I see so many comments on here. One that really disturbed me was from Bro. D: His saying "if u still sin; your heart is not right.!"
Really? Guess Paul's heart was not right, because he said that he sinned!
All of this born of God stuff in 1st John completely ties together with what Jesus said about being born again!
Jesus said being born again was a must, and the only way we could enter heaven!
Then he told us on down in the same chapter of John three how to be born again!
By believing in him!
If you do, you will never die and you have everlasting life!
It changes you.
You are no longer a dead spirit and flawed flesh, but a brand new spirit that cannot sin!!!
Because you are born of God and his incorruptible seed remains in you !!!
You are incorruptible!!
Perfect!
Holy!
Righteous!
But your old flesh is still flawed!!!
But it no longer counts against you in regard to eternity and your standing with God!!!
But your flesh is still going to die!
It's still desiring to sin!
Still needing to be controlled by you!!!
And this is why Jesus says if we love him, to keep his commandments!
Our spirits cannot sin when we belong to Jesus!
But our flesh can and does!
God tells us to die to the sinful desires of our flesh!
Daily!!!
Our righteousness can never be taken away!
Our salvation can never be lost !!!
Because it is Jesus' righteousness that we have now, not because we stopped sinning, but because he made us born again new spirits that cannot sin, or ever be corrupted like the first spirit was!!!
All because of Jesus!!!!
Our spirit in his Spirit!
We are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth inside of us! If we don't have the Spirit of Christ inside of us, then we aren't his!!!
Praising the Lord Jesus Christ for giving us his righteousness, and not leaving our salvation subject to failure again by our actions!!!
Salvation is truly a free gift by grace thru faith in Jesus! Guaranteed unloseable, by God.
Thank you Gary for that great & accurate declaration of a believer's condition & standing before God.
Galatians 5:16-18: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
The war continually rages between our renewed (born again) spirits & the appeal of carnal flesh. Many just give up & submit to the flesh & continue to do so, erroneously believing that "my salvation & eternity are secure through this great transaction".
Romans 8:8-10: "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
The Word is clear: as those born again from above, we live according to direction & power of the Holy Spirit & not inclined towards the appeal of the flesh. Though our bodies are corrupt & decaying because of the effects of sin, one day they too will be renewed in that great Translation Day, in which both spirit & the incorruptible body will be taken away to enjoy eternity with the LORD & His Christ.
Yes, Paul struggled with the pull by the spirit & the flesh, & he called it "a war" between his members (Romans chapter 7). If you were referring to the same brother as I'm thinking of, he also said that Paul's struggle happened when he was still bound in his old nature (as an unregenerate Jew), not having Christ's Spirit. But that chapter doesn't suggest that at all, showing the struggle that exists, indeed must be real & constant, in every believer who is still on this Earth & having the Spirit of Christ in him. Saved sinners are not exempt.
Thanks for your comments and sharing of the scripture! Sounds as though we are in agreement about the subject of salvation and the change that takes place the instant that we believe.
However, your following comment I found to be somewhat puzzling:
"Many just give up & submit to the flesh & continue to do so, erroneously believing that "my salvation & eternity are secure through this great transaction".
It is very easy to take this attitude regarding our actions in the flesh, knowing that salvation cannot be lost, it seems much easier to give in to the sinful desires than to stand up against them out of love, honor and obedience to God!
It was pretty much my attitude for the first 50 years or so of my Christianity!
But while I erred in attitude, I was not "erroneous" in my belief that my salvation was secured by the Holy Spirit of God!
God sees us as the new incorruptible spirit he creates with the Spirit of Christ inside us, when he makes us born again!
He no longer sees us as lost sinners with flawed flesh and a dead spirit!
Because his Spirit remains inside of us, we are holy, righteous, incapable of sinning, and we are incorruptible!
If God did not do it this way, making us with an incorruptible new spirit, it would take but one sin to cause us to be lost again, forever!
Because as the scripture explains in Hebrews chapter 6, if a person who is saved could actually lose his salvation by sinning, it would be impossible to save us again! Pointing out once again that it's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that covers our debt, FOREVER, once and for eternity!
Thank God our salvation is not dependent upon our sinless walk, because if sin could derail salvation, it would only take one sin!!!
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies!
