Adam was first flesh man in this earth age but we lived here before. There was a great flood of Jeremiah 4 and if you read that chapter you see we were all stupid and also no Noah, no bird and no boat in that flood in fact God said He submerged the earth in water if you make a deeper study and so then every city was wiped out and earth was cleaned except what God wanted left. Then God said to us let us create man in our image so we look the same in both places and eternally unless your not there anyway Eve had flaternal twins from 2 different dad's one being Adam and the other lucifer and Cain was a murderer and killed Adams son. Anyway we have lived on earth millions of years but flesh a short while. One thing to say when the first messiah comes with supernatural powers and the world chases after him don't it's a deception it's instead of Christ and its 2 and a half months so store food when he stands up in Jerusalem claiming he is God and brings lightning down from the sky. You'll see antichrist the preacher who has been doing a lot of work behind the pulpits and he will be right here on earth kicked here. ( Rev 12) The world has it wrong telling stories of destruction and its fake sweet peace of poison that kills souls so be prepared and don't get caught up in the deception.
God's word reveals to us that the earth was "without form, and void." That is found in Jeremiah 4:23. Many people that worship God and Jesus understand this to have happened in the first earth age.
We know the phrase "without form, and void," from Genesis 1:2, and it means 'completely covered with water,' which is what the earth was before the 6 days of re-creation by God.
The 'Scriptural proof' you are requesting from Word 76 concerning people on earth a long time age can be found in Jeremiah 4:25, as God states that there was "no man." This is not reference to the flood of Noah's day, as Noah, his family, and animals, survived the flood. Neither was the heaven black or light taken from the earth at the flood of Noah's time. Neither were all the birds gone.
God declares to His children that they are "sottish," meaning foolish, because they do not care for or desire "understanding" of His word. God then reminds them, and reveals to us, how the earth came to be "without form, and void" and the heavens gave "no light."
We are also told that God did not make a "full end" of that destruction, i.e. the 6 days of re-creation in Genesis 1.
Given in ( Jeremiah 4:22 - 29) is information as to HOW God destroyed and made "desolate" the earth, and that He withdrew His light from the heavens. WHY His "fierce anger" was kindled can be found in chapter 14 of Isaiah ( Isaiah 14:1 - 32). Prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel is given. Within this prophecy, Satan is addressed symbolically as "Lucifer" (look at Isaiah 14:12 - 20)
The word of God does not declare that Eve had 'fraternal twins,' the point being made is that it is possible. Science states that it is possible to have twins with different fathers. I believe this could be a possibility.
We learn and teach with love! Nobody knows everything about Scripture, and we try to understand other peoples points of view with compassion and guidance.
Thank you for your comments, EJL. I'm sorry that I have to disagree with your understanding of Jeremiah chapter 4. None of those references you gave refer to the days of the Earth's first state, or of man, or possibility of Eve's other conception.
In the natural reading of that passage, Jeremiah is talking about Israel's spiritual condition, that they "circumcise their heart" rather than be the recipients of God's Wrath. Jeremiah goes on to describe that coming desolation from God (vv 11-20). Then Jeremiah saw the outcome of that desolation: vv 23-31, which included, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." This isn't a reference to creation (though with clear similarities) but to the destruction that would come if Israel continued in the way they were going.
And my (curt) response to Word 76, was to ask that if a claim is to be made or teaching from the Word to be given, then Scriptural support needs to be given (as you have done here to prove your understanding). Without support, then this being a public accessed Site will become a breeding ground for false teaching & I believe that has to be refuted. If for nothing else, so that those enquiring may also get 'the other side' of the biblical meaning. I fully agree, we can't know everything & we're still learning, but since our text book is God's Word, we should make appropriate reference from it & not from our musings.
Please don't feel that you have to apologize for your disagreement with how I see these verses, as respectful discourse brings forth better understanding.
I agree that the context must be examined and the interpretation of Scripture must be attained before any application to other Scripture is introduced and personal opinions are then formed.
You are correct that Jeremiah 4 is talking about Israel's spiritual condition. In fact, I believe that all the way from Jeremiah 2:1-20:18 concerns prophecies that are addressed to the people of Judah and Israel.
Through Jeremiah, God is letting His people know that they forgot what He remembers in Jeremiah 2:2-3.
In the particular passage of Jeremiah 4:19-31, God is letting His people know that they have become "sottish" = stupid. They have even forgotten how God had once made the earth to become 'without form, and void' (covered with water) and took His light away from the heavens: How He destroyed that first earth and heaven age due to the rebellion of Satan.
The four "I beheld" ( Jeremiah 4:23-26) are the words of God Himself, not Jeremiah, and I believe that He is referring to the condition the earth is found in at Genesis 1:2. I don't think this is a future punishment of Israel, but a reminder of the great Judgment from that time period.
The word "void" is found only twice in Scripture in the form of the Hebrew word "tohuw" meaning a 'vacuity,' an indistinguishable 'ruin.' That is Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23.
You answer so many questions and are a help to many people on this site, and to myself as well, many thanks.
I don't want to bother you with two more questions, but I am typing this out, so.......
I am wondering if you believe in three earth and heaven ages?
Is there a time period before Satan's punishment in the Garden of Eden that you place his fall for his conflict with God?
Re: the three Earth & heaven ages. I'm open to accepting this as a possibility simply because the Word is unclear on that period of time - only revealing what the state was in Gen chapter 1:1, 2 & the future renewal in Revelation 21. Whatever condition the universe & its worlds were in prior to Gen 1 can only be speculation.
Re: time period between Satan's rebellion & him being found in Eden. Genesis 3 is the first appearance of the Serpent as one of the animals in creation. Whether Satan who was cast out from Heaven ( Isa 14) then was in Eden ( Ezek 28) before man's fall or the other way around (i.e. he was first in Eden as God's cherub & then came his fall), I cannot ascertain from the Word - it's not clearly given.
So when the Word is unclear, my rule is that I'm to remain in ignorance & not proffer an answer. However, when people give their answer to these & other biblical subjects & don't provide a scriptural argument for it, then it remains a theory & a dangerous stand & belief to maintain.
Thank you EJL for your explanation & understanding of this passage. I re-looked at it 'through your eyes' & I'm still unable to apply your reference of Jer 4:23-26 to God's speaking of the Earth's former condition. Rather, I see this passage as alluding to it in its specific description.
My reasons are as follows: in prophetical writings, we have both the direct words of God to the prophet, whether words to the prophet or to the people. So in Jer 4:1-9, we see God speaking to Jeremiah. Then from verse 10: "Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD!...": we see Jeremiah responding to God. At times he's speaking as from the Lord or he is quoting the Lord (e.g. v17).
Then in verse 19, he exclaims: "My bowels, my bowels". This has to be Jeremiah's voice - I don't see God saying something like this: He never has before. Then verse 22 appears to be God's Words about these 'sottish' children. Verses 23-26 are now Jeremiah's "I behelds" as he envisions the destruction that will come to Israel & then v 27 qualifies that when the Lord says, "For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." And this goes on in the following verses.
So, I just can't see that this account relates back to God speaking about the Earth's former condition, but to Israel's future troubles. We may have to agree to disagree on that interpretation.
I believe you are correct as to the speaker being Jeremiah up until ( Jeremiah 4:26).
I was wondering, though, if you believe that this is a portrayal of Israel's future punishment, the devastation of this particular punishment of earth covered in water, and no light from heaven, has not come to pass. Is this yet still a future punishment awaiting Israel? If so, then what do we do with God's covenant to Noah in Genesis 9:8-17?
As to the three earth and heaven ages, have you considered 2 Peter chapter 3.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
I believe this is reference to the 1st earth and heaven age, which ended by being "overflowed with water," i.e., becoming "without form, and void."
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I understand this to be the 2nd heaven and earth age. Time present. From Genesis 1:2 on.
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I believe this is the 3rd heaven and earth age we are all looking forward to.
Heaven on earth ( Revelation 21:2)
Three heaven and earth ages; One heaven and one earth.
Concerning Satan, I would give reference to Job.
Satan I believe can be considered a "son of God," because he is referenced as being among them and with them to present himself to God in Job 1:6 and again in Job 2:1.
Satan is also included as being there with God when "the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy" ( Job 38:7) in reference to the creation of earth by God.
It seems as though Satan and the other angels may have been around before the creation of the earth itself.
"And the heavens & earth that are now", I don't regard as a stage because: 1. the heavens haven't changed in form or substance & 2. the earth is still essentially the same that was once submerged. I do agree with your 'Third heaven & earth stage', though.
