Discuss Romans 8 Page 5

Hi Gasman. Yours are good questions & often very debatable when considering the construct of man & the Work of the Holy Spirit within Him or even, upon Him. Firstly, we do understand from the Word, that we are tripartite beings (i.e. composed of soul, spirit & body): 1 Thessalonians 5:23. The 'body' aspect we know, but it can be difficult to correctly understand the difference between the soul & spirit. So, if we take it as the soul being our mental, emotive powers & the spirit being the 'life force', all given by God so that can be living creatures able to experience all that God has given us & of course, our return of worship & thanks to our Creator, then we can somewhat understand how God's Spirit connects with us.

Only when a person has been born again by God's Spirit ( John 3:3), can that person be in a new revived position of receiving & giving communication to our Heavenly Father. God sends His Spirit to be with us & in us ( John 14:17), but His Spirit doesn't replace our spirit, nor does He overrule us to the extent that we cease to think & behave as ordinary people. So, when He ministers to us (whether in decision-making, personal conduct, in worship, in understanding the Word, etc.), it becomes our choice as to whether we allow His gentle & precise ministry to influence us or not. Sadly, we often allow carnal thoughts or pre-conceived ideas or beliefs to take precedent over His, much to our detriment. But when we are truly walking (& worshiping in the Spirit) - Galatians 5:16,25 - then we will truly know His Peace, that which 'surpasses all our understanding & inclinations' ( Philippians 4:7), joyfully allowing Him to lead us, especially in worship & in faith, for all we experience.

Your questions 'to which spirit'? Our spirit is never laid aside in the functioning of man - our faculties are always in force. It is how much we allow the Holy Spirit to take control in our lives, our worship, even 'wisdom in allowing others into our lives' ( Romans 8:1-28).

The mercy of God

"It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not." ( Lamentations 3:22)

...and in the wilderness where you saw how the LORD your God carried you, as a man carries his son, in all the way that you went until you came to this place.' ( Deuteronomy 1:31)

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

The mercy of God and His lovingkindness are something that never pass; or grow old. It is something to daily praise Him for no matter what the circumstances as we know that we shall indeed be in His presence someday; and out of these old bodies whether by Rapture or Resurrection. He has secured us for all eternity. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. ( Psalm 103:12). As believers he has replaced our heart of stone with a heart of flesh ( Ezekiel 36:26). His children are sanctified and inevitably glorified ( Romans 8:30). Whether we consider the Israelites physically delivered from Egypt's bondage to the Promised Land; or our own delivery from the earth to heaven the Spirit seals believers with this "down payment" ( Eph. 1:13).

WORD OF WARNING

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. ( Matt. 5:45).

This verse is related to previous ones speaking of loving our enemies as part of the Sermon on the Mount. Christ shared close ties with Judas Iscariot; according to Psalm 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." The unregenerate enjoy for a time the creation in this life but attribute their blessings to what they consider the "goodness" of their heart; their accomplishments; merits; accolades etc. See Ecclesiastes 8:11 for a warning on delayed judgment; also see Galatians 6:7.

DEATH TO SELF: A THOROUGH ANALYSIS

Your will above all else, my purpose remains

The art of losing myself in bringing you praise

Phillips Craig and Dean from the song From the Inside Out (Fearless Album)

Proverbs 16:9 shows that man makes plans but the Lord orders his steps. Our best attempts at determining what is right even as Christians can't possibly take into account the bad things that happen and just how the Lord will use those things for our good for those who love God and are called according to His purposes ( Romans 8:28). Time and again the Lord has shown in scripture as well as today that martyrs ultimately serve a greater purpose; it such as Jim Elliot martyred with his friends in the jungle and the efforts of his wife and others afterwards with the resulting fruit of their efforts in converts.

Dying to self may or may not demand a complete change in trajectory as to our vocation or living situation. God makes it clear that those married to unbelievers are not to depart unless forced by the other person. We are also to work heartily unto the Lord ( Col. 3:23-24) and in fact; if we don't work we don't eat ( 2 Thessalonians 3:10). Luke 10:7 shows how the workman is worthy of his hire at least in terms of ministry but Paul supplemented support through tentmaking as to not be a burden to others. Obviously; as with the woman caught in adultery ( John 8:1-11) there had to be an end to sin therefore a radical change in lifestyle and by default cutting off many social ties. Whether we can be a witness or former associates post conversion are a detriment is based on several factors in individual situations. Clearly any criminal sources of income have to be ended; and we should make restitution whenever possible for those we have offended (see Ephesians 4:28; implied in doing good with what is earned).

