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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 144476
I want to make a comment about the greatest problem in Christianity; namely, the falsehood of the Trinity.
There is no support of such a thing as a Trinity in the Bible. In contrast, tons of evidence exist in the religions of Egypt, Babylonia and Hinduism. The accepting of this belief among Christians may correctly be called the saddest event in the history of humanity.
God in His unimaginable mercy took on a body of flesh, placed our sins upon that body, and broke it. He raised it from the dead, and let it go up to heaven. The last words spoken by it were, "Go into all the world, preaching the Gospel. Baptise the believers in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." The disciples did just that. What Name? Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the name of God the father, and it is the name of the Son of God, and it is also the name of the Holy Ghost. God is a spirit. He took a name for us. It is Jesus Christ. The "Jesus" part of the name refers to the body which God used. The "Christ" part of the name refers to the manifested deity that was inside Jesus' body.
How terrible it is to then turn this incredible Gift of God into some freakshow three-in-one heathen concept of a Trinity. May God have mercy upon us all!
May we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! Amen!
Heb 1:5-8: "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten (Gk. prototokon, NOT 'protokitses'=first created) into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
May you come to understand this great Truth that alone could redeem us back to God & set us free from that awful penalty which we deserved. Blessings.
Thank you for taking the effort to reply to my comment. Everything else aside, I appreciate your time. (You mentioned a previous conversation; perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, unless you mean that one comment about whether there are still prophets.)
Let us just be careful: Ecclesiastes 6:11 The more words, the less meaning. You wrote a lot but I do not see much which is relevant to the topic at hand. I never denied Jesus Christ His deity. In contrast, I think Trinitarians deny His deity. I clearly said that Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Trinitarians say He is not the Father or the Holy Ghost. Actually I should level the denying deity accusation at YOU!
You say that the man Jesus could not be a sacrifice for sins. You say it has to be God that is the sacrifice. I do not understand your reasoning. The reason why the animal sacrifice had to be done yearly is because the sinner is not cleaned of his sin. He is still a sinner. He will walk away and sin again. The animal was a yearly covering for the sin. So the important thing is not the sacrifice. The important thing it that the sinner should not be a sinner any more. That is what the Holy Ghost does for us. We are washed once in the blood of Jesus, and then we can be filled with the Holy Spirit. I do not see why you say it is of no use that God create a human being to be the sacrifice. Sinlessness is the key.
Peace & Love to you. May God allow us all to know Him intimately.
If Jesus was just a created Being (i.e. a separate creation for the purposes of ministry to the Jews & for Sacrifice), then the point I made, is what difference is there between Him & the pure, spotless sacrificial animal? Both are pure, both are created, both were prescribed of God & yes, both would only offer a temporal covering for sin, leaving the sinner today, as the Jew of yesteryear, bereft of a worthy & eternal salvation. That is why the Scriptures reveal an unbreakable link of Jesus, God's Word, coming from God in Heaven & being made the only Sacrificial Lamb that would meet God's demands fully. A created Jesus would be just another human creation (would God even do that?), however perfect He would be, but would not meet the criteria that God required for our redemption, justification & adoption. Just as the animal sacrifice could not satisfy God's Anger but only put in 'a stay of execution' to those under the law/curse, so any other created being could never do so. God's Sacrifice - His Love - was fully accomplished by Him offering up of Himself through His only Begotten Son, making our redemption perfect & final - that was God's Plan from all eternity.
And I would take you up on your words: "The important thing is that the sinner should not be a sinner any more Sinlessness is the key". There should be time for that discussion - not now. Blessings.
Yes, dear Hugo, I was referring to our conversation on 'prophets'. Re: Ecclesiastes 6:11, I think you have the wrong reference; possibly Proverbs 10:19, though this too doesn't apply.
I realize that you're not denying the deity of Christ in one sense, but I would advise you that 'Trinitarians' likewise don't deny it either. A Trinitarian understanding of the Scriptures as you know, is that there is One God & that God has expressed Himself (& revealed to us) His Being. God shows us Himself also by His Word & His Spirit - you know the Scriptures that support this. Then at the appointed time ( Romans 5:6), God sent His Word ( John 1:14) to be clothed with flesh so that a full & permanent sacrifice could be made for sin unlike animal sacrifices.
After Christ's death, resurrection & ascension, He went to sit at the Father's right Hand ( Luke 22:69; Romans 8:34) where He "ever lives to make intercession for us" ( Hebrews 7:25; Romans 8:34). So we see the Father in Heaven, His Son (Word made flesh) at the Father's right Hand & His Spirit who indwells the believer ( John 14:17; Ephesians 1:13,14) & convicts men ( John 16:8). There is no such teaching from the Bible that Jesus only exists in Heaven & that the Father & Holy Spirit are now existing in Jesus. I know this is the teaching of the "Jesus Only" movement. The Father, the Son & the Spirit are still there & all three remain part of the Eternal Godhead (& yes, by all means, level your accusation at me), for the Bible is clear. If you have Scriptures to show that this is not the case, then I welcome your further input & my study.
Thank you again for your reply. Excuse me, I did not explain myself well when I quoted Ecclesiastes 6:11. The NIV Bible reads "The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?". My point was just that we should keep our words few to enhance the meaning and be clear.
Your second paragraph, which begins with "I realize...", I agree with completely. But why do we have to cut God up into different pieces and say They are different Persons in the Godhead. Why can we not see it as one Person just having different jobs. For example, I am a father, a son, a husband, etc., but still I am just one person. Is it not possible that God is expressing Himself in the same way? And we misunderstand it as being different Persons in the Godhead?
In your 3rd paragraph you wrote "So we see the Father in Heaven, His Son (Word made flesh) at the Father's right Hand & His Spirit who indwells the believer & convicts men". This appears to show different Persons, but look at what the apostle John saw in Revelations 4:2 - And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. / ONE sat on the throne and no other deity next to It or at Its right Hand. And concerning the Spirit indwelling the believer: Was it not God's purpose from the beginning to have intimate fellowship with His children; God in His fulness, not a third of the fulness.
I am not so familiar with Jesus Only ideas so I cannot comment on that.
