Bible Discussion Thread

Joshua on Colossians 1:15 brought up an interesting question. Who is Jesus? Is He God Devine or a created being God promoted to a higher position? There is a related Central theme in Scripture we often don't pay a lot of attention to. Even Preachers seem to skip over it when referencing it. But if you don't fully understand it, the rest of Scripture becomes difficult.

I am asking the following question for all who would like to respond, on Colossians 1:16,

"For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and FOR Him."

I have discussed this a little with others, but I would like to look at it on its own. From:

PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION

Book

Q: What does the word FOR mean? What does it mean that all things were created FOR Him?

Carlos, here is what I get from Colossians 1:16:

For by Him, or more literally, in Him. There's a prepositional word there that means in. In Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, and that's lordships, or principalities, or authorities:

So He's made everything, both visible and invisible. I look back to Ephesians 6:12 and I see that these listings of dominions, principalities, and powers are ranks of angels. Angels have military rank, both good angels and evil.

Paul says, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The word high places in the Greek means spirit realm. So it seems as though angels have rank.

But the emphasis here is that in Christ, all things were created, both visible and invisible. Things that are in heaven and things that are upon the earth, all the spiritual creatures, angels, were created in Him. All things were created by Him, and that's the word through. In Greek, it is DIA with the Genitive. All things were created through Him, and for Him: that's the preposition EIS, meaning unto Him, or for Him.

I'm just sharing what I see from that Verse, not looking for a long drawn out discussion, but just sharing my understanding. I am however curious to see how others see this verse.

Jesse, you have dissected Colossians 1:16 indisputably well. However, what I am focused on is the "Unto Him", the "For Him" statement in the verse.

What could Paul have meant by stating that all things were created "Unto" Him?

Romans 11:36 says essentially the same thing.

Carlos,

Okay, here are my thoughts on what Paul may have meant by the words "unto" and "for" Him. Again, these are just my thoughts.

First of all, I see the comparison to Romans 11:36, so I thought I would take that and maybe share something you might be looking for, unless you already know the answer. In Romans 11:36, the words "of Him" is literally "out of Him" as a source. For out of Him, and through Him, He is the sustainer of all things. Everything has come from Him. He is the source of all things.

When I go to Hebrews Chapter 1, it tells me that all things, the epics of history and time are being carried along by the word of God. The word of God is holding all things together, carrying history along, according as God designed it. Romans 11:36 also says, and to Him, which is literally the word EIS with the accusative in the Greek. To Him! He is the significance in everything. Everything is for Him.

And I just sit back and wonder what He is doing with my life because there are things I just don't understand? But when I realize that He has a purpose and will for my life, and He has set me apart for his purposes, even if I don't understand what it is, I am content because I know He is in control. I have to live by faith, and even He is the source of that faith. I don't have to understand. All I know is that everything has been designed by Him, and that He sustains everything, that His Spirit carries out His will, and everything is for His purposes. I might not understand most of all that God does in my life until I go to be with Him, but that's fine with me.

So I think what Paul was saying is that all things were created for His (Christ's) purposes. Maybe that's still not what you are looking for, I don't know. You have a great evening!

Jesse, I couldn't agree more. As you say, "everything has been designed by Him, and that He sustains everything, that His Spirit carries out His will, and everything is for His purposes. So I think what Paul was saying is that all things were created for His (Christ's) purposes."

That is exactly what I am getting at. Now, the question is, What is His purpose for creation? Or with creation? More simply stated, what did God create everything for?

Carlos,

Are you asking this because you honestly do not know the answer? Or, are you asking for a different reason or motive? I have nothing more to add other than He created all things for His glory. That's about as deep as I feel comfortable going.

That's fine, Jesse. Thank you.

God created us for his pleasure and glory. Isaiah 43:7

Adam, good point on Isaiah 43:7. But what does that mean? What is Glory and what is Pleasure? Philosophically and Theologically speaking, God is Self-Sufficient. He doesn't lack anything and He doesn't need anything. He doesn't need love. He doesn't need to be loved. He doesn't need Pleasure? How would you define Pleasure? God also doesn't have a need to be Glorified. We praise Him because of who He is and what He does. But does He need our accolades? Does God have a need to feel good about Himself?

Pleasure and Glory are vague terms. How do you define them? Thanks. Good point.

Carlos, I agree with you on the Self-sufficiency of God: that He needs nothing else to add to His Person or Character, that He is fully content within Himself & His Wisdom requires nothing from an outside source to enlighten Him or to reassess His Purposes for Heaven & the Universe. But He is a God of Love, nay, God is Love ( 1 Jn 4:8). In His Self-sufficiency, His very Being is essentially both Spirit & Love: without one or both, He is not God & thus non-existent.

If then His Essence is Love, His Actions stem out of that Love, to extend that Love to all, to require that Love in His Creation, & to receive that Love in return; & these are all hallmarks of love ( 1 Jn 4:16). I see that if one of these requirements of Love is missing, then the "God is Love" Truth equates to 'God has Love within Him but requires no reciprocal response', however weak our love may be. But if a response from us is required, then it must prove that this God, Whose very Essence is Love, also sees our returned love as something He needs to receive & respond to. Is then His Response simply from a judicial position of checking off that a person has done his bit with love, or does God have a 'delight & sense of inward satisfaction & joy' when love is reciprocated?