As to our affections being set on things above ( Colossians 3:3-10) it is an ongoing process. As an onion each layer of self is peeled away.

Hi Antypas

The verses you stated from Jeremiah are also used by Paul in Hebrews 9:8-12. Paul considers this new covenant to Israel that Jeremiah is taking about is the New Testament that God introduced firstly to Hebrews and then to the rest of the world. But Jews didn't receive Jesus, and consequently God, so their House was left abandoned by God. Until when? Until they repend for crucifying Jesus and ask for Him. When is this going to occur? At the very end. Paul in Rom 11:25-27 says that they will be saved after the fullness of the nations will come in (the salvation).

So who are the elect now? Romans 8:30-32,

"30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth."

Please pay attention to the above verse 33.

God's intention when creating the Hebrew nation through Abraham was not to have a superior race than the rest who will conquer the world. His aim is to create a nation which will preserve the faith to the true God, through which at the proper time the Savior would erect to sacrifice Himself for the salvation of all people. In God's mind was the whole mankind not just a race.

So He established the church on Pentecost

Ephessians 2:14-17,

"14For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jews and gentiles) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

GBU"

Head vs heart knowledge (continued)

Continuing with the thought on deliverance; there are verses which state we are not to be hasty in laying on of hands with someone ( 1 Tim. 5:22). Obviously; the extended conversations with demons that are almost always on camera are not needed most of the time based on how Christ operated. It is often obvious this is for entertainment value; and certainly isn't helpful if someone is in need of deliverance to toy with the demons in them or keep them waiting. It is rare but not unheard of to see a person who is going through great grief be prayed for that is NOT possessed; or perhaps just oppressed.

If we look at the example of the parable of the seed and sower in Matthew 13:20 we see immediate joy at the Word without a root. Nonetheless we are to confess with our mouth AND believe in our heart that Christ is Lord; both mind and soul are involved. ( Romans 10:9). Since our heart is deceitful ( Jeremiah 17:9) above all things and desperately wicked; we need a new heart as Ezekiel 36:26 states. I have pointed out before that unless we realize that we are being delivered from an enmity with God we aren't going to be drawn toward Christ; we are going to shrink back and eventually fall away. ( Romans 8:7 as well as in many other passages!) BUT; as with anything else joy is the second attribute of good fruit that the Spirit MUST begin to place in our souls after love as the first ( Gal. 5:22). Note that the THIRD attribute is peace; so if we are truly saved we start to overcome fear; on the other hand there is no peace for the wicked. ( Isaiah 48:22; and other parts of Isaiah and Psalms; etc.)

Part of maturity in Christ is knowing the difference between spiritual fruit and our emotions. Seeing Paul's example of joy in extreme suffering certainly is a good example of this as well as Christ's love for us that He would suffer as He did to fulfill the Father's will.

Fellowship should balance mind and heart worship rightly

Promises for believers

For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him (Phillipians 1:29). Acts 5:41 is in a similar vein; namely being thankful for being worthy to be persecuted in His name; which is promised for all true believers. ( 2 Tim. 3:12; etal). The promise of being chastised if we are a true child of God and other sufferings aren't exactly the first thing we focus on

when it comes to God's promises. But of course if we consider these hard sayings first; we can learn to appreciate the more pleasurable promises in a greater way.

The opposite is true of course; in light of Hebrews 11:25. Sin runs its course of earthly pleasures; which lead up to eternal condemnation. For God's children; however there are pleasures evermore in His right hand ( Psalm 16:11). The fullness of life is also mentioned in that verse which corresponds with John 10:10 in living life to the full. Food and clothing are promised in the Gospels ( Matt. 6:25); (compare with 1 Kings 17:6 where the ravens brought Elijah food). Notice that shelter or a place to rest His head is mentioned as lacking in Matthew 8:20; which made some turn away from following Him. Surely Christ Himself did stay in peoples' homes for short interludes; but He also spent many nights on mountains in prayer; or sleeping on a boat.

Much prayer; of course seems to be edifying when focused on fulfilling the Great Commission. God states in Isaiah 55:11; that His word will not go out void; but accomplish His purposes. If we are doing His work; then we can be sure to reap what we sow; in terms of reward (see Psalm 126:5). Heavenly treasures are a promise for those who are serving out of a pure heart (see 2 Timothy 4:7-8). Therefore; the end ouf our sufferings in Christ will bring eternal glory that outweighs anything on earth. (see Romans 8:18). 2 Corinthians 4:17-18 also discusses "momentary afflictions" that don't compare to heavenly bliss.

To Plaintalk, I say this in response.