And last; you asked: "If Jesus was just a created Being, what difference is there between Him & the pure, spotless sacrificial animal?" Answer: Jesus is a spiritual sacrifice which can touch our spirits, making us repent, filling us with God's Spirit, making us sinless and not needing any more sacrifice for sins. (1John3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.) Hallelujah!
Revelation 4:2: yes, that does show John viewing One sitting on the Throne, but when you read further in Revelation 5:6-9, we also see Jesus (God's Word sent to be made human, but now ascended to sit at God's right Hand). And we know that Jesus & God are there in Heaven by this verse & also Romans 8:34. So God's Word was made flesh & called "Jesus" but raised as 'God Who is also Man' in that Body fitted for Heaven, even as we shall be in that day ( 1 John 3:2). And yes, it was God's Plan from the beginning to have His children enjoy intimate fellowship with Him. And God is His Fullness (i.e. the Father, His Son & His Spirit Who are God in Unity) do enjoy such fellowship with His children. Each cannot feel differently about us (i.e. God cannot have fellowship with us, but the Son says "But I don't like that person, let's have a chat about this Father"). God is One & that Oneness is seen in His expressions of His Son & His Spirit & in their Unity & complete agreement.
Jesus as a 'created Being': Jesus' Sacrifice as a Man does indeed have spiritual consequences but cannot be seen as a spiritual Sacrifice. He was fully human & fully God, yet laying aside some of those Divine qualities for the purposes of the Incarnation & Sacrifice ( Philippians 2:5-11). To enable us to be convicted, to draw us to repentance, to give light & understanding, to renew us & fill us, to sanctify us & to raise us up to the heavenlies, is the work of God's Spirit. And Who is this Spirit? The self same Spirit that is part of the Father & the Son.
1 John 3:9: that's a separate subject that can be discussed if you desire, as its meaning needs analysis. Though the concept of sinless perfection is concerning. Blessings.
Hi Hugo, I understand the Ecclesiastes reference when I looked at the Hebrew word for "things", as applying to words, speech. The KJV doesn't write it that way. Yet, unlike you, I find it the opposite: when someone writes in more detail, I find that I can better understand the point he is making & so be able to discuss it. With too few words, often the understanding is incomplete.
It is true that God can be understood & experienced in many ways, such as a Father, a Friend, a Creator, a Comforter, etc., just as your example of a human family. But to do that, only gives us an experiential meaning (i.e. of one's experience of God). But to know the God of Heaven, then requires us to know Who He is in His Being. If God chose not to do so, then all we would have is a God that is known according to our experience of Him. But He has chosen to show us what makes up His Essence. And that Essence of God is seen also in His Word & His Spirit (Scriptures given previously). In other words, if His Word and/or His Spirit are absent, He wouldn't be God - His 'composition' is a God of Three Entities, as revealed to us.
For example, your friend would see you as Hugo, a man & his friend, but God sees the real you as a body, soul & spirit; if any of these 'parts' of you are absent, you wouldn't be Hugo that we know. The only reason we have a physical body, is to house the spirit & soul & that we can enjoy the life on Earth that God has blessed us with. That's why when Jesus dealt with people around Him, He cared not how they dressed or their appearance, but looked deep into them, into their spirit to know of what sort they were & what drove them. Likewise, God judges us not by our appearance, but the condition of our heart (i.e. if we have been changed by His Spirit or still subject to the sinful spirit of man).
Once more blessing in Christ on you dear brother Chris
I feel I have to alter the topic of the discussion for this reply as something came out in your post which startled me greatly.
I hope I misunderstood you, because I had the impression you wrote that Jesus Christ talks to God the Father like one person speaks to another person!!!
Do you really believe that? Do all Trinitarians believe it? I have never been long at a Trinitarian church so I honestly did not know this is believed. God have mercy on us. This is absolute polytheism! I thought you simply believed that God had three heads or three independant forms, but to say that one part of God talks to another part of God, and has a chat, this is unimaginable. This is 100% equal to Hinduism where (with all due respect to the Word stating we are not to even to say the names of idols) Shiva goes to visit Vishnu and they spend an hour having a debate about who is greater, or Buddhism where the Buddha may say a certain human needs to go to hell, but then Amitabha comes along and says that because the human visited his temple once he can be born on earth as a bird instead of going to hell, or Greek religion where Hera became jealous of Heracles because Zeus loved him more, etc.
My dear brother in Christ. Please consider what you are really believing. The very thing that caused God to make Abraham be taken out of his land to go to Canaan was that Abraham rejected the polytheism of his country. Out of a whole country he alone knew the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit. My ernest desire for you is to be the one person in your community who can leave the traditions of organized religion, and know the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit.
Peace and love in our one and only Lord, with none other equal who He can chat with as one among equals, Jesus Christ
This same Jesus, fully man & fully Divine, was crucified, buried, resurrected & ascended to the Father's right Hand. Where once, the Word proceeded out from God, the Word now in flesh, raised in a heavenly Body, sits as the Divine Man at God's right Hand. So Jesus, as we too will be in Heaven, can communicate with each other - I see no problem with this ( Hebrews 7:25).
And in regards to polytheism, by definition, is the multiplicity of gods. The Triune God is definitely not a polytheistic god - that would be sacrilege indeed. We don't have three gods in Heaven - there is only One God expressed in three Persons; I think you are understanding the Trinity teaching from a polytheistic perspective - God cannot be understood like that. If you see Jesus or the Holy Spirit as a lesser Entity, then you have not understood the Doctrine of God - all three in the Godhead are equally God & are the One God: co-equal & co-eternal.
I gave you the example of your personal trinitarian existence, Hugo: you're composed of spirit, soul & body. Do you accept that? Without even one of those 'parts' you wouldn't be Hugo - maybe you could be some type of sub-human or just floating about in spirit form. Or with the Sun in the Universe: a body of hot gases, giving heat & giving light (3 parts of the one). It wouldn't be a sun as we know, if any entity of it was absent. These are of course poor examples to try & explain the Triune God, but I'm trying to show you that a Trinity does not necessarily mean three that are separate from each other, but can also mean three in one, as with God. But in Heaven now, Jesus is seen as separate because of his taking on of flesh & rising in a heavenly Body. We will be like him in Heaven ( 1 John 3:2). So please rid your mind that Christians entertain a polytheistic belief of God - that is a wicked belief, as you clearly wrote. Blessings.
