Warning: session_start(): open(/var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80/sess_s35ecbpkcvjdr02iejuq3h4gcp, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2
Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 133599
I would just like to touch on the sin issue. Something to consider when asking about what is sin and what is not is that in Romans 14:23, it says for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. That is a powerful statement. Anything that is not of faith is sin. And since the literal definition of the word faith means persuasion, anything that is not prompted by God's Spirit is sin. It is God's Spirit in us that persuades us to do the things that are pleasing to Him. That's what it is saying. That's what faith is.
Faith is the persuasion and leading of God's Spirit. And anything that is not of faith is sin. So there's your definition. So whatever it is, ask yourself if God's Spirit is persuading you to do that. If it's not His Spirit persuading you, then it is sin. That's just something we have to ask ourselves, no matter what it is we are partaking of. It's a personal relationship between you and Jesus Christ. What is He persuading you to do? Do that. Anything else is sin!
1. No. Jesus made wine; just don't get drunk and don't use it to tempt or cause others to stumble.
2. No.
3. If we're actively following Jesus then we're covered by grace and have hope for eternal life in heaven. We should obey God's laws, but since all are imperfect sinners we are covered by grace when we sin. The law still applies, but is fulfilled in that we aren't subject to its original punishment of death, but life with Jesus. James 2 and Romans 6 explain this.
Explain in detail when you said the old testement still applies. I hear pastors, say we are under the new covenant or new testiment and not the old testimement or old covenant/mosaic laws. What in the old testiment is still applicable?
Neither. Because the Law of the Life-giving Spirit has taken those righteous commandments of God & now written them in our hearts ( Heb 10:16). Isn't this then the same thing as being obedient to the Law? No, when we obey the Holy Spirit & not looking to the letter of the Law, our obedience to God then comes out of a renewed heart/spirit that has all that is necessary to obey Him. And this also includes the Fruit of the Spirit, walking in the Spirit & the Law of the Spirit & the Law of Liberty (Js 2:12). So when the Law says, Do not kill, we now know that it also applies to those who are angry with another without cause. When the Law says, Do not commit adultery, it now means even just the act of looking at a woman with lust ( Mt 5:21,22,28,29). If we want to buy a bunch of grapes, are we immediately convicted if we want to just take one to check if it is sweet? Or, do we justify our actions?
We have never denied the righteousness of God's Laws, but the Scripture tells us that only through Jesus we can be saved & only by His Spirit we can keep God's Laws that went beyond the letter & that which is now inscribed in our hearts. So even if we didn't have Scriptures as mentioned in Matthew 5 to teach us, I know we would still be aware of its Truth as the Spirit teaches us God's Holy demands upon us. We don't need to know God's Laws as they are already written in our hearts & we can choose to obey to enjoy God's fellowship & favour or disobey so allowing our sinful nature to resurrect itself.
Mercy Seat ( 1 Jn 2:1. God now meets us through Christ Who is our Mercy Seat, for the expiation of our sins & averting the Wrath of God from us).
So, it is only through Christ that we can see God's Holy requirement for His people (Jew & Gentile alike). If God saw us through the keeping (obedience) to the OT Law, then the Cross of Christ is made pointless & of no effect. Hence, Rom 8:3 reminds us that the Law was weak through the flesh (i.e. inadequate/ineffective because of our inability to fulfil the whole Law). If we sinned in even one aspect of the Law, we have sinned in all (Js 2:10). There was nothing wrong with the Law: it was our inability to keep the whole Law that proved our sinfulness, which meant that God had to send His Son, His Word in the flesh to take the punishment for us. Why? So that the righteousness of the Law might then be fulfilled in us & not in the keeping of the Law.
Are they correct, who say that we must obey the Law? If they maintain that we have to obey God's Law to the letter as well as being saved by grace through faith, then that belief is in direct violation to the meaning of the Cross & what the apostles preached & gave their lives for. In biblical terms, we never have to obey God's Laws as given to Israel to be right before God, because they could never work; we now look to Jesus Who fulfilled those righteous Laws in Himself, so that our focus is not on the letter but on the spirit of the law. So, Rom 8:1,2 gives the best description (transliterated): we who believe in Christ are no longer condemned by the Law, because we now live by the Spirit of God. Why? Because the LAW OF THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT has set us free from the Law that only showed us our sin & brought death. And so how does this work out in our obedience to God? Do we still come by faith in Jesus & obey the Law to complement it? Or, if that is harsh, then maybe we just keep the Laws in our minds to guide us in our Christian walk? (onto Page 3.)
