Bible Discussion Thread

My comments are on verses 14-16 where the Lord Jesus Christ completely destroys the Old Testament, Christ is our peace who has made both Jew and Gentile one new man as a Christian, he alone has broken down the middle wall being the O/T which separates Jews and Gentiles. Having abolished, meaning to destroy in his flesh that O/T which kept the Jews and Gentiles at war, this is the law of Moses that had commandments contained in ordinances, in order to make in himself from two people a new man being a Christian, reconciling both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross having killed the Old Testament.

Hello, my opinion is that Jesus did not destroy the law, but fulfilled it, because Jesus literally said that in Matthew 5:17. I also believe the moral law still applies, such as do not kill. If we do, that's a sin. Jesus said go and sin no more. If sin didn't exist or was impossible for us to sin, then he wouldn't have kept warning and talking about the parables over and over to his followers (Christians). God bless.

Hello Adam, Jesus said that prior to his death and resurrection.. His death took away the sin of the world.. there are only 2 commandments, Love the Lord Thy God with all Thy Heart and all Thy mind and all Thy soul, and Love one another... On these 2 commandments rest ALL the Law and the Prophets...

If a person kills/murders another deliberately, that is a crime, not a sin... The crime committed is judged according to the Law of the land in which one lives... Lynn

All crimes are sin as the Bible determines. However, our governments don't like the word 'Sin' (it would be too religious & has an 'undesirable connotation') so we instead have the word 'crime'. So if someone commits murder, a righteous government would say: "a grievous sin has been committed before God & man" but you'll never hear that said.

Hello Chris, One must have a complete understanding of why ALL crimes are not sin... This is the reason Jesus could not be crucified according to the Covenant Law because he had done nothing worthy of sin so the Jews had him crucified under Roman Law, the law of the land. Paul was an expert in both Covenant Law and Roman Law, two completely different laws... Sin did not apply to Roman Law... Sin applies only to the Covenant Law that God gave to Moses to give to the Israelites... If one believes the Covenant Law that was given to the Israelites that defines sin, applies to them, that means that person has never believed in the finished work of the cross for their self...

In other words, this is the reason one must have a complete understanding of why their was a need for a Savior and why their Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ..

Everyone that has been freed for the Covenant Law, which is the Law of Sin and Death, has been freed via their belief that they were freed at the cross and that "sin" no longer applies to them...

However that does not mean that "crime" does not apply because one is subject to the law of the land in which they live and if they break the law of the land they become a criminal and should pay the penalty that is required by the law of their land for that crime... Lynn :)

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Therefore, I believe we can & do commit crimes against the laws of the Land & we have to pay for it, but I also am certain that believers, whose sins have been nailed to the Cross, are still well able to sin against God unable or not wishing to fully crucify the flesh, which Paul urged us to do. Isn't that why the apostle Paul himself was in spiritual & mental anguish when he exclaimed: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." And of course he said this as he talked about his sin nature (the flesh), that was ever existent that urged him to sin (all of Romans 7). We can never negate the presence of sin, of its appearance in our lives, & our need to confess them & turn from it. The Word is replete with Scriptures for us under the New Covenant to not let "sin have dominion over us".

Thanks so very much in Jesus name for the accuracy of your reply.

Thank you for your kind response, Gracelyn. However, my Page 3 which you've read, seems to have isolated itself from my other two pages, which are much lower in this thread. Don't know whether you managed to see those which tie up with my response. Sorry about the scattering of this comment to Lynn.

Hello Chris, Anyone that believes they can still sin after accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior has a skewed vision of that Jesus accomplished at the cross. He either completed the job his Father sent him to do or he didn't There is no sitting on the fence on this one. One either believes they are completely freed from sin or they don't.

I am one that does not put the cross of Jesus to shame by saying and or believing that it's still possible for me to sin. In other words, at one time, I was a sinner because that was what the religion I belonged to taught me to believe and I believed that religion was teaching me the truth.. When God taught me the real Truth of what Jesus did for me it was a whole new ballgame

Always keep in mind that Paul had been raised since his birth under the Covenant Law because he was an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin so it was far more difficult for Paul to see himself freed from the Covenant Law than it would be for someone that had never been raised under that Law.