Thank you once again Hugo for your comments & observations. I'm sad that my comment on Jesus talking with the Father & the Trinitarian aspects troubled you, but I shall explain. Before Jesus' incarnation (when He was sent to Earth as a Man), Jesus is seen as God's Word ( John 1:1-14): only One God with His Word & His Spirit, as shown to us. That Word out of God accomplished many tasks, including in creation, the words given to the prophets, etc. Remember, at this point in time, there is only One God seen in His Fullness: His Word & Spirit.
At the time appointed, God sent forth His Word to His people, Israel ( Hebrews 1:1,2) & He was called the Son of God. But Jesus came not only to bring God's Message (as a Prophet of God would), but this Man Jesus came out of God to become like us in the flesh for the purposes of being the Perfect Sacrifice for mankind's redemption. What was limiting & failing before by using animal sacrifices was now acceptable to God in providing us His Lamb. As you know, Jesus in His humanity, suffered hunger, loneliness, pain, etc. as we do & even "tempted on all points as we are", but without sin, He became the Sacrifice that worked for us. He also prayed (talked) to the Father & did so very often, as you know.
I feel this topic is now leaving the realm of the Bible, and entering into unusual uses of words.
Just go to a person who knows nothing about Christianity and show him 3 pictures - one, a painting of Jesus; two, a blank picture which represents the Father; three, a picture of a dove which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Tell the man that you believe each picture shows God. Ask the man how many gods there then are. He will say three. Tell the man that although it looks like three, you belief that it is actually just one. The man will say you belief a strange thing. Then tell the man that this one God in three pieces can have conversations between these pieces and get new views and ideas from each piece, while still remaining just one God. - The poor man will probably think this is the weirdest thing he has ever heard in his life.
Look three divine worshipped persons make three gods, or language has lost its meaning entirely.
With all due respect, your example of comparing the Godhead to man's body, mind and soul is also problematic. There are enormous differences between the parts, and they do not sit around a table to have a chat.
What you wrote about God's plan of salvation, I agree with completely, but to then draw a conclusion of: so now the Three are all there like ducks in a row; this is wrong. The only Person (visible) is Jesus Christ. There is never in the Bible any other visible human form of God than Him. The Spirit coming upon a person is symbolized as a tongue of flame or a dove...
Dear brother. Consider if we may not perhaps be doing as the Samaritan woman was doing when Jesus Christ told her "You worship you know not what... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
The Holy Spirit resides in all who have come to faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:17) & also convicts men of sin, of righteousness & (coming) judgement. ( John 16:7-11). So the Spirit is still working in the World until the appointed time when He is taken away (some argue as to when that time will be). The Son has now returned to the Father (back into the God folder), but He is distinct in that He is now God in the flesh, not as only the Word, but as the Son who has performed all that was required of Him on Earth & now at the Father's right Hand in Heaven ( Hebrews 7:25). In the human mind this is a difficult concept to grasp & that is why you are having difficulties. If you want to understand God in a human perspective, it won't work because we don't have anything on this Earth that can adequately compare to Him & our minds don't work in any other way. But do we say then that because we don't believe that such a Trinity can exist, therefore it's impossible for God to be such? I think then, that it's us who have the problem in understanding the Character of God & not the Doctrine.
Yes, illustrating the Trinity to man's trinitarian composition, is 'problematic': no illustration can adequately do the job, but I felt compelled to use it to try & help you understand, but that didn't work. And lastly, God is Spirit ( John 4:24), the Word was part of that Spirit, & the Holy Spirit was sent out into the World. So we only knew & heard God as Spirit in the OT. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, we see the (visible) God in Jesus, but we also know that God is still there ( Revelation 8:2 & about 3,000 other verses to prove it). God hasn't disappeared & Jesus has not taken His place. So please look into this & see where your theology has become skewed or maybe you are under some false teaching. May the Lord give you light on this very important matter.
That's an interesting depiction of the Trinity you gave, Hugo. One problem though: you have shown to the non-Christian person three separate pictures which of course represent three different gods. That's not what it should be. If I had to use a similar illustration, I would say, show a folder (as one used for documents) & say that this represents God. Then take another folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Jesus". Finally, take a third folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Holy Spirit". So what do we have now? We still have three folders, but two of them are within God. But your non-Christian says, "I only see the God folder, where is Jesus & the Holy Spirit?" You can tell him where they are: they are within God or a part of God.
If he objects to this & says that once they are separated, they becomes three gods, then the answer to that is, that they are all in the one Godhead, but when they separate, they, as part of that Godhead, go out to perform what God intends. So we have the God folder, the Word folder & the Holy Spirit folder all in one God. God sends out His Word (as I wrote earlier), but instead of just words for a prophet to proclaim, e.g. like John the Baptist did, God made His Word a Man to not only be The Prophet, but also to be the sacrificial Lamb & Saviour, the eternal Priest & coming King. And because of this human birth made from Divine Seed (the Word), it is said that "He shall be called the Son of God" ( Luke 1:35).
In the Court of God, all men are guilty of sin & have to pay the penalty. In the court of man, we pay for our crimes & we are then released, but with God our payment can only lead to an eternal separation from God with no possibility of release. How can Jesus then say in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son"? Does His Love extend to just another sacrifice that was no better than the former? Or, does His Love speak to us in this way: 'because no sacrifice could pay for your sins, I provided the Sacrifice that would fully meet My demands of justice & full payment - Myself'. This was the only Sacrifice possible - all others have failed & would fail.
Back to 1 John 4:3. Men in Jesus' day knew Who Jesus was: a man, his mother Mary & (supposed) father, Joseph. Even today, most would not deny an historical Jesus Who walked the Earth. So John is not speaking of that Jesus, as a man ("come in the flesh"), but from & of God. That spirit of anti-Christ, just as the final anti-Christ still to come, will deny the divinity of Jesus but will seek to replicate His humanity through power, signs & wonders.
If one is to deny Christ His Deity, then one has to go to much pain to deny the Spirit His Deity. But if forced only to accept God the Father & His Spirit as One, then one would subscribe to a Binity God & that won't work either. It is safest to say that God expressed Himself by His Word & by His Spirit. His Word went to the prophets to bring God's Message to His people. "But in these last days hath spoken to us by His Son" ("the Word (God's Word) was made flesh & dwelt among us") Heb 1:2; Jn 1:14.
Hi again Hugo, I feel compelled to write again but won't repeat the pertinent accurate comments that Adam has given you. Have you seen this Scripture?
1 John 4:3: "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
Here is a warning by the apostle John to all his readers & this was given in the midst of gnostic thought that was intruding into the Church. Gnosticsm has many facets, but the one seen here is: "the incarnation (i.e. God coming in the form of man) is incredible because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, such as a body" (also referred to as Docetism). John is saying that the spirit behind the one who proclaims that Jesus Christ is simply just a good, perfect Man speaks by the spirit of anti-Christ & not of God. This is hard for me to say this to you given our past conversation, but the Word is clear & specific.
Because the Nature of God is hard to understand & sometimes likened to the pantheistic religions of the world, doesn't mean that our interpretation has evolved from them. Even if we break this down further: would a redemptive, substitutionary Sacrifice even be possible by a separate created Being from God? If it didn't work by using spotless animals as sacrifice in the past, it wouldn't work by a new creation of human. Why should God create a new human for the purpose of sacrifice? He could have done perfectly well with animal sacrifices & with faith in our offering & in God's acceptance of it, we should be in right standing before Him.
I'm not sure what your motive is for coming to a Christian Bible website and calling something that most Christians believe in a 'falsehood'. Where is your proof that what you're saying isn't a falsehood?
The reason people believe that the Father, the Son (the Word, or Jesus), and Holy Spirit are one is that the Bible literally says that in 1 John 5:7. If you hover over the links you'll see it.
So, since the Bible already says that, the real question is why don't you believe the Bible verse 1 John 5:7?
If you're looking for other Bible verses that support that, here they are: John 10:30, John 1:1, John 1:14 (The Word is Jesus Christ)
It shouldn't be too much of a surprise when Christians believe literally what the Bible says, so if you don't that means you must have a different interpretation of it, right? Of course most do not interpret it the way you do.
You wrote: "Jesus Christ is the name of God the father"
I'd like to ask what Bible verses do you believe supports that idea and where does it come from? Jesus is the same God, but a separate being/entity than God the Father. If He was exactly identical then the Bible would not have separated them into 3 entities/personalities or called them separate names, and wouldn't have given the verses it did. Since Jesus prayed to God the Father, is it logical that Jesus was praying to Himself? Matthew 26:39 - He said 'let this cup pass from me... not as I will, but thou wilt." This verse refutes your claim that they are both Jesus Christ. Would any of Jesus's prayers make sense of He was praying to Himself?
Thank you for you reply. To respond to your comments:
You ask where in the Bible does it say Jesus Christ is the name of the Father. The answer is: (directly) Isaiah 9:6 - He (Christ) shall be called the Father /// (indirectly) Acts 2:38 - Jesus Christ said to baptize in the name of the Father; the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
You quote 1John5:7. With all due respect, if you look it up, you will find that that verse was not in the Bible originally. The apostle John did not write it. Rather it was an addition by someone else around the year 1500.
You quote John 10:30, John 1:1, John 1:14: The spirit in Jesus is God. So of course Jesus can say that the Father and I are one. When a man says "I know", is it the body that knows? No, it is the spirit in the man that knows. Jesus Christ and God are one Spirit. /// The Word which was with God and became flesh is the Christ (a Spirit). Not the baby born in Bethlehem, but the Spirit inside that body.
You ask if Jesus prayed to Himself: That is absurd. The body called Jesus prayed to His Father whose Spirit was dwelling in Jesus just like it dwells in all sons and daughters of God.
You speak about Christians believing literally what the Bible says: This is NOT true. Think about things like female Christians cutting off their hair. Christians taking the Lord's Supper in the morning. Taking leavened bread instead of unleavened. Using juice instead of wine. Think about Christians not doing footwashing. Think about Christians saying it is okay to be gay. Saying it is okay for a woman to be a preacher. God have mercy upon us all.
Lastly, you ask about my motive: That is probably the hardest of your comments to respond to... To see if someone will be able to accept it.
Thank you for your respectful reply. I appreciate that. Some people are just looking to start quarrels and fights, but I now believe that is not your motive, but that you actually believe what you said to be true.
It sounds like you justified your belief by admitting that you don't believe the entire Bible, specifically 1 John 5:7, which you attempted to discredit. I believe the whole Bible including 1 John 5:7 as God's Word so I do not believe what you wrote. I think the bulk of your belief hinges on 1 verse Isaiah 9:6 which you strip out all the other meaning to focus on one word then conflate that word with God the Father then assume they are the same. This involves some mental gymnastics to come to your conclusion and I will prove how this is a logical fallacy. First you ignore all of Jesus' nicknames listed but zero in on 'everlasting father'. You then drop off the first word and and focus only on 'father' then you realize that God the father also has the word 'father' in it and assume they are the exact same being, despite billions of other fathers also existing on Earth. Does that mean all instances of 'father' in the Bible automatically mean God the father? Like Genesis 2:24 means to leave 'God the father' then? Obviously not. Genesis 9:18 says Ham is the father of Canaan- does this mean he's 'God the father' too like Jesus? If using the same logic this one is more likely to be conflated with God the father, because it directly says 'father' not 'everlasting father'- the one of many nicknames for Jesus. And again, Jesus praying to God the Father actually happened, and so Jesus obviously didn't pray to Himself. So, I think your position is refuted with scripture and logic, but if you don't believe parts of the Bible as you admitted then I can then see how you arrive at this distorted interpretation. I appreciate you sharing your interpretation, but I don't believe it's true. Have you prayed about this, to ask God for the truth? God bless you.
I want to make a comment about the greatest problem in Christianity; namely, the falsehood of the Trinity.
There is no support of such a thing as a Trinity in the Bible. In contrast, tons of evidence exist in the religions of Egypt, Babylonia and Hinduism. The accepting of this belief among Christians may correctly be called the saddest event in the history of humanity.