Teboho, what has been suggested to you concerning obedience to the Law is not entirely correct as far as the biblical meaning & application are concerned. Maybe it's only on a technical point but when it comes to such an important subject, we need to understand the Scriptures correctly so there is not only no confusion in our minds but also to others when they hear/read this message. So, in defence of the Word on this subject, I submit the following for your consideration & comparison to what you have heard elsewhere.
I doubt if anyone who truly believes in God, in His Son & the Word, could ever say that 'Christians are free to do whatever they like since we are not under the law': this is called antinomianism ("freed from moral law by virtue of the Grace given in & through Christ"). To say this, shows our gross misunderstanding of God's Laws, Whose "Laws are holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Rom 7:12).
So the questions that we need to ask & address: what are the Laws of God, to whom were they given & what was their purpose? We know that all the Laws given to Israel (as shown in Exodus & Leviticus mainly) were given to them & not to the Gentiles (these were not God's chosen people & not in God's (OT) view for blessing & eternal life). These Laws (the whole Law, including those pertaining to ceremony, festivals, daily life), including circumcision, these made Israel distinct from everyone else, as well as the Tabernacle with the Mercy Seat, where God met with His people. So, all the commandments given to Israel, not only identified them as God's Chosen, but also, through prophecy, pointed to a later, perfect fulfilment of them. Therefore, we understand that God's Son, Jesus Christ, was sent in complete fulfilment of those prophecies, whether in the Law ( Mt 5:17), Circumcision (not cut in the flesh but in the heart by Christ's sacrifice & worshipping God in the spirit, Phil 3:3-5; Col 2:11), (cont'd on Page 2.)
Wherefore the law (Ten Commandments). was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If you broke even one of the Ten Commandments, you were guilty of all.
Then Jesus gave us 2 new commandments; that if we live our lives by them, we won't need the Ten to teach us again.
It's a process of becoming free to love one another. A prophetic gifting doesn't give us permission to trample on others who have no clue. Love goes where law can't. Most unsaved people know they are sinners. The need to know about Grace; unmerited favor of God.
If you're grafted into God, you'll produce fruit of the new Life.
It's not a matter of the Old Testament no longer having relevance anymore. It does. There are many scriptures there, about Jesus before He was born as the Son of Man.
Also, scripture to us about conditions preceding the End of Days. There are plenty of those in both Testaments. Proverbs are excellent for anyone needing Wisdom; help in living alongside foolish unsaved people. Jesus never railed on people: His heart was Mercy and Righteousness. He wanted to come and set us free from the taskmaster of trying to obey the Torah. NOW Jesus is the only sacrifice that God accepts. He came to earth, fulfilled every jot and tittle of The Law; and sat down at the right Hand of God; the work complete.
He is now everyone's ADVOCATE (or attorney), when Satan comes Accusing us of gross or little sin, Before Almighty God!! Jesus consults in the Lambs Book of Life (names of the saved)....He says this one is MINE. God says: CASE DISMISSED!!! All of your days on earth are recorded in a Book; including your day of birth & death. The Book Of Remembrance: has all the things you have Spoken out loud about God and Jesus.
Tell someone about Jesus and what He's done for you. Even strangers.
Hello, yes, I believe the whole Bible applies. I've heard people claim that Jesus fulfilling the law is abolishing the law, that it no longer applies whatsoever. Jesus already said that is wrong in the exact same verse of Matthew 5:17. He said he was not abolishing the law. So, I believe Jesus over what random people say. Fulfilling the law was through his death to pay for our sins, so we have grace as long as we follow Jesus- this is an active pursuit though. But that doesn't mean the law is gone. Keep in mind that Israelites has more than just moral law, but civil law, and ceremonial law. We don't need to follow the Israelite specific laws, just moral law. For example, 'do not kill'. Are some claiming that it's now just fine to kill your neighbor because Jesus fulfilled the law? That would be a very difficult argument for one to make that it's totally good to kill, when the Bible clearly says the opposite.
Jesus already said what happens to people who are inactive, who do nothing, who blaspheme, who follow the world, who use grace as an excuse to sin as much as possible Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus says if you love him, then keep his commandments. John 14:15. If you don't keep them, you don't love him. If you don't love him and don't follow him, is it likely you'll be invited to spend eternity with him in heaven? Jesus warned his followers repeatedly through parables that most people will go to hell. It's interesting how some Christians are trying to claim sin is okay, that it doesn't matter and that it's wrong to say it's wrong. Satan is the great deceiver and even works within the community of believers to spread his lies. It's clear what Jesus already said, so I'm going to believe and follow him and his words, not the words of man.
James 2 and Romans 6 explain this.
Note that this is my belief through years of Bible study and prayer and you will have other Christians claim otherwise. I already know all their arguments and find them unbiblical. God bless...
