And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.

Good evening.

I haven't been able to get away to participate by reading the bulk of the posts and replies on the 10 commandment topic.

I would like to mention a misunderstanding in the communication between the several views on this topic.

There's a difference in the 10 commandments being Holy and being justified by keeping them.

We say Israel failed to be a witness but is that totally accurate?

How did they fail? By not keeping the law?

Before anyone answer that I would like for us to consider a few things.

1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!

2) The law was given to Israel. Romans 9:4. So they had a ministry to minister to the Whole world as "fleshly" Children of an active, living, Holy God.

This ministry was called ministration of death..

2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

They were examples for us and this is written to us.

They successfully showed the world what Paul stated in Romans 7:5-14.

The world is unable to be Justified by the Law.

3) To say Israel failed for not keeping the law is not exactly correct.

They failed by thinking they were justified by the law.( Not just the 10 commandments ) after all there were articles for certain sins.

They failed because they stumbled at that stumblingstone!

That's where they failed!!

Romans 9:31-33.

They all didn't fail, there was a remnant according to the election of grace and still is.

Romans 11:4-8.

vs 5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE!)

This election is not determined by works.

In other words works wasn't elected as God's way to justify his people.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Yes the law is Holy and we all fail to be Justified by it, so we were all dead in trespasses and sins.

This is where the cross comes in.

Ephesians 2:1-5.

God bless.

I read your latest response to mine but see that it has disappeared. But I would state that I have never put the Decalogue or any of the Commandments of God on an inferior level or lacking in Truth & with the full authority of God. That is never in question, even as Paul wrote in Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." And then as he continues in that chapter, that the Law, that was "good", was meant to show the exceeding sinfulness of his corrupt nature. He wouldn't have seen this in such light as a good devout Pharisee (i.e. such words could never come out his mouth); but now as one who has experienced re-birth, he can say 'that my eyes are opened to see what the purpose of that Law was'. Israel then, as now, cannot see what Paul saw; their obedience to the Laws before them (at least by the devout amongst them today), are what they expect to carry them through to blessing & eternity.

Therefore, I raised Romans 8:1-4 for your consideration. I was hoping in your comment to me, you would also refer to this very telling portion of Scripture that must apply to & affect every true believer, cutting deep into the heart. Again, Paul stated that the Law was limited in what it could achieve. Their words & one's diligent obedience to them could never give a person cleansing or the sure hope of eternal life - if it could, then Jesus should not have suffered & died. The Law failed miserably, as far as snatching the sinner from judgement. The Law was good & came in the Power of God but its purpose was limited in regards to salvation. Only through Jesus Christ & His Gift of the Holy Spirit could the "righteousness of the Law" be applied & fulfilled in the believer. Should then the believer go back & hang onto that Law, when the Law given by the Spirit, giving life in Christ Jesus, frees a sinner from a Law that only gave death? Sabbath-keeping can only be by choice - never by commandment & never to be imposed upon another.

Thanks Bro. Dan. We've been here before. So "why do so many Christians make such a big deal about following God's Commands." Can't answer for others, but I see that all of God's Commands (whether the Decalogue, or the myriad of other Laws & regulations), applied only to the Jews - for their instruction & performance. None of that applied to me as a Gentile. And none of those laws given to Israel are expected to be recognized by Gentiles. If Jesus didn't come & give His Life to redeem us to God, then as a Gentile hearing of such Laws that God required obedience, might place on me some conviction & responsibility to keep them so as to appease/please the God of Israel.

So the Decalogue, for example, was given to a specific people for a specific purpose. If I relied only on it to give me finite rules for obedience, then I would fail God. If the command said, "Thou shalt not kill" & I obeyed it & never murdered, then I could say that I had fully kept that commandment. And that is how Israel would have understood it. But Jesus then came on the scene & taught His disciples what 'murder' meant ( Matthew 5:21-24). So here we now have that connection between the old Law that only condemned & brought death ( Romans 7:4-6) & now the Deliverer, through His Sacrifice, Who has "delivered us from the lawthat we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".

If one believes that the Decalogue is still binding, that's their choice. But my belief is that those in Christ (of Jew & Gentile) are far beyond the Decalogue & are now indwelt & led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:1-4), that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us". My reference can never be to the Decalogue, only to the Holy Spirit who interprets the whole Law, pertaining to life & godly living, helping me to obey & giving power to live it - which the Old Law could never do. I ask, 'why should I go to a system that could never give life, or even syncretize it with the Law of the Spirit'?