Paul knew that Law he was living by since his conversion was the Law that was written in his heart and mind and he wished that for all his brethren, the Jews/Israelites, but he also knew they were not accepting Jesus Christ as their Messiah

When one comes to a complete understanding of exactly where Christ dwells and exactly where God dwells, they will absolutely know in their hearts and minds that sin has and never will have dominion over them

that was the Part 3... Yours In Christ, Lynn

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Lastly, I'm pained to take hold of how a believer, who can no longer commit sin, can justify his/her daily 'errors' before God. I'm not referring to the Laws of the Land or the Old Covenant Law - just focusing on our daily life. Can you in all honesty believe & claim that you cannot sin now because of the new life you have in Christ? Even if it may not be evident in your actions, does it ever give birth in the mind?

I know when I sin: I might harbour a momentary feeling of anger, pride or resentment, a misplaced word to someone, a desire to retaliate when falsely accused, & a host of other sins that prove not only its existence in my life but how carnal I am when measured up to the holiness of the Father & the Son. Why would Paul even suggest that we put on the whole armour of God ( Eph 6:11) if Satan could never touch us with sin (since we're sinless). The only sensible reason for Satan to attack us is if he can get victory over us - there's no point in causing us to trip up, if we're unable to.

I'll just leave all this with you as I fear that what you believe on this matter is actually what you have learned from some other source, since no natural reading of the Word can cause us to conclude that the sin nature in a true believer ceases to exist when both the Bible & our lives clearly show otherwise.

Your heart is right before the Lord. Let him decide this. May the Holy Spirit surround you with Comfort.

M.

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However, you may add that Jesus' Sacrifice also made the sinner spotless & unable to commit sin again. Again, to state that at the moment of repentance & receiving God's forgiveness based on Calvary, a believer receives God's Spirit to indwell him, to be God's guarantee & to give him a new life/a new nature. So every believer has to have the Holy Spirit in him, but does God then remove the old sinful nature, which is the very reason for committing sin? I do not see that the goal of the Cross was to ever remove that old nature - it was only for the basis of God's pardon, man's spiritual renewal, & power to live a consecrated life in Christ. ( Gal 5:16,17 speaks of the ongoing war between the flesh (our old nature) & the Spirit (our new nature)).

I believe that the New Nature by God's Spirit can never sin ( 1 Jn 3:9) - maybe you are focusing on this aspect - as it's impossible for God to do or provoke us to evil. But please bear in mind that the incoming of His Nature in us does not annihilate or dispose of the Old nature. For that reason, in every letter of the apostles, the message to believers was to crucify the flesh ( Rom 8:13: "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live", is but one example). Paul is not speaking to the unsaved - he's speaking to believers in Christ but some are entertaining sin - yes, SIN, & need teaching & encouragement to turn away from sin & live (be led) by the Spirit of God (v14).

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Hi Lynn, your persistence in keeping up with both Adam's & my comments is commendable & I can see your sincere belief in what you state as the reason for Jesus' coming & crucifixion. Rather than rehashing everything you've written & also noting your other comments to Adam, I hope to take it from there. As well, I don't follow any particular Church teaching or custom; I took some time away from work (soon after I was saved) to just spend it with the Lord & His Word & to develop a deeper understanding on what was written. For that reason, I will never 'fit' into any Church, but then who does, but I value what is taught so that it may be further contemplated & of course the fellowship with other believers is necessary. So the basis of my comments are solely on the Word according to the Light given.

You've stated that the salvation that Jesus has offered has meant that you have not only been cleansed from past sins but that His Life in you now keeps you spotless & indeed unable to sin. I hope I've understood you correctly. I have heard of such a position: it's called a 'sinless perfection' & is based on the understanding of Scriptures as you have given. Of course you know that I will disagree with such a position as that is simply untenable from the correct reading of Scripture & evidence from real life that supports it.

Why did Jesus come to die for sinners? His Coming, in fulfilment of the prophecies that spoke of Him, was simply, in a nutshell, to make payment for sin. It was both a redemptive & a substitutionary Work of Love by the Father through His Son. Nothing more. The Cross provided the means, the only means, by which a sinner could ever hope to receive forgiveness & connecting back to his Creator. What a sinner could never do, Jesus fully accomplished at Calvary: and not by the keeping of a new Law, but only by Faith could the guilty come & receive pardon. I'm sure you know all that, but stated here, to lay the foundation.

