Bible Discussion Thread

Being saved by grace means Jesus Christ decides our salvation, not us.

Being saved by grace means God did for us (sinners) what we could not do for ourselves. He died for our sins, was buried & rose agian from the dead. That is the grace message. It's not of works lest any should boast.

Where in the Bible are we taught, God did for us what we could not do ourselves? How does grace come to us? By faith. Unless you believe James is a liar, Faith without works is dead. You can't have grace without faith. If you understood the full context of the Bible you will see we are saved by grace and works. I say again, unless you believe James is liar. But in the end, our salvation will be decided by He who took upon Him the sin of the world so whether we follow Him in good works unto grace, the Master will decide our salvation, not us. Therefore may not man boast in his own good works for God is Christ. And if you or I do any good works, it by His grace. You cannot be saved without baptism. I'll gladly point that out to you in the Bible.

Hi Paul: what I meant by what God did for us sinners what we could not forselves was an expression, meaning there is nothing you or can do to save ourselves , The Apostle Pauls says -we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God Not of wokrs lest any man should boast Eph 2:8-9 The Apostle Paul is our Apostle to the Gentiles. For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

2 Timothy 1:11

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

1 Timothy 2:7

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

The Book of James is writing to the 12 tribes scrattered James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. We are the 12 tribes of Isreal. Isreal was under the Law we gentiles were not. God bless

Rod, I gave the definition of being saved by grace and you replied in a manner saying I'm incorrect. Then you continue by using the apostle Paul's writing which say works are not involved in our salvation.

Clearly, James writings on faith and works contradict Paul's writings on grace.

Therefore, I neither call the apostle James or the apostle Paul liars.

I say it is both.

We are saved by grace after all we can do, says neither James or Paul are liars.

Many mislead others by using Paul to call James a liar.

If you meet James , the apostle of our Lord, when you pass on you can say, I used the apostle Paul to call you, the apostle of our Lord, James, a liar.

When I meet James and Paul, I will call neither a liar because I believe the truth.

Hi Paul: let me ask you a question - Is Jesus Christ's Gospel and the Apostle Pauls Gospel the same?

Rod, yes

let me ask you this question, why did Jesus save Saul when he already had 12 Apostles already preaching his gospel?

Greetings Rod, Jesus had picked 12 apostles and Judas hung himself. There were then only 11 apostles.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I fail to find in scripture where the Lord told the apostles to choose a replacement for Judas as recorded here. They did this act on their own accord with out being told to do this.

Acts Chapter 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I am sure both of these men were faithful in the eyes of the 11, but still the Lord did not command them to do this thing. Saul / Paul however was a different story.

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Saul who became Paul was chosen of the Lord himself.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

I have had people deny Paul as an apostle and in doing so they must deny the book of acts and the book of 2 Peter which confirms Paul as a brother in Christ. This is usually those who claim to be into "Hebrew roots"

I find it interesting Paul was a learned scholar and was sent to the unlearned uncircumcised "Gentiles"

and Peter an unlearned fisherman was sent to the learned Jews, who knew scriptures.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; These things humble me greatly.

All glory to the Lord.

( 1 Timothy 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.



Because Paul saw our Lord on the road to Damascus, does not automatically make him an apostle or Mary Magdalene and above 500 brethren at once would be apostles.

( 1 Corinthians 15:6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul Called a chosen vessel by the Lord

Acts Chapter 9

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?



5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Does not all God's creation reflect His Holy Order?

What man calls the law of gravity and the laws of physics are they not the law of Christ ordered to sustain life?

God is not the author of confusion.

I believe man is confusion but God is order.

( 1 Chronicles 15:3) For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.



( 2 Chronicles 29:35) So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.

Later, and we are given in scripture an exact time line, Paul was ordained an apostle by the laying on of hands Peter being the chief apostle and none of Paul's writings would have gone forth among the saints without Peter's, James' and John's approval in God.

