The Bible says there is only ONE BAPTISM - Is it John's with water, or the Lord Jesus' with the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT. Of course, it is Jesus' - when we trust the Lord as our Savior we are immersed in HIS SPIRIT. John's water baptism - was basically for the Jews - BEFORE Jesus' Crucifixion - to show represent they were 'turning away from trusting THE LAW to save them and instead 'confessed' their sins - knowing it was God who saves - not the Law. Conclusion: Water Baptism is NOT the ONE BAPTISM - it is obsolete and just gets one wet. Some people waste so much time focusing on Water Baptism - time that could be used to win other to Christ.
Why would you say it's a waste of time to baptize others when there are so many verses in the KJV that say you need to be baptized. Even Jesus said you needed to be born of the water to enter Heaven.
Matthew 3:11 - I indeeed baptize you with WATER unto repentance
Who is "I"? It is John the Baptist. What is he baptizing with? Water. Why? For 'repentance' (reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by commitment to and actual actions that show and prove a change for the better.)
Who was John baptizing? Jews..What were they repenting of? Dead WORKS
( Matt. 3:11) But he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST (Spirit), and with FIRE
Who was John talking about? Jesus .So Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and Fire (Fire is definitely not water)
Then Ephesians 4:4-5 says:
There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling;
ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism
1 = 1 Which baptism is it? by water? or By Fire(= Holy Spirit)?
If I have to pick ONE BAPTISM I choose Jesus'
Now, WHO had John the Bap. been baptizing? JEWS
Who did Jesus come for?
The Jews ( Matt. 15:24)
Who were the apostles first called to go to? The Jews ( Matt. 10:6)
So, Jesus and John the Bap. were just dealing with the Jews at the time (In fact, until He rose again - Jesus' ministry was primarily to the Jews - He even referred to the Gentiles as 'dogs' ( Matt. 15"26)
How does Jesus save? By Grace=NO more WORKS
How would the Jews get saved? By Grace, right?
They needed to turn (def. of 'repentance') away from depending on their works( Heb. 6"1) and depend solely on Jesus to be saved.
John baptized The Jews w/water to show they had repented from depending on the Law
The Gentiles never even knew about the law so they didn't need water baptism
Jesus didn't need the thief on the cross to be baptized by water
And so,water baptism is associated w/the Jews - & it was newly saved Jews who thought it was necc. for ALL, but Paul knew better ( I Cor. 1:17)
Kathleen, you make some good points & they are almost a reflection of my grandfather's view on water baptism, where his opposition to it was so strong, that he forbad any of his children & wife to go through its waters.
And as much as I would agree with you on the 'greater' importance to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (& after all this is the hallmark of the believer, & that which seals & secures him/her eternally), what then do you make of the NT Scriptures that still demonstrate water baptism? Of course, we have Jesus' Own Command to His disciples in Mt 28:19,20 (& I give a few Scriptures relating only to water baptism); Acts 2:38-41; 8:38; 16:33; 19:1-6; 1 Cor 13:13-16. And these were not just Jews only but Gentiles as well. And in any case, once a Jew turns to Christ, Christian baptism is still necessary to demonstrate the act of conversion.
How do you interpret these portions?
The only occasion that I could anticipate that a Christian would not need to be baptized in water would be where there was no one (e.g. an evangelist or personal witness) to share the Gospel with the unbeliever, & that enquiring soul, from the reading of the Word & moving of the Spirit, receives spiritual re-birth. A good example of this are the Apostles, (except Saul who was led to the Lord by Ananias ( Acts 9:1-18)). We never see any testimony or reference by the apostles to their water baptism. Why not? Because they were baptized with the Spirit at Pentecost & were never led to salvation. So, it seems that the one that leads a soul to salvation should ensure (i.e. obeying the command) that water baptism takes place forthwith as a testimony of the great transaction. Sadly, our Churches pay little regard to this clearly defined order & folk are baptized according to their wishes & even decades down the road. There seems little sense to me in doing it this way & may just be a form of 'works' in case "I don't make it to Heaven".
Mishael on Baptism-Holy Spirit-Upper Room - In Reply on Matthew 3 - 4 years ago
Someone needs to tell the Baptist Churches, huh?