Re: Satan & the Job reference. Probably my timeline would be as follows (& again, certainly not 'set in stone'): Lucifer was cast out of Heaven because of his rebellion ( Isaiah 14); he roamed the Earth (& elsewhere) & was in Eden at the creation of Adam & Eve ( Ezek 28); he appears with the Angels of God which seems to be an extraordinary event as God asks, "From where have you come?", as if to say, 'you aren't part of my angelic host, why have you joined them now?' Apparently, as a spirit he must have still had freedom to move wherever he wished. And yes, Satan, with the angelic host were created before the worlds were put together & probably, as you suggest, were included as the 'morning stars' in Job 38:7 (& this reference would precede the Isaiah 14 reference: before his rebellion).
Just my thoughts from my studies, but no doubt lacking for want of more biblical narrative & limited revealed light to me.
Thanks for your comments EJL, they're appreciated.
Re: Judah's future punishment. Just to clarify that Jeremiah was God's prophet to JUDAH specifically (he began his ministry under (good) King Josiah & then (bad) Kings Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim & Zedekiah) & Judah eventually then went into Babylonian captivity. What Jeremiah prophesied in chapter 4, & especially his vivid description of the destruction of the land (vv 23-29) was realised in the invasion of the King of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) in 597-586 BC. We aren't given specifics of that invasion, though Chapter 52 gives us some description of the city's destruction & the temple's desecration. Now, I agree that this hardly compares with 4:23-28, the picture revealed to Jeremiah, though some see this as a 'foretaste' of the future: a more thorough devastation of that land during the Great Tribulation. Maybe Jeremiah is using some scriptural licence to describe what he was seeing ("I beheld') in the coming destruction of the land & the captivity of Judah as there clearly wasn't a formless, void Earth devoid of light, etc. left from the Babylonian invasion.
Re: 1 Peter 3:5-7. As mentioned, I can't be dogmatic on this 'Creation' issue as I just don't have/see all the details. Though even looking at 1 Peter, I see verse 5 referring to the creation of the heavens & earth: the 'heavens', presumably the universe of celestial bodies and the 'earth', the dry land 'standing' = formed, established out of a large body of water & by its new above water level position, had the larger body of water surrounding it. Then of course, geology & seismic activity would allow for a further break up of that land into smaller land masses = continents. Then verse 6, I understand refers to the Great Flood where all 'perished'. I see that you apply this to a '1st Earth & Heaven stage' prior to the Flood though I'm struggling to see it this way.
We are now living in the first earth. This earth will be burnt up and then the second earth will come with no sin or any bad thing. Before it is burnt up all believers are taken to a place called paradise and a new earth will come down from and we will be transfered there.
Eve had 'flaternal'(?) twins?? What Scripture?
We've lived on the Earth millions of years? Any scriptural proof?
God's word reveals to us that the earth was "without form, and void." That is found in Jeremiah 4:23. Many people that worship God and Jesus understand this to have happened in the first earth age.
We know the phrase "without form, and void," from Genesis 1:2, and it means 'completely covered with water,' which is what the earth was before the 6 days of re-creation by God.
The 'Scriptural proof' you are requesting from Word 76 concerning people on earth a long time age can be found in Jeremiah 4:25, as God states that there was "no man." This is not reference to the flood of Noah's day, as Noah, his family, and animals, survived the flood. Neither was the heaven black or light taken from the earth at the flood of Noah's time. Neither were all the birds gone.
God declares to His children that they are "sottish," meaning foolish, because they do not care for or desire "understanding" of His word. God then reminds them, and reveals to us, how the earth came to be "without form, and void" and the heavens gave "no light."
We are also told that God did not make a "full end" of that destruction, i.e. the 6 days of re-creation in Genesis 1.
Given in ( Jeremiah 4:22 - 29) is information as to HOW God destroyed and made "desolate" the earth, and that He withdrew His light from the heavens. WHY His "fierce anger" was kindled can be found in chapter 14 of Isaiah ( Isaiah 14:1 - 32). Prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel is given. Within this prophecy, Satan is addressed symbolically as "Lucifer" (look at Isaiah 14:12 - 20)
The word of God does not declare that Eve had 'fraternal twins,' the point being made is that it is possible. Science states that it is possible to have twins with different fathers. I believe this could be a possibility.
