Bible Discussion Thread

Adam, re: Jn 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law ( Mt 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes ( Rom 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death ( 2 Cor 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Rom 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).

I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.

Hi Chris,

I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.

The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.

So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.

May God bless you...

Page 3.

So, in essence, it encompasses all the Law & much, much more, as the Spirit calls for that 'higher level of spiritual living & obedience' that the Law could never give & the Jew could never perform. Does all this then give the possibility of believers becoming 'slack' in their faith, believing that, e.g. "I can steal (or, whatever sin), because the Spirit hasn't convicted me or shown me otherwise"? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation; if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place (this is of course, references our other discussion on a believer's Eternal Security). I'll leave it here: my 'short' explanation has turned out otherwise.

The Lord be with your spirit Adam.

part 4:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - talks about temptation. If a Christian can't sin and is saved regardless then what is the reason to avoid temptation? Why would it matter?

If all the Christians were already saved then why would Paul wrote so many books to each of them to encourage them to stay the course, run the race, to avoid sin, and be obedient. Why? If they're already saved, what's the point?

You know that most of the New Testament books are written to Christians, right? 1 Corinthians is literally to the church of Corinth as said in 1:2. If they're all saved regardless, then why write a book, why spread the gospel, why why why?

Earlier it was mentioned that following God is like disrespecting the cross. No, it's the opposite. Not obeying Jesus is like slapping Him in the face and disregarding all he has done.

How can you tell who is a Christian? The Bible says by their fruit which is very similar to works. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Maybe my opinion will give you something to consider or maybe not. I did spend a long time sharing all this to you specifically in brotherly love. I think God really absolutely hates sin, and sin is NOT allowed in heaven and most people will go to hell, including disobedient Christians as it warns against in Matthew 7:21. Most of Jesus's parables are warnings which include to Christians, most of the teachings are to Christians, this is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Many will be deceived and will choose not believe the Bible. God bless...

Adam, I appreciate the time you've taken. Sadly, we're in disagreement to a degree. One thing is for sure: I believe in the believer's eternal security & you don't, & I accept that, because I too once shared that position. So I won't bring that up here. But to your other points, briefly.

1. my position on obedience to the Ten Commandments is also shared by many & this is nothing new. It is a matter of understanding Law & Grace & the perils of fusing them together.

2. about Satan's deceptions, to this I would agree. But of course, from the 'camp' that I rest in, we would vigorously stand against Satan's deceptions in the other 'camp'. So, no conviction of error borne here.

3. true, Rom 6:2 was quoted, but the second quote is mine as a response to the first. And this was said to affirm that, if we are dead to sin, it is impossible to live any longer therein. Paul isn't talking about isolated sins, for which we immediately repent & are forgiven, but to those who desire to continue in that lifestyle of sin. This is impossible & this would be the expected response to Paul's question.

4. Judas, nor the disciples could be considered Christians; Christians are such because of the indwelling Holy Spirit post Crucifixion & Resurrection of our Lord. As well, I don't want to be repetitive with correctly dividing between the Old & New Testaments - true Jesus' Words/Parables were spoken to the Jews in relation to Kingdom Life & their behaviour, but all this was a precursor to the great power from His shed Blood & the power of the Holy Spirit which would change some of his hearers, including his carnal disciples.

5. we accept others as fellow Christians as we should & because we aren't in a position to judge them. Only God knows. What if that 'believer' rejects Christ in toto? Why do we then decide to look at that sad situation from our perspective & not God's? Let us look at it as God does. Can you or I ever know the state of one responding to an altar call? I don't.

Hi Chris,

part 3:

> if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place

This seems like a tough position to take, because it appears to contradict itself at every angle. For example: what/who is a Christian, to you? Can you give a precise and reliable definition of a Christian?

What if someone you believe is a Christian who meets the criteria you believed was set for one later turned out to turn away from Christ and continue in willful sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26 then you say they were never a Christian in the first place, but why weren't they? I know of Christians who are husbands, dads, pastors, youth ministers, worship leaders, who have each turned from Christianity. There's even a forum online for ex-Christians who have left the faith. So, you say they never were Christian in the first place even after all they did as Christians. So, does that mean someone who only responds to an altar call and prays and gives their heart to Jesus isn't Christian either? What exactly is a Christian?

Even angels in heaven (they're already in heaven) have freewill to sin and turn from God. If even angels have freewill while in heaven, of course mankind does on Earth when God specifically gave mankind the freedom to choose good or evil, to choose love or hate. We're not robots. Just like if you're a dad it's more meaningful if your son/daughter voluntarily says 'I love you', God gave us freewill to choose if we want to be with him or not, to love Him or not, to obey Him or not. It's our choice and we'll also be judged. I suppose if you believe you "can't" sin that doesn't jibe with judgment day either. If we're already saved, what's the point of being judged for our actions?

Secondly, it sounds like you don't believe Christians have freewill if you they can't sin. To say we don't have freewill is to contradict other verses.

Part 2:

The second observation is your quote:

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation;

The first part is a scripture Romans 6:2, but your 2nd sentence is not in the Bible. It does not say that after Romans 6:2 and I don't believe a Christian sinning is impossible. Even Paul admits to sin and all Christians sin, so to claim Christians can't sin seems inconsistent with the Bible. Here are a few examples:

-Much of Jesus's teachings were to his existing followers, including many warnings to not go astray and to 'do things'. If all his Christian followers were already saved then why would Jesus ask them to keep doing things? Why change at all? Why even preach the gospel? Why have a Bible? Why try? I have never heard anyone who believes OSAS have a clear answer for this. If Christians don't need to avoid sin because they're saved regardless why would anything in the Bible even matter? It does matter, because the Bible clearly says obeying God is important. If you don't obey then you don't love Jesus and aren't following Jesus much.