Part 1

Testaments, Old and New.

Different Testaments? No, not really. Actually the Old one but renewed.

Jesus has said, Matthew 17-19, "(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The New Testament is actually a "renewed version" of the Old Testament.

BUT it progresses one step forward. It goes deep in the heart of people where all starts.

Jesus quides people into the deeper origins of sin creation. Sin, He said, is not pnly the outward manifestation of it but people should look inside their heart to find out the origins of it and fight it. The circumcition of the flesh should become the circumsision of the heart. There is no need to swear, just say the truth. Don't separate your wife, God doesn't accept it any more, it wasn't His actual wish from the very beginining. Do not get angry with your brother since that may lead you even to murder. You can eat any type of animal we want, because God now cleans them through prayer...and many more. And mainly the sacrifices of animals were actually of no use in erasing sins. Jesus has now become our sacrifice. The Old Testament revealed what sin is, BUT gave no way of escaping from it. Paul says in Romans 7: 7 that the Law showed us what is sin.The Law lead people to Christ, Paul in Galatians 1:24 says "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." The perfect sacrifice who leads believers to perfection. Not abolishing of our sinful nature but forgiveness through His sacrifice.

Page 2.

Romans 7. You stated, "Paul here is relating his struggles in the operations of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience". If this is as you say, then it certainly implies that sanctification can only be realized when the sins of the flesh are dealt with. When sin is removed completely, then sanctification is complete. See his agony in Romans 7:14-25, with his final exclamation "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." His 'members' were still captivated by the 'law of sin', but in his renewed mind (& heart) he served God with all his strength.

Re: using Hebrew/Greek, I would disagree with what you shared. If that's the case, let us not read the Bible at all & just be led of the Spirit in all things, since the Bible we read is in English (maybe another by-product from Babel). Knowing, or at least inclined to learn, from the original languages is one of the greatest endeavors to understanding the Bible & when we understand it, the Holy Spirit might make those heavenly Words meaningful to our hearts & enabling them to be applied to our lives. If the Word of God that we read is already Spirit-charged, then I regard that written Word of equal authority to the other ministries of the Holy Spirit to God's children. But it's important as to how we read the Word & rest our beliefs on a correct & firm foundation; for upon this our beliefs & ministry are built. Blessings.

Thanks Frankie J. Just going through your comments, with my understanding from the Scriptures.

a. 'You are in State 1, as in Eden before the fall' - I assume slowly progressing to attain the fullness of that state. The only problem with this is that you & I have a sin nature inherited from Adam & Eve, whereas before the fall Adam & Eve had no sin - they were pure. Romans 5:12-14. If we could ever reach that state before death, i.e. of total purity as A & E, there would be no need to die physically as sin would no longer be in our members & the sin nature once given without choice, would be eradicated. But death will come to all of us proving we are still sinners, and should the Lord tarry, our dying will prove without doubt that our inherited sin nature demands the death penalty ( Romans 6:23). For this Christ came, that we might be resurrected into new & eternal life because of His forgiveness of our sins thus giving us clear consciences before God.

b. Paul never ever reached full purity or sinlessness ( Romans 7:14-25) - he would have yearned for it but he knew that while in this body that desire to be exactly like his Savior would be impossible. And his exclamation: "O wretched man that I am", was his constant sense of failure before an Holy God, but he kept his body in subjection & his eyes fixed on Jesus, aiming for the prize ( Philippians 3:12-14).

c. I agree, 'being tempted is not a sin', even as Christ was tempted. But Jesus never gave in to it even to the agony of the Cross. Could we ever say the same for us sinners, destined for hell, but saved only by the Grace of God? The Work of the Spirit is constant & should be a witness inwardly & outwardly as we mature in faith & love - but our perfection will only come beyond the grave when our sin nature will be gone & "we will be like Him", both physically & when the flesh will be cleansed from all evil. Blessings.

Nope, Frankie,

As long as we live in this mortal life we will have the sinful nature in us even though, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, too. And the Holy Spirit wars against the sinful nature all of our mortal lives, increasingly winning the victory over our sinfulness as He sanctifies us bit by bit, from glory to glory ( 2Cor. 3:17-18; Romans 7:13-25 as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to put to death the works of the sinful nature ( Romans 8:12-13).

