Bible Discussion Thread

2 Samuel 2:16 While reading the scriptures I have questions about this seemingly 12 acts of mutual suicide. Could their lives not have been better used in battle???

This portion of Scripture isn't about "mutual suicide". We have the servants (no doubt, warriors) of Ishbosheth (pertaining to Israel) & those of David (pertaining to Judah) facing each other by the pool. The suggestion by Abner (of Israel) for their men to have some 'sword play' & had their larger bodies of warriors as spectators. Apparently, those 24 men all killed each other in this small battle & the ensuing (larger) battle that followed by the remaining armies, saw Israel losing altogether to David's army.

So I see that the intent of these armies facing each other was to do battle, but that little insert of the 24 men sparring with each other was just the 'taster' to start the battle going & not to commit suicide.

Thanks so much for the reply Chris but it is not sufficient enough to relieve my feelings regarding this matter. What you say seems to be about the way I understand it. What I am saying is that this all seems like a total misuse of soldiers in battle. Each of these men that lost their lives in a "game" perhaps could have taken many lives of their enemies if allowed to fight with their weapons (swords) the way intended instead of confining them to sure death along with their adversary as I see the "rules" of the game to lead them. Is this not a silly thing to do? Were these men volunteers or was there a reason for those particular 24 being there under those circumstances? What, I ask you is ENTERTAINING about watching 12 struggles of this nature in a cesspool of death anyway? No, what I would ask some of you historians is an explanation of this mayhem. The ONLY possible reason for this is because both sides wanted to be able to provide 12 men with enough courage to meet their death this way since the other side was able to provide 12 to do so. Can anyone help me?

I hope you can receive other views here Marcus, or else find further explanation & expansion of this biblical account elsewhere. It may well be that this "game" was actually a part of a greater battle that could have been pursued or prevented depending on the outcome of these 24 engaged in sword play. Not having the full story before us, leaves one speculating, so any opinion may be worthy of consideration.

I did find the following by renowned commentator, Charles Ellicott: on verse 14: "To avoid unnecessary bloodshed between the tribes of a common parentage, and also, perhaps, to prevent the weakening of the nation in the face of their common Philistine foe, Abner proposes that the struggle should be decided by a combat between a few champions chosen on either side, and Joab immediately accepts the proposal. Hervey (Speaker's Commentary) aptly compares this combat to that of the Horatii and Curiatii, under strikingly similar circumstances and with similar results, as described by Livy (I., 100 10:25)."

And to verse 17: "The combat of the twelve on each side having decided nothing, the two hosts joined battle. Abner and the Israelites were worsted (sic). The numbers engaged were probably not large, as the whole number of the slain was nineteen on David's side, and 360 on that of Israel ( 2Samuel 2:30-31). It was, however, a turning-point in the struggle."

These comments still don't answer your question, but I can only assume that with the lower sanctity of life of those days, particularly in times of warfare or when clear or assumed disobedience to the Law was evidenced, that the lives that could have been used in full-blown battle could also be used in any prelude to it. The question that actually came to my mind was how was it not possible that at least a couple of men could have survived this 24 man encounter, even with suffering severe injuries, but that all suffered the same fate. I guess some things we will never know.

Chris, thank you so much for your time and all you have said I think has validity. Of course my feelings about this matter are bordering on what seemingly is the lack of value of earthly lives back then. Of course this all points to that fallen angel Satan. He likes causing unbelief and doubt where he can. That's what he is doing to me. He has NOT got me to disbelieve any of God's word or weakened my faith I talked to my pastor about this and he did not have an answer for me but told me he would be trying to find a reasonable explanation for the games . If the games did in fact lessen the severity of upcoming battles then that sounds like it was worthwhile.