In a sense, God doesn't need Pleasure from expressed love or even a sense of euphoria in an outstanding act of love or devotion (& some even dare to suggest that He rests back on His Throne & exudes uncontrollable laughter & frivolity over some human act), but His very Nature demonstrates His Great & Perfect Love (in Holiness), & that in seriousness & satisfaction, He receives our Love in return. I believe that our Father delights immensely in the love given to Him, especially when deeply rooted in the reason for that 'agape' love: His Son's Love at the Cross.

"God doesn't need to be glorified". What do we make of Jn 12:28; 13:31,32; 17:1? Do we sense that the Father receives our worship & His need to be glorified in us is paramount?

Thank you for your response, Chris. That was Really enlightening! You've pointed out a truth that gives us a lot to think about. I couldn't agree more. Love is one, if not the most significant characteristic or attribute of God. Were it not for His love, where would we be. I don't mean to diminish the fact God deserves and gets Glory, Exaltation, Recognition, Praise, Thanks, Appreciation for whom He is and what He has done. Ephe 2:4-10 says:

"But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life."

But isn't His Love married to Wisdom and Righteousness? In Prov 3:19, we see that, "The LORD founded the earth by wisdom and established the heavens by understanding." And 8:17-23, "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.... The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

Prov 8 is generally accepted as a description of Christ. Clearly, everything God does is motivated by Love. But Love with Wisdom and Justice.

What I would like to get at is what the Bible reveals about What God created us for in that Love. There's a persistent question people ask. That is, if God, why evil? Perhaps this is too philosophical, but it is important. Why does evil exist, if God is Love? The notion that we have Choice or Free Will, isn't enough.

Hi Carlos, just because God is self sufficient doesn't mean He can't make stuff if He wants. He also doesn't owe us an explanation for WHY, nor are we entitled to know. However, He already said He made us for his glory in Isaiah 43:7.

In my personal, unproven, and non-biblical opinion, I think we were made for His glory and enjoyment and that when we voluntarily with free will and faith choose to Love God and obey Him that it is a pleasure to Him. Perhaps it's like being a parent and if your kids voluntarily tell you they love you and you 100% know it's real, that you didn't coerce them to say that, and that they're not a puppet or robot under your own control. God didn't make robots. It's more meaningful if people voluntarily choose to love.

Your other point was does God have a need to feel good about Himself? Probably not, but doing something that feels good doesn't automatically mean you're insecure about it or NEED it.

The Bible does indicate God does have human-like emotions/feelings, however, like Deuteronomy 32:16. And we're made in His likeness, which may include feelings.

Adam,

Do you think that God will accept our faith and love toward Him if it's voluntary faith and love? If I volunteer to put my faith in God and I volunteer to love God, that's not the faith and love that the bible speaks of. To volunteer to do something takes human effort, and I don't believe that our human effort pleases God at all. Do you know that there are two types of faith, and two types of love? God only accepts one of the two. If we volunteer to love Him and volunteer to put our faith in Him, He's not going to accept that one.

Hi Jesse, we don't believe the same things. I believe everyone, including Christians, has freewill and there's lots of Biblical support for that like Joshua 24:15, Psalm 119:30. Freewill = voluntary choice. People have the freewill to choose to follow Jesus or not. So, yes our faith and love to God is voluntary. This is why Jesus gave so many warnings and parables about the gate being narrow going to heaven and wide the gate going to destruction. It's why Jesus kept challenging people to avoid sin, to obey and why he said this: John 14:15. If we were predestined robots with no freewill then Jesus likely wouldn't say all that. Instead he'd say everyone is free to do whatever, because it doesn't matter, sin is ok because everyone is going to heaven anyway, but obviously that's not the message. Satan wants everyone to think they don't need to take any action at all as a Christian, but just do nothing. But a Christian is literally a Christ-follower, and following is an action requiring movement in Jesus's direction. The more I read the Bible and the more I pray to God asking for wisdom and understanding in the scriptures the more He reinforces this truth. I'm already aware that some Christians don't believe this and I'm already aware of the points used for that view and I believe its unbiblical. God bless.

Adam,

Until you can differentiate between human love/human faith, and the faith/love that the bible speaks of, we probably are not going to agree with each other on this one. What I am trying to tell you is that the faith and love that the bible speaks of is produced only by God's Spirit. No matter how hard we try, we cannot produce that type of faith or that type of love. So when we are volunteering to love God, or if our faith is voluntary, God will not accept that because it's not of His Spirit, but of our own human effort. You can call it free will if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is you doing it out of your own human effort, volunteering to love God. And He will not accept that. I think if my children were to tell me that they were volunteering to love me, that would be heartbreaking. To me, that wouldn't be genuine love. I'm just trying to help you out here!

I disagree with this of course.