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your interest in the comments you are hearing. I was very happy to hear that you have "come out from among them", the religious ones that keep the vast majority of folks stifled and in darkness.

I went thru nearly every denomination known to mankind prior to finally ending all religion from this life relying upon God to teach me either by Himself within or using other members of the Body of the Christ to edify when times seemed rough.

You are exactly right regarding what you are calling "sinless perfection".. That simply means one is now "righteous" in the eyes of God, in other words, sinfree.

That does not mean that I will always be doing things other people like because the mast majority of folks that do not have this understanding will never like me no matter what I say or do. Trump is a good example of that.. No matter how much good he does, those that hate him will never ever give him one ounce of credit for anything good that he does.

It is fine with me when you disagree with some of the words I say that you hear. I was the same way with others for a number of years. The important thing is, God is faithful to those that He knows have completely turned their lives over to Him

The cross was far more than a payment for sins, as you are saying, in a nutshell.

His resurrection made it possible for us to be resurrected from that old life while we are alive in the here and now in order to be servants of God and Jesus Christ.

The vast majority of religious folks believe and are waiting for a future event to happen never understanding that future event is waiting for them at the cross..

Have a great day Yours In Christ, Lynn

Just two comments Lynn. You state: "(sinless Perfection) simply means one is now "righteous" in the eyes of God, in other words, sin free." You equate 'righteousness' with 'being without sin'. I see 'righteousness' as being in 'right standing before God' & not freedom from the sin nature. And this standing is based on what Christ has accomplished at the Cross & our response to Him and not based on our own righteousness. The Cross can only be the means by which God could forgive man his sins, give him a 'new heart & new Spirit', and thus declare man not guilty in his standing before Him. Therefore the saying, "we are sinners saved by grace" appears most apt as it declares that the sin nature remains in us (of course proof given in our ability to still sin), yet it was God's Grace that came to our rescue to provide the basis for our forgiveness, which we were unable to provide. His Grace poured out does not make us 'sinless' but that we ARE STILL sinners yet accepted by Him in spite of being so, having been renewed & our affections no longer set on earthly things.

Secondly, you wrote: "The cross was far more than a payment for sins", but you spoke of Jesus' resurrection making "it possible for us to be resurrected from that old life". I see what you're getting at, but Jesus' resurrection from the dead, in theological terms, was specifically to show God's full acceptance of the Sacrifice ( Rom 1:4: "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead). And also by the full justification of the sinner: ( Rom 4:24, 25: "(righteousness) will be imputed if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.")

Christ's crucifixion was purely a Redemptive, Substitutionary work on our behalf just as God's justification of us & acceptance of Jesus' Sacrifice were the result of Jesus' Resurrection.

Part 2.. Hello Chris,

You are right in showing that Jesus's resurrection from the dead was to show God's FULL acceptance of the sacrifice He sent His Son to perform.

FULL sacrifice means we were/are FULLY freed from sin and God's new plan for mankind begins.

The focus must be taken off the old life and put on the new life In Christ.

Think of it as a computer that becomes filled with data that we no longer have a need for. Think of wiping that computer clean and refilling it with all new data.

Out with the old, In with the new.

Jesus spoke a parable about New Wine saying New Wine must be put in new bottles. This is what happens with us, new wine is put into new bottles.

You are correct in saying this is FULL Justification from sin IF we believe on Him that raised up our Lord from the dead. It must be understood that God sees all those that believe they and others, since the cross as sinners, are dead IN sin.

One is either dead IN sin or alive In Christ. No sitting on the fence here.

I see all those that are still dead IN sin as walking zombies not really knowing their left hand from the right.

I could give you a ton of bible verses but the good thing about having the New Covenant written in the heart and mind is, God just has us speak the words He wants us to speak and lets the chips fall where they may

Have a great day. Lynn

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Our sin nature will be with us till death just as a new baby from birth has the sin nature even though no sin has been committed. The baby's first & succeeding sins prove the existence of that nature, for without it, it cannot sin. When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, it was Satan's attempt to give Jesus a sin nature & that could have happened if Jesus even slightly stumbled by wanting to satisfy his appetite after that long Fast. Yet, He retorted immediately to Satan not even considering His hunger thereby proving in sinlessness & Sonship & being the fully acceptable Sacrifice for each one of us.