You quote Job 39:12 and you assign the "seed" to being the word of God. What you are doing is 'spiritualising' a statement of God to Job that was a literal question being put to Job by God that required from Job a literal answer. As Job had none aren't you being somewhat presumptuous here in your claims as to what the seed and the barn mean? An illustration of God's questioning of Job is shown in the verses below:

Job 39:1 "Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth [their offspring]? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? 2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil [their gestation]? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?"

Anyone can spiritualise scripture to make it say whatever they want it to say - but it doesn't mean that it is true. Therefore, I reject what you say about this verse.

In regards to your view on John 12:24, although Jesus compares Himself to a grain of wheat as you say, His death was aimed to bring "many sons to glory" ( Hebrews 2:10) through the new birth ( John 3:3-8). Jesus could not establish a glorious church on Earth through His people unless He died and was glorified ( John 7:37-39; Acts 2:33; Eph. 1). Christians today are expected to die as Christ did - but NOT in the physical sense but in the spiritual sense:

- In this, we are to crucify our 'Old Man' nature until "he" is DEAD - Romans 6:6.-

- If we haven't, then spiritually speaking, God sees us as "walking in the flesh" ( Romans 8:1, 7).

However, if we are truly "born-again", we will share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with others so as to bring more lost souls into God's kingdom. By doing this, we (as being that "corn of wheat) will then "...bringeth forth much fruit" - meaning, the lost souls into God's kingdom through personal evangelism, "...some [corns'] an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear!" ( Matt 13:3-9).

That's how I see it, Plaintalk.

With respect One eighty, you are taking your 'rationale' too far away from what has been presented to you by both others here and me.

I believe Richard H Priday provided another good example of answering your question where he said:

"God did create hell as well; but originally it was meant for the Devil and his angels. ( Matt. 25:41). Clearly; men enter in there because they are following their master; namely Satan rather than God. Therefore; all things work out for the good for those who love God ( Romans 8:28); but conversely; there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; other passages)."

For you to reject these Bible-based 'Contrasts' depicted in the Bible to then ask questions like:

- Would you agree that whenever Light enters darkness, the darkness is abolished?

- If yes, then if God is darkness as He is Light, then He must be capable of abolishing Himself.

- Light abolishes darkness merely by showing us the darkness is not there. If this is true and God is responsible and the Source for both Light and darkness, then He would literally abolish Himself into non existence.

COMMENT: It seems your desire is to enter into "...foolish questions...and contentions" that I am not prepared to enter into on the following basis:

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." ( Titus 3:9)

Sorry, One eighty, but I m trying to be helpful here and not offensive.

There are verses where it says that God dwells in thick clouds; i.e. a form of darkness. ( 1 Kings 8:12; also see Psalm 97:2). Darkness in the physical realm is simply the opposite of light. We could say in terms of evil that calamity is created by God for His purposes; although the Lord allows evil spirits to have some authority in that situation (such as the trials with Job). As with Job; the Tribulation also is predetermined to be a time of greater evil than has ever occurred before; or will ever be afterwards. ( Matt. 24:21). Such a trial can be escaped ( Rev. 3:10) by those who are walking in the Spirit as Jesus declared to the Philadelphia church. Those who will endure the Tribulation will be given the strength to overcome; and all those NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast ( Rev. 17:8). In short; physical death represents overcoming; while preserving one's life causes one to ultimately lose it; in terms of eternal life ( John 12:25). This means as a believer it makes sense to "die daily" ( 1 Cor 15:31) which opposes the flesh which desires the opposite.

God did create hell as well; but originally it was meant for the Devil and his angels. ( Matt. 25:41). Clearly; men enter in there because they are following their master; namely Satan rather than God. Therefore; all things work out for the good for those who love God ( Romans 8:28); but conversely; there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; other passages).

Those who truly know Christ have already gone from darkness into light ( 1 Peter 2:9; etal). We also are able to escape any of the second death ( Rev. 20:7). It is in men's hearts where the god of this world has blinded them; not in the physical realm at this time ( 2 Cor. 4:4). Therefore the darkness of spiritual blindness is basically the essence of evil; so in that sense if we aren't careful what we consider light is really darkness ( Luke 11:35).

Deuteronomy 29:29 shows how we can't fathom God's hidden counsel.

A general study on a day in the life of Christ

In more careful investigation of scripture; it appears that there are accounts that clearly delineate happenings that occur within a 24 hour day; and others that continue a narrative that may or may not encompass multiple days or perhaps longer periods of time. I thought therefore that a general study of the variety of challenges the Lord faced constantly; along with the spiritual giftings of all types apparent to be active simultaneously ( Colossians 2:9) would be interesting as He had all the "fullness of the Godhead bodily."

