Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

(Last Part)

But probably one of the most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power is Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God; and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.

That is my position. I don't believe I can lose it because I am trusting in the power of the one who has saved me, sealed me, and has promised not to lose me. I'm sitting there at the "will call" waiting for the one who purchased me to come pick up His possession.

(Part 4) John 17:11-12 also shows the keeping power of God. I believe in the permanency of salvation because the bible teaches that God is the one who saves and He does so from out of His mercy. According to Paul, in Ephesians 2:8, grace, faith, and salvation are gifted from God.

John says, in John 1:13, believers "were born, not from blood, nor from the will of the flesh, nor from the will of man, but from God." Therefore, from Scripture, a human being cannot save him/herself.I can't keep myself saved, so I have to trust God's power to keep me. John 10:27-29 is one of the most beautiful pieces of scripture that shows me that I am secure in Christ.

Also, Jude states in his doxology in Verse 24, "But to the one being able to keep you without stumbling and to set you before His glory blameless in exultation." Paul emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30.

Sorry this is long, but salvation is very important to me. One more post, I promise!

(Part 3)

Not only is God is the sole source of salvation, but every saved person is kept by the power of God. Peter writes, in 1 Peter 1:5, that believers are, "The ones who are being kept in the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Paul writes on the same subject, in Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are opposing to one another; in order that you should not do what you want." These scriptures show that believers cannot be taken away from Christ by the flesh, because the Spirit of God is dwelling within to prevent that from happening.

Jesus Himself said, in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and the one coming to me I will never cast out." He goes on to say in John 6:39, "And this is the will of the Father who has sent me, in order that of all which he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up in the last day."

(Part 2)

Once I was drawn to Christ by the Father and surrendered my life to Him, His Spirit came into my spirit and sealed me unto the day of redemption.

I belong to Christ. He purchased me, meaning he owns me. Paul said in Romans 8:9, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this one is not of Him." In Romans 8:14, he wrote, "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God."

In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul challenged the church at Corinth: "Examine yourselves, if you are in the faith; prove your own selves, or do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, except you are reprobates?" John, supported the same understanding in 1 John 3:24, and 1 John 4:13. Salvation happens only when God's Spirit enters and remains in a person's spirit, thereby causing spiritual birth. Nothing in the Bible teaches that salvation is accomplished by the repetition of the Sinner's Prayer or through the performance of any other kind of human formula.

Angela, people's salvation is the most important to me. Please let me share with you where I stand on salvation. I will have to break this up in order to explain my position. I am one of those that strongly believe that salvation cannot be lost. Emphasis on the ability to save has been shifted in recent years from God to man. As a result, the permanency of salvation has been called into question quite frequently. Many believe you can lose it, and many believe you can't.

For me, I have to ask myself who am I trusting? Am I trusting in myself to keep myself saved, or am I trusting God's promise to keep me saved? My salvation is based solely on God's Spirit coming into my spirit, causing me to become a new creation, a new person. My experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an act of God, not of myself. I would have never came to Christ if God the Father did not first draw me to Him. The salvation process begins with God the Father ( John 6:44).

Some argue once saved always saved and eternal security of the believer. Some use this grace as an excuse to sin.

I just know that the Bible says this:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

One can argue over the interpretation of who gets blotted out of the book of life. It is a scary thought to consider some names in the book of life could be blotted out. Who will these be? pray over it and ask.

I am not sure either.

You make a great point Bob. There are people who think since I am saved and I cannot lose my salvation, I can sin all I want because I'm covered. It's sad that people think that way, but they do. It should never be like that, ever. I don't understand how anyone who professes to be a believer, professes to follow Christ, and professes to love God would want to go out and sin anyways. Those who believe that way make me wonder if they're even saved at all.

Rev. 3:5 is a verse that has been such a blessing to me. When I read the phrase "He that overcomes" from the original language, I see it is a Present Participle, meaning the one (who is) overcoming. So, if I have Christ living inside of me, I am overcoming, and I will overcome, because He overcame, and He promises not to blot me out of the book of the Lamb, His book. I believe there are two books, the book of life which has listed in it everybody that has received human life. And then the book of the Lamb, those who belong to Christ.

Jesse, just wanted to thank you for your great posts (the last two specifically): I concur fully with your stand, in that God makes no mistakes - if He saves us, then His Salvation is complete & perfect. Nothing more can be added to guarantee or perfect it & if a believer errs in sin, the Spirit is quick to alert us & longs for our repentance & restoration. I think where we fail as Christians, is that we take it on ourselves to make a final judgement on who is a Christian. Often lovely spiritual words, buoyant ministry, & even demonstration of the Christ's graces leads us to accept that person as a brother or sister. When in reality, we are not called to judge others (in any form), but rather to judge ourselves as Paul did daily ( 1 Cor 9:24-27). Not that we should not consider each other as family, but ever remembering that it is only the Lord Who knows our hearts & we have not been put in a place of judgement of hearts by Him.

