Discuss Romans 9 Page 4

First, we must establish the readers to know who is the church. Church is not a building. Church is the people that believes in the blood shed by Jesus Christ to save us. Church is the Body of Christ. Church is the people that walk in the Spirit of God and the people who are in the Kingdom of God. Are you one of us?

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18 KJV

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" Colossians 1:24 KJV

"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house." Colossians 4:15 KJV

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18 KJV

"As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:33 KJV

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:" Galatians 1:22 KJV

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Ephesians 5:23 KJV

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:27 KJV

"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:" Ephesians 5:29 KJV

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30 KJV

"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:32 KJV

Brother Giannis none of this section isn't directed towards you, and thank you for sharing.

Galatians 6:16.

Here's a verse that the replacement theologist often uses.

They combine that with Romans 9:6 and off they go.

Totally ignoring the surrounding scriptures and the context of the chapter, sometimes several chapters such as Romans Chs 9,10,11.

Let's look at the Israel of God in Galatians and the false teachings of some.

Here's the situation Paul is dealing with. Galatians 3:1-5.

You have to include the previous verses to get the context.

Galatians 6:12-16. Paul is talking about the Church, BUT what is often missed is he divides them into 2 groups.

Vs. 15) For in Christ Jesus neither CIRCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor UNCIRCUMCISION, but a new creature.

Vs,16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on "THEM," and mercy, and upon the "Israel of God."

Notice THEM in verse 16, "Uncircumcised, Gentiles"

The Israel of God, " Circumcised! Messianic Israelites". Children of the promise mentioned in

Romans 9:8.

So you see also in Romans 9:6, Paul is referring to those offspring of Abraham whether Ishmaelites, Arabian, Egyptian, or Israelites.

And those of the Promise, The remnant,

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:22-23.

Here's the Context.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:3-5.

You see if you put it in context it explains itself.

You have to twist a lot of scripture to make these passages the Church.

God bless.

Hi Giannis.

Are we heirs of the promise? Yes.

Are we as Issac children of promise? yes. These particular promises you are referring to in " Galatians 3:17." has nothing at all to do with " Replacement theology "

Here we are talking about promises to the NATION OF ISRAEL

All through the scripture God promised to restore "THE NATION OF ISRAEL." and set up a literal kingdom here on earth.

Concerning Romans 9:6-8.

vs 6, Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For "THEY are not all Israel, WHICH ARE "OF" ISRAEL:

This verse doesn't include us Gentiles at all. At this particular junction. Paul is making a distinction between the natural seed and the spiritual seed of the natural / Kinsman offspring.

There has always been an remnant. The distinction is to show the seed is not recond on birthright alone, if so the Ishmaelites would be included.

Key verse: Romans 9:3.

Are we Paul's

kinsman in the flesh? No.

John 10:16. says there is 2 sheep folds that will come together and become one.

Israel is one of these sheep folds.

These verses doesn't apply to us.

Romans 11:1-5.

Romans 11:25-26.

Romans 11:27.

Here in Romans 11:28-30. notice the distinction in the words like "they" and "their" that shows there's 2 distinctive groups.

"As concerning the gospel, "THEY" are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, "THEY" are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through "THEIR" unbelief:"

God will turn again to the NATION OF Israel.

Acts 15:14-17.

The context of my post is on a literal Kingdom here on earth and we are not the children/nation of Israel whom certain promises was given to.

God bless.

Brother Spencer, Please read Paul's epistle to Galatians. I am pointing out some verses:

Galatians 3:7 "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."

Who are Abraham's children. Verse 7 says those who are of faith are the ones, that is us the Christians

Galatians 3:26 and 29 " 26 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus./ 29 -And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Verses 26 and 29 say that if we are Jesus's children then we are Abraham's children as well.

Also read Romans 9:6-8 "6 -Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: /7 - Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called./8 - That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The above verses say that not all biological children of Abraham are his children, but only the children of promise. The children of promise is us, the Christians.

It is obvious that the children of faith/of promise, these are the true children of Abraham. Who are they? Christians are. Both gentiles and Jews that believe in Jesus Christ.

So the promises given from God to Abraham pass to his children who now in the NT is the Church.

GBU

Hi Elle.