His example; therefore as our High Priest ( Heb. 7:25; etc) means that we can live by His example and thus be "imitators of Christ" ( 1 Cor. 11:1). This; of course is easier said than done; impossible in fact in our own efforts ( John 15:5).

Paul; of course is a great; if not THE penultimate example of a surrendered life; and in many ways mirrors Christ in self sacrificial love and service to the church; through many trials; persecutions; and sufferings. These studies should convince anyone who isn't in a coma that today's mushy view of Christ as embodying some sort of feel good; crowd pleasing charisma that everyone loved is far off from reality. This study is greatly challenging to myself; and I assume anyone reading these scriptures as to what is truly required to be His Disciple. Ultimately; I believe this will be a characteristic of every true believer in some aspects; but in reality few surrender their lives enough to truly live in this manner. It is more than an inconvenient truth; the challenges Christ gives to all His followers but of course is as process in some ways as well. The Spirit sanctifies us; conforming us into His image ( Romans 8:29). Philippians 4:1 and some other verses shows us how His church was Paul's crown. This makes our rewards to be based on building up brothers and sisters in the Lord; and to focus attention there keeps us from focusing on our own issues.

Yes, Frankie J., I see we understand Romans 8:4 differently. The "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" to me means, that where the letter of the Law failed in that it couldn't produce righteousness in one's life, now we who live by the Spirit & not by the Law, will have the full & clear meaning & application of that Law placed into our hearts. How we respond to the Holy Spirit Who has placed the WHOLE Law (i.e. the Law that reveals righteousness) in our hearts is another matter about obedience. Whether or not we obey Him still does not deter from the fact that the righteousness contained within the Law has been given to us.

My not using 'abrogated' was intentional & not sneaky, as I try not to overuse words & phrases - yet the meaning should remain the same. Very perceptive of you to notice this.

And for the rest of your comments, I don't think I can adequately address them, as I note that you have not understood what I've said, hence you believe that I am "speaking from both sides of my mouth". And that's fine. I think if you've followed my other posts even from years ago, then the message & work of the Cross & the liberty we can enjoy as believers by life in the Holy Spirit, brings no contradiction or conflict. Where there can be conflict, is when I stand against an adherence to a Law never designed to give life, where the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit is never measured against the futility & temporariness of that Old Law, & when any claim of attaining a sinless life in the present is impossible in the light of the Scriptures, are raised.

And so with your closing words, I think that our understanding of God's Word in relation to these subjects at least, shows that in spite of the many Scriptures we've looked at, our understanding will always be at variance, & only further Light from the Spirit can reveal more & impress it upon our hearts. So God bless you Frankie J & I'll close this off here, as our writing has now drifted too far apart.

New Covenant vs Old Covenant.

When comparing the two I believe the difference is in fruit barring.

This is something that can only be done by being connected to the genuine vine. John 15:1-5.

We can do nothing without Christ.

These verses and many others is tied to this "working of the Holyspirit."

Romans 6:5-10.

Romans 8:11.

This is the life giving spirit that we get once we truly believe.

This is baptism!

This is Christ in us, and we in him.

Jesus said that those who abide in Him will bear much fruit. That fruit is more than ministry results, it is also the evidence of a life lived in God.

IF WE'RE CONNECTED TO THE VINE WE WILL BARE FRUIT!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

This is what the natural man can not do and what the OLD COVENANT couldn't produce.

Galatians 5:17-18 says; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

BUT IF YE BE LED OF THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW"

Also see.

Matthew 7:18.

Salvation is inward. It's a new heart that CAUSES you to produce fruit.

It's not forced by command.

Christ put his life giving Holyspirit IN you, and that "Holyspirit in you" won't turn you from him.

It would be turning him from himself.

Again; This is Christ in you, and we in him.

Ephesians 4:30 is something the law and the Old covenant couldn't do. See; " Galatians 5:17-18"

Now what you do, it is he that works in you! Philippians 2:13.

By fruit we shall know them and by it, we can examine ourselves also.

We can use Galatians 5:19-26 as a guide.

Ephesians 4:1-16 is what every Christian should keep by his side.

God bless.

Page 2. David0921.

1 John 2:3-5: speaks of keeping Jesus' Commandments, not specifically the Ten Commandments (there is a clear difference between them). Psalm 119: the Laws, Precepts, Judgements, etc. given to Israel; not to those in Christ Jesus.