It will be only in the life to come when we have put of mortality and the corrupt sinful nature due to the resurrection of our bodies to immortality and in corruptibility will we be freed from the death sentence brought on us by the sin of Adam and our own sin and our sinful nature died when we died physically, when we will enter into the eternal state perfect, glorified, and completely separated from sin and any sinful inclination forever. Hallelujah!

In this life we are to fight the good fight of faith in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and through His resurrection. It is in this life that we are to fight against our sinful nature by walking according to the Holy Spirit who is at work empowering us to obey God and to will and do the will of God. We will never come to a point of perfection in this life because the sinful nature continues in us until our last breath. But we can grow and mature in holiness as we surrender to the lead of the Holy Spirit who teaches us through the Scriptures as to how we are to live in each moment.

Lemme just say that there is a 2 nd Child that comes out of Christ Loins....When he breathe on them they were impregnated for the 2 nd Child the H.G.....Which are the Children of PROMISE....Solomon was the 2 nd Child that came out of Davids loins....But Jesus is telling us there is a greater then Solomon HERE....Which is the H.G. the Child of Promise....The early Church was precious in the eyes of the lord....But he had to give them up till the woman gives birth ..... Micah 5:3...They were a great army but they all died out and they were scattered.....But 4 times in John 6 Jesus says he wd raise them up and gather them again in the last day....They were an Israel of God the early CHURCH . Ezekiel 37:3....Can these dry bones live....Hear ye dry bones the words of the lord.....That New Covenant the LIVING WORDS THE BOOK IN THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.....That Jesus wrote with his own blood....And ye shall live..My words are spirit and life..Not paper and ink ...Thats y Jesus said I am the light of the world but the night comes (a time of spiritual darkness) when no man can work....The last 2 k yrs have been such a time of darkness...Lover and friend has thou put far from me and my aquaintence into DARKNESS....As Isaiah said Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl....Even the big mega Churches are filled with darkness and desolation...Preaching gain is godliness and Money is ministry....Paul said from such turn away....

......But back to Bathsheba who loss her 1 st Child b/c she had a husband Uriah.....The early Chuch had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul is saying...You are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be married to another and bring forth fruit unto God which is the H.G. the Child of Promise... Romans 7:4....But Bathsheba travailed a 2 nd time for the Child of Promise Solomon....My lil Children of whom i travail IN BIRTH AGAIN a 2 nd time thus a 2 nd Child which is the H.G. that Child that comes out of Christ loins.

Hi Adam.

Just referring in general whether on this site or the world.

That's why I said the world persecutes the Gospel message.

I gave an illustration of three different views.

The one that the world hates most is the message of the cross!

The slain Lamb that took away the penalty of sin for the whole world and made an atonement for those who believe.

That's the only message that's deemed foolish to the lost.

1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

That's the partition between those who are truly saved and those who are deceived.

The law is holy as Paul says in Romans 7:12.

But it doesn't regenerate the heart!

The law is the ministration of Death as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3.

When the law came it slew us from Adam and Eve till the end of time!

It declared man guilty!!

It painted the picture of mankind in Adam!

Now that we have the law we also have sin and the wages of sin is death.

The world is softer on you do your best and the Lord will save you by his Love apart from Christ than Christ finish work on the cross apart from the Law.

And it's emphasized in this notion you can loose your Salvation.

If you can't work to get it, you can't work to keep it.

The regeneration by the Holyspirit is a neglected doctrine today.

Our measuring instrument is Love for the Brothern.

That's also misunderstood!

We treat "this Love" as an work rather than a fruit is a big issue.

God bless you.

Leoj

Hello everyone, Had an interesting question asked at our men's Bible group. " Our we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because where're sinners". Would like to hear your comments based from the Bible . Thank you

MountHoreb Response to Leoj:

When reading the bible, A Sinner is someone who has a leaning or urge to go against the will of Jehovah God ( Psalm 83:18)

God Saids one thing; a Sinner is inclined to go the other way. we have an example at Genesis 3

Point: Romans 5:12-15

There is Hope: John 3:16,17; 1 Timothy 1:8-10; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; John 17:3

Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) is not looking for perfection. he is like a father and we are like his Children prone to mistakes.

our father is looking for us to tell him the truth, to be humble, to cry to him and repent especially if it's something that

is to difficult to handle on our own. as sinners we need the spirit of God in order to have self-control in all things. This is why Jesus said what he said at Matthew 6:9-12; 1 Peter 5:6-11