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Hi Lynn. Thanks for your two pages & I'll deal with three points:

a. "No Covenant Law, No sin." What happens to Gentiles who have neither received nor are under Covenant Law, as the Law was given to Israel only - & this was one of the markers that made them God's people?

b. "Sin is defined by the Old Covenant Law." Sin might have been defined by the Old Covenant Law, but at the advent of Christ & in His Ministry, He redefined it giving its full God-intended meaning & force. So, what is Sin? Maybe a simplistic question, but there's a possibility that we don't understand what sin entails. Is sin then only a breaking of the Law as given to Israel or is there more to it?

c. "Our old man, old nature, is nailed to the cross with Jesus". Herein is our problem: you say that our old nature was nailed to the Cross. I believe it was our sin that Christ bore on Himself, thereby permitting God to forgive us, cleanse us & make us acceptable to Him.

1 Peter 2:24: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." I think you're seeing our sinful nature & our sins as interchangeable words, however, I don't see that our sinful nature is ever removed, only our sins forgiven & we're justified ('just if I'd' never sinned). If our sin nature is removed, as you believe, then there will be no evidence of sin ever occurring in our new life (which you also believe). Yet, not a day can go by without sin raising its ugly head in every believer thereby proving that we are still sinners.

Hello Chris,

It took awhile for me to understand freedom from sin, so I understand why you see sin the way you do. Let me try and simplify this.

Sin is defined by the Old Covenant Law. When we believed we were sinners, it meant we believed that either the whole Old Covenant Law or parts of that Law applied to us. There is absolutely no way anyone is able to keep that Law without breaking it. That is the way God designed it, in order to fulfill His future plan of creating what Paul calls "new creatures In Christ".

Now, if one believes any part of that Law applies to them, it means they are "dead IN sin" and need to be freed from that Law. The cross frees us from that Law. Once freed that means we are "dead TO sin". In other words, No Covenant Law, No sin.

Our old man, old nature, is nailed to the cross with Jesus because he died in "our" place so we must see our old selves dying on that cross with Jesus. Once we understand the old self/old nature dying and see the new man/new creature In Christ being raised from the dead is when we see "sinless perfection" via Christ now dwelling in us. When we have arrived at the point of understanding our dying and resurrection from sin, via the cross, God then writes His New Covenant in our hearts and minds.

This means the Old Covenant that caused us to be sinners has been taken away and the New Covenant that has us sinfree has begun It's work in our new lives In Christ.

No Old Covenant, No sin New Covenant, Sinfree.

This was longer had to cut it short to fit in. will send a second post soon. Lynn

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Hello Lionjudah,

Nice job.. Well done! Lynn

That's exciting news, so now everyone tonight can commit adultery, fornication, lies, deceit, and all kinds of other legal sins, because someone said it's not actually 'sin'. How exciting this must be that you can get away with all this, and not's not 'evil' either, because it's not illegal. Satan could not be more proud of your interpretation.

This is a joke. Jesus clearly said to not sin. If sin didn't exist then he would not have talked about it so much. And for those who claim 'well, that was before he died'. No, Jesus appeared and spoke to people after too. It's no surprise that satan is going around deceiving Christians into believing sin doesn't even exist. That has satan written all over it. Hell is real and I don't want to go there, but if someone does then yes, keep justifying evil. The Bible throughout says the opposite of this heresy.

Hello John,

Now, this is what I see as a walking zombie

I have already explained that anyone that does these types of actions will be considered a criminal according to the law of the land in which they live and they will be tried by the court and pay the penalty and that could result as life in prison or the electric chair.

I would suggest that you spend some time discussing the way you interpret the bible with God and IF you're lucky He might teach you a thing or two, because it's responses like you just made that show perfectly that you have no understanding of the finished work of the cross Lynn

me: commit adultery, fornication, lies, deceit, and all kinds of other legal sins,

you: I have already explained that anyone that does these types of actions will be considered a criminal according to the law of the land in which they live and they will be tried by the court and pay the penalty and that could result as life in prison or the electric chair.

I gave specific examples of sin that are not illegal, but you then falsely claimed that they are illegal. Do you understand the difference between a crime and a sin?

you: you have no understanding of the finished work of the cross Lynn

Insults aren't what I would expect to hear from a Christian. Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so who is your pastor or the source of your assumption that sin doesn't exist and how do you reconcile with so many other parts of the Bible saying it does exist, including after Jesus died on the cross?

So, do you recommend Christians to commit affairs and sexual sin since that isn't a crime and since 'sin doesn't exist'? If your partner cheated on you would you be fine with it? It wouldn't hurt you, since it's not a crime and 'not a sin' according to you, right?

Hello John, I see now what you are saying. I suppose if one is in court and lies under oath they could land in jail

However, when it comes to the Old Covenant Law IF one eats pig it's a sin. And we know that outside that Law, we can eat all the bbq ribs we want and it's not a crime. This is why I say one must have a clear understanding of how the Old Covenant Law defines sin and what the difference is between that Law and the law of the land.

And yes, I do understand completely the difference between crime and sin. I know that IF I were to break the law of the land it would be a crime and IF I were to break God's Law it would be a sin. However, the cross frees us from God's Old Covenant Law meaning that frees us from what Paul calls the law of sin and death.

Once freed from the Old Covenant Law, the law of sin and death, God then writes His New Covenant Law in the heart and mind, which is the law of faith In Christ Jesus The New Covenant Law has nothing whatsoever to do with sin.

If you believe you were insulted by any of the words you heard me say, that simply says to me that God's Word hit a sore spot, and I call that a good thing because it will be a learning experience, if not today, sometime in the future, because I believe His Word never returns void

The words you hear from me come from a member of the Body of Christ. When I was trapped in religion I used to call myself a Christian The new me has been delivered from religion.

As time goes on, hopefully you will discover that the religious world is trapped in the belief that they and all others are sinners. This belief is a mockery to what Jesus performed at the cross. Sad to say!

I personally see the vast majority of Christians as dead IN sin instead of dead TO sin.

I really do not care what they do in life as long as they do not try to convince me that they are someone more special to God than others are. Whatever they do is between them and their god. Lynn

pray for understanding bro u only sin against the most high. spirit and truth?? those the have an ear let him hear?

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So the above clearly shows that it wasn't crimes against Roman law that saw Jesus in front of Herod & Pilate, but from false accusations from the Sanhedrin. Of course, Pilate was culpable also by giving in to their demands & believing that he could absolve himself from this evil act (v24). On the other hand, should Jesus have conspired against Rome by inciting its citizens against their govt., then of course, Rome had every right to accuse Jesus of a crime & to face its consequences. And that 'crime' would have broken Covenant Law as well (probably the 6th Commandment) as the agitated & frenzied citizens would have reason to slaughter their Roman leaders.

And one more thing, if I may: "Everyone that has been freed (from) the Covenant Law, which is the Law of Sin and Death, has been freed via their belief that they were freed at the cross and that "sin" no longer applies to them...". I heartily agree with your statement that believers are no longer bound to the Covenant Law which only revealed sin & brought resulting death (as I've shared elsewhere on this Site & received strong rebuttals), but has this freedom, through the Cross, meant that "sin no applies to them"? Again, as much as I appreciate a good presentation, I beg to differ. I realize that your statement hinges on Covenant Law being inferior to the Law of the Spirit of Life. And so it is, for that was God's Intention. However, as much as the Cross of Christ has now "made us free from the Law of Sin & Death" ( Rom 8:2), it is freedom from the hopelessness of forgiveness, of any restitution or recovery from that Old Law, that Christ's Sacrifice fully accomplished at the Cross. The Old Law was perfect in every way, as given by the LORD, but in finding full, eternal redemption it could never do, thus the need of a better sacrifice ( Heb 9:23; 7:19,22; 8:6).

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Hi Lynn, I've been following your various comments & they have been very interesting, yet different - and the one you've shared here is no exception.

You said, "Jesus could not be crucified according to the Covenant Law because he had done nothing worthy of sin so the Jews had him crucified under Roman Law". I agree that Covenant Law was kept perfectly by Jesus proving His sinlessness, but wasn't the Sanhedrin's accusations against Jesus based on that Covenant Law, even though they themselves were misguided by not looking 'deeply' into & understanding God's Holy Requirements? All they saw in Jesus & His ministry was a 'breaking' or departure from God's Law so that they could justify their accusations against Him & keep their own positions & power over the people secure.

They accused Him of violating the Sabbath Law (by healing on the Sabbath), threatening to destroy the Jewish Temple, of sorcery, exorcising people by the power of demons, & claiming to be both the Messiah and the Son of God, etc. The Roman govt. thought these charges against Him were of little consequence to them & just violations of Jewish customs: "And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him: No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him." Lk 23:13-15.