Many thanks for the detailed explanation. Are you then able to provide me with a simple interpretation of Romans chapt 10 vs 4. I believe the view that the new testiment is replaced by the old testement is confused by the above. Hence require an interpretation of this.
I think the word 'end' here is similar to the word fulfill. Paul wrote Romans and is not saying it's ok to sin. We're saved by grace, but this is provided we are a Christian following Christ. Notice what Paul writes in the next chapter: Romans 11:19-23 "...if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." To me this is similar to Paul saying Romans 6:1. Warning against people who want to abuse the gift. Also similar to Hebrews 10:26. Romans 7 and James 2 explain this. Paul struggles with sin as he says in Romans 7:15 and is trying hard to obey and avoid sin. Rom 7:12 Paul says the law is holy, just and good. God bless...
2) Is true that it is a sin not to Tithe.
3) What does the scripture that says 'I have come not to replace the law and the prophets but to fullfil it etc mean?
Kind Regards
I would just like to touch on the sin issue. Something to consider when asking about what is sin and what is not is that in Romans 14:23, it says for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. That is a powerful statement. Anything that is not of faith is sin. And since the literal definition of the word faith means persuasion, anything that is not prompted by God's Spirit is sin. It is God's Spirit in us that persuades us to do the things that are pleasing to Him. That's what it is saying. That's what faith is.
Faith is the persuasion and leading of God's Spirit. And anything that is not of faith is sin. So there's your definition. So whatever it is, ask yourself if God's Spirit is persuading you to do that. If it's not His Spirit persuading you, then it is sin. That's just something we have to ask ourselves, no matter what it is we are partaking of. It's a personal relationship between you and Jesus Christ. What is He persuading you to do? Do that. Anything else is sin!
2. No.
3. If we're actively following Jesus then we're covered by grace and have hope for eternal life in heaven. We should obey God's laws, but since all are imperfect sinners we are covered by grace when we sin. The law still applies, but is fulfilled in that we aren't subject to its original punishment of death, but life with Jesus. James 2 and Romans 6 explain this.
God bless
Neither. Because the Law of the Life-giving Spirit has taken those righteous commandments of God & now written them in our hearts ( Heb 10:16). Isn't this then the same thing as being obedient to the Law? No, when we obey the Holy Spirit & not looking to the letter of the Law, our obedience to God then comes out of a renewed heart/spirit that has all that is necessary to obey Him. And this also includes the Fruit of the Spirit, walking in the Spirit & the Law of the Spirit & the Law of Liberty (Js 2:12). So when the Law says, Do not kill, we now know that it also applies to those who are angry with another without cause. When the Law says, Do not commit adultery, it now means even just the act of looking at a woman with lust ( Mt 5:21,22,28,29). If we want to buy a bunch of grapes, are we immediately convicted if we want to just take one to check if it is sweet? Or, do we justify our actions?
We have never denied the righteousness of God's Laws, but the Scripture tells us that only through Jesus we can be saved & only by His Spirit we can keep God's Laws that went beyond the letter & that which is now inscribed in our hearts. So even if we didn't have Scriptures as mentioned in Matthew 5 to teach us, I know we would still be aware of its Truth as the Spirit teaches us God's Holy demands upon us. We don't need to know God's Laws as they are already written in our hearts & we can choose to obey to enjoy God's fellowship & favour or disobey so allowing our sinful nature to resurrect itself.
Mercy Seat ( 1 Jn 2:1. God now meets us through Christ Who is our Mercy Seat, for the expiation of our sins & averting the Wrath of God from us).
So, it is only through Christ that we can see God's Holy requirement for His people (Jew & Gentile alike). If God saw us through the keeping (obedience) to the OT Law, then the Cross of Christ is made pointless & of no effect. Hence, Rom 8:3 reminds us that the Law was weak through the flesh (i.e. inadequate/ineffective because of our inability to fulfil the whole Law). If we sinned in even one aspect of the Law, we have sinned in all (Js 2:10). There was nothing wrong with the Law: it was our inability to keep the whole Law that proved our sinfulness, which meant that God had to send His Son, His Word in the flesh to take the punishment for us. Why? So that the righteousness of the Law might then be fulfilled in us & not in the keeping of the Law.
Are they correct, who say that we must obey the Law? If they maintain that we have to obey God's Law to the letter as well as being saved by grace through faith, then that belief is in direct violation to the meaning of the Cross & what the apostles preached & gave their lives for. In biblical terms, we never have to obey God's Laws as given to Israel to be right before God, because they could never work; we now look to Jesus Who fulfilled those righteous Laws in Himself, so that our focus is not on the letter but on the spirit of the law. So, Rom 8:1,2 gives the best description (transliterated): we who believe in Christ are no longer condemned by the Law, because we now live by the Spirit of God. Why? Because the LAW OF THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT has set us free from the Law that only showed us our sin & brought death. And so how does this work out in our obedience to God? Do we still come by faith in Jesus & obey the Law to complement it? Or, if that is harsh, then maybe we just keep the Laws in our minds to guide us in our Christian walk? (onto Page 3.)