I will say this: If a person has truly trusted in Jesus, they are born again.
A born again Christian sins.
That is inevitable.
But a born again Christian can never lose his salvation!
Thanks again Gary - yes, we're on the 'same page' on this very important matter.
Just to clarify what I wrote, that puzzled you: I was thinking of the believer, who, in his war against the enticements of his flesh, simply cannot find the spiritual fortitude & faith in God to be an overcomer. Even his spiritual armour appears weak & useless when in confrontation. Rather than persisting in the battle (for it is a very long & relentless battle that we fight), he continues to weaken, giving further & further into sin, when finally he consoles himself by stating that all cannot be lost as he is still saved & secure through Christ.
My statement may have conveyed the thought that this sinning believer had a defective understanding of his salvation & its permanence. Rather, I hoped that it conveyed, that the sinning believer actually fully trusted in the security of his salvation however that by continuing to sin in the flesh, he believed it would not have an effect on his salvation. I hope this clarifies my wording.
But of course, that type of understanding is very wrong. God's judgement will come upon him if he chooses to surrender in the battle, even though all of Heaven's resources are at his disposal. Indeed, Paul's painful & stern warning came to those who sinned in such manner (with the example of fornication in the Church): 1 Corinthians chapter 5, where such were to be cast back into Satan's domain that the flesh may be destroyed, so that the spirit might one day be saved. (Also seen in 1 Corinthians 11:27).
As you said, sin will come to the believer, but as a Spirit-filled person, he deals with it & certainly never lets it take control, rather allowing the Spirit to minister God's Grace for forgiveness & healing.
Chris, thanks again for your comments! Excellent example from 1 Corinthians chapter five!
I trusted Jesus at about eight years of age. I was well aware of his presence well before that.
Like most believers, I accepted things of the world as normal and acceptable. Things that most Christians don't see anything wrong with, so they embrace them, without even thinking or realizing that these things are things we should not embrace!
Little things, like listening to pop music!
Who doesn't listen to pop music, right?
But it's total garbage!
It sings about sinful actions, and makes them all sound so natural and normal.
But the natural man is flawed by sin!!! So while it's natural, even normal, it's not acceptable to God, and therefore something believers should avoid!
It all starts little. Baby steps in the wrong direction, fast forward fifty years, and it's amazing I wasn't already turned over to Satan for my flesh to be destroyed! ( No, I wasn't doing that, but my sins were pretty horrible nonetheless !)
I struggled. God was patient!
Things got very bad. My life and marriage nearly ruined.
Sins we commit, don't just hurt us, but they hurt others as well, and they hurt our mission for why we are even here!
All things are created by him and for him!
It DOES MATTER that we resist temptation!!!
Our salvation is secure, but there are still consequences for sinning!!!!
Even though it's not our spirits that are sinning, but our flesh, and even though it's not derailing our salvation, it's having consequences and may well prevent others we were supposed to reach for Christ, from ever coming to be his child!
I don't want to be that guy!!!
I want my Savior to be pleased with my actions in my flesh.
I'm not trying to win a prize, or salvation.
I already have that.
He's already given me the perfect spirit that doesn't sin and cannot be flawed, and unrevokable salvation, kept by his power!
I just want to honor him, and love him for making me his child!
Once again, thank you for your great testimony Gary & all that you've shared here. Indeed, the incomprehensible wonder of it all: that God should choose us to be IN HIM even before the foundation of the World, to be holy creatures & without blame before Him; & also being predestined unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto Himself, Ephesians 1:4,5. Thus, as His children, so greatly blessed to have His Spirit indwell us, we can only but cry out "Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant (as serving under the Law that brought judgement & death), but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." Galatians 4:6,7. What a privilege we have to be called the children of God & what the full import of that will be when we all stand together in that coming day, in great joy before His Glory having full understanding & in perfect love. We can hardly restrain ourselves awaiting that time ( 1 Corinthians 2:9,10).
And yet, in the flesh, we often fail to restrain ourselves from sin. Even knowing to do good, but not following through with it, it becomes sin to us ( James 4:17). We could cry out with the apostle, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?" What a beautiful & correct answer: it's only possible "through Jesus Christ our Lord" ( Romans 7:24,25). It's by Jesus' Blood He cleanses us, by His Spirit He delivers us, & by His Promise He receives us as His children, made worthy to share in His Glory.