"How do I determine what is sin and what is not?" The Holy Spirit Who resides in my life instructs me in all things I need to know or be alerted to: of ALL of God's Laws, of where I slip up, of things just not quite right that can be regarded as sin ( John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 4:30). The Decalogue in & of itself falls far short of what God would require of me. In other words, I would rather be subservient & obedient to the Spirit than to the Letter of the Law. And when I fail Him, I am gently instructed & helped to learn & follow His Path.

"So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today", I certainly don't mean the Truth contained therein, including all other Laws, whether Israel or Gentile-specific, but I refer to the purpose of the Decalogue, as a whole package of Laws for Israel that demanded obedience or punishment (including obedience to the 4th Commandment).

This type of Law has no bearing on those now IN CHRIST, who have been delivered from that Law of sin & death ( Romans 7:6; Romans 8:2). If there was no Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, then yes, we must grab onto & perform all the laws we can find in God's Word & hope for the best in the Judgement. But the believer's salvation is secure because it is all of God (His Great Plan), all of Jesus (His Great Sacrifice) and of His Spirit (His Great Ministry), Who will 'present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy'. My obedience & confidence rests only in the Person of the Godhead, enjoying the liberty of serving Him as He directs & not conforming to a set of rules that was prescribed to judgement & death.

Page 1.

Thank you GiGi - I appreciated your insight into those Scriptures that I find invaluable in any discussion as we've been having here.

I can't disagree with what you've shared, as I too, see that all of God's Laws are holy, special, & pertinent to knowing the Will of God & pleasing Him by following them. I also understand the passages you shared, viz Romans 7:22,23 & Romans 8:1-5, in a similar way as you, except to highlight these points:

a. In Romans chap 8: "the law of sin & death" (v2), I don't see it as simply as being freed from "the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God". This is certainly true that the witness of our new lives in Christ is evidence of no longer standing condemned before God. But Paul writing, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh", strongly suggests that "what the law could not do" by its weakness (inability) in its successful working in sinful flesh, refers directly to the Decalogue, which really is the Law of sin & death, or we can read it as 'the Law that reveals sin & ultimately leads to death'.

After we have been freed from the limitations & constraints of such a Law, the righteousness that is contained in that Law (v4), might yet be fulfilled in us. And how is this possible? Only by the Spirit's application & enabling us to perform it in our lives. On its own, the Law was totally incapable of doing this - it wasn't given for that purpose - just to show sin & its severity & permanence. The Israelite who truly loved God & desired to please Him would have been tormented by the magnitude of his sins, as the Law in simple terms showed him, & if it were not for those sacrifices proving that God still heard their cries & promised to cover their sins for that time, the Israelite would have found no relief at all. Onto Page 2.

Numbers 21:8.....God tells Moses that he wd have to make a bronze Serpent and put him on a pole and when someone was bitten they wd have to behold the Bronze Serpent....Is this not a picture of the Church that gets bit sometimes but if we behold the lamb of God that taketh away the Sin of the world.....Our snake bite is not fatal....Jesus said that as Moses lifted up a Serpent in the wilderness Even so must the son of man be lifted up..... John 3:14.....What Moses did in the wilderness with that bronze Serpent equates to what God did with the lamb of God.....We are still in the wilderness.....We have not got to the Promise land yet we are still in the wilderness of Sin and sometimes we get bit....But here is Romans 8:2.....The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made free from the law of snake bite and death......Sin and death.....Thats y Jesus is saying Even as Moses lifted up a serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up.....Jesus answers to the bronze Serpent.....But now under this New Covenant we behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.....What Moses did in the wilderness with that bronze serpent made Israel free FROM the law of SNAKE BITE AND DEATH.....But what Jesus did at Calvary by his blood is gonna make Humanity free from Sin and death...As John said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....The manchild which is the H.G. is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and Judgement and Righteousness.....Which is the result of this New Covenant the blood of the lamb from Calvary.....Thats y Jeremiah saw all the world in travail and Child birth Jere 30:6 ...The Children are spirits an Israel of God....Thats y it is saying a time of Jacobs troubles impling an Israel of God...Simply b/c the H.G. is that Israel of God.....That Heavenly Jacob the 3 rd person.....Ya gotta realize that Jesus sows a greater seed then Abraham......A heavenly seed impling spirits...Born of the spirit is spirit.

Hello Chris,

This is an interesting thread that has taken many turns already. I just want to speak to what Paul refers to as the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2. In reading verses 1-5 I see that Paul is speaking of several things.

He is speaking of the freeing of us by the Holy Spirit from the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God. It does not say that we are freed from the Holy Law, but of the condemnation it pronounces upon us when we sin.