Point: Luke 24:45-48; Romans 7:7-25

Hope these scriptures help. Thanks

Both. Man was created upright; and Lucifer perfect in his ways before they sinned. Therefore; there was within their nature the potential for sin. Things always start in the mind; and are related to the state of our souls. In both cases self decided based on their own understanding that God (their Creator) was somehow holding out on what was best for them; and they pursued what seemed the best path to elevate their status and consequently put God as second in their lives. The final decision to act on these impulses caused the chain reactions leading to destruction. For Adam it was immediate separation from fellowship with God (or spiritual death) shame and distancing himself from God (along with Eve); then the delayed results of the fallen earth; toiling with sweat; pain in childbirth and eventual physical death and for later generations a reduced life span.

If we step back to Paul's statement in Romans 7:9 there was a time before the law when he didn't know sin. Hence; we see some sort of age of accountability for actions. If we are not conscious of deliberate acts of rebellion against God then it seems scriptural that before that age we are saved by grace and can't be punished for something we don't understand. Once we do reach that age; then we are also judged more harshly for certain sins than others according to what is considered an abomination; or where a death penalty is declared for murder and such with the religious and associated civil laws society still has today. When we learn how to repeat acts of rebellion; then we are increasing our judgment; but clearly since all men are in Adam we are all sinners by nature as another result of the fall affecting all of mankind (Adam's progeny).

God judges us for outward manifestations of breaking His Divine decrees as well as for the thoughts and imaginations which in reality are doing these things in our heart. The fate of Lazarus and the rich man is said to result from actions not nature

Plz note the woman in Rev.12:5 had to birth a Child which is the H.G. to lead her into the Kingdom....When he the Spirit of truth is come he will lead you into all truth (the kingdom).....But he cannot speak of himself simply b/c he is just an infant that new born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word...Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil CHILD impling that heavenly birth a spiritual birth.....As that which is born of the spirit is spirit thats the H.G. the Child of PROMISE....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me...ME....Thats how he will come again by the new birth....We are gona have a baby Christ....Thats y he always refers to himself as the Son of Man....Mankind is gona be married to Christ and bring forth fruit unto God... Romans 7:4....But Satan the dragon wants to destroy the woman and her children....Which are the Children of PROMISE....The multiplication of Christ in humanity via his precious seed the living word which is the contents of the book of life.... Jeremiah 30:6 saw all men in travail and birth pains....Which is that New Covenant that he wrote with his own blood at Calvary.... Jeremiah 31:34 I will KNOW them all from the least to the greatest and their sins and iniquities will i remember no more.

Behold me and the Children the lord has given me are they not for signs and wonders to the Children of Israel....They are an Israel of GOD.....Children that cannot lie so Jesus is their father....Simply b/c they are gona be born in us via his Precious seed....That was the great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven....Thus the sower/bridegroom and his seed....The wheat is a baby Christ....Simply b/c Christ is the bridegroom....Jesus said that the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom..... Psalms 8:2 For out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou has perfected Praise that thou mightest still the enemy....Our carnal minds satans seat....Thus the babes and sucklings he mentions...Our New BORN.

Hiya Gi-Gi Gbu sweety..Lemme try to talk to you a min.... Romans 7:4 You are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be married to another even Christ Jesus the living word...That you should bring forth FRUIT unto God...GiGi we don't wanna be married to paper and ink Our bridegroom is Christ Jesus which is God Spirit and life...We cannot bring forth fruit unto God by reading the bible the written word a killer....As 2 Cor. 3:6 is telling us He has made able ministers of the New Covenant...Not of the letter but of the spirit...The letter is a killer but the spirit gives life..Jesus is not the author of a killer but of the spirit...Which is that book in the right hand of the father..That book of life is the N.C....GiGi we need to birth a baby Christ that Child of Promise but the bible does not have that good seed.... Mat. 13:37....Jesus says its only the son of man that soweth the good seed which is his VOICE the living Word...The bible cannot sow that good seed...simply b/c its spirit and life....the bible is just paper and ink a nite light...We cannot bring forth fruit unto God by reading the bible....Even in the natural a woman cannot get pregnant by reading a book...And we need to birth the Child which is the H.G. the Child of Promise the good FRUIT...Thats y he is saying b/c i have spoken these words ( his seed living words) sorrows have filled your hearts... John 16:13...A woman when she is in travail has sorrows but after the Child comes her sorrows are turned into Joy...The Child is the H.G. that Child of Promise...But the woman cannot get pregnant by reading a book ( the bible)...the written words....My words are spirit and life...We need to know our husband who has living seed...Our fruit the Child is very important....Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....The woman in Rev.12 does not receive the Kingdom till she births the Child...Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receives ME...GBU.