We learn and teach with love! Nobody knows everything about Scripture, and we try to understand other peoples points of view with compassion and guidance.
Word 76, right on, keep up the good studying.
In the natural reading of that passage, Jeremiah is talking about Israel's spiritual condition, that they "circumcise their heart" rather than be the recipients of God's Wrath. Jeremiah goes on to describe that coming desolation from God (vv 11-20). Then Jeremiah saw the outcome of that desolation: vv 23-31, which included, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." This isn't a reference to creation (though with clear similarities) but to the destruction that would come if Israel continued in the way they were going.
And my (curt) response to Word 76, was to ask that if a claim is to be made or teaching from the Word to be given, then Scriptural support needs to be given (as you have done here to prove your understanding). Without support, then this being a public accessed Site will become a breeding ground for false teaching & I believe that has to be refuted. If for nothing else, so that those enquiring may also get 'the other side' of the biblical meaning. I fully agree, we can't know everything & we're still learning, but since our text book is God's Word, we should make appropriate reference from it & not from our musings.
Thanks for your response concerning Jeremiah 4.
Please don't feel that you have to apologize for your disagreement with how I see these verses, as respectful discourse brings forth better understanding.
I agree that the context must be examined and the interpretation of Scripture must be attained before any application to other Scripture is introduced and personal opinions are then formed.
You are correct that Jeremiah 4 is talking about Israel's spiritual condition. In fact, I believe that all the way from Jeremiah 2:1-20:18 concerns prophecies that are addressed to the people of Judah and Israel.
Through Jeremiah, God is letting His people know that they forgot what He remembers in Jeremiah 2:2-3.
In the particular passage of Jeremiah 4:19-31, God is letting His people know that they have become "sottish" = stupid. They have even forgotten how God had once made the earth to become 'without form, and void' (covered with water) and took His light away from the heavens: How He destroyed that first earth and heaven age due to the rebellion of Satan.
The four "I beheld" ( Jeremiah 4:23-26) are the words of God Himself, not Jeremiah, and I believe that He is referring to the condition the earth is found in at Genesis 1:2. I don't think this is a future punishment of Israel, but a reminder of the great Judgment from that time period.
The word "void" is found only twice in Scripture in the form of the Hebrew word "tohuw" meaning a 'vacuity,' an indistinguishable 'ruin.' That is Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23.
You answer so many questions and are a help to many people on this site, and to myself as well, many thanks.
I don't want to bother you with two more questions, but I am typing this out, so.......
I am wondering if you believe in three earth and heaven ages?
Is there a time period before Satan's punishment in the Garden of Eden that you place his fall for his conflict with God?
Thank You in advance,
EJL
Re: the three Earth & heaven ages. I'm open to accepting this as a possibility simply because the Word is unclear on that period of time - only revealing what the state was in Gen chapter 1:1, 2 & the future renewal in Revelation 21. Whatever condition the universe & its worlds were in prior to Gen 1 can only be speculation.
Re: time period between Satan's rebellion & him being found in Eden. Genesis 3 is the first appearance of the Serpent as one of the animals in creation. Whether Satan who was cast out from Heaven ( Isa 14) then was in Eden ( Ezek 28) before man's fall or the other way around (i.e. he was first in Eden as God's cherub & then came his fall), I cannot ascertain from the Word - it's not clearly given.
So when the Word is unclear, my rule is that I'm to remain in ignorance & not proffer an answer. However, when people give their answer to these & other biblical subjects & don't provide a scriptural argument for it, then it remains a theory & a dangerous stand & belief to maintain.
Thank you EJL for your explanation & understanding of this passage. I re-looked at it 'through your eyes' & I'm still unable to apply your reference of Jer 4:23-26 to God's speaking of the Earth's former condition. Rather, I see this passage as alluding to it in its specific description.
My reasons are as follows: in prophetical writings, we have both the direct words of God to the prophet, whether words to the prophet or to the people. So in Jer 4:1-9, we see God speaking to Jeremiah. Then from verse 10: "Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD!...": we see Jeremiah responding to God. At times he's speaking as from the Lord or he is quoting the Lord (e.g. v17).
