Discuss Titus 1 Page 5

P2..from P1.

Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Lk 24:26, 44, Rom 8:3, Heb 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.

Heb 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Heb 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...

The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.

P1Good points, Chris. The thought that God could make anything He makes less than perfect is a good point to ponder. A commentary on the subject points out that man might have been created immortal and upon eating the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality. That seems plausible, in that immortal doesn't necessarily mean eternal. The Angels, apparently are eternal beings, if we understand Christ right when He says that like the Angels, we won't die Lk 20:36. So if God created Angels immortal, why didn't He take that immortality from them, so they too would die? Instead, He sentenced them to eternal punishment.

And as you say, "Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw." I am in total agreement. That is the way I see it. Now, the devil knows his days are numbered. And as you aptly claim, the devil seized the opportunity to 'test' Adam and Eve, in an attempt to destroy the work of God. So the question must be asked, was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation? And, why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden? Why not keep him as far away from His creation as possible? Maybe banish him to Mercury, Pluto or beyond. Why smack in the middle of the Garden? What was God's reason for that?

Was it to test Adam's loyalty? But if God, in His omniscience knew Adam would succumb to the tricks of the devil, why put him through that anyway? Is God so insecure that He has to 'test' His creation to make sure it is loyal to Him? Or did God have another reason for doing that?

Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation, to be made possible. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis...continued P2

Chris, I find Scripture doesn't support the notion that God knows ahead of time what is going to happen, let's it happen then reacts to it. But you have misunderstood my description of events.

From my limited perspective and to simplify,

1. God determined to create, Gen 1:26

2. In His Omniscient understanding of Himself, He knew that all things He created, to include Angels, would be eventually afflicted with Cancer (corruption, moral and corporal - an indisputable fact given corruption has affected creation)

3. He developed a Plan of creation, which of necessity included Christ (Bible says all things were created for Christ - which can only mean for His incarnation, death, resurrection, through which He would accomplish His Purpose for Creation)

4. He created Angels, who eventually became corrupt (Jesus said, one of you is a devil and identified him. He knew Lucifer would be the one)

5. God created Lucifer, who is the one who corrupted (God did not cause His corruption)

6. He created mankind and a group of people He called Jews so Christ could be born through them

7. He placed Adam and Eve in the Garden and decreed the first Law, Do Not Eat (It was Appointed for men to die once, Heb 9:26-28)

8. Because God loves us and His creation, He implemented His Plan of Redemption through Christ, to Save as many as Believe, Titus 1:2

8. Christ came to rid creation of corruption and establish eternal perfection (a fact expressed through the Bible, summarized in Dan 9:24)

9. The rest is history, Rom 8-10



The Genesis account of Creation is clear. God created with a Plan. The Universe was created in stages in a well-organized, purposeful manner. God created with a Goal. That Goal, we are told in Rom 8:28-30, is Christ.

The fact remains, the Bible is clear on the sequence of and the reason for which everything is as it is. Do we understand it? No. Do we like it? No. But Christ is the All in everything, 1 Cor 15:28, Col 3:11.

Chris, again you ask, "God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption, so His Christ could fulfill His Plan for removing that corruption"?

Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began ( Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.

If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility ( 1 Cor 15:53).

So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.

It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.

So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.

If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.

What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.

Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.

Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.

That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:

1. All things have been created for Christ

2. The Future does not exist

3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose

4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is

5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation

6. God created to eradicate corruption

In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.

I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.

Larry B Jesus was, is and always shall be God, who came in the flesh to redeem mankind from sin and death.

1 Timothy 3:16

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." King James Version (KJV)

God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12

God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

-- Acts 4:12

...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

-- 2 Timothy 2:10

Chris, I like these conversations because they make us think and search the Scriptures. Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is what the modern church has taught for the last few Centuries.

You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.

First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.

Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.

Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.

Greetings Shannon, by no means do I believe in what I am telling you concerning a "Lilith" in Judaism.

The word Lilith appears 1 time in the King James in Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. (the king James translators used screech owl for Lilith)

In the Jewish encyclopedia: Lilith was the first "wife" of Adam prior to Eve, she left him cause she did not want him to be "on top" and she went to become the wife of samael. Where do they come up with this stuff? Only in the minds of certain Rabbis as it is NOT in the Bible. This is why Paul wrote in Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Wiccans (witches) revere Lilith as the queen of demons and even have festivals in her "honor"

I am not sure where you came across this name from, but I would stay away from it as it is steeped in the occult.

I came out of the new age and went to Bible college and did studies on the occult. This stuff is evil.

Shalom Bob,

Yes I agree the name Jew never existed until at least 400 years ago.

Just like Yahuah, who name his son, with his own name Yahusha, he also name his chosen people after himself, they are called Yahudim.

Yahuah also name the land where they lived after his own name Yahudah. Not Judah.

Matthew is also wrong, as Yahuah also name him with his own name within his correct name - Mattithyahu.

You are only reading the name Jesus because that's what Christian Bible all say.

No the New Testament was not written in Greek it was translated from Hebrew into Greek and it was this translation where they CHANGED Yahusha to IESOUS then more recently changed IESOUS to Jesus.

Yeshua is also incorrect, so no I am not of "this Yeshua group" as you put it.

You have taken Titus 1:14 out of context so I want bother with that.

Do you really think that your Jesus really spoke to the Hebrews in Greek? REALY!

Anyway Yahuah only loves those who call upon his name and the name of his son Yahusha.

Prov 8:17 I love those who love me.

Shalom Bob,

Yes I agree the name Jew never existed until at least 400 years ago.