What do the scriptures say regarding the replacement of Judas?

They replaced Judas on their own without being told to do this?

Peter clearly says why Judas was replaced:



Speaking of Judas, For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. ( Acts 1:20)

Therefore by prophesy, or by the Holy Ghost declaring God's Word, was Judas replaced.



And if Judas was replaced by the Holy Ghost, or Word of God, others of the apostleship would have been replaced after leaving or dying or martyred, not just Judas, as Peter said, the book of Psalms declares.

So we know after Judah was replaced by Matthias, Matthias took his place among the eleven restoring the apostleship to 12 because God's house is a house of order.

Look for the order.

I believe before mass communication Christ ordained 24 apostles also known as elders of which are spoken of by John in Revelation.

I believe the Lord saved Paul to open the gospel to the gentiles.

Paul had the innocent blood of Steven near him consenting to Steven's martyr.

Paul ran the race, fought the good flight and won the prize and stands on the right hand of Christ.

But somewhere Paul would have replaced a previous apostle who was martyred or replaced or died.

According to the apostle Paul in 2Peter 3:3-8, Galatians 3 is from the third day of Creation, when Jesus had come by water only. Until Christ came by the water and the blood, as He did today, the first and only fourth day of the Creation, sin was unforgiven; however, the "faith" referenced is not your: it belongs to Jesus Christ.

"For by Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast". So we know from these verses that our Salvation is by Grace not works. It also cannot be by both Grace and works because Grace and works are opposites. As the apostle Paul tells us again, "And if by Grace then is it no more of works otherwise Grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then is it no more Grace otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:6) So unless your willing to call the apostle Paul a liar we have to conclude that our Salvation is only by grace, not by works. Jesus doesn't decide our Salvation, we do. We decide whether we want to believe in Jesus and confess Him as our Lord and Savior. It's a conscious decision we each need to make: Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead. You do not need baptism to be saved. That's all a part of the works trip religion.

Therefore, the Saints practiced baptism for the dead that those who died not receiving the ordinance may be saved for God is a Just God.

Paul's teaching of the resurrection tied to the ordinance of baptism is proof the physical act of receiving baptism is a necessity to being saved or you will not rise.

Next, we should discuss authority for the scriptures say, And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Paul makes the necessary ordinance of baptism unto salvation perfectly clear talking about baptism for the dead, saying:

1 Corinthians 15

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

... you will not rise in the first resurrection unless you are baptized.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"... baptized for the remission of sins." I don't know how much clearer this could be said.

But some will say that baptism, the baptism our Lord was baptized by John, has a different meaning because John said, I indeed have baptized you with water: but he (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

So with this passage, the physical baptism that represents being buried with Christ and coming out of the water in a newness of life likened to the resurrection of Christ, no longer is needed. The ordinance of baptism is done away, in other words.

Christ will indeed baptize with the Spirit after we are physically baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

We don't need baptism to be saved, Stan?

That all a part of the works trip religion?

Don't stop reading the Bible, Stan, for Peter says if you rest the scriptures you rest them to your own condemnation.

The more you read, the clearer it becomes. The more you don't read, the less clear it becomes.

Let's look at what the Spirit tells us about baptism in the scriptures:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"... even baptism doth now save us." I can't see how much clearer that could be said.

But let's keep going:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Revelation 20:13 and they were judged every man according to their works.

The you say, Jesus Christ doesn't decide our salvation, we do.

Stan, did you take upon you the sin of the world?

Stan, is it by your grace we are saved?

I believe in Christ only comes salvation and there is no other name given by which man is saved.

We come unto the Father only through Jesus Christ.

Are you sure when we've done all we can do we save ourselves?

Christ said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

James 2:18-20 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 20:12 and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Romans 2:6-7, 10

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Paul - Yes we can not be saved without baptism, however getting the body wet is not it.

Mark Chapter 1: 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, ...

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (of the Spirit)

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: