Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Thanks Robert for your lengthy, detailed response. I will come back to it, once I've given it the required consideration & allocating the time to do so. Appreciate your time in this.

God Bless. Check everything I said out. Check everything everyone says out. I've struggled with some fo those verses for a long time. it all makes sense now. Have a good one. Put a priority on winning souls. I think we are running out of time. I do believe there is a double-fulfillment with certain prophecies.

Robert, I spent some time this evening poring through your notes, even looking at other expositors' notes on this passage: chiefly Barnes' commentary. I can understand what you've said in light of the timeline given & its application to that period of Christ's coming, death & Titus' destruction of Jerusalem. It was very enlightening indeed as we are quite easily led to apply Dan 9:27 to the coming Anti-Christ given 2 Thes 2:4: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God". However, I can now see, with your help & instruction, that the actual setting of Daniel 9 is not of the future events (though, "even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (v 27b) can be seen to reference the Lord's Wrath yet to be revealed).

So, my thanks once again Robert for guiding me into the Light of this portion of Scripture.

Barnes is one of the really good commentaries too. I do believe there is one final antichrist. Full preterism rejects this idea but I see a double-fulfillment.

Some of the early church fathers did believe in some of the things we would call "the futurist view" today. For example, many believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. They didn't teach a pre-trib rapture though. And they definitely did not divide the church with unsaved Jews as most modern day pre-trib teachers do. In doing so, political zionism has flourished and many Christians in Palestine have been killed and maimed for life. According to Paul, once the New Covenant was confirmed ( Daniel 9:27) there is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK FOR WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST. To teach that some Jews would be saved by faith and WORKS during a period of time nullifies the finished work fo Christ on the cross and therefore is heresy. John Hagee is a big teacher on that and teaches DUAL Covenant Theology that teaches that. He threatened to sue Hank Hannegraff about 30 years ago for exposing his false teaching. A brother is not supposed to sue another brother so that didn't speak well of Hagee at all. He went way off the deep end and started to Judaize America after that.

Some pre-trib teachers try to site TWO of the many early church fathers saying they taught a pre-trib rapture in desperation to find someone pre-1830 but they horribly misquote what they really said and left out a portion of what they said; hopefully, not on purpose as that is very deceptive. Two guys that tried that over the last 5 years were Dr. Gene Kim and Dr. Ken Johnson. I fact-checked them to find out those two early church fathers were at best Mid-trib believers if you read the whole passage of their writings. Gene Kim tends to just parrot what he heard someone else teach without doing his homework. Ken Johnson I was concerned that he got it off. Maybe he never really looked it up either and was parroting one of his college teachers.

Thank you Robert, that was very helpful also. Re: the coming Anti-Christ. One could argue to the actual commencement of the Great Tribulation that is to come upon the whole world ( Mt 24). One thought is that it commences at the revelation of Anti-Christ (2 Thes 2:3 ff); another, that it's only after he begins his onslaught of terror upon those who refuse him & his Mark; and yet another, at the pouring out of God's Wrath upon the Earth ( Rev 6 ff). So, I suppose the inclination to one of these positions primarily determines where one stands in his belief to the timing of the Rapture of the Church. And then of course, the much debated matter whether the Church experiences any or all of the above, with all the Scriptures given to support those views, comes into play. Whichever understanding, the importance of our readiness & longing for His Return is paramount.

well said. What is your take on WHO will repopulate the earth for a literal millennial reign?

I ahve certain thoughts on the matter.

Those who take the mark of course are taken first in Matthew 24 (one is taken and one is left). Of course it was the wicked that were taken "as in the days of Noah".

We will get our glorified bodies before the millennium so it won't be us.

I know the modern Sanhedrin is pushing for worldwide Noahide Laws on ONLY Gentiles so if there is a mark of the beast connected to the Noahide Laws and that is where the New World Order is going, then they will be exempt. What is interesting is the Jewish Noahide laws call for beheading of idolators and their rabbis say Christians are the greatest idolators because we practice "partnering" where we make Jesus equal to the Father as we believe in the trinity.

Another possibility is those that haven't met the age of accountability.

Some think aborted babies will be sent back to earth to be tested. That sounds a little weird but someone has to repopulate the earth.

What is your take on this?

I lean heavily on the Noahide Laws as some Christians have already given themselves over to it, plus the huge growth of the Hebrew Roots Movement where some have even converted to Judaism now and left the Lord ( Hebrews 6). You also have the huge uprising of the Black Israelite cults like HOI, SICARII, GMS, ETC.

God is saving Muslims and masses of them would be saved if it wasn't for the fear of converting. I think many are missing it thinking the antichrist will be a Muslim. We shouldn't care what the Koran teaches. Scripture also calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt and it surely is today as it is the gay pride capital of the world now and the number one abortion country in the world "per capita".

So what do you think? I'm a partial-preterist/partial-futurist/premillennialist. These are my thougths.

Page 2.

Basically, I see Mt 24 account of the Last Days as being directed to Israel & not to the Church; I realize that I'm going 'against the current' on this one, but Jesus' hearers were His disciples, His community: the Jews, & His illustrations (e.g. the Fig tree), pertained to them. I don't see the Church here until the apostles refer to her & her position in those latter days. So in this discourse to His disciples, I see: vv 4-14 shows the time from His Ascension to the Gospel proclamation cut-off time. vv 15-20: Anti-Christ's emerging & his impact on Israel. vv 21-29: the Great Tribulation. vv 30-44: Christ's Second Coming. vv 45-51: Judgement against the unrighteous ones. Even though, the Church can learn much from this chapter, as to her preparedness & watchfulness, I still see this directed solely to Israel & the unbelieving world at large as the Church is not seen here, except for references to her ( Jn 10:16: "the other sheep").

PART 2:

Israel is the fig tree in many other verses but not this one. This is what got me really reading God's Word when I found out that 99% of people taught that that verse was speaking of Israel. I found other problems with these teacher's teachings on end times.

How about "The Time of Jacob's Trouble". It is only mentioned one time in all of scripture and it seems to be something that happened around 2,500 years ago and was already fulfilled. Many verses that have already been fulfilled are being used today as 'future' prophecies. I am open to some being a double fulfillment but I know a full preterist would say to me you can't justify it and they may be right trying to justify an already fulfilled prophecy and saying it has a future fulfillment too. The full futurist would say none of them have been fulfilled which is incorrect. I can go off into dispensationalism and all of that other stuff. You think if there were 7 to 17 dispensations as is taught in the modern pre-trib rapture movement, you think God would have had the word in the Bible at least 7 times but it is only in scripture 4 times and always speaks of the Old and New Covenant so it cannot be justified Biblically.

All very easily debunkable. Just have to get out the E-sword (free Bible software download) and do a word search, read each passage in its biblical and historical context and presto, you know what it is saying. If I can do it, anyone can. God is not a respector of persons if someone is really seeking truth and God's holiness.

I just hope some people will start just searching their hearts and asking God to show them if there is anything false in them. As soon as I hear someone say, "we need more than the word of God" I have to question what they are about to say and I think this may be why I originally wrote this article.

God Bless!

:?D

The Sacred Cowtipper (my nickname for newcomers)

Is Israel the "fig tree" in Matthew 24:32?

Not sure if you fell for this one, but I did for 30 years. The fig tree in Matthew 24:32 IS NOT Israel. How come so many teachers got that wrong? Is it that they don't know what a metaphor or parable is or were they so lazy as to not read the other two synoptic gospels were a tiny detail was given that totally debunks that? That is what I did for decades - GUILTY!

This is called a logical fallacy- what they taught CAN'T be true if it contradicts elsewhere. They will continue to teach that though although some no longer use that passage because guys like me showed them they can't and be honest.

Here it is: Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. Notice in verse 29, that it has that extra part to it -AND ALL THE TREES.

This is so easy to interpret. Jesus is merely saying when you see all of these 20 signs I am giving you here HAPPENING ALL AT THE SAME TIME, it is like a fig tree [which is common in that area] and ALL OF THE OTHER TREES getting their spring flowers, the flowers falling off and the leaves shooting forth. Jesus is saying THE END OF THE AGE and MY RETURN will be in that generation.

He was just making a comparison of natural things around that area. In other words,

20 SIGNS = END OF AGE AND MY RETURN. It is that simple. How they got this fig tree was Israel IN THIS PARTICULAR VERSE, I don't know. Maybe back to that laziness. I was too lazy to study it for myself and just bought it hook, line and sinker when I was taught it but many who didn't study it for themselves. I was brainwashed for 30 years to believe that because I didn't question the teaching.

Israel is the fig tree in many other verses but not this one. This is what...

Good morning Chris. How about we tackle one thing at a time as there are many things in Matthew 24 that I missed for decades that I started seeing differently. Why I call myself a dual fulfillment prophecy person. One of those is that one chapter has three different greek words for the word world and for good reason. I used to think it was always 'cosmos' because I was too lazy to look up every word. Anyhow, let's look at this one fallacy I ran into which was the first thing I noticed I was taught wrongly when I was pre-trib for 30+ years. Here it is.

Let's take the fig tree in Matthew 24:32. I wrote an article on it a few years back.

limited on space so I will send in two replies.

Page 1.

Robert, that's an interesting question: who will repopulate the Earth in the Millennium? You're correct that the "taking away" in verse 39 refers to the wicked of Noah's day, but can that phrase be used in the same way for vv 40, 41?

One could argue, that Noah too was "taken away" from the flood's destructive work on all living, in which case the farmers & mill grinders would experience the same prospect with the righteous one taken & the unrighteous one left. If this understanding is correct, then the unrighteous who are left are those who will continue into the Millennium. And those taken to be with Christ at His Coming are the elect (v 31) (Israel, not Elect because of salvation, but by God's choosing cf v 22) & they along with the raptured Saints (who come with Christ at His Second Coming) will reign with Him through the Millennium.

However, if your understanding is correct, that the unrighteous are the ones referred to in vv 40, 41 who are taken away, then there are the various possibilities, as you suggested, as to who will repopulate the Earth during the Millennium. I couldn't even begin to guess the answer to that one. (onto Page 2.)

Few think about that one. There has to be a reason for a premillennial view and a literal reign of Christ on earth. I hold to a premillennial reign of Christ. There are too many time-specific things to think it was meant to be symbolic and I surely don't see any children leading a lion around in our zoos, do you so full preterism has a problem with that.

There has to be those who are going to rule and reign with Christ on earth and Paul tells us that it will be the Christians who were faithful and living for the Lord and there has to be those whom they will rule and reign over. Without abortion , war, and murder going on for 1,000 years, we may see a population that reaches a trillion people. Plus all the women will be healthy with no miscarriages and probably having several babies each instead of one or two.

Robert, that was a lot of work you put in, so my thanks. But I'll keep my comments to the point.

Re: the Fig Tree. I agree with you that in these portions ( Mt 24 & Lk 21) the Fig tree is not Israel but used as part of Jesus' illustration to reveal the signs pointing to His second coming, though I don't see those devastations happening 'all at the same time'. If one had to consider the rate of time between the two, I would think that a fig tree in its season, would bud & fruit far quicker than the fulfilling of all those occurrences prior to His Coming. So I just accept it as an illustration rather than to apply a time rate to it. So "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees": I understand the "all the trees" as Jesus' emphasis as to the abundance of evidence that 'summer is nigh' = His Coming.

And of course "generation" ( Mt 24:34) can't apply to only those living at that time, but to the 'Jewish people' who experienced the start of their troubles from AD 70 (v 2) & onwards. His disciples must have thought at the time, that Emperor Titus' invasion was about to fulfil Jesus' discourse, but of course, it was only the start of their troubles, with much worse to come, climaxing in the future.

Re: those who are "taken away" ( Mt 24:39-41). If those who are 'taken away' are those who receive the beast's mark, then to where are they taken? Is it to their death, to some other location awaiting sentence or with mark removed, now comprising the 'nations' after the Tribulation? ( Rev 20:3,8; 21:24)? We understand that many will die during the Tribulation period & the Lord Himself will destroy the beast, the false prophet & the armies that come against Him ( Rev 19:19-21), but can we assume that all human life will perish at this time, or will there be some that remain to re-populate the Earth (& noted what you suggested in this regard)? So, I'm unsure whether I've adequately responded to your pages of comments, but wanted to condense it all to one page.

Re: those who are "taken away" ( Mt 24:39-41). If those who are 'taken away' are those who receive the beast's mark, then to where are they taken? Is it to their death, to some other location awaiting sentence or with mark removed, now comprising the 'nations' after the Tribulation? ( Rev 20:3,8; 21:24)? We understand that many will die during the Tribulation period & the Lord Himself will destroy the beast, the false prophet & the armies that come against Him ( Rev 19:19-21), but can we assume that all human life will perish at this time, or will there be some that remain to re-populate the Earth (& noted what you suggested in this regard)? So, I'm unsure whether I've adequately responded to your pages of comments, but wanted to condense it all to one page."

Me:

I believe Hades is still around. Abraham's bosom is gone as the dead in Christ rose with Jesus as the first fruits 2,000 years ago. Hades has to be in existence still. Check this verse out.

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell (Hades), and all the nations that forget God.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

No one is in the lake of fire yet. Although the false prophet and antichrist get to be thrown in 1,000 years before everyone else.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE (these two men were already in for 1,000 years), and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And of course "generation" ( Mt 24:34) can't apply to only those living at that time, but to the 'Jewish people' who experienced the start of their troubles from AD 70 (v 2) & onwards. His disciples must have thought at the time, that Emperor Titus' invasion was about to fulfil Jesus' discourse, but of course, it was only the start of their troubles, with much worse to come, climaxing in the future.

Me:

But you are forgetting that unsaved Jews do not read the New Testament. Very few even read the Old Testament and almost never without following the commentaries of the unsaved rabbis who didn't even know the 490 year timeline and rejected their own messiah. Matthew 24 was not going to do anyone who were not even going to read it any good. WHO was Jesus' answering? James, Peter, John and Andrew. Always take "How would have those the book was originally written to have taken or understood what was said". It was written to Christians, or I guess I should say those who were going to be born again within the next few months.

You: "But you are forgetting that unsaved Jews do not read the New Testament, etc. etc."

Me: I wasn't implying that the Jews or the disciples read the NT - of course it didn't exist. But by what the disciples heard from Jesus during His discourses, including whatever the general populace heard at various times, would have been recalled at the marching in of Titus & his armies. And all the subsequent events that Jesus spoke about would have hung over the disciples' heads as they waited for Jesus' Words to be fulfilled. And all the events that Jesus spoke about in Mt 24 applied to "that whole generation of Jews (all Jewry)" not just those living at that time, & of course, it was prophecy that had far reaching application to the rest of the world.

Then Mt 24:15: "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" arises. Is it referencing Dan 12:11 or Dan 9:27, or both? You mentioned that Dan 9:27 applied to Jesus Who "causes the sacrifices to cease, etc.", so the mention of the 'abomination of desolation' in Mt 24:15 becomes intriguing.

Those in Judea are to 'flee to the mountains, etc.' ( Mt 24:16-20): reference to the Jews. And after this, there will be Great Tribulation ( Mt 24:11). Of course, this Tribulation hasn't happened yet, unless the rest of us missed it altogether. So all these show me that Jesus was applying His prophecies specifically to Israel, with the broader implications to the rest of us.

I believe a double fulfillment of the time of jacob's trouble is coming but we are the ones already beginning to be persecuted. There are three things Biblically we are persecuted "because of".



1. For MY NAME'S SAKE. You have to be a follower of Jesus.

2. For godliness sake. The new US Embassy in Jerusalem just blessed the gay pride over there.

3. For my word's sake. They follow the modern Sanhedrin 70 just like they followed the oral law of the 70 elders instead of Moses most of the time throughout old testament history. Modern Judaism is Talmudic and kabbalah.

I don't see how a natural nation fits what Jesus said was true Biblical persecution nor does the modern state fit any of it. Most pre-trib teachers do what I call "Newspaper Eschatology" but when you do it and bring stuff like this up, they ignore you and act like what you are saying is not true. Chris, when you tell them there is more natural Jewish blood in Palestine than in Israel, they don't know what to say but two DNA tests done by two different Jewish DNA scientists have proven this over the last 20 years. They plan on doing a study in Iran. That is a whole other subject that isn't going to be talked about by Perry Stone, John Hagee and others who want to ignore the 16-legged, 5-eyed pink elephant in the room. If it doesn't fit their theology, they won't talk about it nor do they want their followers to learn about it. They purposely keep black Jews from Ethiopia and Etrithea from moving into Israel. I can go on and on. This stuff is written in their own newspapers like Hareetz, Jerusalem Post, etc. A good example of a famous pre-trib teacher that did this was Jack Van IMpe who I watched blindly for years. He always quoted what he wanted to quote out of those two newspapers but when I started seeing what else they said in their own newspapers I came to realize Van IMpe didn't want his audience to know the things he didn't want them to know because it would have created problems for his ministry.

Thanks for all that interesting, valuable information Robert. Most of us will never know these things until someone else who has researched into the state (condition) of present day Israel, informs us. Appreciate your time & knowledge on this.

you:

Then Mt 24:15: "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" arises. Is it referencing Dan 12:11 or Dan 9:27, or both? You mentioned that Dan 9:27 applied to Jesus Who "causes the sacrifices to cease, etc.", so the mention of the 'abomination of desolation' in Mt 24:15 becomes intriguing.

Me:

Yes, abominations is plural in Daniel 9:27, not singular. Can't use that one and stay intellectually honest. I don't have all the answers. I just try to never add or take away from the word of God. And there is that nasty "S" in the original manuscripts in Daniel 9:27.

What do you think of the eagle symbol the Roman Army had? Could that be the where you see the eagles gather? We take it as literal eagles. But Jesus is going to incinerate the earth which wold cleanse everything. Just a thought I just thought of so as Inigo Montoya in the Princess Bride movie once said to Vizzini, "I don't know your thinkum is what your thinkum is" or something like that. LOL.

YOU:

Those in Judea are to 'flee to the mountains, etc.' ( Mt 24:16-20): reference to the Jews. And after this, there will be Great Tribulation ( Mt 24:11). Of course, this Tribulation hasn't happened yet, unless the rest of us missed it altogether. So all these show me that Jesus was applying His prophecies specifically to Israel, with the broader implications to the rest of us."

Me: Fulfilled in 70 AD with signs as historically written of outside of the Bible. ALL the Christians in Jerusalem escaped when the Roman Army made its last push. 1.1 million unsaved Jews stayed in Jerusalem and were slaughtered, and 90,000 were sold into slavery, some mothers were eating their children to feed their other children. About 2 million were killed leading up to and including this final battle. So about 2/3rds of the Jewish population worldwide was wiped out. Many scholars believe this was the time of Jacob's trouble because percentage-wise way more Jews were killed than the Holocaust and in a much much worse way.

Good Morning Chris. WE finally got a much-needed all night shower up here in the north.

I was jsut saying that it would be a day late and a dollar short if the antichrist has already risen to power for an unsaved Jewish person to read what has already been mostly fulfilled in Matthew 24. Remember there are three different greek words in Matthew 24 for the word WORLD. The word oikenume means Roman Empire so the apostles did preach the gospel to the entire Roman Empire by 70 AD. That has been fulfilled. But like I said, I believe there is a double fulfillment with many things in this chapter that we in our time will experience, one of those being preaching the gospel to the whole world.

I have evangelized many of Jew, and they hate the New Testament. They call the Old Testament, the ONLY Testament. I hit them with "Then why does the Bible Numerics phenomenon underlie the entire text of the New Testament which proves God's authorship?" I don't get an answer. Try that some time when trying to reach them whether converted Khazar jews from southern russia from 800 AD that are the ones who mostly live in Israel today or the more natural Jews, most living in other countries. Pre-trib teachers don't like mentioning that one to their followers.

get back to you on the other thing you said.

You: "I believe there is a double fulfillment with many things in this chapter that we in our time will experience, one of those being preaching the gospel to the whole world."

This is probably where a lot of error & misunderstanding comes up: how to dissect correctly what has been fulfilled & what is yet to come. In our natural mind, we tend to read things as a developing story, & so what was prophesied to occur prior to & at the arrival/destruction by the Roman Army in AD70, then also speaks about a great tribulation, which no doubt meant great suffering to the Jews at that time (i.e. from Mt 24:20 to the change in v 21). And the thought of the great tribulation is continued from there to v31, which clearly hasn't happened in its fullest sense. So much speculation arises, different teaching, & sometimes a trail of confused believers as to what is actually going on here. I just have to accept that post Cross, there was & will always be much suffering from the hands of wicked men (spirit of anti-Christ), & we must simply believe that all the prophecies given must be fulfilled according to the declarations by God.

You: "I have evangelized many a Jew, and they hate the New Testament."

As I have done to a lesser extent than you, in ministry to Muslims in Pakistan, who likewise discount the whole Bible as 'filled with errors' in 'light of the revelation given by the Quran'. My approach has always been to begin on common ground (on which there is much) & even using the Quran to establish foundational truths, so that progress (= more light) can be made & seen. Of course, one's own knowledge has to be very good & the hearer must also be inclined to learn. Sadly, deficiency in both areas, prevents a meaningful discourse taking place.

ME ORIGINALLY: "I have evangelized many a Jew, and they hate the New Testament."

ME NOW: This is one of the reasons why I say the church will be here as the church has read this passage many times and it was relevant tot he first century church and it seems to be becoming relevant to the last generation whcih I believe we are.

YOU: As I have done to a lesser extent than you, in ministry to Muslims in Pakistan, who likewise discount the whole Bible as 'filled with errors' in 'light of the revelation given by the Quran'. My approach has always been to begin on common ground (on which there is much) & even using the Quran to establish foundational truths, so that progress (= more light) can be made & seen. Of course, one's own knowledge has to be very good & the hearer must also be inclined to learn. Sadly, deficiency in both areas, prevents a meaningful discourse taking place."

ME: Awesome! God is reaching a lot of muslims right now. I do talk to a few of them myself but I am sure not like you. We may not see the fruit of our efforts till we get to the otherside. So we keep on trucking for Jesus. You never know who you will reach. Do you ever listen to apologetics 17. He can be a let rough on Muslims be he is reaching them. David Woods is his name. I do the common ground thing with Muslims and go ahead with saying Isa adn then proving through Old Testament prophecies that Isa had to be the Messiah and had to die. David is rough, brash and tough but God is using it with him. I can't believe he hasn't been killed yet.

I found out last week that a lot of the mystical side of Judaism has taught that God has a son except they call him Metatron. Many fo the prophecies Jesus fulfilled they attribute to Metatron. I was blown away. It is the modern day judaism that has attacked this idea. The mystics at least got that right.

Hi Robert, good to catch up again. I fully realize that we all have many commitments so wasn't expecting any responses, though I had thought about you in the interim & trusted the Lord that you were well. So thanks for the added comments & no, I haven't heard of David Wood - will check him out.

I'm sure you too have many great stories to tell in your encounters with those of other faiths. And all these are not to bring us into the limelight, but all praise to the Lord Who superintends our ways.

I remember at one time in Karachi, Pakistan, my team were out on our daily book sales & tract distribution to Muslims. I wasn't having a good day, so thought to try for a sale at a bookshop. The owner was so interested in my literature, he bought my whole shoulder bag full of books & tracts! So, I went back to the team empty-handed & with praise for what the Lord had done. But, the Lord's Ways were beyond my limited sight at that time. On my way back from that sale, I turned around for some reason & noticed that that wasn't an ordinary bookshop, but was one attached to a Mosque & the central point for the sale of Islamic literature. Had I been aware of this fact, I would have quickly retreated, but the Lord had other plans for me & them. So, the Lord in His Providence had directed me to a Mosque to sell Christian books, they bought everything, they then sold those books unknowingly to other Muslims responding to the call for prayer (i.e. they helped in getting out the Word when I couldn't), & there may well be lost souls now finding the Saviour's Love. Jer 32:27: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" What an amazing God we serve, Who just needed a pair of hands & legs to get His Word out to those appointed to Life. And a little 'icing on the cake': I got out of there with my life & He also answered our prayers that morning as we had all but run out of cash to survive.

What the Lord can do with His trusting children!

I remember at one time in Karachi, Pakistan, my team were out on our daily book sales & tract distribution to Muslims. I wasn't having a good day, so thought to try for a sale at a bookshop. The owner was so interested in my literature, he bought my whole shoulder bag full of books & tracts! So, I went back to the team empty-handed & with praise for what the Lord had done. But, the Lord's Ways were beyond my limited sight at that time. On my way back from that sale, I turned around for some reason & noticed that that wasn't an ordinary bookshop, but was one attached to a Mosque & the central point for the sale of Islamic literature. Had I been aware of this fact, I would have quickly retreated, but the Lord had other plans for me & them. So, the Lord in His Providence had directed me to a Mosque to sell Christian books, they bought everything, they then sold those books unknowingly to other Muslims responding to the call for prayer (i.e. they helped in getting out the Word when I couldn't), & there may well be lost souls now finding the Saviour's Love. Jer 32:27: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" What an amazing God we serve, Who just needed a pair of hands & legs to get His Word out to those appointed to Life. And a little 'icing on the cake': I got out of there with my life & He also answered our prayers that morning as we had all but run out of cash to survive.

What the Lord can do with His trusting children!"

Awesome! Have you ever wrote this down in article form- like 2 to 5 pages long? I would love to send this out to my email-blast readers in Ohio and beyond. I try to encourage people to share their faith. Most are not risking their lives adn should be willing to share the gospel with those around them but 98% do not share their faith regularly.

I'm an old street preacher too. Lately I have noticed unique ways people distribute Chick Tracts and others:

Outside of a goodwill store I saw one on top of a trash can. Looked brand new. First I almost wept because someone threw away Gods Word. Got in my car and was praying out the pain; and I saw someone throw paper in the can and pick up the tract and take it with them.

I see tracts on the sidewalk (out of the foot traffic somewhat) and people pick them up!!

I've seen them on park or bus benches.

I know street ministry is still alive and well!

Almost everyone will read a Chick comic type booklet. They're inexpensive too.

I know they pray over them and ask God to lead people to them. He is the Lord of the Harvest! I hope more people will do this.

There's even space on it to write your Church's name and address on it.

Then be praying for your Pastor to hear from God every time he prays and gets his sermon ready for whatever day your Church chooses to assemble on.

Makes me think of John 3:8

The wind Blows where it listeth , and Thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

All of us older folks should bless the church teens with what they need to spread some love around the neighborhood; if the Church will allow it.

I go to a Nazarene church and the pastor wants to get me involved seeing my zeal and hands me a book called "Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith" by Rob Bell. When the book hit my hand, the Holy Spirit gave me a vision and a word of knowledge. Everything went totally black and the pastor disappeared for that tenth of a second and I saw the word DECEPTION in a 120-font in white and heard the Holy spirit say DECEPTION really loud in my spirit man. I didn't know who Rob Bells was at the time. I read the book adn debunked (Sacred Cowtippered) it. I was one fo the first to preach against the Emergent Church Movement on Youtube and many in the church attacked me. I have had way more persecution from the church than the world- 100 x more. If you have a good church, you are lucky. Most people don't hear the Holy Spirit. Sounds like you do. Nonetheless that pastor that pastored that church of 500 for about 25 years continued down the false road dragging his congregation with him. I hope I helped pull some people out of that mess. Pray for me if I should continue the home bible study or go out and try to find a decent (not perfect) church. The ones with good doctrine are pretty dead spiritually and deny the power fo the Holy Spirit. Those who dont' deny the Holy Spirit's move usually have a lot of bad doctrine. You may not know this but about 20 years ago 30% of pastors in America were addicted to porn and it is way worse now. I don't want them anointing me with oil and I can sure use prayer for healing.

Makes me think of John 3:8

The wind Blows where it listeth , and Thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

me: amen bro. I am sure glad ot meet brothers like you. It doesn't happen too often.

All of us older folks should bless the church teens with what they need to spread some love around the neighborhood; if the Church will allow it."

Me:be the example and hope othrs follow

There's even space on it to write your Church's name and address on it.

Then be praying for your Pastor to hear from God every time he prays and gets his sermon ready for whatever day your Church chooses to assemble on.

me: I couldn't handle a lot of false doctrine and/or compromise anymore. I quit going to church about 3 years ago and started a home bible study. This is where a lot of the church is going to have to go to as things get worse. The home churches in China is why the gospel spread so fast there. State churches there are for show and tell so Christianized nations will do business with China thinking there is no persecution anymore. 99.99% of all churches n America are state churches (501c3) putting themselves under Caesar as the head instead of Christ. We will continue to see them compromise more and more.

Also, I have been marginalized at every church I went to. I couldn't use my gifts at the SBC church because I didn't JOIN their hierarchy which is borderline communism now and was going that route for about 15 years. Now they are into social justice. I went to a Pentecostal church for a whole year, and was very friendly toward people every week and couldn't make one friend. Worship there wsa awesome; preaching was decent and doctrinally sound for the most part but it was a click. I wonder how many people left there feeling they were not a part of the assembly.

send new thread. I am having a hard time finding your comments at this point.

"I'm an old street preacher too. Lately I have noticed unique ways people distribute Chick Tracts and others:

me: i was saved by reading Chick tracts.

Outside of a goodwill store I saw one on top of a trash can. Looked brand new. First I almost wept because someone threw away Gods Word. Got in my car and was praying out the pain; and I saw someone throw paper in the can and pick up the tract and take it with them.

me. God gets it done. I put them everywhere. Satan can't throw all the seed away.

I see tracts on the sidewalk (out of the foot traffic somewhat) and people pick them up!!

I've seen them on park or bus benches.

I know street ministry is still alive and well!

me: yes, satan can't stop it. I need to get back to carrying the cross. that opens doors. my back hurts pretty bad though. I have an awesome plan that could get the gospel to 1,000's in literally one day.

Almost everyone will read a Chick comic type booklet. They're inexpensive too.

me: got about 8,000 on the shelf still. This was Your Life tract.

I know they pray over them and ask God to lead people to them. He is the Lord of the Harvest! I hope more people will do this.

me: most Christians will not which Spurgeon said you can't be saved if you don't care about the lost. They are afraid to lose friends to even talk to them about the gospel.

Robert, I think that this thread will be shut down shortly as it's getting too long - I will start a new one, using your name in the first line.

ok Chris. sounds good.

"Hi Robert, good to catch up again. I fully realize that we all have many commitments so wasn't expecting any responses, though I had thought about you in the interim & trusted the Lord that you were well. So thanks for the added comments & no, I haven't heard of David Wood - will check him out.

I could use prayer for stomach problems and back. Found out I was born with a mild form of spina bifida and now understand why I started dealing with back issues as early as my early-30's. I will be 53 soon. Prayers appreciated. I do believe God still heals. He did heal me of a problem in my early walk. David's ministry is called Acts17apologetics. he has almost 500,000 subscribers now. maybe you can team up with him on evangelism. He does debates also.

I'm sure you too have many great stories to tell in your encounters with those of other faiths. And all these are not to bring us into the limelight, but all praise to the Lord Who superintends our ways.

My best stories were in my youth. I hit the streets with gospel tracts when I was 16 with two other hippies at that time. People were so much more receptive back then. Hearts are getting hard with many. It's cool when the Holy Spirit shows up with a divine appointment or you get a word of knowledge. I've been doing most of my evangelism online for about 10 years now. Built a 12 x 6 cross in 2007 that we went around with. that was interesting. "Hey, Jesus didn't have a wheel." It opened up doors as people came to you. My zeal isn't where it was when I was younger in the Lord. I want thta back. I think about, "Why bother anymore? People don't care about the things of God or care to repent and come to Christ" and then I think what if Jesus had that attitude int he Garden of Gethsemane? I guess I and maybe you too don't always feel like sharing the gospel but we must press on even on the days we dont' feel like it. Pray for me for more zeal.

Hi Chris, I have been very busy. I guess the best thing to do is respond with each comment to get back to where we were.

"ME ORIGINALLY: "I believe there is a double fulfillment with many things in this chapter that we in our time will experience, one of those being preaching the gospel to the whole world."

YOU: This is probably where a lot of error & misunderstanding comes up: how to dissect correctly what has been fulfilled & what is yet to come. In our natural mind, we tend to read things as a developing story, & so what was prophesied to occur prior to & at the arrival/destruction by the Roman Army in AD70, then also speaks about a great tribulation, which no doubt meant great suffering to the Jews at that time (i.e. from Mt 24:20 to the change in v 21). And the thought of the great tribulation is continued from there to v31, which clearly hasn't happened in its fullest sense.

me NOW:

This is why I hold to a double fulfillment. I believe that Bible allows for that at times as God used shadows and types in the Old Test. of future things that would take place. Abraham giving of his first son; God giving of us Son for one example of hundreds.

YOU: So much speculation arises, different teaching, & sometimes a trail of confused believers as to what is actually going on here. I just have to accept that post Cross, there was & will always be much suffering from the hands of wicked men (spirit of anti-Christ), & we must simply believe that all the prophecies given must be fulfilled according to the declarations by God.

ME: Amen bro. Jesus promised us suffering, and persecution. Those of us living in 'better' countries have just been pretty much lucky up till about now. I have been persecuted in the USA to some small degree and falsely accused of something I didn't do. I got a little taste of it.

Re: the Fig Tree. I agree with you that in these portions ( Mt 24 & Lk 21) the Fig tree is not Israel but used as part of Jesus' illustration to reveal the signs pointing to His second coming, though I don't see those devastations happening 'all at the same time'. If one had to consider the rate of time between the two, I would think that a fig tree in its season, would bud & fruit far quicker than the fulfilling of all those occurrences prior to His Coming. So I just accept it as an illustration rather than to apply a time rate to it. So "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees": I understand the "all the trees" as Jesus' emphasis as to the abundance of evidence that 'summer is nigh' = His Coming.

Research what was going on then. Increase of earthquakes and all that were happening then too. What we would call the "birth pangs" or beginning of sorrows. This is why I take it as a double fulfillment prophecy.

But I also think that us Christians have been warning people like a pre-tribber would warn to get right so you can get out of here and not have to take the mark and the post-tribber would say you need to get right with God and begin getting oil in your lamp for the hard times coming.

So all these people being warned know not to take the mark of the beast so some will survive the time of tribulation without taking the mark. This could be another group. I'm just trying to figure out if there could be other possibilities. I can't prove it but I kind of take the one int he filed that is taken is the wicked person who took the mark adn the other one is either a jewish person that was exempt from taking the mark or someone who survived that didn't receive Jesus but also didn't take the mark.

Thoughts?

YOU: One could argue, that Noah too was "taken away" from the flood's destructive work on all living, in which case the farmers & mill grinders would experience the same prospect with the righteous one taken & the unrighteous one left. If this understanding is correct, then the unrighteous who are left are those who will continue into the Millennium. And those taken to be with Christ at His Coming are the elect (v 31) (Israel, not Elect because of salvation, but by God's choosing cf v 22) & they along with the raptured Saints (who come with Christ at His Second Coming) will reign with Him through the Millennium.

ME: The problem with that would be that anyone who takes the mark of the beast which might be tied into the noahide laws (not sure and time will tell), will not repopulate. They are damned for ever once they make that choice. Revelation tells us this 7 times. Those that are alive and remain UNTO the coming (parousia) of the Lord will be raptured (post-trib) and be glorified with a new body to reign with Christ on earth. So it can't be those two types of people.