John the Baptist also baptized Jesus in water. As a dove the Holy Spirit pointed Jesus out. John prophesied, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.
If you go back into Discussions history pages you will see many pages on comment on this subject: through Jesus and all of his disciples and Paul.
We cannot understand the Bible fully unless we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why the Disciples were told by Jesus to await in the Upper Room.
The Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Godhead. When He came into the upper room the guys saw tongues of fire. They had a unique supernatural experience that was witnessed by a lot of people. How do you know they were all Jews? This event flowed out into the streets, such was the excitement. I'm sure there were some Gentiles in the area. What are the odds on that? It says they heard their own languages coming from the disciples mouths. It was a city; all kinds of people were around to witness this and Hear it.
It's recorded in the Bible. Jesus wanted this to happen just as it did. He said the Comforter would Come! The disciples KNEW this was the manifestation of what Jesus said! They were beyond JOY that Jesus was with them and in them in a very real way.
They were not alone, fearful, anymore. They had Jesus with them and in them again.
Look in your encyclopedic index in your Bible and look at the list of what all the Holy Spirits ministry is to believers! One: HE is our TEACHER who HELPS us rightly divide the WORD of TRUTH. (I AM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE). We need the Holy Spirit; and His Baptism.
If you are doubting about the gift of tongues; HE will not force it on you! It's for your edification. See? We have to learn from Him first. Be taught by Him. You have to study like a "student" and ask many many questions that are in your mind. And then you've got to get STILL before HIM and LISTEN to Him.
It so warms the heart and spirit, that we are like-minded, in agreement on the Holy Spirits ministry to us as Believers in Jesus. In a sense we can go into the Upper Room with Him, to worship and learn. He loves to reveal Jesus and prepare us for what comes next. Sometimes I ask myself, what is He doing in me today.
There is a passage where Martha was sitting at Jesus's feet, listening to what He was speaking. She gets scolded for not preparing a meal with the others. Jesus says something like, she has chosen the better portion.
That's why I try to show others what Jesus has said we are to be doing. Demonstrating our love for each other (as Gentiles) so that the Jews will see, wonder, and be envious of our relationship to our Beloved, our Savior Jesus, the long awaited for, Messiah.
There's this HUGE dynamic that very few people perceive. We're pounding on the scripture trying to excel past Jews who study endlessly; when it is the fellowship and brotherly & sisterly love, Jesus wants us to excel in. We're going to love them into the Kingdom by our love and obedience to the known will of God.
In Matthew 26, Jesus is having dinner with the Pharisees, elders, etc. Mary Magdalene comes in with this expensive pot of perfumed ointment. Read it. The Pharisees know Jesus will be arrested the next day! Yet they jump up and try to drag Mary out.
(This a memorial to her as Jesus said).
Jews still don't know they missed their Messiah! To this day. Although some of the returning Jews have become Christian in places where they lived.
Minister your love and worship to Jesus and all will be well spoken of you in heaven. There will be a reward for just loving, worshipping and not railing on Jews in public and in private. THEY will know Him by your LOVE for each other. NOT competition.
I apologize for preaching. I'm supposed to be having a quiet day. Thanks so much for your reply.
Just want to say, God Bless any of you who carry on this conversation (I must drop out of it now) - I def. don't mean it to divide our BODY (there is enough division) - it was just my own personal thoughts, not meant to be a matter of contention.
To the administrators of this site: I am thankful for and greatly appreciate it!
Hi Michael - I agree totally that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not just for Jews back then - I meant that those in line to get water baptized by John were (most likely - I wasn't there lol) mainly, if not all, Jews. Once the Jewish nation rejected Jesus as their Messiah (in general - not counting Jesus' Jewish followers) and delivered Him up for crucifixion, He rises and His disciples get Hot on fire spreading the word here, there and everywhere -
and then PAUL really gets the ball rolling and spreads the gospel to the Gentiles:
( Eph. 3:8 Unto ME, who am less than the least of all saints, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT *I* SHOULD PREACH AMONG the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ)
I just wanted to share my thoughts on water baptism and go no further, but I am so with you about the Comforter coming! and Jesus' disciples being beyond JOY when He arrived!!!