God in His unimaginable mercy took on a body of flesh, placed our sins upon that body, and broke it. He raised it from the dead, and let it go up to heaven. The last words spoken by it were, "Go into all the world, preaching the Gospel. Baptise the believers in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." The disciples did just that. What Name? Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the name of God the father, and it is the name of the Son of God, and it is also the name of the Holy Ghost. God is a spirit. He took a name for us. It is Jesus Christ. The "Jesus" part of the name refers to the body which God used. The "Christ" part of the name refers to the manifested deity that was inside Jesus' body.
How terrible it is to then turn this incredible Gift of God into some freakshow three-in-one heathen concept of a Trinity. May God have mercy upon us all!
May we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! Amen!
I liken their spiritual Jesus more to a Frankenstein Jesus made up of parts of scriptures.
But he will not deliver them in the end .
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh born of God in Bethlehem, now at the right hand of God , coming back in Glory ! Amen !
Heb 1:5-8: "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten (Gk. prototokon, NOT 'protokitses'=first created) into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
May you come to understand this great Truth that alone could redeem us back to God & set us free from that awful penalty which we deserved. Blessings.
Thank you for taking the effort to reply to my comment. Everything else aside, I appreciate your time. (You mentioned a previous conversation; perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, unless you mean that one comment about whether there are still prophets.)
Let us just be careful: Ecclesiastes 6:11 The more words, the less meaning. You wrote a lot but I do not see much which is relevant to the topic at hand. I never denied Jesus Christ His deity. In contrast, I think Trinitarians deny His deity. I clearly said that Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Trinitarians say He is not the Father or the Holy Ghost. Actually I should level the denying deity accusation at YOU!
You say that the man Jesus could not be a sacrifice for sins. You say it has to be God that is the sacrifice. I do not understand your reasoning. The reason why the animal sacrifice had to be done yearly is because the sinner is not cleaned of his sin. He is still a sinner. He will walk away and sin again. The animal was a yearly covering for the sin. So the important thing is not the sacrifice. The important thing it that the sinner should not be a sinner any more. That is what the Holy Ghost does for us. We are washed once in the blood of Jesus, and then we can be filled with the Holy Spirit. I do not see why you say it is of no use that God create a human being to be the sacrifice. Sinlessness is the key.
Peace & Love to you. May God allow us all to know Him intimately.
If Jesus was just a created Being (i.e. a separate creation for the purposes of ministry to the Jews & for Sacrifice), then the point I made, is what difference is there between Him & the pure, spotless sacrificial animal? Both are pure, both are created, both were prescribed of God & yes, both would only offer a temporal covering for sin, leaving the sinner today, as the Jew of yesteryear, bereft of a worthy & eternal salvation. That is why the Scriptures reveal an unbreakable link of Jesus, God's Word, coming from God in Heaven & being made the only Sacrificial Lamb that would meet God's demands fully. A created Jesus would be just another human creation (would God even do that?), however perfect He would be, but would not meet the criteria that God required for our redemption, justification & adoption. Just as the animal sacrifice could not satisfy God's Anger but only put in 'a stay of execution' to those under the law/curse, so any other created being could never do so. God's Sacrifice - His Love - was fully accomplished by Him offering up of Himself through His only Begotten Son, making our redemption perfect & final - that was God's Plan from all eternity.
And I would take you up on your words: "The important thing is that the sinner should not be a sinner any more Sinlessness is the key". There should be time for that discussion - not now. Blessings.
Yes, dear Hugo, I was referring to our conversation on 'prophets'. Re: Ecclesiastes 6:11, I think you have the wrong reference; possibly Proverbs 10:19, though this too doesn't apply.
I realize that you're not denying the deity of Christ in one sense, but I would advise you that 'Trinitarians' likewise don't deny it either. A Trinitarian understanding of the Scriptures as you know, is that there is One God & that God has expressed Himself (& revealed to us) His Being. God shows us Himself also by His Word & His Spirit - you know the Scriptures that support this. Then at the appointed time ( Romans 5:6), God sent His Word ( John 1:14) to be clothed with flesh so that a full & permanent sacrifice could be made for sin unlike animal sacrifices.
After Christ's death, resurrection & ascension, He went to sit at the Father's right Hand ( Luke 22:69; Romans 8:34) where He "ever lives to make intercession for us" ( Hebrews 7:25; Romans 8:34). So we see the Father in Heaven, His Son (Word made flesh) at the Father's right Hand & His Spirit who indwells the believer ( John 14:17; Ephesians 1:13,14) & convicts men ( John 16:8). There is no such teaching from the Bible that Jesus only exists in Heaven & that the Father & Holy Spirit are now existing in Jesus. I know this is the teaching of the "Jesus Only" movement. The Father, the Son & the Spirit are still there & all three remain part of the Eternal Godhead (& yes, by all means, level your accusation at me), for the Bible is clear. If you have Scriptures to show that this is not the case, then I welcome your further input & my study.
Thank you again for your reply. Excuse me, I did not explain myself well when I quoted Ecclesiastes 6:11. The NIV Bible reads "The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?". My point was just that we should keep our words few to enhance the meaning and be clear.
Your second paragraph, which begins with "I realize...", I agree with completely. But why do we have to cut God up into different pieces and say They are different Persons in the Godhead. Why can we not see it as one Person just having different jobs. For example, I am a father, a son, a husband, etc., but still I am just one person. Is it not possible that God is expressing Himself in the same way? And we misunderstand it as being different Persons in the Godhead?
In your 3rd paragraph you wrote "So we see the Father in Heaven, His Son (Word made flesh) at the Father's right Hand & His Spirit who indwells the believer & convicts men". This appears to show different Persons, but look at what the apostle John saw in Revelations 4:2 - And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. / ONE sat on the throne and no other deity next to It or at Its right Hand. And concerning the Spirit indwelling the believer: Was it not God's purpose from the beginning to have intimate fellowship with His children; God in His fulness, not a third of the fulness.
I am not so familiar with Jesus Only ideas so I cannot comment on that.