Great question., Here's a few scriptures you can look over that may have answers to your questions.I would chime in when time permits. In the meantime hopefully someone can help us.

NOTICE THE PROMISES AND COVENANT MADE BY GOD WITH NO PARTICIPATION ALLOWED BY MAN.

Genesis 15:1-12.

Genesis 17:18-19.

Romans 9:6-9.

Galatians 4:22-31.

EMPHASIS.

This Promised Covenant is the work of God and can't be annulled by man.

Likewise you see a similar method as a allegory in the birth of Jacob and Essau.

Gods elected way, "By grace ".

Romans 9:10-12. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

All for now

God bless.

Hi Gigi.

First I would like to thank Brother Jesse for enhancing my understanding of that verse.

Second I would like to share the way I've heard it taught as well starting from Romans 9:17-20. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

J Vernon Mcgee says God brought out what was already in Pharoahs heart. He was a bad vessel from the start, God used Him to show his power in Egypt.

God bless.

Good morning GiGi,

Here's something I can share with you. In Romans 9:22, that word "fitted" is what is called the Middle Voice in Greek. That is, the vessel itself, made itself a condition of a vessel for destruction. Nowhere in the text does it ever say God makes a good vessel for a vessel of destruction. I'm not sure if that's what you were wondering about?

I'll use Judas Iscariot for an example. Judas didn't become evil and filled with Satan because God said, "I need to put Satan in you because I need somebody to be an evil disciple."

The bible says Judas was evil already. In John Chapter 6, Jesus said, "Haven't I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a demon." Jesus needed somebody who was evil to fulfil the role of an evil disciple. But Judas was already evil.

So a vessel fitted for destruction, and again, the word fitted means that the vessel conditions itself to be fitted for destruction. God doesn't do it. But once it's fitted for destruction, and it is a vessel of destruction, God uses it. He uses both honorable vessels and dishonorable vessels. He'll use them both for His glory and for His honor out of His choice. He used Judas (a dishonorable vessel) to fulfil prophecy.

And by the way, the instructions about the potters are coming from Jeremiah Chapter 18. You might want to put that to the left of Verse 22. Jeremiah Chapter 18 is about the potter. All the Jewish people know about the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18.

Anyways, that's my two-cents worth. Have a blessed day in Christ!

FROM: Bibleask.org

"And, behold, thy cousin Elizabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren" ( Luke 1:36).

How were Mary and Elizabeth related?

The word "cousin" in Greek is "suggenis" which means "kinswoman" or "relative." The word "suggenis" simply implies that Mary and Elizabeth were relatives, with no indication as to degree of relationship.

The word "cousin" was first used here in Wycliffe's translation. This was during a time when the word did not have the specific meaning it does now. There is no exact term in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic to denote what we describe today as a "cousin."

The law made provision for the intermarriage of the tribes ( Numbers 36:6), and members of the tribes of Levi and Judah often intermarried. Elizabeth was of the tribe of Levi. "and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth" ( Luke 1:5).

Mary was of the tribe of Judah. "To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary" ( Luke 1:27). If Mary was of Judah, it seems that Mary's father would also be of Judah. Therefore, it is possible that Mary's connection with Elizabeth was either through her mother or through Elizabeth's mother.

A question

Some may ask: how Elisabeth, who was one of the daughters of Aaron ( Luke 1:5) and consequently of the tribe of Levi, could be cousin to Mary, who was of the house of David, and consequently of the tribe of Judah ( Luke 1:3) because of the law ( Numbers 36:6,7)?

The answer is that the word cousin can be taken in two senses: one in a large sense as Paul called all the Jews his kinsmen ( Romans 9:3). And the other in a strict sense, for the daughters of the tribe of Levi can actually marry into any other tribes, having no inheritance to carry away, to violate the law ( Numbers 36:1-13).

Dear "Donya", in peace, try to understand my not perfect words and gramma.