He speaks of the Holy Spirit in us causes us to walk according to the will of the Spirit and to not walk according to the sinful nature. (which he calls "the flesh"). So when we yield to the work of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to do what God wills, which would be doing what God has determined to be pure and moral (as the 10 commandments teach us what this is).

Paul goes on to say that the Holy Sprit teaches us the law that gives life (forgiveness, no condemnation, grace, eternal life, in and through Christ Jesus). This new life frees us from the law of sin and death. I understand the law of sin and death to be the aspect of God's holy judgment that always brings death to all who sin rather than speaking of the holy Law of God which shows us God's moral will.

Then in verse 3 he says that what the law could not do, (the holy commands of God could not make us righteous because we will break them whenever we sin, which brings the judgement of sin and death to all who sin). Our sinful nature makes it so that we cannot be perfectly righteous perfectly and always doing what is right according to God's will and law. The Law of God cannot make us righteous nor clear us of our sin, nor remove the condemnation for our sinning against it. It can only bring condemnation upon every person because none of us keep it wholly and perfectly all the time. We cannot do this. And the Law cannot save us.

see Part 2

Thank you for your responses to those Scriptures, Bro. Dan. I guess we will have to leave off interpreting those Scriptures, indeed all that speak of the Law, since we'll never come to agreement of which Law, its timing & purposes, that is being referred to.

But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).

And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.

Hi Chris,

Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.

Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.

Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.

And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.

Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.

GBU

Hi Giannis,

I appreciate your feedback, and all of your input. Sorry for the late reply, The 2 posts that I deleted, (1) to you, and (1) to Chris was by accident. I could not see the 2 posts in the thread but could see them in my comments listed as waiting. It had been many hours so I thought I would copy those posts and then delete - and repost. In the process I lost the original posts, so I'm beginning to formulate new replies to repost. So I'm getting backed up a bit. I reposted to Chris, and now here for you. GiGi is also in queue.

For the most part I believe we are in agreement on most issues surrounding the ceremonial laws which have faded away, and God's 10 Commandments/moral laws are still in affect for Christians today. Jesus said as much, and even emphasized how intricate these laws are Matt 5:28 to open are eyes so that we can be very aware of our sin, and to repent, and refrain from our sin.

Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind per the New Covenant.

So in summary; I believe that a saved Christian will be following and applying God's Commandments in their lives via the conviction of God's Holy Spirit.

GBU

Thanks Bro. Dan for re-posting that previous comment. Looking at it more closely, these are my observances/responses.

Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.

Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).

Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.

And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.

As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU

I read your latest response to mine but see that it has disappeared. But I would state that I have never put the Decalogue or any of the Commandments of God on an inferior level or lacking in Truth & with the full authority of God. That is never in question, even as Paul wrote in Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." And then as he continues in that chapter, that the Law, that was "good", was meant to show the exceeding sinfulness of his corrupt nature. He wouldn't have seen this in such light as a good devout Pharisee (i.e. such words could never come out his mouth); but now as one who has experienced re-birth, he can say 'that my eyes are opened to see what the purpose of that Law was'. Israel then, as now, cannot see what Paul saw; their obedience to the Laws before them (at least by the devout amongst them today), are what they expect to carry them through to blessing & eternity.

Therefore, I raised Romans 8:1-4 for your consideration. I was hoping in your comment to me, you would also refer to this very telling portion of Scripture that must apply to & affect every true believer, cutting deep into the heart. Again, Paul stated that the Law was limited in what it could achieve. Their words & one's diligent obedience to them could never give a person cleansing or the sure hope of eternal life - if it could, then Jesus should not have suffered & died. The Law failed miserably, as far as snatching the sinner from judgement. The Law was good & came in the Power of God but its purpose was limited in regards to salvation. Only through Jesus Christ & His Gift of the Holy Spirit could the "righteousness of the Law" be applied & fulfilled in the believer. Should then the believer go back & hang onto that Law, when the Law given by the Spirit, giving life in Christ Jesus, frees a sinner from a Law that only gave death? Sabbath-keeping can only be by choice - never by commandment & never to be imposed upon another.

Thanks Bro. Dan. We've been here before. So "why do so many Christians make such a big deal about following God's Commands." Can't answer for others, but I see that all of God's Commands (whether the Decalogue, or the myriad of other Laws & regulations), applied only to the Jews - for their instruction & performance. None of that applied to me as a Gentile. And none of those laws given to Israel are expected to be recognized by Gentiles. If Jesus didn't come & give His Life to redeem us to God, then as a Gentile hearing of such Laws that God required obedience, might place on me some conviction & responsibility to keep them so as to appease/please the God of Israel.