Unworthy as we might feel to receive any crown or prize, as the work of Grace in us has been all from Him & of Him, yet as the apostle ran his earthly race, he only saw the prize that lay before him that kept him alert, motivated & on proper course: the prize of his "high calling OF God IN Christ Jesus" ( Philippians 3:14): ultimately to be in the Lord's Presence, finding full rest from his manifold temptations & difficult labours.
Every blessing to you & to Richard - thanks for popping by.
Really? Guess Paul's heart was not right, because he said that he sinned!
All of this born of God stuff in 1st John completely ties together with what Jesus said about being born again!
Jesus said being born again was a must, and the only way we could enter heaven!
Then he told us on down in the same chapter of John three how to be born again!
By believing in him!
If you do, you will never die and you have everlasting life!
It changes you.
You are no longer a dead spirit and flawed flesh, but a brand new spirit that cannot sin!!!
Because you are born of God and his incorruptible seed remains in you !!!
You are incorruptible!!
Perfect!
Holy!
Righteous!
But your old flesh is still flawed!!!
But it no longer counts against you in regard to eternity and your standing with God!!!
But your flesh is still going to die!
It's still desiring to sin!
Still needing to be controlled by you!!!
And this is why Jesus says if we love him, to keep his commandments!
Our spirits cannot sin when we belong to Jesus!
But our flesh can and does!
God tells us to die to the sinful desires of our flesh!
Daily!!!
Our righteousness can never be taken away!
Our salvation can never be lost !!!
Because it is Jesus' righteousness that we have now, not because we stopped sinning, but because he made us born again new spirits that cannot sin, or ever be corrupted like the first spirit was!!!
All because of Jesus!!!!
Our spirit in his Spirit!
We are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth inside of us! If we don't have the Spirit of Christ inside of us, then we aren't his!!!
Praising the Lord Jesus Christ for giving us his righteousness, and not leaving our salvation subject to failure again by our actions!!!
Salvation is truly a free gift by grace thru faith in Jesus! Guaranteed unloseable, by God.
Galatians 5:16-18: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
The war continually rages between our renewed (born again) spirits & the appeal of carnal flesh. Many just give up & submit to the flesh & continue to do so, erroneously believing that "my salvation & eternity are secure through this great transaction".
Romans 8:8-10: "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
The Word is clear: as those born again from above, we live according to direction & power of the Holy Spirit & not inclined towards the appeal of the flesh. Though our bodies are corrupt & decaying because of the effects of sin, one day they too will be renewed in that great Translation Day, in which both spirit & the incorruptible body will be taken away to enjoy eternity with the LORD & His Christ.
Yes, Paul struggled with the pull by the spirit & the flesh, & he called it "a war" between his members (Romans chapter 7). If you were referring to the same brother as I'm thinking of, he also said that Paul's struggle happened when he was still bound in his old nature (as an unregenerate Jew), not having Christ's Spirit. But that chapter doesn't suggest that at all, showing the struggle that exists, indeed must be real & constant, in every believer who is still on this Earth & having the Spirit of Christ in him. Saved sinners are not exempt.
However, your following comment I found to be somewhat puzzling:
"Many just give up & submit to the flesh & continue to do so, erroneously believing that "my salvation & eternity are secure through this great transaction".
It is very easy to take this attitude regarding our actions in the flesh, knowing that salvation cannot be lost, it seems much easier to give in to the sinful desires than to stand up against them out of love, honor and obedience to God!
It was pretty much my attitude for the first 50 years or so of my Christianity!
But while I erred in attitude, I was not "erroneous" in my belief that my salvation was secured by the Holy Spirit of God!
God sees us as the new incorruptible spirit he creates with the Spirit of Christ inside us, when he makes us born again!
He no longer sees us as lost sinners with flawed flesh and a dead spirit!
Because his Spirit remains inside of us, we are holy, righteous, incapable of sinning, and we are incorruptible!
If God did not do it this way, making us with an incorruptible new spirit, it would take but one sin to cause us to be lost again, forever!
Because as the scripture explains in Hebrews chapter 6, if a person who is saved could actually lose his salvation by sinning, it would be impossible to save us again! Pointing out once again that it's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that covers our debt, FOREVER, once and for eternity!