Don't you think there can be a difference? And hang on a cross next to the Lord Jesus? For in a situation like crucifixion i would think that everyone has reached a stage where they fear for their life, soul and Spirit. I am sure God saves those people whom He has ordained. Anyway, but here we are not talking about being found worthy. We are predetermined. Romans 9:18-19 It is only thanksgiving and humility that we should show to the Almighty God, and wish all the best for all. He who intercedes for all His. Romans 8:27-30

Therefore, when people are baptized, they receive a promise that the whole family will be saved. Acts 16:31-34 Is not it worth baptizing for? :) Got some word from

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God bless us in Jesus Name, love u all

I believe the differences comes from these scriptures : Matthew 5:16, Matthew 7:21-29, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:13, Matthew 25:31-46,

Even Jesus did works: Matthew 11:2, Luke 19:37, & said greater works we shall do. John 14:20,

Matthew 16:27,

Matthew 23:3,5,23, hypocrisy not ok, you can read whole chapter & those chapters around it for context. John 8:39,

Romans 3:27-28, helps clarify, 'law of faith' Romans 4, Romans 9:30-33,

What is argued is: Romans 11:6, but in context it's the grace extended to Gentiles Romans 11:16-27, also read whole chapter Romans 11,

& Galatians 2:16, "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.'' the works of the law are in Gen. Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus. Galatians 3,

& Galatians 2:8,9, but we can't ignore Galatians 2:10,

& 2Timothy 1:9 , Titus 3, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 4:11,

However again we can't ignore 2Timothy 3:16-17, Titus 1:15,16, Titus 2, Hebrews 10:24, James 3:13, 1Peter 2:12, Revelation 2:26,

* James 2,

1. It demonstrates the Word of Knowledge, that the Holy Spirit imparts as He wills.

2. Jesus was sent to the Jews first, but this was a Samaritan Woman. This could be a Divine Appointment because not only was she saved, but most of her town got saved too.

3. The Lords not going to be conformed to our opinions and presuppositions on how He should behave.

Does the clay ask the Potter, "what! Are you doing?"

Jeremiah 18 and Romans 9:21

Hello again,

Part 4

So, creatures are not to say to the potter "Why hast thou made me like this? ( Romans 9:20-24) Who are we to question God's purpose or wisdom ( Job 38-41:6). We just need to be humble like Job, accepting Who God really is by studying His nature, essential nature and acts from the Word and also from the writings of those who have studied this topic over the ages.

Tozer, "The Knowledge of the Holy" is a good read on Who God Is. Packer is another. The early church fathers are other writers that can help us understand what Scripture teaches us about the God we worship.

The more I train my mind on discovering the excellencies of God, the more humble I become and the more readily I accept His wisdom, purposes and plans as being perfect, holy, righteous, unfathomable, and praiseworthy. I can live with knowing that God created angels and humans with the ability to sin. I can live with knowing that He indeed creating us and angels with the inevitability that sin would begin at some point in some angels and in all humans. I can live with the knowing that God created some angels and humans with the foreknowledge that these will suffer His wrath forever and other angels and humans will receive His mercy forever. I can live with knowing that the exercise of God's attributes within creation and the manifestation of His glory in all of this is truly good and righteous. I can live with knowing that God humbled Himself in creating anything, in relating to His creatures, and in becoming our Savior in Jesus Christ, because without His condescension in these things, we would never exist not receive salvation, nor know Him personally.

May my life give Him glory as He so well deserves. My only value is in what value I have in Jesus. I am but a big bag of dust and corrupted soul and spirit without the whole Trinity's loving work in me. A true view of God and of myself is really a blessing and well worth pursuing. It is a treasure because it causes us to value God

Brother Dan.

Part 2 of 2.

So we see in part 1, There's a distinction in #1) "a Jew in Christ," where there is no difference between them and a Gentile in Christ. Romans 10:12."

and #2) "National Israel."

That distinction of the 2 is embodied in the text in

Romans 9:6. ( All Israel is not Israel.

Romans 11:5. ( A remnant.)

Romans 11:7. ( the election.)

and

Romans 11:17. ( And if SOME of the branches be broken off,)

Brother Dan I leave off with this.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:1-6.

God bless you.

Hi Brother Dan.

Pt. 1

What I think is being missed in Galatians 3:29. Is that it actually says the opposite of the way you take it.

It says "you are Abraham's seed, and heirs, ""ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE"". Not law!! and not nationality.

The Promise spoken of here, "the covenant of God in Christ" was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Galatians 3:17. and before Israel was a nation.