Hello Chris, I agree Jesus was crucified because of false accusations because the Jews flat out wanted him dead. Pilate was put between a rock and a hard place with Jesus being brought before him so he gave the people to choice of what was to be done and it was the people that cried out crucify him

I completely understand what you are saying with the receiving of strong rebuttals IF one does not share the same belief that God has taught you. It is always my belief that IF someone cannot say, Oh, I never heard it that way before, that means to me, they are already set in their minds what they believe so best to avoid them We know we spoke the Word that God gave Us to speak and that is all that counts. The Word of God never comes back void so one day that Word will sink in

I agree the Covenant Law was and still is perfect in every way the difference is knowing whether just one jot or tittle of the Covenant Law applies to me/you or not, and the answer to that since Jesus's death on the cross is NO Not one jot or tittle of it applies to me/you or anyone else, UNLESS they have been taught to believe it does and they believe it IF they do believe it, it means they DO NOT believe in the cross as a finished workThere is a huge difference in the New Covenant Law that God writes in the hearts and minds of those that believe in the finished work versus those that believe the Old Covenant Law applies to them

This was in response to Part 2 of your post Lynn

Hello Chris, I have no idea if you live in America or somewhere else, however, as an American citizen I know the Constitution is set up to separate religious law from gov't law. We have the right to worship under any religion we so choose or not choose when it comes to worshiping God.

Since my complete understanding of the cross and what it did and has done for me, I no longer belong to any religion because I worship God in Spirit and in Truth. That means I know that God dwells within ALL His creation and that Christ dwells in me and me in Christ. Christ is sinless therefore IF I were to believe I could still sin, it would be putting the cross of Jesus to shame..

It appears to me that your religion has taught you to believe that you are still a sinner no matter what Jesus did for you at the cross. Is that correct? If so you would have to have an understanding of that religious doctrine in order to see if it agrees with the doctrine of Christ.

Long story short on Jesus being led up to be crucified. Jesus had never done anything worthy of death under the Jews Covenant Law and neither was he worthy of death under Roman Law He was put to death because they traded him for a murderer and the murderer was set free in his place

This was in answer to your Part 1 Lynn

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your responding... I have a lot of things to do today so will have to get back with you later but I will respond to what you have said when I get a chance... Lynn :)

Hi Lynn, I've never heard anyone say it's ok to kill people, especially from a Bible-reader, that its not immoral and not a sin, so this is a first. So, if this were true that civil law is the only thing making killing wrong then it would be totally fine to kill outside of a country's borders and laws? So its 100% fine for a Christian to harm others as long as there's no civil law where you are, such as in open waters, or on a remote island, or in space? Even most atheists and satan worshippers believe killing is immoral. The Bible does not support this idea and one would have to ignore a mountain of scripture to cherry pick something and massively distort it to even come remotely close to justifying this, however, I'm open to seeing your supporting scripture for this idea, because Jesus directly said he didn't destroy the law in Matthew 5:17. Paul still wrestled with sin and tried very hard to avoid it and this was after Jesus's resurrection, if there was no such thing as sin then Paul wouldn't have said all that in Romans 7. God bless.

isreal were orded to wipe out the nations around them? why? those that have an ear let them have an ear?

Because those nations was trying to destory them. Best defence is agood offence.

Hello Lionjudah, Exactly! God said kill them all. Lynn :)

Hello Adam, Clearly you misinterpreted what I said.. :) I said, there is a difference between Sin and Crime... The only way one can become a sinner is to be party with God to the Covenant Law that God gave to Moses to give to the Israelites. If one believes that Covenant Law applies to them in any way it means they still need a Savior to be freed from that Covenant Law which is also called the Law of Sin and Death....

Crime has to do with the law of the land in which one lives... If one breaks the law of the land, they become a criminal not a sinner because they would be party to the gov't of that land in which they live.

And no this in no way whatsoever means one can deliberately kill anyone and get away with it... No one will get away with deliberate murder whether they are party with God to the Covenant Law or whether they are party to the gov't's law of the land...

For ex: I was freed from the Covenant Law that I believed applied to me that continually had me believing I was a sinner and that I always must be doing something to please God for everything I thought I had done wrong.

Once freed from the Covenant Law I am still subject to the law of the land in which I live... However, I have no desire whatsoever to break the laws of the land so not worried about becoming a criminal, but IF I ever should break the law of the land I will pay the penalty for whatever I do wrong in the eyes of the law of the land... That still does not make me a sinner because I was freed from being a sinner at the cross... I would simply be a criminal...

When Paul said sin dwelled in him. or something to effect, what Paul was meaning was the "knowledge of sin" dwells within him... It was far more difficult for Paul being as he was an Israelite and had lived under Covenant Law all his life... Lynn :)

Hello Adam,

I did give scripture references in a separate message but for some reason it was not posting on the site.. It had said, Thank you for the comment, but never evidently never showed up. Here again is what I had sent..

This is a copy of the Covenant Law that defines sin according to God's Covenant Law that He gave to Moses to give to the Israelites. Under this Covenant Law, yes, all the things you mention would be sin if this Law was transgressed by the person that believes this Covenant Law applies to them.

I had to delete the copy of the entire Covenant Law because the discussion site said external links were not allowed.. I was hoping that would be the quickest and easiest way to explain the Covenant Law versus the Law of the land in which one lives



Here one small section of Romans where Paul preached freedom from this Covenant Law for all those that believe it applies to them.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It appears to me that you have not believed with all your heart, mind, and soul that Jesus died for the sin of mankind on the cross. In other words according to what you have written, you believe you

Hi Lynn,

I noticed you didn't cite any Bible verses to back up your belief, so where does this belief come from? Did a church pastor tell you this or how did you come to such a conclusion that "If a person kills/murders another deliberately, that is a crime, not a sin... "

Is God ok with ALL sin then? Fornication or adultery is not illegal, so if someone wants to commit that tonight, are you saying that God is ok with that and it isn't a sin? If so, where in the Bible does it support this idea?

As you may know, Satan is the father of lies. He deceives people, including Christians to get people to justify sin and turn from Jesus. So, one of us is incorrect, because truth is not relative. There's only 1 truth. So, if Satan deceived one of us, which is more likely, that satan would deceive a Christian into being more obedient to God than he needs to (how awful), or that satan deceives a Christian into believing that sin is ok, and good, and there's nothing wrong with following the world and committing evil, because it's already forgiven. Which of those 2 things is most likely satan's choice to deceive a Christian?

I have prayed about this and 100% disagree with what you said, have a mountain of scripture to back it up, and have prayed and asked God to know the truth and I believe with all my heart that murder is a sin, fornication is sin, adultery is a sin, cursing is sin. The 2 greatest commandments from Jesus you claimed that 'replaced' the moral law did replace it, but added to it and made it even MORE restrictive and HARDER to follow. Example Matthew 5:28.Let me ask this- are you 100% following Jesus's 2 commands? How do you know if you're truly loving God with all your heart, soul and mind? Wouldn't obeying God's law and avoiding sin be a part of loving Him? 1 John 1:8, John 8:34. How about loving your neighbor as yourself. Have you done this 100% perfectly all your life? If you are without sin then are you better than Jesus? 1 John 4:20, Romans 3:23.

Hello Adam, I did send a link explaining the entirety of Covenant Law but later discovered this site does accept links from other sites so it was never posted.

I also sent bible scripture in same response from the Romans using the KJV on my site but evidently that is not acceptable either. I am new to this site so still learning how to use it. It appears as if when I want to get a bible verse I need to do it directly from this site.

I agree that all the things you see as evil are sin according to the Old Testament Covenant Law. I'm saying I used to believe that Covenant Law applied to me prior to my understanding of Jesus freeing me from that Covenant Law via his death and resurrection at the cross...

So none of that Covenant Law applies to me any longer or anyone else UNLESS they believe it applies to them via false teaching that caused them to believe it does...

I'm saying I love my life now free from sin, according to the New Covenant Law that God writes in the hearts and minds of those that believe in the cross as a finished work... In other works living life alive in Christ.

This does not mean that I am not subject to the laws of the land in which I live, because I am.. If I were to break the law of the land it simply means I would be a criminal, not a sinner...

If you are choosing to still believe you and all others are sinners, that simply says you are not believing in the cross as a finished work... In other words, up until this point, the cross has been of no benefit to you.. Lynn

I even feel guilty when I'm in a gathering and people are swearing with zeal. I make up an excuse and leave. Sigh....