Discuss Romans 8 Page 11

Son, Daughter of GOD: John 1:12, 1John 3:1,2, Matthew 5:9, context Matthew 5, Matthew 13:38, John 12:36, Luke 12:32, context Luke 12,

Romans 8:14, in context please read all of Chapter Romans 8, explanation of the answer of your question in detail.

Hopefully these are all helpful

Jim Tidwell on Galatians 6

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. -- Read John 3:1-21

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a (new) creature: old things are passed away; behold, (all) things are become new.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Matthew 25: They were all virgins but 5 were lost --read the chapter

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

( John 3:7 Jesus said ye must be born again)

We all can find a verse that tells us what we want to hear, there will be many lost after he says depart from me. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Amen Brother Fred Scanlan:

Psalms 136:3 O give thanks unto the LORD of LORDS .....

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is GOD of GODS, and LORD of LORDS .....

Revelation 17:14 .....for he is LORD of LORDS, and KING of KINGS .....

Joshua 22:22 The Lord GOD of GODS, the LORD GOD of GODS ....

Psalms 82 :6 I have said YOU are gods, the children of the most high.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he did also predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, the firstborn (God) among many brethren (Gods).

God Bless YOU, Christ's BODY.

Hi Luke.

I haven't followed this post or many others due to out of town business.

I think you are spot on. Jesus was resurrected a spiritual body and you gave good supporting scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jesus was sown ith our iniquities on him, He wouldn't be raised that same sinful body and go into the presence of the Father. When Jesus took on our sins he cried out MY LORD MY LORD WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME!

I believe the misunderstanding is defining a spiritual body. It's still a body! It's a body no longer weighed down by our sin. If he was sown a natural body and raised a natural body then he wasn't quickened by the Spirit, and we are still in our sins.

We are baptized into Christ resurrection, Christ is the first fruit and the head of the body!

1 Corinthians 15:20.

Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, ( Hebrews 2:9 ) Afterwards there's no need of the natural body!

1 Corinthians 15:54-55

1 Corinthians 15:43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: ( This is talking about the body!

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

We wait to be changed like Christ resurrected body and be redeemed from corruption.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Romans 8:23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Thank God for the first fruit because we shall be raised like him.

God bless.

Amen Brother Luke:

Acts 1:9 ....and he was taken up; and a CLOUD received him (Christ the GLORIFIED BODY out of their sight;

INTO MAN: his BODY).

Christ was taken into (NEW) heaven: MAN the BODY of CHRIST.

The CLOUD: the Glory and Presence of God ABIDING in, and on, God's temple.

Exodus 40:38 For the CLOUD of the Lord was upon the tabernacle (temple of God) by day, and FIRE (Hebrew 12:29) by night .....

2 Corinthians 6:16 ....for ye are the temple of the LIVING GOD ......

Colossians 1:27 ....this MYSTERY .....Christ in you .... HIS BODY .....HIS TEMPLE .....HIS LIFE ....HIS TRUTH...

Romans 8:29 .... to be CONFORMED (by the NEW BIRTH) to the IMAGE OF CHRIST ....

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the eyes of them WHICH BELIEVE NOT, lest the light of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL, should shine unto them.

Psalms 82:6 I (the word) have SAID; ye are gods, the children of the most high.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, IS IT NOT WRITTEN in your law, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, TO WHOM the WORD of God CAME, the scripture CANNOT be broken.

Luke 9:23 .... If any man will come after me (the second coming of Christ: IN YOU) let him will DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross (first death) and follow ME (I AM the resurrection).

Ephesians 4:4 ...ONE Spirit (the Father) ....ONE Body (Man) ......

Christ the firstborn among many BRETHREN (the image of Christ).

God Bless you (the body Christ).

Dear Tim, you might also consider--

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or

persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:38,39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God be with you. May He lift you up.

Dear "Abigail Watts" i see that you have not received a reply for several days. It is correct to understand that only adultery can justify remarriage. If it is important to a person. Now this applies to the husband.