Apart from Salvation, "there is none righteous no not one" ( Romans 3:10). God declares that Job was righteous because God had saved Job. When God saves us, i.e. we become Born Again, God gives us a new Resurrected Soul which "can not sin" ( 1 John 3:9). Once God has saved us, the Righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to us ( James 2:23) and we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God. But we can and do fall into sin because or new Resurrected Soul still resides in a body that still lusts after sin and we are an integrated personality, body and soul ( Romans 7:18-25).

Therefore Job is called righteous because God had saved him.

The Bible IS THE WORD OF GOD. There are no contradictions nor "lies" in the Bible because God is the author of the Bible.

Hi Adam.

I wouldn't say God weigh one sin against another.

I'd rather say the weight of sin/penalty is on us.

It's never permitted and repentance is seeing and agreeing with God on the incurable ungenerated heart apart from God's indwelling spirit.

With Christ spirit we won't continue in sin but yet if we say we have no sin we lie.

Sin still exists in us.

You can take a deaf blind baby and tie him up a his life until death. He's still flesh and there's no good thing in the flesh. He still has that ungenerated heart.

He will still need mercy.

Paul said in Romans 7:15-25 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God bless.

The very reason the woman is giving birth to the manchild (the spirit of truth the H.G. ) is that he might reprove the world of sin and righteousness and Judgement....That the Prince of this world (satan) will be Judged...our carnal minds is satans seat...Which is gonna make us righteous and not able to sin as he that is born of God cannot sin which is our new innerman....The H.G. I come not to judge this world but to save this world...I come not to destroy mens lives but to save mens lives...

.....Thats y Jesus wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts Matthew 13:18 that we might be bornagain of his incorruptible seed the words of that New Covenant....The good fruit is a baby Christ thats y he is saying unless you receive the kingdom of God as a lil Child...which is that manchild that is gonna rule all nations... Romans 7:4..Mankinds fruit unto God via that Promise Seed...The contents of the book in the fathers right hand that Jesus wrote with his own blood...They don't call him the bridegroom for nothin...He wants to impregnate this whole world with his precious seed....Thats y Jeremiah 30:6 saw this whole world in travail and birth pains....A time of Jacobs troubles simply b/c this World is gona be the Israel of God...But we will go thru much tribulation....1 st Cor. 12 :13...By 1 spirit are we all baptised into the body of Christ Jew or Gentile...Bond or free...If i be lifted up i will draw all men unto me....Remember Jesus said the field is the world where that good seed will be sown....She brought forth a manchild that is gona rule all nations....Which is that Spirt of truth. Plz take note that the kingdom does not come till the woman births the children of Promise which is the H.G. The manchild, mans fruit unto God....Rev, 11:15 kjv...Then the Kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever....Right here on this beautiful Earth..Beautiful for situation the joy of the whole world is mt ZION.. Ps 48.

Hi Adam.

In Matthew 5:20 Jesus says

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Then he gives the contrast of the law and how they sought after righteousness and the righteousness imputed over unto us.

I believe here in Matthew 5:28.

The Lord is letting us know the unconditional and uncontrollable earthly desires in the heart of a worldly man.

He's showing how and where sin generates.

Here the woman is the object of the lust which leads to adultery. Lust is a condition energized by the flesh.

Hate is a condition energized by the flesh and if it's directed towards someone you're guilty of murder.

The Lord is showing how sin is in you and the transgression starts before the act.

James 4:1 explains it this way.

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"

Paul put it like this.

" Romans 7:22-24.For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

These are sensual pleasures and Selfish and sinful desires that dwell in all of us and a woman doesn't have to be the object.

He's pointing out that an exterior restraint or a obedience to a command doesn't keep one from sinning because the sin is in man and he is putting righteousness on a higher plane so no one can boast.

I don't think it's wrong to notice that someone or something is attractive as we see in Genesis 24:16.

God bless you.