So Galatians. 3:29. Is not saying you are Israelites it's saying you are children of Promise as we see in Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

I think the confusion is when often you call members of the church Israelites citing Galatians 3:29. and

Romans 2:29.

But you must consider

Galatians 3:28. "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."

So when you revisit Romans 9 and take on Romans 9:6-8. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

This is not making a distinction between Ishmael and Issac.

It's a distinction between

1) National Israel "The broken off branch who were blinded and who you are attempting to be grafted into " and 2) Messianic Israel who's joint members of the Church and children of the promise.

Have you noticed they all weren't broken off?

Romans 11:17. AND "IF SOME" OF THE BRANCHES BE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; BUT THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded

Here's why they're broken off.

Romans 9:31-32.

c pt2

Praise God, I am thankful for so much!

In this chapter of Exodus, Moses and Aaron are still talking with Pharaoh, seeking the release of the Israelites from bondage. Pharaoh is not deterred by the plagues, nor humbled (vs.3). He was determined not to surrender his self-assertiveness nor his maintenance of his sovereignty, not even to the true God. Isn't this the essence of sin?

In the opening of the chapter, God is stating the reasons for the hardening of Pharaoh's heart-that I may show these signs of Mine before him and that you may tell in the hearing of your sons and your son's sons the mighty things I have done in Egypt and My signs which I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD" (NIV) verses 1-2.

This makes me think of God's ways not being our ways. I know that He cannot sin or do evil. Yet so many people are being adversely affected by these plagues that God calls My signs. Here God is exercising His justice. There is not sin by God in this. I need to keep my mind clear in this so as not to accuse God of wrongdoing by causing suffering. Here God is not just allowing suffering, but is causing it. And it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pharoah chose to not submit to God, but it was as much God's doing as it was Pharaoh's ( Romans 9:14-24 speaks of God choosing to have mercy on whom He will have mercy and hardens whom He wills to harden, like Pharaoh.

In verse 4 God again, warns Pharaoh ahead of time of a coming plague, this time locusts. Even Pharaoh's servants entreated Pharaoh to let the Israelites go because Egypt was being destroyed. So, Pharaoh listened to these advisors and agreed to let SOME go, but not all. He still wanted rule over the Israelites and leaving some behind would ensure that the ones who go will come back. Pharaoh said that the MEN could go. Moses demanded that ALL would leave with him, including young, old, male, female, and all of their livestock.

Pharaoh warns Moses that evil lies ahead if they go.

"Adam.

I believe the only thing you got right in that post was your first sentence when you said

"I'm not totally clear on this,"

I didn't create the narrative. here's the narrative.

Since God's holy Sabbath day is on a Saturday and we are to honor God's Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment is it wrong for us to be going to church on Sunday shouldn't we be going to church on Saturday.

I used James 2:10. to say you can't just focus on the sabbath day and leave the other 9 commandments out.

And perfectly means ALL of them, all the time!! Are you saying that's wrong? if so you are saying it's ok not to obey the 10 commandments.

And I said the law was given to Israel. Is that wrong? Romans 9:4.

And I gave Colossians 2:14-16.

And you may have read "We rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross"

It doesn't mean we don't have to keep the 10 Commandments!

It means we are no longer condemned by the 10 Commandments. This is the complete work of God.

The 10 commandments is called the ministration of Death.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

When someone says we obey God by and through the Spirit isn't that obeying God?

The Spirit commands the heart not the flesh. You have to ALREADY be born again to obey it.

The law commanded the flesh and the flesh is weak! read Romans 7.

This is what James is talking about in James 2:14. Your faith is to be confirmed by good works!

It has nothing to do with the sabbath day.

Again my reason for using

James 2:10. is to say why if you're going to be under the law you have to be perfect.

Furthermore I have no idea how teaching this teaches people to sin when the scripture says

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28.

I don't see why you and Gigi have a problem with that.

I will post more later.

God bless."

Adam.

I believe the only thing you got right in that post was your first sentence when you said

"I'm not totally clear on this,"

I didn't create the narrative. here's the narrative.

Since God's holy Sabbath day is on a Saturday and we are to honor God's Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment is it wrong for us to be going to church on Sunday shouldn't we be going to church on Saturday.