And last; you asked: "If Jesus was just a created Being, what difference is there between Him & the pure, spotless sacrificial animal?" Answer: Jesus is a spiritual sacrifice which can touch our spirits, making us repent, filling us with God's Spirit, making us sinless and not needing any more sacrifice for sins. (1John3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.) Hallelujah!
Peace & Love in Christ
Revelation 4:2: yes, that does show John viewing One sitting on the Throne, but when you read further in Revelation 5:6-9, we also see Jesus (God's Word sent to be made human, but now ascended to sit at God's right Hand). And we know that Jesus & God are there in Heaven by this verse & also Romans 8:34. So God's Word was made flesh & called "Jesus" but raised as 'God Who is also Man' in that Body fitted for Heaven, even as we shall be in that day ( 1 John 3:2). And yes, it was God's Plan from the beginning to have His children enjoy intimate fellowship with Him. And God is His Fullness (i.e. the Father, His Son & His Spirit Who are God in Unity) do enjoy such fellowship with His children. Each cannot feel differently about us (i.e. God cannot have fellowship with us, but the Son says "But I don't like that person, let's have a chat about this Father"). God is One & that Oneness is seen in His expressions of His Son & His Spirit & in their Unity & complete agreement.
Jesus as a 'created Being': Jesus' Sacrifice as a Man does indeed have spiritual consequences but cannot be seen as a spiritual Sacrifice. He was fully human & fully God, yet laying aside some of those Divine qualities for the purposes of the Incarnation & Sacrifice ( Philippians 2:5-11). To enable us to be convicted, to draw us to repentance, to give light & understanding, to renew us & fill us, to sanctify us & to raise us up to the heavenlies, is the work of God's Spirit. And Who is this Spirit? The self same Spirit that is part of the Father & the Son.
1 John 3:9: that's a separate subject that can be discussed if you desire, as its meaning needs analysis. Though the concept of sinless perfection is concerning. Blessings.
Hi Hugo, I understand the Ecclesiastes reference when I looked at the Hebrew word for "things", as applying to words, speech. The KJV doesn't write it that way. Yet, unlike you, I find it the opposite: when someone writes in more detail, I find that I can better understand the point he is making & so be able to discuss it. With too few words, often the understanding is incomplete.
It is true that God can be understood & experienced in many ways, such as a Father, a Friend, a Creator, a Comforter, etc., just as your example of a human family. But to do that, only gives us an experiential meaning (i.e. of one's experience of God). But to know the God of Heaven, then requires us to know Who He is in His Being. If God chose not to do so, then all we would have is a God that is known according to our experience of Him. But He has chosen to show us what makes up His Essence. And that Essence of God is seen also in His Word & His Spirit (Scriptures given previously). In other words, if His Word and/or His Spirit are absent, He wouldn't be God - His 'composition' is a God of Three Entities, as revealed to us.
For example, your friend would see you as Hugo, a man & his friend, but God sees the real you as a body, soul & spirit; if any of these 'parts' of you are absent, you wouldn't be Hugo that we know. The only reason we have a physical body, is to house the spirit & soul & that we can enjoy the life on Earth that God has blessed us with. That's why when Jesus dealt with people around Him, He cared not how they dressed or their appearance, but looked deep into them, into their spirit to know of what sort they were & what drove them. Likewise, God judges us not by our appearance, but the condition of our heart (i.e. if we have been changed by His Spirit or still subject to the sinful spirit of man).
I feel I have to alter the topic of the discussion for this reply as something came out in your post which startled me greatly.
I hope I misunderstood you, because I had the impression you wrote that Jesus Christ talks to God the Father like one person speaks to another person!!!
Do you really believe that? Do all Trinitarians believe it? I have never been long at a Trinitarian church so I honestly did not know this is believed. God have mercy on us. This is absolute polytheism! I thought you simply believed that God had three heads or three independant forms, but to say that one part of God talks to another part of God, and has a chat, this is unimaginable. This is 100% equal to Hinduism where (with all due respect to the Word stating we are not to even to say the names of idols) Shiva goes to visit Vishnu and they spend an hour having a debate about who is greater, or Buddhism where the Buddha may say a certain human needs to go to hell, but then Amitabha comes along and says that because the human visited his temple once he can be born on earth as a bird instead of going to hell, or Greek religion where Hera became jealous of Heracles because Zeus loved him more, etc.
My dear brother in Christ. Please consider what you are really believing. The very thing that caused God to make Abraham be taken out of his land to go to Canaan was that Abraham rejected the polytheism of his country. Out of a whole country he alone knew the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit. My ernest desire for you is to be the one person in your community who can leave the traditions of organized religion, and know the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit.
Peace and love in our one and only Lord, with none other equal who He can chat with as one among equals, Jesus Christ
This same Jesus, fully man & fully Divine, was crucified, buried, resurrected & ascended to the Father's right Hand. Where once, the Word proceeded out from God, the Word now in flesh, raised in a heavenly Body, sits as the Divine Man at God's right Hand. So Jesus, as we too will be in Heaven, can communicate with each other - I see no problem with this ( Hebrews 7:25).
And in regards to polytheism, by definition, is the multiplicity of gods. The Triune God is definitely not a polytheistic god - that would be sacrilege indeed. We don't have three gods in Heaven - there is only One God expressed in three Persons; I think you are understanding the Trinity teaching from a polytheistic perspective - God cannot be understood like that. If you see Jesus or the Holy Spirit as a lesser Entity, then you have not understood the Doctrine of God - all three in the Godhead are equally God & are the One God: co-equal & co-eternal.
I gave you the example of your personal trinitarian existence, Hugo: you're composed of spirit, soul & body. Do you accept that? Without even one of those 'parts' you wouldn't be Hugo - maybe you could be some type of sub-human or just floating about in spirit form. Or with the Sun in the Universe: a body of hot gases, giving heat & giving light (3 parts of the one). It wouldn't be a sun as we know, if any entity of it was absent. These are of course poor examples to try & explain the Triune God, but I'm trying to show you that a Trinity does not necessarily mean three that are separate from each other, but can also mean three in one, as with God. But in Heaven now, Jesus is seen as separate because of his taking on of flesh & rising in a heavenly Body. We will be like him in Heaven ( 1 John 3:2). So please rid your mind that Christians entertain a polytheistic belief of God - that is a wicked belief, as you clearly wrote. Blessings.