I guess though, I have to say - I believe, in this dispensation of GRACE - that when we are saved - at that moment -
we become "In Christ" -
( 2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new)
At the moment we are saved we are IN CHRIST - in other words, we are IMMERSED in HIM - and, as we all know, baptism is about being immersed (Some immerse in water - Jesus immerses/baptized us IN HIM - meaning we are IMMERSED/BAPTIZED at that moment in HIS HOLY SPIRIT -as opposed to His physical body)
So, in a nutshell, I believe we are 'baptized in the Holy Spirit' the moment we are saved - I know for myself, I never needed to speak in tongues to get set on FIRE
I believe 'Tongues' are actual earthly languages - ( Acts 2:6 -because that every man heard them speak in his own lang)
I Cor 13:8-10
whether there be tongues, they shall cease... but when that which is PERFECT (God's Word =The Bible) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (shortening verses because of space)
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I'll share some of my reasons regarding baptism
Matthew 3:11 - I indeeed baptize you with WATER unto repentance
Who is "I"? It is John the Baptist. What is he baptizing with? Water. Why? For 'repentance' (reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by commitment to and actual actions that show and prove a change for the better.)
Who was John baptizing? Jews..What were they repenting of? Dead WORKS
( Matt. 3:11) But he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST (Spirit), and with FIRE
Who was John talking about? Jesus .So Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and Fire (Fire is definitely not water)
Then Ephesians 4:4-5 says:
There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling;
ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism
1 = 1 Which baptism is it? by water? or By Fire(= Holy Spirit)?
If I have to pick ONE BAPTISM I choose Jesus'
Now, WHO had John the Bap. been baptizing? JEWS
Who did Jesus come for?
The Jews ( Matt. 15:24)
Who were the apostles first called to go to? The Jews ( Matt. 10:6)
So, Jesus and John the Bap. were just dealing with the Jews at the time (In fact, until He rose again - Jesus' ministry was primarily to the Jews - He even referred to the Gentiles as 'dogs' ( Matt. 15"26)
How does Jesus save? By Grace=NO more WORKS
How would the Jews get saved? By Grace, right?
They needed to turn (def. of 'repentance') away from depending on their works( Heb. 6"1) and depend solely on Jesus to be saved.
John baptized The Jews w/water to show they had repented from depending on the Law
The Gentiles never even knew about the law so they didn't need water baptism
Jesus didn't need the thief on the cross to be baptized by water
And so,water baptism is associated w/the Jews - & it was newly saved Jews who thought it was necc. for ALL, but Paul knew better ( I Cor. 1:17)
Sincer. KG
And as much as I would agree with you on the 'greater' importance to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (& after all this is the hallmark of the believer, & that which seals & secures him/her eternally), what then do you make of the NT Scriptures that still demonstrate water baptism? Of course, we have Jesus' Own Command to His disciples in Mt 28:19,20 (& I give a few Scriptures relating only to water baptism); Acts 2:38-41; 8:38; 16:33; 19:1-6; 1 Cor 13:13-16. And these were not just Jews only but Gentiles as well. And in any case, once a Jew turns to Christ, Christian baptism is still necessary to demonstrate the act of conversion.
How do you interpret these portions?
The only occasion that I could anticipate that a Christian would not need to be baptized in water would be where there was no one (e.g. an evangelist or personal witness) to share the Gospel with the unbeliever, & that enquiring soul, from the reading of the Word & moving of the Spirit, receives spiritual re-birth. A good example of this are the Apostles, (except Saul who was led to the Lord by Ananias ( Acts 9:1-18)). We never see any testimony or reference by the apostles to their water baptism. Why not? Because they were baptized with the Spirit at Pentecost & were never led to salvation. So, it seems that the one that leads a soul to salvation should ensure (i.e. obeying the command) that water baptism takes place forthwith as a testimony of the great transaction. Sadly, our Churches pay little regard to this clearly defined order & folk are baptized according to their wishes & even decades down the road. There seems little sense to me in doing it this way & may just be a form of 'works' in case "I don't make it to Heaven".
John the Baptist also baptized Jesus in water. As a dove the Holy Spirit pointed Jesus out. John prophesied, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.