I used James 2:10. to say you can't just focus on the sabbath day and leave the other 9 commandments out.

And perfectly means ALL of them, all the time!! Are you saying that's wrong? if so you are saying it's ok not to obey the 10 commandments.

And I said the law was given to Israel. Is that wrong? Romans 9:4.

And I gave Colossians 2:14-16.

And you may have read "We rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross"

It doesn't mean we don't have to keep the 10 Commandments!

It means we are no longer condemned by the 10 Commandments. This is the complete work of God.

The 10 commandments is called the ministration of Death.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

When someone says we obey God by and through the Spirit isn't that obeying God?

The Spirit commands the heart not the flesh. You have to ALREADY be born again to obey it.

The law commanded the flesh and the flesh is weak! read Romans 7.

This is what James is talking about in James 2:14. Your faith is to be confirmed by good works!

It has nothing to do with the sabbath day.

Again my reason for using

James 2:10. is to say why if you're going to be under the law you have to be perfect.

Furthermore I have no idea how teaching this teaches people to sin when the scripture says

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28.

I don't see why you and Gigi have a problem with that.

I will post more later.

God bless.

Hello Pat,

Your question reminds me of Romans 9:22-24

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"

Scripture does give some hints at why God created anything in the first place, but I think much of this why is hid in the unsearchable depths of His wisdom. Yet, we are told in Scripture that He created all things for His pleasure and for His glory.

It is impossible for us to come to know all that God is or the why of His actions. But through His revelation to us in His Word we have learned many things about Him. It is common to describe God according to attribute, which just tell us aspects of His Being. We know He is all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere, eternal, infinite, holy, perfect, pure, and many others.

Before creation, God existed eternally already as three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Being (Godhead). In this Godhead, He was completely satisfied, loved, and harmonious, in need of nothing to make Him more perfect than He always has been. However, in the Godhead, there was not a reason to show mercy, grace, power, wrath, justice, compassion, providence, etc. because there was no sin or lack of anything within the Trinity for these aspects of His Being to be utilized. By creating the universe and all beings in heaven and on earth-people, and creatures, and plants, He exercises these aspects of His Being. In all He does, His glory shows. So, again, although God does not need anything outside of Himself to be satisfied, He created as an expression of Who He has always been and will always be.

I do suggest that you pose this question on the internet and read up on it. It is a fascinating subject and a post on here just does not do it justice.

Hi Udondirim.

Esau married Canaanite woman, Canaanites was a Godless tribe of people. Canaan was pronounced a curse on them by Noah. This bothered Isaac and Rebekah.

BUT Esau was never in the plans of God so so the Canaanite woman or Shem bloodline had absolutely nothing to do with Gods plan. Here's why.

It's important to notice Ham had three sons Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan. Ham wasn't cursed neither was his other three sons.

It's interesting to know Rahab was a Canaanite, Ruth was a Moabite and these are the grandmother and great grandmother of king David! And Tamar "Judah's wife" who he had two children by is said to be a Canaanite by her pagan name.

All these is in the genealogy of Christ!

It's interesting Bathsheba's husband "Uriah the Hittite" was not of Israel, And God punished David for having him killed.

Joseph wife Asenath the mother of Manasseh and Ephraim was not of the tribe of Israel either, she was Egyptian from the town of On.

God didn't focus on Shems bloodline when he formed Israel out of the loins of Abraham. They were Idol worshippers as well as the rest of the world.

The focus was on Gods promise! "Isaac the promise child" and Jacob "Gods elect". Romans 9:11.

This emphasizes Gods sovereign Grace! Not bloodline, Not doing good or evil, God purposes his grace apart from anything man can offer!!

God is no respecter of person. There is some have built a very racial doctrine behind that notion which is against the body of scripture and generates pride.

So again to answer your question, Esau married two woman from Canaan and that didn't please Isaac but he still tried to give him the blessing, But it had nothing to do with Gods Choice.

God bless.

Daniel was in an extreme circumstances & was yet obedient to GOD & faithful, 2Kings 20:18, Daniel 1:1, Daniel 1:8, we assume Daniel wouldn't eat food that was considered "unclean' or 'abomination' to GOD as set forth in the Books of Leviticus 1, if you would like to study the Laws given to Moses.