Teboho, what has been suggested to you concerning obedience to the Law is not entirely correct as far as the biblical meaning & application are concerned. Maybe it's only on a technical point but when it comes to such an important subject, we need to understand the Scriptures correctly so there is not only no confusion in our minds but also to others when they hear/read this message. So, in defence of the Word on this subject, I submit the following for your consideration & comparison to what you have heard elsewhere.
I doubt if anyone who truly believes in God, in His Son & the Word, could ever say that 'Christians are free to do whatever they like since we are not under the law': this is called antinomianism ("freed from moral law by virtue of the Grace given in & through Christ"). To say this, shows our gross misunderstanding of God's Laws, Whose "Laws are holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Rom 7:12).
So the questions that we need to ask & address: what are the Laws of God, to whom were they given & what was their purpose? We know that all the Laws given to Israel (as shown in Exodus & Leviticus mainly) were given to them & not to the Gentiles (these were not God's chosen people & not in God's (OT) view for blessing & eternal life). These Laws (the whole Law, including those pertaining to ceremony, festivals, daily life), including circumcision, these made Israel distinct from everyone else, as well as the Tabernacle with the Mercy Seat, where God met with His people. So, all the commandments given to Israel, not only identified them as God's Chosen, but also, through prophecy, pointed to a later, perfect fulfilment of them. Therefore, we understand that God's Son, Jesus Christ, was sent in complete fulfilment of those prophecies, whether in the Law ( Mt 5:17), Circumcision (not cut in the flesh but in the heart by Christ's sacrifice & worshipping God in the spirit, Phil 3:3-5; Col 2:11), (cont'd on Page 2.)
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
If you broke even one of the Ten Commandments, you were guilty of all.
Then Jesus gave us 2 new commandments; that if we live our lives by them, we won't need the Ten to teach us again.
It's a process of becoming free to love one another. A prophetic gifting doesn't give us permission to trample on others who have no clue. Love goes where law can't. Most unsaved people know they are sinners. The need to know about Grace; unmerited favor of God.
If you're grafted into God, you'll produce fruit of the new Life.
It's not a matter of the Old Testament no longer having relevance anymore. It does. There are many scriptures there, about Jesus before He was born as the Son of Man.
Also, scripture to us about conditions preceding the End of Days. There are plenty of those in both Testaments. Proverbs are excellent for anyone needing Wisdom; help in living alongside foolish unsaved people. Jesus never railed on people: His heart was Mercy and Righteousness. He wanted to come and set us free from the taskmaster of trying to obey the Torah. NOW Jesus is the only sacrifice that God accepts. He came to earth, fulfilled every jot and tittle of The Law; and sat down at the right Hand of God; the work complete.
He is now everyone's ADVOCATE (or attorney), when Satan comes Accusing us of gross or little sin, Before Almighty God!! Jesus consults in the Lambs Book of Life (names of the saved)....He says this one is MINE. God says: CASE DISMISSED!!! All of your days on earth are recorded in a Book; including your day of birth & death. The Book Of Remembrance: has all the things you have Spoken out loud about God and Jesus.
Tell someone about Jesus and what He's done for you. Even strangers.
Angels lean in to hear your praise.
Jesus already said what happens to people who are inactive, who do nothing, who blaspheme, who follow the world, who use grace as an excuse to sin as much as possible Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus says if you love him, then keep his commandments. John 14:15. If you don't keep them, you don't love him. If you don't love him and don't follow him, is it likely you'll be invited to spend eternity with him in heaven? Jesus warned his followers repeatedly through parables that most people will go to hell. It's interesting how some Christians are trying to claim sin is okay, that it doesn't matter and that it's wrong to say it's wrong. Satan is the great deceiver and even works within the community of believers to spread his lies. It's clear what Jesus already said, so I'm going to believe and follow him and his words, not the words of man.
James 2 and Romans 6 explain this.
Note that this is my belief through years of Bible study and prayer and you will have other Christians claim otherwise. I already know all their arguments and find them unbiblical. God bless...
Many thanks for the detailed explanation. Are you then able to provide me with a simple interpretation of Romans chapt 10 vs 4. I believe the view that the new testiment is replaced by the old testement is confused by the above. Hence require an interpretation of this.
God bless.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?