Bible Discussion Thread

The church has been telling lies to the people. No one is free from sin who lives in sin!!!! I repeat! No one is free from sin who lives in sin! The only thing that saves you from sin is not to do it!!! Keep the laws statutes and commandments and judgments of the Most High . Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand!

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, & please forgive me if I am. But the Bible states otherwise than your overall message.

While it's true that many church institutions (& traditions) teach lies, & while it's true that nobody who lives in (I guess you mean habitual) sin is free from sin, not one of us is, has been, or ever will be able, in this life, to be free from sin by trying to obey all of God's laws.

It's impossible for us to do this perfectly, 100% of the time, & under or in any & all circumstances! That's why Jesus Christ did it for us instead, praise Him!

I once thought Lordship Salvation (which your message seems to espouse) was correct, but recently I (& others) have learned that it's a heresy.

Our attempts at obeying God don't save us from sin! Nor do they "keep" us saved or "maintain" our salvation. (& disobedience, after being saved, doesn't cause us to lose our salvation.)

Repentance is important in salvation & for sanctification, but repentance (or anyone/thing else, includ. the keeping of the Law) isn't the Savior, the Son of God is.

Jesus Christ is the only one who kept the Law perfectly & was, is, & will always be sinless; He is our perfect & complete sacrifice for our sins!

I pray that you & others would see this truth! It isn't right that anyone should be held in bondage to this legalistic, joy-destroying, Christ-depreciating false gospel.

More info. can be found in Dr. Gene Kim's Youtube videos:

"Can You Be Wicked and Still Saved? Shocking Answer - Dr. Gene Kim"

"WORRIED About Salvation When You Fail Works? ( Eph. 2:9-10) | Dr. Gene Kim"

"If I Keep Sinning, Am I Still Saved? ABSOLUTELY! ( Eph. 1:5-6) | Dr. Gene Kim"

& also just search for:

"Dr. John R. Rice's Rebuttal Of Lordship Salvation"

(As found on jesus-is-savior, & others; since I'm hindered from listing the addresses, you'll need to search the above terms.)

I enjoyed reading your comments & response & do agree with what you've written. Though, I had to spend a little time considering your understanding of "Lordship Salvation". As much as I detest such categories, I realize that these terms are necessary for an understanding of a person's position without the need to detail all the beliefs that come under its umbrella.

After reading more about Lordship Salvation (LS), I actually seem to agree with it, when one considers its antithesis, "Easy Believism", which I certainly don't espouse to. You wrote that LS, as you've recently learned, is heresy. You also wrote about it: "Our attempts at obeying God don't save us from sin! Nor do they "keep" us saved or "maintain" our salvation. (& disobedience, after being saved, doesn't cause us to lose our salvation.)." Forgive my ignorance, but does LS actually infer that obedience to God saves us/keeps us saved from sin, likewise, disobedience causes loss of salvation?

I couldn't find the above claims by those proponents of LS, rather that it is a correct understanding of Scripture, to indicate that a person truly saved by the Blood of Christ & reborn, will in all seriousness & compulsion, want to live for the One Who purchased him & be His disciple in all areas of life. There will be times of falling into sin, not unrestrained sin of course, but the Spirit within will immediately impress conviction, with great spiritual discomfort & a requirement to seek forgiveness & change. If he should neglect this & continue to persist in disobedience, then his testimony before the Lord might seem hypocritical to us, but ultimately to be judged & dealt with by the Lord & not us.

So, what I'm saying, is that I agree with you, it's just that I'm unaware of LS propagating a teaching of 'salvation through Christ & the keeping of the Law'. Of course, I have other views of the application of the Law in the life of the believer in Christ: but that's another matter for another time. Blessings.

I'm sorry for the slow reply. Thanks for your patience & gracious words earlier. I think you agree w/me insofar as whatever I've written that is Biblical, but God should get the credit.

What you ascribe to Lordship Salvation (LS) ("a correct understanding" of the Word) is what belongs to the true Gospel of grace, & what you describe is salvation (s) & discipleship (d) intermixed. LS teaches that d is part of & is basically proof of s. If so, then Paul would've not been saved (re. his flesh & sin in Rom. 7). We should want to obey God, but not one of us does this perfectly due to our flesh & the abuse of our free will.

Easy Believism is wrong, but so is LS. They are 2 faulty extremes of understanding the Gospel.

LSists at least imply that s is kept by good works. There tends to be a lot of double-talk. Beyond the links of my 1st msg., here I give 2 very condensed ex.'s.

"...[B]ut the keeping of the commandments is an instrument-a necessary instrument-through which the grace of God flows and keeps us in Christ, the principle of reward for us. Thus, we have to keep the commandments to be saved, but we understand it is only through grace that we can do so...St. Paul makes clear that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their 'flesh,' or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven...Here [re. Gal. 6:7] St. Paul teaches that through good works, or continuing to "sow to the Spirit," we will be rewarded with eternal life, but only if we persevere." - "Are Good Works Necessary for Salvation?" by Tim Staples (dated 4/30/15)

In "Faith, Works, and Regeneration, Paul Washer" (video-10/4/12 by "MrHarms" on YouTube), @ the 1:34-1:39 marks, Washer said, "If you don't have works, you're going to hell." Re. apple trees (at); I think that an at w/o fruit is still an at, for it has at DNA. See whole vids for context. (This 1 is an excerpt from "Paul Washer Evangelistic Message - DSFC 2012 (1-12-12)" (video-1/17/12 by "GraceBaptist1689").)

Hope this helps, & thanks!