Jesus said : Matthew 5:17, Romans 9:31-33, John 3:15-21, Matthew 25,

Hopefully these are helpful

Hi Scott.

God was saving People long before Abraham, There was no Israelite. But to answer your question, Here's one of many of many verses.

Acts 15:7-11. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

NOTICE VERSE 11.

11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ ( WE SHALL BE SAVED EVEN AS THEY.)

"We shall be saved even as they"

If you're not careful you would think it should be the other way around.

"They shall be saved even as us.

Do you see the order of God's redemption plan spoken of by Paul to the Romans?

Romans 9:25-26.

Romans 9:31-33.

Romans 10:1-4.

Romans 10:19-21.

Romans 11:8-25.

Here's the conclusion.

Romans 11:29-33.

God bless.

Hi Sister GiGi.

Great read. I like to add some input on the blessings Jacob gave his sons.

I believe the blessings to Abraham and Issac went through the Lineage of Judah.

Here's why.

Genesis 22:18.

Galatians 3:14.

Galatians 3:16.

Now here is Judahs blessing.

Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

THE SCEPTRE SHALL NOT DEPART FROM JUDAH, NOR A LAWGIVER FROM BETWEEN HIS FEET, UNTIL SHILOH COME; AND UNTO HIM SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE.

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. Genesis 49:8-12.

Abraham's blessing to Issac was because he was Promised! He was God's doing! We are children of Promise as well.

Galatians 4:28.

Ishmael was the works of their own hands "Works of the flesh " ( This has a lot of spiritual application )

Here is the Contrast of the two.

Galatians 4:29-31.

Verse 30 says Issac is the heir this connects him to the promise on through Jacob on Judah to Christ. Revelation 5:5.

What's interesting is Jacob blessing Joseph sons out of order instituting the reverse sovereign order of the firstborn as seen in Romans 9:11-12. Romans 9:11.

("that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;")

I believe we see the contract of Works and Grace, Flesh and Spirit, The narrow gate and the wide gate. And the putting asleep of Abraham when the unconditional covenant was made. All in These verses.

God bless you and Good night.

Hi GiGi.

The Lord deliverance of Israel out of Egypt was well planned out and his glory was on display Exodus 14:4. and Romans 9:17.

And them entering Egypt was impressive as well with the Lord in total control of this from the selling of Joseph

( Genesis 50:20.) through out the blessings of Joseph. I like to view it as the Lords sovereign plan being exercised

( Genesis 15:13) rather than the brothers doing evil. God was in total control, and even over the famine.

Because all this contributed to the promise he made Abraham.

Great read.

God bless and Goodnight.

Dear friends in the Lord

Romans 9:12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

With love in Christ

Genesis 36:1, Hebrews 11:20, Hebrews 12:14-17,

Important scriptures on why= Hebrews 12:16

Obadiah 1:1-21,

Obadiah 1:10,11,12,13,14

Hopefully these are helpful in your discussion & understanding.

Good responses, guys. I agree with so much of what has been said so far. I do think that this is said as a comparison between Jacob (chosen) and Esau (not chosen). It is meant to point out how God as been at work in human history to bring about His will and overall purpose. Think about the sons of Noah, Shem, Japheth, and Ham. One line was chosen (Shem) the others not chosen. Did God love Japheth and Ham less? No. Could they have a relationship with God? Yes..

Look at Ishmael and Isaac. Did God love Ishmael less? No. Could Ishmael have a relationship with God? Yes.

Then, look at Jacob and Esau. did God love Esau less? No. Could Esau have a relationship with God? Yes.

Lastly, let's look at the Israelites and the Gentiles. Does God love the Gentiles less? No. Can Gentiles have a relationship with God? Yes. Throughout history God has chosen peoples, groups, and persons to fulfill a specific part of His redemptive plan in human history. Should the one who was chosen be prideful about this? No. They should feel the awesome weight of the particular call of God on them. Should the one not chosen be disappointed or rebellious towards God? No. the unchosen should give God the love and worship He deserves and believe He is ultimately just. Many people throughout history have been "unchosen" yet by their faith have received the promise of salvation. I think of Ruth, Rahab, Cornelius, the Samaritan woman, millions of Gentiles. God made Himself known throughout history through a chosen people, the lineage of Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. Those of us who do not have a bloodline in the Israelite lineage have been adopted into this chosen race by the blood of Jesus through faith. I am sure that there were very likely some of Esau's lineage that did believe and serve God in faith. Jesus' blood reaches back to them. He is the God of every one and saves all who seek Him in faith throughout history.