Either some people are going to be exempt from having to take the mark and why I lean toward the noahide laws for the one reason I mentioned before that these are meant for gentiles only. Also, Leviticus says to not put any mark on one's body so in an attempt that a small portion of Jews go back under the law of Moses, this would be another reason. 3rd reason of course is the beheading clause in noahide laws' sublaws. This is why I am leaning that way and it makes sense as the government over there has put a huge illuminati pyramid with the eye of Horus on top of their supreme court building.

Robert, that's an interesting question: who will repopulate the Earth in the Millennium? You're correct that the "taking away" in verse 39 refers to the wicked of Noah's day, but can that phrase be used in the same way for vv 40, 41?

Three most important rules in Biblical interpretation are context, context, context. Verse 39 tells us WHO these next two verses are talking about. There is no reason to try to read in a pre-trib rapture when it already tells us who the who is.

PART 2:

c. All the things Jesus said in Matthew 20 thru 24 1/2 were fulfilled.

d. almost every single pre-1830 commentary I have read said this 'he' was Jesus or in John Gill's case, the Roman Army but Gill is off because they would have used the word 'they' (plural) instead of 'he' (singular) if it was more than one person. No references I could find up to date that teaches this 'he' is a future antichrist. It doesn't even make sense unless all grammar is thrown out. Check out what an antecedent is in grammar.

e. to turn abominationS (plural) in verse 27 into abomination (singular) is messing with God's Word. So what did the hierarchy of the religious leaders do after Jesus was crucified? they began animal sacrifice again thus mocking Jesus' death. This is the worst kind of abomination one can do, much worse than killing a pig on the altar as Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160 BC.

So in summary, there was only 3 1/2 years left after Jesus died in the 490 year timeline. Question is, was it fulfilled in

1. Stephens' death (there is no way to prove historically or Biblically that Stephen was killed an exact 3 1/2 years after Jesus. But I am open to this idea.

2. This is my take. The Great Revolt War that lasted 3 1/2 years from the fall of 66 AD to the spring of 70 AD; the Stay of Execution extra 40 years. 40 means trials and temptations in the Bible. even the demonic Jooish Talmud admits to the scarlet wool never turning white again from 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalam in Yoma 39b. This was a supernatural sign that God did after the Day of atonement. It never happened again after Jesus' death. This proves the abominationS in Daniel 9:27 has to be what the killing of animals again, not what ONE man way in the future was going to do. Even building a third temple is an abomination. See what God did to this attempt in 363 AD. I fear so many Christians are heading for major judgment for sending money to have this done.

3. see next post.

replying to your comment brother:

2. Re: Daniel 9:26,27. I think I'm reading correctly from your comment that it is Jesus that is seen in this passage. We see the Messiah cut off (v26) & then "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city". Are you seeing Jesus here as well? Then who are the "people of Jesus (the prince)" that shall come to destroy? You said that "this has nothing to do with a future anti-Christ". And if v27 refers to Jesus, doesn't this aspect of 'confirming the covenant' resemble anti-Christ's plan to go against Israel & introduce his own abominations to desecrate the Temple?

1. Daniel 9:26) the people of the prince to come = General Titus of the Roman army. Titus historically became a prince over night when his father Vespasian was called back to Rome by the Roman Senate to become the new king (Caesar) and he was left in charge of the 66 AD to 70 AD siege of Jerusalem. This prince was not Jesus. Why did Daniel interject this prince into the passage? If it had not, all the things Jesus said in Matthew chapters 20, 21, 22 and 23 would not make much sense. I call the time period between Jesus' crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem (40 years) and extended time of the 490 year timeline and call it a Stay of Execution where God was giving those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah another chance with a total of 530 years from the beginning of the timeline.

2. If you read verse 26's AFTER, you find that the 'he' in verse 27 is talking about the Prince with a capital P. and thta Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week.

a. the first 49 years (7 weeks) were already fulfilled and then the next 434 years (62 weeks) so we are already into the 70th week without Messiah being cut off yet. So this 'he' has to be the Messiah.

b. Jesus made an end of the animal sacrifices proving further he was the 'he'.

If you have a King James Version Bible WITH the center of the page reference columns; which reference to other Bible passages, BETWEEN Genesis verse 1 and 2,

You will begin to see a more complete explanation of Pre-Adam.

Satan was turned into a serpent.

The 1/3 of the created angels were thrown out of Heaven too. They had bodies at that time, which is how they "inter married" with the descendants of Adam (Not Seth).

All that happened after verse 1-2. It's a very intricate study. The column references in each location you go to, refer to others.

I'm going to flip on ahead and say after the flood, the evil angels died of drowning and lost their bodies. They now prowl the earth as demons; millions or billions, I don't know. They are called INHABITANTS in the scriptures.

I think Jesus is coming back real soon, so I don't think there's time to tear through Genesis many more times. I keep telling myself what does that have to do with being saved and born again? It's all in scripture.

Note: the earth is not thousands of years old; science has discovered differently. It's millions or even older.

Stay focused on New Jerusalem. That's our future. Signs of the Times, as Jesus said: Matthew 24.

I will say for the 32nd time, there are people in the prayer request room who need prayer. We don't get Crowns for weariness of much study.