Lemme just ramble a bit plz....Rev.14 :6 And i saw a mighty angel flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell on the EARTH....To every nation and ppl and tongue and Kindred this is indicative of everybody...If i be lifted up i will draw ALL men unto me...At Calvary Jesus died for everybody....If ya read Jeremiah 31:34 its all inclusive I will know them ALL from the least to the greatest...But this is that N.C. The book in the right hand of the father that our Lord wrote with his own blood...And i wept much b/c no man cd look into it....Which answers to that secret Jesus spoke of....These things are hid ( a secret ) from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes which is the H.G. as that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit from the seed of the sower...She brought forth a man child that is gona rule all nations with his rod of iron...The word of God is that rod or iron that cannot be broken....We refer to the H.G. as a baby Christ simply b/c he has to be BORN in us via the seed of the bridegroom...Our new Birth..Thats y he has to know us Thus a new innerman...That New heart and new spirit...That Child of Promise via the seed of Christ the living word....ALL nations is indicative of everybody right here on this Beautiful earth.... Luke 17:21...Jesus is saying that the kingdom of God is gonna be with in you...He dwelleth with you but shall be with in you... John 14:17....Thats y he always refers to himself as the son of man...Simply b/c mankind has to be married to Christ and bring forth fruit unto God... Romans 7:4 Which is a Baby Christ...That Child of Promise...Thats y Jesus has to be multiplied as the stars of heaven...Thus the sower and his seed the wheat is a Baby Christ...Thats y Jesus was saying unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child ( the new birth ) you will in no wise enter there in...This was Jesus version of the Rapture which is in the SPIRIT right here on this Earth...As the Gift is the H.G.

Hiya Adam yes we still sin but there in no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus.... Romans 8 :1 kjv...That walk not after the flesh but after the spirit...The 2 men in 1 bed is a perfect picture of myself...When i wd do good evil is present with me...But as Paul said if i do something i do not consent unto its not i that does it but sin that dwells in my members....Oh Wretched man that i am....Meaning the Tare that satan seed that is sown in Paul... Romans 7:24... thus a warfare in the Spirit....Kingdom against Kingdom....Violence in heaven....Thats y we must endure to the end when the Tares and gathered up and burned...But the Wheat to his barn the Kingdom....And that Kingdom is gona be with in us simply b/c that Kingdom seed is sown in our hearts and minds...Which forms Christ in us... Gal 4:19... My lil Children of whom i travail in birth till Christ is formed in you via that incorruptible seed...Which is the manchild the H.G. that Child of Promise...The Kingdom cannot come lest he sows his good seed in our hearts unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child (THE WHEAT)...you will in no wise enter there in....Thats y he has to know us simply b/c without his good seed we cannot birth the Child the H.G as that which is born of the spirit is spirit...Thats the H.G that has to be born in us...The very Kingdom of God...When he breathe on them they received the H.G....Jesus pregnated them with his good seed...Thats y the Church is the elect lady....Thats y he always refers to himself as the SON OF MAN...ok lemme go....

I cannot understand how the rapture cd be physical....When God and his Kingdom is spiritual....And Rev 11:15..The angel said the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ....And he shall reign for ever and ever...Thus the Kingdom of heaven will be with in us right here on this earth.....The H.G. is the Kingdom....Remember Jesus said thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven....But Heaven is in the spiritual realm....The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in joy and peace in the H.G....Which is spirit....Meeting him in the air is just prophetic of meeting him in the spirit...On the day of Pentecost they met him in the air which was that mighty rushing wind....Which was the H.G....Jesus just uses air and wind as symbolic language for the H.G. ....But he was talking bout the spirit..We meet him in the spirit which is that gift of the H.G....Which is that Child of PROMISE that has to be born in us....Thats y he is saying that which is BORN, BORN of the spirit tis spirit the H.G. Our new heart and new spirit our new innerman A BABY...unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child...A baby Christ...That which is BORN of the spirit is spirit the H.G...A spiritual infant that cannot speak of himself for a season....Which is the manchild that is gonna rule all nations....But he has to be BORN in us via the seed of the sower the bridegroom's seed thus a baby Christ...The Son of Man...Mankinds fruit unto God... Romans 7:4...The word BORN implies a living being is gonna be born in us..Which is spirit...the Kingdom is a HIM...Seek ye 1st the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness.

This is how Jesus describes the Rapture....Unless you receive the KINGDOM OF GOD as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...The KiNGDOM of God has to come as a child...A spiritual Birth...Thats y the new birth is so important...and thats y he has to know us.. The Child the kingdom cannot come unless he KNOWS us ..The good seed.