Join me on a little journey in God's word. Jesus says several times that He is one with the Father, example John 17. Actually, you get your answer there. We are also one with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

We have a Father God, (and a husband Jesus). So when we are unmarried, for example, when we meet Jesus we become one with Him as a spouse would become. And we become one with Him if we are married too.

Now it is the case that Jesus knows all our thoughts and needs of various kinds. Because He Himself has experienced things by being here on earth as a human, right? But the gifts we get by believing in Jesus, i.e. the Holy Spirit, will guide us to the whole truth. John 16:13 and mm. The Holy Spirit should be able to make us strong to stand against all evil, including carnal desire.

But to cut a long story short. Shall we say that the day we made the choice to follow Jesus we were married to Him. On that day we put away all sin, for sin shall have no more dominion over us. Romans 6:1-11

Because we have been born again into a sinless human being. Became a lover with Divine love and got to meet the Truth Himself, and receive all the good gifts Lord Jesus gives.

Now the question is? Are you standing in this first love. Yes, you will be because nothing should be able to separate us from God's love. Romans 8:35-39

We will always long for Him, have fellowship with Him whom we love, right? Revelation 2:1-7

I read the word that you refer to as adultery on all sides. The only one who can do right is the one who has become a simpleton. Or the person who has never married, he does not get carnal desire either. And that is good. In marriages of true love, there are never questions or accusations. Jesus will also be there He loves us, i loves u in Christ. John 19

Hi Brian.

Here's a couple of verses to along with what has been already shared.

Romans 8:9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, BUT THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.

God bless.

Predestination: Concluding thoughts

Lord willing; this commentary will be helpful for those who really haven't seen the repeated themes of the unity of the Godhead; and the predetermined "elect" group who are chosen for Christ to be revealed; and who therefore will respond to show saving faith. A major point that I tried to bring up in earlier chapters was that there is always a corresponding interaction going both ways; so that confession of faith and all of man's actions prompted by the Spirit are simultaneous actions. KNOWING us according to Matthew 7:23 is part of saving faith; hence the absence indicates we are tares. Our soul testifies with His Spirit ( Romans 8:16) that we are God's children.

None of the contradicts the necessity of confessing with our mouths and believing in our hearts that Christ is Lord ( Romans 10:9). We are asked to repent; but it is He who grants the gift of repentance ( Romans 2:4) and this also has a group of people in mind (the Jews as a whole who come to faith) in Acts 5:31 and the Gentiles in Acts 11:18. We still our to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6). All good fruits therefore come from the source of God; and are evidences of saving faith ( Matt. 7:17). We need to remember that God chastises all He loves ( Hebrews 12:6 etal); and therefore He prunes back so even more fruit is produced ( John 15:1-2). He is doing the work therefore; our WORKS are merely the external evidence that indeed He is working from the inside out. These have been prepared for us from before the foundation of the world ( Eph. 2:10).

The other doctrines such as God's sovereignty; our totally depraved nature; and perseverance of the saints are covered in many scriptures and can be covered in other studies. As far as free will is concerned; God accomplishes His purposes through the vicissitudes of man; and the wiles of Satan and all his minions. To not submit to our Creator is folly ( Psalm 14:1; Psalm 2:2; Rev. 19)

Soul sleep debunked part 2.

There are some who mention the fact that we have passed from death to life ( 1 John 3:14); and other verses justifying that we have already experienced the "first resurrection". This; again is an eschatological attempt at justifying that there is no Millennial period (i.e. the church age fulfills all the prophecies); which is not the focus of analysis here.

There is validity in seeing the basic principle of Genesis 2:17 and its repercussions. Clearly; there was immediate spiritual death that occurred; and a later physical death that resulted from the ensuing corruption to the flesh that the fall set in motion. For a believer; we are sealed until the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30). He promises never to "leave or foresake us" ( Deut. 31:8; Hebrews 13:5).

We have a great "cloud of witnesses" ( Heb. 12:1-2) that are further described in the chapter. We have a High Priest now that ever intercedes ( Heb. 7:25 and other verses in that book). The basic idea here is that we are always "married to Christ" ( Romans 7:4). Because of these promises; we see that our physical resurrection si merely a process; simply in reverse of what happened in the garden. Our glorification is simply a done deal in God's mind after salvation along with sanctification ( Romans 8:30). In God's eyes; we were known from eternity and part of His plan ( Genesis 3:15). Therefore; it is all grace that saved Adam's helpless race.