Thank God our salvation is not dependent upon our sinless walk, because if sin could derail salvation, it would only take one sin!!!
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies!
I will say this: If a person has truly trusted in Jesus, they are born again.
A born again Christian sins.
That is inevitable.
But a born again Christian can never lose his salvation!
Just to clarify what I wrote, that puzzled you: I was thinking of the believer, who, in his war against the enticements of his flesh, simply cannot find the spiritual fortitude & faith in God to be an overcomer. Even his spiritual armour appears weak & useless when in confrontation. Rather than persisting in the battle (for it is a very long & relentless battle that we fight), he continues to weaken, giving further & further into sin, when finally he consoles himself by stating that all cannot be lost as he is still saved & secure through Christ.
My statement may have conveyed the thought that this sinning believer had a defective understanding of his salvation & its permanence. Rather, I hoped that it conveyed, that the sinning believer actually fully trusted in the security of his salvation however that by continuing to sin in the flesh, he believed it would not have an effect on his salvation. I hope this clarifies my wording.
But of course, that type of understanding is very wrong. God's judgement will come upon him if he chooses to surrender in the battle, even though all of Heaven's resources are at his disposal. Indeed, Paul's painful & stern warning came to those who sinned in such manner (with the example of fornication in the Church): 1 Corinthians chapter 5, where such were to be cast back into Satan's domain that the flesh may be destroyed, so that the spirit might one day be saved. (Also seen in 1 Corinthians 11:27).
As you said, sin will come to the believer, but as a Spirit-filled person, he deals with it & certainly never lets it take control, rather allowing the Spirit to minister God's Grace for forgiveness & healing.
I trusted Jesus at about eight years of age. I was well aware of his presence well before that.
Like most believers, I accepted things of the world as normal and acceptable. Things that most Christians don't see anything wrong with, so they embrace them, without even thinking or realizing that these things are things we should not embrace!
Little things, like listening to pop music!
Who doesn't listen to pop music, right?
But it's total garbage!
It sings about sinful actions, and makes them all sound so natural and normal.
But the natural man is flawed by sin!!! So while it's natural, even normal, it's not acceptable to God, and therefore something believers should avoid!
It all starts little. Baby steps in the wrong direction, fast forward fifty years, and it's amazing I wasn't already turned over to Satan for my flesh to be destroyed! ( No, I wasn't doing that, but my sins were pretty horrible nonetheless !)
I struggled. God was patient!
Things got very bad. My life and marriage nearly ruined.
Sins we commit, don't just hurt us, but they hurt others as well, and they hurt our mission for why we are even here!
All things are created by him and for him!
It DOES MATTER that we resist temptation!!!
Our salvation is secure, but there are still consequences for sinning!!!!
Even though it's not our spirits that are sinning, but our flesh, and even though it's not derailing our salvation, it's having consequences and may well prevent others we were supposed to reach for Christ, from ever coming to be his child!
I don't want to be that guy!!!
I want my Savior to be pleased with my actions in my flesh.
I'm not trying to win a prize, or salvation.
I already have that.
He's already given me the perfect spirit that doesn't sin and cannot be flawed, and unrevokable salvation, kept by his power!
I just want to honor him, and love him for making me his child!
And yet, in the flesh, we often fail to restrain ourselves from sin. Even knowing to do good, but not following through with it, it becomes sin to us ( James 4:17). We could cry out with the apostle, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?" What a beautiful & correct answer: it's only possible "through Jesus Christ our Lord" ( Romans 7:24,25). It's by Jesus' Blood He cleanses us, by His Spirit He delivers us, & by His Promise He receives us as His children, made worthy to share in His Glory.
Unworthy as we might feel to receive any crown or prize, as the work of Grace in us has been all from Him & of Him, yet as the apostle ran his earthly race, he only saw the prize that lay before him that kept him alert, motivated & on proper course: the prize of his "high calling OF God IN Christ Jesus" ( Philippians 3:14): ultimately to be in the Lord's Presence, finding full rest from his manifold temptations & difficult labours.
Every blessing to you & to Richard - thanks for popping by.
Just wanted to let you know that I very much enjoyed reading all of your posts, both of you, between one another in this thread.
God Bless you my brothers in Christ.
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