Chris: My brain was reworked to street preaching. Much easier than warning Christians. I make a list of people skipping their way to being weeded out as a goat. Then I sit on the floor by my bed and pray for them. I ask the Lord to send workers into the harvest to witness the love of God to them before it's too late. I thank Him for rescuing me and pulling me back with that shepherds pole. Our sinful slip ups help us reach out as a disciple of Jesus. Jesus was humble of heart, on task, merciful and knows what we need. He has never hit me in the face with the Bible. I only see lost people. If our prayer life is rich, the Holy Spirit will help us to think less about judging the sin and "come let us reason together; tho your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red as crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18, 43:26, 29:18.

There's a scripture about a full stall (kinda funny) but I view it as a productive prayer life. Jesus is interceding and so should we.

Chris,

Thank you so much for your encouraging words. I have been blessed by several answers you have posted. Very well said about His salvation being complete. Salvation is all of God. The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the sin to which we need to be saved from. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He designs it, and He brings it to its completion. My perspective on judging is that we are not to judge our brothers and sisters in Christ, but we are to be "Fruit Inspectors! Ye shall know them by their fruits. So even though I am not to judge you, per se, I'm still to inspect the fruit. And from what I see, you're relationship with Christ seems to be "Rock Solid." God Bless!

Jesse, I too appreciate your comments here & do always look for them, as from one who correctly divides the Word of God & has an intimate relationship with the Godhead. I know we may never agree on everything - who even does or can? - but what is essential is that His Word & His Love is enriching us daily & we together "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". The Lord give you His Grace & Wisdom in your life & your contributions here.

Adam, I too believe that it is "once saved, always saved". If it weren't, then the work at the Cross was defective & God's Eternal & Perfect Plan was not well thought through. The problems that are evident: do we recognize that God is truly the Judge of men's souls & has the Christian truly been saved by faith through the hearing of the Gospel? In relation to the first question: even before a supposed believer re-enters into a life of sin & rejection of the Godhead, God already knows the state of that soul. It is us who fall into error by giving a 'qualified' judgement of who is saved & who is not. Yes, we do accept one another as part of Gods Family, & so we should, as we are to also preach this challenge: "So you think you are a Christian - Why?". Secondly, how many out there believe they are Christians because of partaking in the ordinances, maybe a strong feeling, Church membership, in Christian service? The truly born again simply cannot be lost.

>If it weren't, then the work at the Cross was defective & God's Eternal & Perfect Plan was not well thought through.

Not well thought through? Just because a Christian still has freewill to sin, and just because some Christians do in fact commit blasphemy and just because God doesn't forgive you for it doesn't mean God's plan isn't well thought through or imperfect. Where does your criteria of what is 'not well thought through' come from?

The Bible is full of verses warning people to avoid sin. All the parables are warnings. Most people will go to hell whether people like it or not, whether PC or not. Sharing the gospel is to seek and save the lost. If Christians can never do any wrong, why did Jesus keep warning them to obey. What is the point of even trying if everyone is saved? So, a Christian can sin as much as they want- is that your belief? Is that what Jesus says in the Bible or did he actually say the opposite?

(from previous comment). 5. Christians can never do wrong. Christians can sin, but the Holy Spirit convicts & repentance must follow; the unbeliever or phony Christian has no such check, repentance or restoration. 6. Can a Christian sin as much as they want? Not possible. A Christian cannot pursue a life of sin: his works (manner of life) are proof of the genuineness of his conversion ( Rom 6; Gal 5:19-26). He can sin at times, hence the instructions & pleas by the Lord & the apostles to new & mature believers to abstain from all appearance of evil; how to deal with temptations; how to find victory. But the believer has to be on guard against Satan ( 1 Pet 5:8) & to "work out (attention to) his own salvation with fear & trembling" ( Phil 2:12). A constant warfare, requiring vigilance, but the believer remains secure in God's Perfect Plan for him.

Adam, I'll only address the 'apparent' errors I make in my comments.

1. Freewill. Yes, all Christians & unsaved have a freewill (to sin). 2. Blasphemy. Not possible for Christians. Blasphemy is the accusation one makes against the Holy Spirit that Jesus' Works are generated from Satan ( Mt 12:24-32). 3. God's non-forgiveness to blasphemers. As above: Christians cannot blaspheme. 4. "Not well thought through". The purpose of my phrase was that God's Plan of Salvation WAS well thought through, but IF His Plan allowed for a (truly) saved person to be lost, then the Work of the Cross has failed in that person's salvation. God's Plan is Perfect, "all that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me...I will in no wise cast out" ( Jn 6:37); "sealed with the Holy Spirit" ( Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22). (see next comment).

Hi Chris, thanks for your response. I think the OSAS view contradicts itself and contradicts scripture.

The statement "Christians cannot blaspheme" contradicts Christians having freewill. Either Christians have freewill or don't. Some people were Christians then denounced it, like Marilyn Manson, Hitler, among many others. So we have the personal evidence on Earth, and scripture evidence including Matthew 10:33 and many others.

> "But the believer has to be on guard against Satan ( 1 Peter 5:8) & to "work out (attention to) his own salvation with fear & trembling" ( Philippians 2:12). A constant warfare, requiring vigilance, but the believer remains secure in God's Perfect Plan for him."

These verses also contradict the OSAS movement. If a Christian is already saved why would they need to be on guard? What is there to 'work out' if salvation is already decided?