Soul sleep; the big lie.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 to the end of the chapter and 1 Thessalonians 5:10 make it clear; along with other verses that when the body sleeps; the spirit lives on. The question is; of course if His Spirit "testifies with our spirit ( Romans 8:16) that we are God's children." If not; then truly we are spiritually "dead" as it were; which means absent from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and hence forever trapped in our sinful nature. He has put "eternity in the hearts of men" ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). Hebrews 9:27 also makes it pretty clear that we face judgment after death. That will determine where we spend the interim period through the Millennial reign and make the "first resurrection" ( Rev. 20:6) or remains until the Great White Throne judgment. There are; apparently phases to the firstfruits which Christ Himself initiated; then some who came out of their graves AFTER the Resurrection; then those alive at His coming when the saints are Resurrected and finally the Resurrection of those who were martyred in the Tribulation. I will leave this detailed eschatology to other posts.

I already stated elsewhere where the word "qeber" is referring to the bodily state of "sleep" or death in the grave; and when "sheol" the land of the souls of all in the O.T. (now only just for the wicked) exists. Now; to be "absent from the body is present with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:6). The bigger question is WHY people want to hold to this "soul sleep" or nonexistence mentality. Part of it can be not dividing the Word properly ( 1 Tim. 2:15); or 2 Peter 3:16 where unstable people twist scripture to their own destruction. If someone knows they are in sin; and remains unrepentant in their hearts it is easy to follow this mindset so that there can be space before judgment. ( Ecclesiastes 8:11; Psalm 73:17). He is not the God of the dead but the living ( Mark 12:27). Hence; we are already "seated in heavenly places" ( Ephesians 2:6).

T. Levi's

I guess I must be naive or just actually believe that people are being honest on this site, but I have not felt "set-up" by anyone on here, and if I truly was, then I see that being led to respond to any post is an opportunity to bring Spirt-led responses to this forum. I think that is true for anyone reading-they can prayerfully respond and trust that their responses will bless others if one's words are truly Spirit-led.

I know that there are what are called "trolls" on sites like this-those who want to debate or incite another's ire or get someone's goat and elicit responses. But I think most people on here give measured, thoughtful, compassionate, gracious responses even to those who seem to be speaking rudely.

Thank you for sharing those further thoughts, T. Levis. We all have choices to make and options in our minds as how to deal with them. Our decisions are often wrongly made from our sensory promptings & not from wisdom (i.e. from a careful scrutiny of available information (not heresay or from powerful influential persons), making correct deductions, which results in a lock-tight response). Unfortunately, those who called for Jesus' death, developed wrong perceptions of Jesus, seeing Him as a threat rather than an answer to their sin & disturbed minds. But God used their unjustified accusations & anger, as with Judas Iscariot as well, to accomplish His great Plan to bring salvation to the very ones who "hated me without a cause." Incomprehensible love indeed.

During our discussion I thought of how sometimes someone will in a way "set someone up" many times law enforcement will use this technique, by allowing the "bait" to be placed before the suspected criminal, the person has the choices to turn, walk away, not respond. Even in less serious situations people will start arguing, gossip or other bad activity, even to "bait or trap". The other person depending on self control, wisdom, willpower & integrity, sometimes will have the ability in themselves to walk away not taking part. Sometimes however fall into traps set by the enemy. 1Corinthians 10:13, James 1:12-15, 1Peter 5:8,

Hope this is helpful in discussion

Godly sorrow leads to repentance; worldly sorrow to death. ( 2 Cor. 7:10). Note that it also leads to salvation and no regret.

This is illustrated with Peter who clearly knew Christ; but he in a sense had to be "converted" ( Luke 22:32) from the mindset of his old nature. This would be accomplished after the Resurrection and confirmed by the questioning of Christ as to whether he loved Him and the prophesied death for Christ that he would have to endure in the future ( John 21:18).