Brother S Spence, there is yet more to come concerning Jacob and Esau:

Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac BLESSED Jacob and Esau concerning THINGS TO COME.

The writer of Hebrews says those blessings are still in the future, they will come to pass after the resurrection to judgement and God's kingdom has been set up on earth.

Jacob's blessing:

Genesis 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: ......

Esau's blessing:

Genesis 27:40 ...and serve thy brother: and it shall COME TO PASS when THOU SHALL HAVE the dominion, that thou shall break HIS (Jacob's) yoke from off thy neck.

Esau will come into God's kingdom after the resurrection to judgement, the kingdom of God is within you, and all Israel will be saved.

You are right the children were chosen according to the election of GRACE, one a vessel of honour and one a vessel of dishonour, but in the fullness of time God will be all in all.

Hi James. I know, that word 'hate' can be very pointed & ugly, especially when seen in the Scriptures. We need to realize that 'hate' as seen here & other places, can have several meanings. The word in Greek is 'miseo', & of course, it does mean 'to hate' but also can have other meanings according to application, i.e. 'to detest, to love less, to esteem less'. So, it's not always an ugly uncontrolled emotion that is shown. You can think of Luke 14:26, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Did the Lord mean to say that we are to feel such hatred for our family just so that we can truly follow Him? Or did He mean that we need to esteem Him more, putting Him first in everything even to giving our family second place?

And then we have another conundrum as seen in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." I share this verse simply to demonstrate the usage & understanding of languages. In Isaiah, we read of two strange phenomena: God creating darkness & creating evil. Can a God Who is altogether Light & altogether Holy & Good create such things? Some might say, yes, because He is God. Rather we should consider that in light of Who God is, maybe the creation of darkness, is actually God removing His Light. Maybe the creation of evil, is God removing His Peace. Darkness is always the default just as is Evil the present default in the World. We enjoy both physical & spiritual Light because of God's intervention through Christ ( Colossians 1:16,17; John 8:12) - we also enjoy great quietness & enjoyment of life because God by His Spirit is holding back the full onslaught of evil ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7).

Therefore Romans 9:13 & Malachi 1:2,3 that speak of 'hating Esau', can only mean that Esau was hated (rejected) in God's Plan, just as Jacob was loved (accepted).

Hi James.

I would like to suggest a possibility here concerning this text.

The text reads 'As it is written " I would like to go to where this phrase was originally drawn from and get the context and tie the two together.

Malachi 1:1-3. The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? WAS NOT ESAU JACOB'S BROTHER? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God is saying by my feelings and actions shown towards Esau, and he's jacobs brother "Suggesting equal grounds when Israel was Jacob" SHOULD be Proof I Love Jacob. IF THIS HATE WAS CAUSED BY SOMETHING ESAU DID THERE WOULD BE NO EVIDENCE ON DISPLAY HERE OF THE LOVE FOR JACOB.

Atleast consider that for a moment and go back to Romans 9. and let's take it from verse 11 on down to verse 14.

Romans 9:11-14. (FOR THE CHILDREN BEING NOT YET BORN, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL,

((( that the purpose of God according to election might stand, )not of works, but of him that calleth;)))!!

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Here he Emphasizes THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH;)

I believe the focus here is Jacob represents Gods Grace. Esau represents the will of the flesh " For lack of better terms "

Perhaps Hate here is used as a term for Comparison as Brother Jesse shared in an earlier post.

Just a suggestion, God bless.

James When you look at the record in genesis 25:22 to chapter 28 concerning things that Esau did,

the seat of his personal life had no believing or commitment. He sold his birthright out just for food he

disobeyed his parents, he would have killed his brother. Rebeccah was walking and listening to God,

she knew who the promise was to go to. Romans 9 is talking about the believing line by promise, Esau

was crooked in his Heart and God knew it.