So the Decalogue, for example, was given to a specific people for a specific purpose. If I relied only on it to give me finite rules for obedience, then I would fail God. If the command said, "Thou shalt not kill" & I obeyed it & never murdered, then I could say that I had fully kept that commandment. And that is how Israel would have understood it. But Jesus then came on the scene & taught His disciples what 'murder' meant ( Matthew 5:21-24). So here we now have that connection between the old Law that only condemned & brought death ( Romans 7:4-6) & now the Deliverer, through His Sacrifice, Who has "delivered us from the lawthat we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".

If one believes that the Decalogue is still binding, that's their choice. But my belief is that those in Christ (of Jew & Gentile) are far beyond the Decalogue & are now indwelt & led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:1-4), that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us". My reference can never be to the Decalogue, only to the Holy Spirit who interprets the whole Law, pertaining to life & godly living, helping me to obey & giving power to live it - which the Old Law could never do. I ask, 'why should I go to a system that could never give life, or even syncretize it with the Law of the Spirit'?

S Spencer on the last week.

Part 2

2 To make an end of sins (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law). The verb in the Hebrew text translated as "put an end to" can mean "to seal up". The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Psalm 32:1-2 Matthew 1:21 John 1:29 Romans 8:3 1 Corinthians 15:3 Hebrews 10:8-11 1 John 3:5 Revelation 16:15.

Is there still sin today? Yes. Will there still be sin and death after Jesus's second coming? Yes. Even during the 1000 years, there will be sin and death until all is made new Rev. 21:1-4 but through Jesus, they are covered and sealed, Rev. 16:15

3 To make reconciliation for iniquity (Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement, iniquity is guilt, crookedness, perverseness, that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion, in the dark. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

The word reconcile means to bring back to a former state of harmony Jesus reconciled both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross and now through Jesus we both Jew and Gentile have access by one Spirit unto the Father no more strangers or foreigners but fellow citizens. Making reconciliation for iniquity concerns our involvement in the work of salvation.

4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting, no end, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving-kindness, in conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will, fair and balanced. Isaiah 61:10-11 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 1 Peter 2:24.

See Part 3

Hello, GiGi

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Thank you for your reply, I really enjoyed your post and hearing from you.



The subject is very profound evidently, however, as Paul Apostle did say, "our faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of GOD; we speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory- 1 Corinthians 2:5&7. Our Lord JESUS promised saying: Unto every one that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance: ...

I like to meditate deeply in the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD( John 1:1), and to deceipher the biblical enigmas. The psalmist said: I will bend my ear to a parable, with a lyre(harp) I will solve my riddle.

In my view, Genesis is a GOD's Plan of RESTORATION of all things( Acts 3:18-26), revealed to Moses around 2500 years after Adam, or after two and half GOD's Days working in His creation. By the way, around 4000 years after Adam(end of fourth Day), our GOD was still working:JESUS, the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD, said:My Father worketh hitherto, and I work- John 5:17KJV. What was the work of JESUS? To fulfill LITERALLY Gen.1:26-27:

26 And GOD said, Let US make man(MANY) in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing UPON the earth.---> By the way, compare with Revelation 11:15 to 18 Here, our Lord JESUS still was in the BOSOM of the Father- John 1:18The question, you know, is that our GOD "calleth those things which be not as though they were"- Romans 4:17. Only now has the sixth GOD's Day arrived, so, only from now on will Genesis 1:26-27 be fulfilled LITERALLY( Luke 20:35-36) AS A PROPHECY. Romans 8:18-25 explain better. In my understand, Adam is a human gender.

Sister GiGi:

I am going to scold you a little, but purely in LOVE.

You say things; but I don't think, you believe what you say is relevant for us in the present.

You said; and what you said is true, WE, as BELIEVERS, have been (a completed work) DELIVERED from SIN and DEATH; yet you don't believe what you say, if we HAVE BEEN DELIVERED, then it's not the future, BUT NOW.

You said Adam and Eve were sinless; if they were sinless, they would not have sinned.

Romans 8:29 For the creature WAS MADE (not created) subject to VANITY .... all creation from Adam WAS MADE subject to vanity, just a little enticement and they SIN ....

The RESURRECTION CREATED man in the image of God, as in Adam (shadow of Christ) all men DIE, and all men are made ALIVE by the Spirit of resurrection; sin and death were DESTROYED, on the cross; ONLY CHRIST arose, and we AS JOINT HEIRS, the image of Christ, predestinated from the foundations of the world.

I am the FIRST (of creation, the work of the cross) and I am the LAST of creation; creation was RAISED as joint HEIRS.

Ephesians 4:4 .... one body (Christ) .... one Spirit ....