If you go back into Discussions history pages you will see many pages on comment on this subject: through Jesus and all of his disciples and Paul.
We cannot understand the Bible fully unless we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why the Disciples were told by Jesus to await in the Upper Room.
The Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Godhead. When He came into the upper room the guys saw tongues of fire. They had a unique supernatural experience that was witnessed by a lot of people. How do you know they were all Jews? This event flowed out into the streets, such was the excitement. I'm sure there were some Gentiles in the area. What are the odds on that? It says they heard their own languages coming from the disciples mouths. It was a city; all kinds of people were around to witness this and Hear it.
It's recorded in the Bible. Jesus wanted this to happen just as it did. He said the Comforter would Come! The disciples KNEW this was the manifestation of what Jesus said! They were beyond JOY that Jesus was with them and in them in a very real way.
They were not alone, fearful, anymore. They had Jesus with them and in them again.
Look in your encyclopedic index in your Bible and look at the list of what all the Holy Spirits ministry is to believers! One: HE is our TEACHER who HELPS us rightly divide the WORD of TRUTH. (I AM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE). We need the Holy Spirit; and His Baptism.
If you are doubting about the gift of tongues; HE will not force it on you! It's for your edification. See? We have to learn from Him first. Be taught by Him. You have to study like a "student" and ask many many questions that are in your mind. And then you've got to get STILL before HIM and LISTEN to Him.
There is a passage where Martha was sitting at Jesus's feet, listening to what He was speaking. She gets scolded for not preparing a meal with the others. Jesus says something like, she has chosen the better portion.
That's why I try to show others what Jesus has said we are to be doing. Demonstrating our love for each other (as Gentiles) so that the Jews will see, wonder, and be envious of our relationship to our Beloved, our Savior Jesus, the long awaited for, Messiah.
There's this HUGE dynamic that very few people perceive. We're pounding on the scripture trying to excel past Jews who study endlessly; when it is the fellowship and brotherly & sisterly love, Jesus wants us to excel in. We're going to love them into the Kingdom by our love and obedience to the known will of God.
In Matthew 26, Jesus is having dinner with the Pharisees, elders, etc. Mary Magdalene comes in with this expensive pot of perfumed ointment. Read it. The Pharisees know Jesus will be arrested the next day! Yet they jump up and try to drag Mary out.
(This a memorial to her as Jesus said).
Jews still don't know they missed their Messiah! To this day. Although some of the returning Jews have become Christian in places where they lived.
Minister your love and worship to Jesus and all will be well spoken of you in heaven. There will be a reward for just loving, worshipping and not railing on Jews in public and in private. THEY will know Him by your LOVE for each other. NOT competition.
I apologize for preaching. I'm supposed to be having a quiet day. Thanks so much for your reply.
To the administrators of this site: I am thankful for and greatly appreciate it!
Sincerely,
KG
and then PAUL really gets the ball rolling and spreads the gospel to the Gentiles:
( Eph. 3:8 Unto ME, who am less than the least of all saints, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT *I* SHOULD PREACH AMONG the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ)
I just wanted to share my thoughts on water baptism and go no further, but I am so with you about the Comforter coming! and Jesus' disciples being beyond JOY when He arrived!!!
I guess though, I have to say - I believe, in this dispensation of GRACE - that when we are saved - at that moment -
we become "In Christ" -
( 2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new)
At the moment we are saved we are IN CHRIST - in other words, we are IMMERSED in HIM - and, as we all know, baptism is about being immersed (Some immerse in water - Jesus immerses/baptized us IN HIM - meaning we are IMMERSED/BAPTIZED at that moment in HIS HOLY SPIRIT -as opposed to His physical body)
So, in a nutshell, I believe we are 'baptized in the Holy Spirit' the moment we are saved - I know for myself, I never needed to speak in tongues to get set on FIRE
I believe 'Tongues' are actual earthly languages - ( Acts 2:6 -because that every man heard them speak in his own lang)
I Cor 13:8-10
whether there be tongues, they shall cease... but when that which is PERFECT (God's Word =The Bible) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (shortening verses because of space)
The Bible IS COME
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