Just like Yahuah, who name his son, with his own name Yahusha, he also name his chosen people after himself, they are called Yahudim.

Yahuah also name the land where they lived after his own name Yahudah. Not Judah.

Matthew is also wrong, as Yahuah also name him with his own name within his correct name - Mattithyahu.

You are only reading the name Jesus because that's what Christian Bible all say.

No the New Testament was not written in Greek it was translated from Hebrew into Greek and it was this translation where they CHANGED Yahusha to IESOUS then more recently changed IESOUS to Jesus.

Yeshua is also incorrect, so no I am not of "this Yeshua group" as you put it.

You have taken Titus 1:14 out of context so I want bother with that.

Do you really think that your Jesus really spoke to the Hebrews in Greek? REALY!

Anyway Yahuah only loves those who call upon his name and the name of his son Yahusha.

Prov 8:17 I love those who love me.

So since the letter J is a recent thing and that the name Jesus could not exist. I suppose NO J in Jesus means that

JJJJ Jews do not exist either?

these Yeshua group are basically DENYING the King James Bible.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The angel Gabriel told Mary to name him Jesus, not Yeshu which is a curse Jews say may his name be blotted out from under heaven.

Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So do we believe the Bible or Jewish fables that the New Testament Bible was originally Hebrew and mistranslated by those pagan anti-Semitic Greeks?

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The word of god brings power in our life: acts 1:8

the word of god brings peace in our life: hews 12:14

the word of god brings prayer in our life:

the word of god brings purpose in our life

the word of god brings praise in our life

the word of god brings strength in our life

the word of god removes sorrow in our life

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Jesse Greetings, Yes Rabbi's rules Jesus called them the commandments of men aka tradition of the elders and condemned them for it. Good point. Christ blasted them for this. Like the Noahide laws today.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Lilith, as a person, is a figment of the imagination of some Rabbis. Look into the jewish encyclopedia if you really want to know.
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
in the KJV the word "SCREECH OWL" comes from the word Lilith. but the interpretation is used different in occult circles.
Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
Some rabbis claim Lilith was the first wife of Adam, prior to Eve. Other Rabbis claim she is a demoness who sucks life out of children.

Indeed Christianity has been under attack. Very strangely, the same ideology that attacks Christians seems ok with other religions. What is bad is good for them, and good is now bad. This mentality is mentioned in Titus 1:16, Romans 1:28.

I agree that those in church leadership should have higher standards. The Bible gives such examples of standards for those qualified to become elders of church. 1 Tim. 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-9, 1 Peter 5:1-4.

God is the word and his word is true, as you read the Bible you see and know his word, you cannot pollute it to your own meaning but as what he has spoken, he promised to save us from satin , as adam and eve followed a false teacher, he gave us his son to die on that tree so we may be redeemed again in the glory of God, there is know greater love then his Amen

I am proud to read this chapter because I made a chart based on numbers 23:19.
I read this everyday and whenever I look at the chart. God is not a man , that He
should lie, neither the Son of Man that He should repent: hath He said , and shall
He not do it? Or hath He spoken and shall He not make it good? This "blesses" my
heart to know that my source is God and not man.

Shirley!!! What ever God think becomes the truth. This is why he can not lie. He is the word and the word is God!!!

God cannot lie! To lie and to bare false testimony is from the Evil one. God is Truth God is the Light God is Holy. He is the Holy of Holy. Their is no Sin in God, Their is no Darkness only Light which Smothers Darkness. God is Light God is Truth God is all that's Good.

Robert; God cannot lie as He cannot sin because there is no unrighteousness in Him. His Divine Nature has no part dark or anything in His character that can be tempted with evil. Lying and perversion came out of the father of lies who has never stood in the truth. Thus it is that the Lord Jesus said, All they who are of the truth will hear my voice. And so then by our faith He counts us righteous.

Vs 2 THE STATEMENT IS THAT GOD CANNOT LIE,DOES THAT MEAN THAT HE IS INCAPABLE OF LIEING REFUSES TO LIE OR IS RESTRICTED FROM LYING. WOULD THE WORD"CANNOT" BE BETTER TRANSLATED "DOES NOT"? THIS QUESTION WAS PRESENTED TO ME WITH THE ADDENDUM "GOD IS ALL POWERFUL AND CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS SO WHY CAN'T HE LIE". IT WAS AN HONEST QUESTION NOT A CHALENGE

"and ordain elders in every city" vs5. And, "For a bishop must be blameless," vs7. Both elder and bishop are one and the same. The only other leading office in the local church was the deacon. Elders (overseers, bishops, presbyters) were to take the lead in the spiritual life of the church. The deacons oversaw ministry to the poor, the widows, and so on. More on the work of the ministry in 2 weeks

YES, servant! as it is written; "Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?" John 10:32; and "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10. Also: Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 5:10,25; 6:18; Titus 1:16; 3:8,14; Hebrews 10:24; 2 Timothy 3:17; James 3:13; etc.

What a good reminder! We need to be clean in all our actions! This is good to help our children. When I was in school, I could be talking about something completely harmless and there would always be an associate to turn it into something gross,rude, or sexual. This scripture can help our children not to pick up this habit, and show that we need to keep clean in everything we do.

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate (worthless)." Jesus wants us to let our light shine so men see His grace in real life: a character and behavior like God!

Verse 16: This shows that our words must be back up by actions.

Titus 1 vs 10;For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: How true is this verse in reference to churches of this age. Many have left the preaching of the gospel/Christ to motivational speeches, business talks, and self elevation messages today in our various pulpits thereby relegating Christ to the back ground. May God deliver us from such.