Ephesians 4:6 ..... one God ....and Father of all (including Christ) ...... above ALL .... through ALL .... IN YOU ALL ...

.... this mystery .... Christ in you ..... hid from the ages

God bless you!

Paul Apostle in his deep spiritual wisdom, wrote in his epistle to the Church of Rome, saying: Romans 8:18 to 21KJV

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be REVEALED in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the MANIFESTATION of the sons of GOD. (When? In this current millennium.)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of GOD.

Ant to the Church of Corinthians, Paul wrote saying: 1 Corinthians 15:51 to 55KJV

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump( Revelation 11:15 to 18): for the Trumpet shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED. (How? Acording Luke 20:35-36KJV combined with Acts 3:19-21)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

May our Lrd GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

Amen

Yes Adam, these are a few important verses that I believe prove that a repentant sinner, seeking forgiveness & then being born again by God's Spirit, can be assured of salvation now & can never be lost. That the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer & perseveres with him/her to keep them saved & to warn & bring back those who fail in faith. Those who don't have assurance of salvation, probably are not familiar with the Scriptures, or have been taught that only perseverance & abiding by God's Commandments can they be saved, at least have any chance of getting approval at that final judgement day, or never been truly saved in the first place. Whereas, the one born again of God's Spirit will be given power to persevere & keep ALL of God's Commandments, & the avenue of repentance is there so that restitution & joy in a faithful God will be restored.

Ephesians 1:4,5 (God's choosing & predestining; His elect)

Ephesians 1:13,14 (Gift of the Holy Spirit; His Sealing & Guarantee till final redemption/reception of His child)

1 John 5:13 (we know that Eternal Life is our possession, not hoped for)

Romans 8:9,15,29,30,38,39 (nothing will separate us from God's Love - not from outside, nor from within, for we are His & will be led by His Spirit continually)

Nope, Frankie,

As long as we live in this mortal life we will have the sinful nature in us even though, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, too. And the Holy Spirit wars against the sinful nature all of our mortal lives, increasingly winning the victory over our sinfulness as He sanctifies us bit by bit, from glory to glory ( 2Cor. 3:17-18; Romans 7:13-25 as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to put to death the works of the sinful nature ( Romans 8:12-13).

It will be only in the life to come when we have put of mortality and the corrupt sinful nature due to the resurrection of our bodies to immortality and in corruptibility will we be freed from the death sentence brought on us by the sin of Adam and our own sin and our sinful nature died when we died physically, when we will enter into the eternal state perfect, glorified, and completely separated from sin and any sinful inclination forever. Hallelujah!

In this life we are to fight the good fight of faith in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and through His resurrection. It is in this life that we are to fight against our sinful nature by walking according to the Holy Spirit who is at work empowering us to obey God and to will and do the will of God. We will never come to a point of perfection in this life because the sinful nature continues in us until our last breath. But we can grow and mature in holiness as we surrender to the lead of the Holy Spirit who teaches us through the Scriptures as to how we are to live in each moment.

Brother David0921:

All the saints (elders) in the old testament died a physical death; because Christ, the promised SEED had not yet COME to give ALL immortal life by his resurrection.

Ezekiel 18:4 .... the SOUL that sinneth it shall DIE .....the soul goes to the grave .....

The promise in both the Old and New Testament has always been the promise of eternal live, destroying the enemy of man, DEATH.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (the saints in the Old testament), having obtained a good report through faith (believing in the coming messiah to deliver them from death), RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE.

Hebrews 11:40 For God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (resurrected with Christ, Christ ONLY is perfect and hath immortality dwelling in the light .... 1 Timothy 6:16)

Matthew 27:52-53

All creation was given immortality at the same time: when Christ was resurrected; Christ only was resurrected, creating a NEW CREATION.

Revelation 21:5 ... Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW ....

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in CHRIST (Christ ONLY was resurrected), he is a NEW creature: old things have passed away, Behold, all things have become NEW.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (God foreknew all creation), he did also PREDESTINATE (by Christ resurrection) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN (Christ ONLY arose) of many brethren (CHRISTians).

God bless YOU!

I read the question? about our meeting with Jesus outside the City. What I find feasible is where the mention of the Jews which went to Jesus, left the city for Him outside. I find this is referring to our Salvation is by leaving the "Law" which was in effect in the time before Jesus resurrected to defeat Death. But, once He overcame Death by fulfilling the Law, as Paul has said before, The Law was written for man, by man. so it is not effective upon us. Now we have the New Laws which Jesus presented.

Romans 8:2chapter context similar meaning copy save

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 4:15chapter context similar meaning copy save

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.