Thank you once again Hugo for your comments & observations. I'm sad that my comment on Jesus talking with the Father & the Trinitarian aspects troubled you, but I shall explain. Before Jesus' incarnation (when He was sent to Earth as a Man), Jesus is seen as God's Word ( John 1:1-14): only One God with His Word & His Spirit, as shown to us. That Word out of God accomplished many tasks, including in creation, the words given to the prophets, etc. Remember, at this point in time, there is only One God seen in His Fullness: His Word & Spirit.
At the time appointed, God sent forth His Word to His people, Israel ( Hebrews 1:1,2) & He was called the Son of God. But Jesus came not only to bring God's Message (as a Prophet of God would), but this Man Jesus came out of God to become like us in the flesh for the purposes of being the Perfect Sacrifice for mankind's redemption. What was limiting & failing before by using animal sacrifices was now acceptable to God in providing us His Lamb. As you know, Jesus in His humanity, suffered hunger, loneliness, pain, etc. as we do & even "tempted on all points as we are", but without sin, He became the Sacrifice that worked for us. He also prayed (talked) to the Father & did so very often, as you know.
I feel this topic is now leaving the realm of the Bible, and entering into unusual uses of words.
Just go to a person who knows nothing about Christianity and show him 3 pictures - one, a painting of Jesus; two, a blank picture which represents the Father; three, a picture of a dove which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Tell the man that you believe each picture shows God. Ask the man how many gods there then are. He will say three. Tell the man that although it looks like three, you belief that it is actually just one. The man will say you belief a strange thing. Then tell the man that this one God in three pieces can have conversations between these pieces and get new views and ideas from each piece, while still remaining just one God. - The poor man will probably think this is the weirdest thing he has ever heard in his life.
Look three divine worshipped persons make three gods, or language has lost its meaning entirely.
With all due respect, your example of comparing the Godhead to man's body, mind and soul is also problematic. There are enormous differences between the parts, and they do not sit around a table to have a chat.
What you wrote about God's plan of salvation, I agree with completely, but to then draw a conclusion of: so now the Three are all there like ducks in a row; this is wrong. The only Person (visible) is Jesus Christ. There is never in the Bible any other visible human form of God than Him. The Spirit coming upon a person is symbolized as a tongue of flame or a dove...
Dear brother. Consider if we may not perhaps be doing as the Samaritan woman was doing when Jesus Christ told her "You worship you know not what... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Peace & love in Jesus Christ
The Holy Spirit resides in all who have come to faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:17) & also convicts men of sin, of righteousness & (coming) judgement. ( John 16:7-11). So the Spirit is still working in the World until the appointed time when He is taken away (some argue as to when that time will be). The Son has now returned to the Father (back into the God folder), but He is distinct in that He is now God in the flesh, not as only the Word, but as the Son who has performed all that was required of Him on Earth & now at the Father's right Hand in Heaven ( Hebrews 7:25). In the human mind this is a difficult concept to grasp & that is why you are having difficulties. If you want to understand God in a human perspective, it won't work because we don't have anything on this Earth that can adequately compare to Him & our minds don't work in any other way. But do we say then that because we don't believe that such a Trinity can exist, therefore it's impossible for God to be such? I think then, that it's us who have the problem in understanding the Character of God & not the Doctrine.
Yes, illustrating the Trinity to man's trinitarian composition, is 'problematic': no illustration can adequately do the job, but I felt compelled to use it to try & help you understand, but that didn't work. And lastly, God is Spirit ( John 4:24), the Word was part of that Spirit, & the Holy Spirit was sent out into the World. So we only knew & heard God as Spirit in the OT. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, we see the (visible) God in Jesus, but we also know that God is still there ( Revelation 8:2 & about 3,000 other verses to prove it). God hasn't disappeared & Jesus has not taken His place. So please look into this & see where your theology has become skewed or maybe you are under some false teaching. May the Lord give you light on this very important matter.
That's an interesting depiction of the Trinity you gave, Hugo. One problem though: you have shown to the non-Christian person three separate pictures which of course represent three different gods. That's not what it should be. If I had to use a similar illustration, I would say, show a folder (as one used for documents) & say that this represents God. Then take another folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Jesus". Finally, take a third folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Holy Spirit". So what do we have now? We still have three folders, but two of them are within God. But your non-Christian says, "I only see the God folder, where is Jesus & the Holy Spirit?" You can tell him where they are: they are within God or a part of God.
If he objects to this & says that once they are separated, they becomes three gods, then the answer to that is, that they are all in the one Godhead, but when they separate, they, as part of that Godhead, go out to perform what God intends. So we have the God folder, the Word folder & the Holy Spirit folder all in one God. God sends out His Word (as I wrote earlier), but instead of just words for a prophet to proclaim, e.g. like John the Baptist did, God made His Word a Man to not only be The Prophet, but also to be the sacrificial Lamb & Saviour, the eternal Priest & coming King. And because of this human birth made from Divine Seed (the Word), it is said that "He shall be called the Son of God" ( Luke 1:35).
Thanks you once more for you reply. Let us leave it there for now as I digest what has been offered to me.
Peace and love in Christ to you and the children of God where you are.
In the Court of God, all men are guilty of sin & have to pay the penalty. In the court of man, we pay for our crimes & we are then released, but with God our payment can only lead to an eternal separation from God with no possibility of release. How can Jesus then say in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son"? Does His Love extend to just another sacrifice that was no better than the former? Or, does His Love speak to us in this way: 'because no sacrifice could pay for your sins, I provided the Sacrifice that would fully meet My demands of justice & full payment - Myself'. This was the only Sacrifice possible - all others have failed & would fail.
Back to 1 John 4:3. Men in Jesus' day knew Who Jesus was: a man, his mother Mary & (supposed) father, Joseph. Even today, most would not deny an historical Jesus Who walked the Earth. So John is not speaking of that Jesus, as a man ("come in the flesh"), but from & of God. That spirit of anti-Christ, just as the final anti-Christ still to come, will deny the divinity of Jesus but will seek to replicate His humanity through power, signs & wonders.