Judas Iscariot was only sorry for the consequences of what he did and still only saw Christ as the world did; a good man. Satan had held him for years with his greed and of course he betrayed Christ for a pittance: 30 pieces of silver. This suicidal mindset was probably a result of Satan's hypnotic pull suddenly ending; perhaps when whatever human conscience he had finally recovered. There was never any recognition given of Christ's Holiness nor was Judas ever rebuked by Him as Peter often was and no doubt everyone else. He "rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19). Even though the other disciples ran away they still stayed from afar to witness what was happening. Judas couldn't face that. It is tragic that he could get to see the Resurrection 3 days later. He only faced an end to all meaningful existence in his mind; not realizing that he then should have sought repentance and a right standing with God. It is the sin nature which is the root cause; and we need to be Born Again to put our old self to death.

Galatians 5:4 discusses "falling from grace" in terms of attempting to follow the law again and whoever breaks it is accursed; where anyone who breaks the law even in one area according to James 2:10 breaks it all. Falling from grace would mean once trusting in grace then going back to the law; hence never really having a salvation experience where we are enlightened to grace being needed and our own helpless ability to follow the Lord. (see Romans 8:5-8).

John 11 and predestination

This chapter emphasizes more in the area of the sovereignty of God and the course Christ was ordained or predestined to follow on His way to the crucifixion in Jerusalem shortly to come to pass after the event with Lazarus. Therefore, there is the theme here of the final leg of the journey when Christ would finally voluntarily sacrifice His life and how He must be preserved until that hour; as well as the confusion as to the true state of Lazarus and when He would come back to life.

The time of His journey had to at least have two days further after the two where He remained where He was residing; once He finally got to where Lazarus was in verse 17.

The contrast between verses 4 and 11 seem to be an issue; but the issue seems to indicate that the final; permanent death or bodily decay wasn't going to happen yet. There could also be an indication here that only the body; not the soul sleeps in this situation. In any event; after confusion as to the timing of the restoration of Lazarus by Mary and others lack of faith while Christ remained on earth; once the miracle did occur it cemented the final plans to kill Him. Caiaphas made the prophetic statement about one man dying for the people in verse 50; not realizing the application for the Jews AND Gentiles through the death and Resurrection to come.

Jesus knew the exact time when He was to head to Jerusalem to die; as He followed the Father's lead in all things. See John 10:18 about Christ's understanding of His power and control on laying down His life AND raising it up again. When we understand the works He has set forth in Ephesians 2:10 prepared for us we also have God lead us through the Spirit.

We are to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29) after a process going from salvation to sanctification to glorification in the next verse (8:30).

This is one of Scripture's truly great promises about what it means to be in Christ. Paul has been giving thanks to God for all the amazing things He has done for the Christians in Corinth. Everything he has mentioned is true of all Christians.

Reading these words, it's important to notice that nothing Paul has written mentions anything the Corinthians themselves have done. God has done it all, in and for them, as a free gift because of their faith in Christ. The rest of Paul's letter will show that as individuals and as a church, these believers in Corinth struggle with major spiritual problems. They are indulging in attitudes and actions that are sinful. Still, Paul writes the words of this verse to them and to all who are in Christ. God will not stop giving the Corinthians His good gifts. He will not stop sustaining them, keeping them going, holding them together. They will remain guiltless or blameless in His eyes all the way to the return of Christ on the day of the Lord.

How is this possible? Why would God do this? God's grace to us is rightly called "amazing." For those who come to Him by faith, God receives Christ's death as payment for our sins and gives us credit for Christ's righteous, sinless life on earth ( Romans 5:6-11). That's why, instead of dreading the return of Christ, Christians can wait for it with eager hopefulness ( Galatians 5:5; Romans 8:19-25).

Sister Amanda:

The purpose of it all, is to bring God's creation to TRUTH.

Creation is DECEIVED.

Sinful flesh (man) DIED ON THE CROSS; a NEW CREATION (Christ in you) arose.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ ....

Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (Christ in you) that worketh both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.

Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery ....Christ IN YOU .....

John 17:23 I in THEM, and THOU in ME, that they may be PERFECT (Christ is the only one perfect) in one .....