-Most of Jesus's parables were about how most people will go to hell and how to avoid it. Jesus called people to put forth effort, to change, to take action. If taking action wasn't important or even related to salvation then why would Jesus keep saying it was like in Matthew 7:21? This verse would have to be reinterpreted, discredited, or thrown out to believe that obeying God is bad. Is God likely to say that obeying him is bad or is satan more likely to say that?

-Judas was a Christian and he betrayed Jesus and died a horrible death and likely went to hell.

-People are given freewill. We're not robots. The Bible already says all sin. Anyone claiming Christians can't sin is claiming we don't have freewill. Hebrews 10:26.

"People are given freewill." Really? Free of what? Anyone claiming we have a free will is saying we are free of sin and not dead in trespasses and sin, before being saved, so who needs Christ?

GENESIS 1:26. And God said, Let US make man in OUR faith image, after our likeness: and let THEM have dominion over .... creation. (Not other people of color)

God is Spirit (no color)

Holy Spirit (no color)

Jesus (Mary's color)

The 3 persons of the Godhead have WILLS. It was given to Adam and Eve. They could obey God's will; OR do what they did: disobey God's will (for them) which they did with Satans encouragement; deception.

In addition, satan has a will. He was a created Archangel; covering Cherub. His speeches start with I WILL. He's the evil that hurts people. He never does anything Good. He wills to crush Gods children.

He thought he had killed the Son of God. Imagine his grief when Jesus walked out of the grave.

Look up the scriptures to prove me right or in error.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing your explanation. I know you won't change your position and I certainly won't change mine. Each time I read through the Bible my position is only reinforced and each time I pray and ask God to reveal the truth and wisdom in understanding it seems confirmed. So, discussing further isn't likely to bear any fruit. I'm just curious why some passionately spread such an opinion, however, because the risk/reward doesn't seem to balance out. I believe Satan likes deceiving people as he is the great deceiver and liar. He even works to attack Christians' beliefs but they aren't aware of it. So, if there's 2 very different beliefs about salvation, one of them is true and one is false. If satan were to deceive one person into believing a lie, which is more likely: 1) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into being more obedient to God than they actually need to? or 2) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into disobeying God, despite scripture like John 14:15?

Page 2.

And in the case of observance of the Sabbath (which is the commandment that is somewhat extraordinary in the list of commands given, as it is specifically incumbent upon Israel), the keeping of it is mandatory, if the believer is to be totally obedient to all of God's Laws. Hence, 'Sabbath keepers', & all who adhere to obedience to the Ten Commandments are constrained to keep the Sabbath as Holy, without exception. Conversely, those in my understanding, who refuse to keep that Sabbath Law because of reasons cited, would also be hypocritical if they kept the other 'Nine" & left out the 'One'.

So where does this leave us. As far as your understanding & performance of your faith is concerned, I cannot be in a position to answer. But in my understanding & vehement belief, that since God's Salvation through His Son, is only by His Grace & through our Faith in response (& even this Faith is His Gift to us), then obedience to His 'written' Laws not only leads one to knowledge of his own failure to keep them & resultant 'death', but also remains totally incompatible to the Law of Grace as the two are attempted to fusion. What then is the Law of Grace = Law of (Christ's) Spirit? It is the Whole Law of God, not bound by the Ten Commandments & rigid obedience to it which only led to death, but that which is written in our hearts & interpreted for us by His Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". (onto Page 3).

Page 1.

Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.

A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.

Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.

(onto Page 2).

Hi Chris and Adam,

I wondered whether to put my two cents in where it may not be welcomed, especially after the matter had been settled between you two, which is always a good thing, whether an agreement or not, I learned a lot by reading this thread, but it brought to mind that Scripture " John 10:28-30 (NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

My mother would drill that Scripture into my head, over and over, while I was growing up, "If you are truly His, NOBODY will be able to pluck you out of God's hands." Which was comforting to me.

I guess that's why I found this thread so fascinating, loosing one's faith verses eternal security, but I have to say, God knows the heart, ( Jeremiah 17:10)

I was saved at twelve, I remember it very well, I was saved completely, and read my Bible all the time, was zealous to the things of God, but through-out my life, I was never the 'perfect' Christian, by some in church today, but God loved me anyway, and for some strange reason, He has chose me to minister to those who are broken, in a world that rather ignore them, even in the church. I guess, there's a purpose for everything.

Now, back to why I decided to respond, you two are brilliant men of God, I hope and pray you continue to grow in the knowledge, grace, and wisdom God has given you, and not let a disagreement grow to resentment.

Thanks again for everything,

Etta

Hello, cherry picked verses can often lose context. For example: John 10:28, if you read before it, in verse 25 Jesus says his own works bears witness (fruit) of Him (same as with Christians), verse 27 says his sheep hears His voice and follow Him- that's an active pursuit requiring action on the part of the followers, just like to follow Jesus it requires action as a Christian. And 28 He will give them eternal life. Eternal life is given after judgment, but some are claiming they have eternal life BEFORE they're even judged regardless of their fruit or blasphemy, etc. Mt 12:32 clearly says anyone who commits blasphemy will not be forgiven, not only on earth now, but in the future.