If one is to deny Christ His Deity, then one has to go to much pain to deny the Spirit His Deity. But if forced only to accept God the Father & His Spirit as One, then one would subscribe to a Binity God & that won't work either. It is safest to say that God expressed Himself by His Word & by His Spirit. His Word went to the prophets to bring God's Message to His people. "But in these last days hath spoken to us by His Son" ("the Word (God's Word) was made flesh & dwelt among us") Heb 1:2; Jn 1:14.
Hi again Hugo, I feel compelled to write again but won't repeat the pertinent accurate comments that Adam has given you. Have you seen this Scripture?
1 John 4:3: "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
Here is a warning by the apostle John to all his readers & this was given in the midst of gnostic thought that was intruding into the Church. Gnosticsm has many facets, but the one seen here is: "the incarnation (i.e. God coming in the form of man) is incredible because Deity cannot unite itself with anything material, such as a body" (also referred to as Docetism). John is saying that the spirit behind the one who proclaims that Jesus Christ is simply just a good, perfect Man speaks by the spirit of anti-Christ & not of God. This is hard for me to say this to you given our past conversation, but the Word is clear & specific.
Because the Nature of God is hard to understand & sometimes likened to the pantheistic religions of the world, doesn't mean that our interpretation has evolved from them. Even if we break this down further: would a redemptive, substitutionary Sacrifice even be possible by a separate created Being from God? If it didn't work by using spotless animals as sacrifice in the past, it wouldn't work by a new creation of human. Why should God create a new human for the purpose of sacrifice? He could have done perfectly well with animal sacrifices & with faith in our offering & in God's acceptance of it, we should be in right standing before Him.
I'm not sure what your motive is for coming to a Christian Bible website and calling something that most Christians believe in a 'falsehood'. Where is your proof that what you're saying isn't a falsehood?
The reason people believe that the Father, the Son (the Word, or Jesus), and Holy Spirit are one is that the Bible literally says that in 1 John 5:7. If you hover over the links you'll see it.
So, since the Bible already says that, the real question is why don't you believe the Bible verse 1 John 5:7?
If you're looking for other Bible verses that support that, here they are: John 10:30, John 1:1, John 1:14 (The Word is Jesus Christ)
It shouldn't be too much of a surprise when Christians believe literally what the Bible says, so if you don't that means you must have a different interpretation of it, right? Of course most do not interpret it the way you do.
You wrote: "Jesus Christ is the name of God the father"
I'd like to ask what Bible verses do you believe supports that idea and where does it come from? Jesus is the same God, but a separate being/entity than God the Father. If He was exactly identical then the Bible would not have separated them into 3 entities/personalities or called them separate names, and wouldn't have given the verses it did. Since Jesus prayed to God the Father, is it logical that Jesus was praying to Himself? Matthew 26:39 - He said 'let this cup pass from me... not as I will, but thou wilt." This verse refutes your claim that they are both Jesus Christ. Would any of Jesus's prayers make sense of He was praying to Himself?
God bless...
Thank you for you reply. To respond to your comments:
You ask where in the Bible does it say Jesus Christ is the name of the Father. The answer is: (directly) Isaiah 9:6 - He (Christ) shall be called the Father /// (indirectly) Acts 2:38 - Jesus Christ said to baptize in the name of the Father; the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
You quote 1John5:7. With all due respect, if you look it up, you will find that that verse was not in the Bible originally. The apostle John did not write it. Rather it was an addition by someone else around the year 1500.
You quote John 10:30, John 1:1, John 1:14: The spirit in Jesus is God. So of course Jesus can say that the Father and I are one. When a man says "I know", is it the body that knows? No, it is the spirit in the man that knows. Jesus Christ and God are one Spirit. /// The Word which was with God and became flesh is the Christ (a Spirit). Not the baby born in Bethlehem, but the Spirit inside that body.
You ask if Jesus prayed to Himself: That is absurd. The body called Jesus prayed to His Father whose Spirit was dwelling in Jesus just like it dwells in all sons and daughters of God.
You speak about Christians believing literally what the Bible says: This is NOT true. Think about things like female Christians cutting off their hair. Christians taking the Lord's Supper in the morning. Taking leavened bread instead of unleavened. Using juice instead of wine. Think about Christians not doing footwashing. Think about Christians saying it is okay to be gay. Saying it is okay for a woman to be a preacher. God have mercy upon us all.
Lastly, you ask about my motive: That is probably the hardest of your comments to respond to... To see if someone will be able to accept it.
Peace & Love in Christ
Thank you for your respectful reply. I appreciate that. Some people are just looking to start quarrels and fights, but I now believe that is not your motive, but that you actually believe what you said to be true.
It sounds like you justified your belief by admitting that you don't believe the entire Bible, specifically 1 John 5:7, which you attempted to discredit. I believe the whole Bible including 1 John 5:7 as God's Word so I do not believe what you wrote. I think the bulk of your belief hinges on 1 verse Isaiah 9:6 which you strip out all the other meaning to focus on one word then conflate that word with God the Father then assume they are the same. This involves some mental gymnastics to come to your conclusion and I will prove how this is a logical fallacy. First you ignore all of Jesus' nicknames listed but zero in on 'everlasting father'. You then drop off the first word and and focus only on 'father' then you realize that God the father also has the word 'father' in it and assume they are the exact same being, despite billions of other fathers also existing on Earth. Does that mean all instances of 'father' in the Bible automatically mean God the father? Like Genesis 2:24 means to leave 'God the father' then? Obviously not. Genesis 9:18 says Ham is the father of Canaan- does this mean he's 'God the father' too like Jesus? If using the same logic this one is more likely to be conflated with God the father, because it directly says 'father' not 'everlasting father'- the one of many nicknames for Jesus. And again, Jesus praying to God the Father actually happened, and so Jesus obviously didn't pray to Himself. So, I think your position is refuted with scripture and logic, but if you don't believe parts of the Bible as you admitted then I can then see how you arrive at this distorted interpretation. I appreciate you sharing your interpretation, but I don't believe it's true. Have you prayed about this, to ask God for the truth? God bless you.
Thank you again for your reply, and your appreciation.
I will consider what you have written.
Peace & Love in Christ
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