Psalms 82:6 I have said, ye are gods, the children of the most high.

Philippians 1:29 For UNTO YOU it is GIVEN in the BEHALF of Christ, not only to BELIEVE on HIM (the word), but also to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God.

Why is creation WAITING?

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours (God's SONS, Christ and his brothers) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the kingdom SHALL BE the LORD'S.

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the JUDGEMENT written, this HONOUR hath all his saints.

Romans 8:21 For the creature itself SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things have been subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be ALL in ALL.

Billions of people; dead and in the grave, are AWAITING the arrival of Christ and his brothers at the resurrection of the dead: to be brought to TRUTH.

Proverbs 16:6 By MERCY and TRUTH iniquity is purged .....

BELIEF will judge UNBELIEF.

God Bless YOU, his body.

I can't help to think of what scripture teaches us when reading and studying the book of Romans. All of God's creation is seeking deliverance but only those that have been born again will find this deliverance in Christ alone. Only those that have the spirit of God have hope when seeing death all around us. We see and know the world is fallen, and creation is groaning longing for God since the fall of Man. Creation itself teaches us that they is a God and that there is a curse. People will be without excuse teaching some other way to heaven and deny the Lord Jesus that hung and died for all that would believe in him. The world that is fallen a world full of religion has polluted the minds of so many by bring in damnable heresies. Yes, he is God, you bunch devils, you

religious Pharisees and Sadducees. This is for the real religious that have not the spirit and those that don't believe in the resurrection. Hell Fire and brimstone preach let's preach Christ. Read how Jesus spoke to this crowd. Thank Lord for this it was good.

Hello Frank. Just responding to the points you raised.

a. both Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper are considered ordinances of the Church, as we see both being received & performed by the apostles & the early Church: Acts 2:42; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 10:16-21; 1 Corinthians 11:22-34; Romans 6:3-5; Acts 8:34-38; Acts 16:27-33; 1 Peter 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 1:14-16. And since these 'ordinances' were never rescinded during the writing of the Scriptures, the Church has continued to observe them, albeit in different ways.

b. I agree that "being baptized into the Body of Christ is a spiritual baptism not a water baptism"; though both have different meanings. When a person is truly saved by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit resides & takes ownership of this new child of God ( Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:5). The believer enters the family of God by the indwelling Spirit: this is Baptism of the Spirit. Whereas, water baptism is simply a public declaration of one's identification with Christ, which should occur very soon after conviction of sin, repentance & faith in Jesus' Sacrifice. Yet, today this order is rarely observed (but that's another matter). Can a person be water baptized, yet not have saving faith? It can happen. Or, can one be endued with the Holy Spirit & not be baptized in water? Most certainly as salvation comes by a Work of God in the heart & not by an act of immersion in water. But water baptism ought to follow as a part of God's saving Work & due diligence from the evangelist.

c. I don't see that Paul "stopped baptizing altogether". Rather the 1st Corinthians chapter 1 reference you gave speaks about him baptizing only a few, as others seemed unworthy because of their infighting & divisions, but his mission was to preach the Gospel & not be sidetracked with water baptizing, which others could fulfil. So, we would be hard pressed to find clear Scripture that rescinded water baptism for both believing Jew & Gentile.

Correct, Chris. Jesus had control of what He chose and could do in this situation. But those who put Him to death were allowed by the Godhead to exercise their own free will to do this evil to Jesus.

Romans 8:9

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"

Acts 8:15-17 seems to suggest that it is possible

to believe and not have the Spirit?

So how does one:

a.determine whether this critical status has been achieved?

b.And if it is pending, what is the mechanism for the attainment of that status?

In very Truth GiGi; Jesus had the power & authority over both His time of death & of those who would take His Life. Yet, there would be some who would argue, 'if that were the case, then God would have no warrant against those who were involved in His Son's death as this was God's Plan & these men merely fulfilled it.'

I feel that if God compelled men towards an act (good or bad), or they were merely puppets in His Hands, then that could be true. But men, out of their own wicked hearts & schemes, remain fully guilty for their actions in spite of God's Plans & Foreknowledge of their actions. Thank you.