Then in verse 19, he exclaims: "My bowels, my bowels". This has to be Jeremiah's voice - I don't see God saying something like this: He never has before. Then verse 22 appears to be God's Words about these 'sottish' children. Verses 23-26 are now Jeremiah's "I behelds" as he envisions the destruction that will come to Israel & then v 27 qualifies that when the Lord says, "For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." And this goes on in the following verses.
So, I just can't see that this account relates back to God speaking about the Earth's former condition, but to Israel's future troubles. We may have to agree to disagree on that interpretation.
Thank you for your various responses.
I believe you are correct as to the speaker being Jeremiah up until ( Jeremiah 4:26).
I was wondering, though, if you believe that this is a portrayal of Israel's future punishment, the devastation of this particular punishment of earth covered in water, and no light from heaven, has not come to pass. Is this yet still a future punishment awaiting Israel? If so, then what do we do with God's covenant to Noah in Genesis 9:8-17?
As to the three earth and heaven ages, have you considered 2 Peter chapter 3.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
I believe this is reference to the 1st earth and heaven age, which ended by being "overflowed with water," i.e., becoming "without form, and void."
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I understand this to be the 2nd heaven and earth age. Time present. From Genesis 1:2 on.
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I believe this is the 3rd heaven and earth age we are all looking forward to.
Heaven on earth ( Revelation 21:2)
Three heaven and earth ages; One heaven and one earth.
Concerning Satan, I would give reference to Job.
Satan I believe can be considered a "son of God," because he is referenced as being among them and with them to present himself to God in Job 1:6 and again in Job 2:1.
Satan is also included as being there with God when "the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy" ( Job 38:7) in reference to the creation of earth by God.
It seems as though Satan and the other angels may have been around before the creation of the earth itself.
Thanks,
EJL
"And the heavens & earth that are now", I don't regard as a stage because: 1. the heavens haven't changed in form or substance & 2. the earth is still essentially the same that was once submerged. I do agree with your 'Third heaven & earth stage', though.
Re: Satan & the Job reference. Probably my timeline would be as follows (& again, certainly not 'set in stone'): Lucifer was cast out of Heaven because of his rebellion ( Isaiah 14); he roamed the Earth (& elsewhere) & was in Eden at the creation of Adam & Eve ( Ezek 28); he appears with the Angels of God which seems to be an extraordinary event as God asks, "From where have you come?", as if to say, 'you aren't part of my angelic host, why have you joined them now?' Apparently, as a spirit he must have still had freedom to move wherever he wished. And yes, Satan, with the angelic host were created before the worlds were put together & probably, as you suggest, were included as the 'morning stars' in Job 38:7 (& this reference would precede the Isaiah 14 reference: before his rebellion).
Just my thoughts from my studies, but no doubt lacking for want of more biblical narrative & limited revealed light to me.
Thanks for your comments EJL, they're appreciated.
Re: Judah's future punishment. Just to clarify that Jeremiah was God's prophet to JUDAH specifically (he began his ministry under (good) King Josiah & then (bad) Kings Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim & Zedekiah) & Judah eventually then went into Babylonian captivity. What Jeremiah prophesied in chapter 4, & especially his vivid description of the destruction of the land (vv 23-29) was realised in the invasion of the King of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) in 597-586 BC. We aren't given specifics of that invasion, though Chapter 52 gives us some description of the city's destruction & the temple's desecration. Now, I agree that this hardly compares with 4:23-28, the picture revealed to Jeremiah, though some see this as a 'foretaste' of the future: a more thorough devastation of that land during the Great Tribulation. Maybe Jeremiah is using some scriptural licence to describe what he was seeing ("I beheld') in the coming destruction of the land & the captivity of Judah as there clearly wasn't a formless, void Earth devoid of light, etc. left from the Babylonian invasion.
Re: 1 Peter 3:5-7. As mentioned, I can't be dogmatic on this 'Creation' issue as I just don't have/see all the details. Though even looking at 1 Peter, I see verse 5 referring to the creation of the heavens & earth: the 'heavens', presumably the universe of celestial bodies and the 'earth', the dry land 'standing' = formed, established out of a large body of water & by its new above water level position, had the larger body of water surrounding it. Then of course, geology & seismic activity would allow for a further break up of that land into smaller land masses = continents. Then verse 6, I understand refers to the Great Flood where all 'perished'. I see that you apply this to a '1st Earth & Heaven stage' prior to the Flood though I'm struggling to see it this way.
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