Good Morning Chris,

Agreed. I also recall that Jesus said that He lays down His life and He will take it up again and at the last it is said He gave up His Spirit. so, it seems that men did put Jesus to death, but He had to allow it to occur because he is the Resurrection and the Life. he had control of whether He would die or not and relinquished His life on the cross for us to, as you said, be the only means of a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Hi Barb, I don't think it must be one or the other.

The Bible is full of metaphors to explain things like our relationship to God. I see T. Levis shared scriptures for "sons", so I'll share different ones:

Be like children:

Matthew 18:3

Romans 8:17

Galatians 4:6

Be people and sheep:

Psalms 100:3

John 10:11

Jeremiah 50:6

We're clay:

Isaiah 64:8

We're branches:

John 15:5

We're salt:

Matthew 5:13

I'm sure there's more.

Hello Dorothy. No, God did not kill Jesus. Rather, the Romans put Jesus to the Cross to die & Pilate was urged to do so by the demands from the Jews (see Matthew chapter 27 & particularly verse 23). Both the Romans & Jews remain culpable for Jesus' Death.

But God, in His Wisdom & Plan to bring forth a Son to the end that He should lay down His Life for all sinners, had planned for this, for He knew that only He could exact the correct penalty for redeeming sinful man. The Apostle Peter in his messge declared in Acts 2:22,23, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Jesus' Death was planned for in eternity past because of God's foreknowledge & Will of God - God planned it for our sakes, but men took it into their own hands to take Jesus' Life. Then, did God force men to kill His Son? No. God knew His Son would be killed, but those men fulfilled their own anger & raging passion & were wholly responsible for Jesus' Death. The Old Testament Scriptures also spoke of Jesus' future Death: Psalm 22:15-18; Isaiah chapter 53; Daniel 9:26. Man is always responsible for his own actions & acts of sin, for by them he will be judged & condemned.

John 10:17,18, Titus 2:13-15, Mark 14:8,18,21,41, Matthew 16:21,

Isaiah 53, John 3:15-17,

Matthew 26:46- keep reading through, Matthew 27, full chapter , Mark 14:42-72 through- Mark 15, whole chapter,

Hopefully these are helpful

2Corinthians 6:18,

Romans 8:14, Philippians 2:15, 1John 3:2,

Luke 8:48, 1Peter 3:6, Acts 2:17,

Hopefully these are helpful

Did God kill Jesus?

The Holiness of God.

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty ( Rev. 4:8). This aspect of the Lord which should characterize our daily praise was a topic a friend of mine from out of town who I'm visiting next week brought up. He; as I am is highly supportive of the "grace gospel" (i.e. God's sovereign plan of election giving no credit toward man for any of his own righteousness in being saved). It is true; however that many of our houses of worship are more caught up in an academic exercise when it comes to the "institutes of Calvin" than spending a time worshipping a Holy God who condescended to save any worms like me. ( Job 25:6). He; who is the creator of all things is above all; so that even the stars are impure in His sight ( Job 25:5).

There are truly heavenly joys that we cannot comprehend now. ( Psalm 16:11). Everyone; from Daniel and Isaiah and Ezekiel in the O.T. and John in Revelation fall in awe and wonder at His presence. It is a true statement that God is love ( 1 John 4:8); but we need to view this in light of 1 Cor. 13:4-8. We must; therefore also see His grace along with His judgments in light of His righteousness; and eternal omnipotence as the King of Kings; Lord of Lords. God does not change; and if we remain in Him we shall never be moved (see Proverbs 10:30). Heaven and earth will perish before one "jot and tittle" of the law perish ( Matthew 5:18). Since this is New Testament; surely this refers to the true meaning of the law and the motives of our hearts.

May we; although flawed be characterized by a unique reverence for God so we can be known as just men ( Matthew 1:19). To be salt and light; we must be distinct from the world and through the fear of the Lord comes the beginning of understanding ( Prov. 1:7; 9:10; etal). If we put to death the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit ( Colossians 3:5; Romans 8:13) then we can let His Spirit transform us ( Romans 12:2). Let us begin each day with praise. Agape; Rich P