Warning: session_start(): open(/var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80/sess_3vuot8efdq20sej630uh50b6el, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2
Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 152183
I try to understand it..But if so be it that these were other languages understandable by other and yet unlearned or can be interpreted, are they the same as angelic tongues? And second are they the ones the apostle paul talks about in corinthians 13 and 14? Thanks
Yes, I believe that the same Gift of other Tongues that was given at Pentecost, or in Acts 10:45,46, is the same that Paul speaks about in 1 Corinthians chapters 13 & 14. There was no difference: from the same Spirit & for the same purpose, to testify of the Spirit's entrance & for the worship to God, whether in Church or in private.
1 Corinthians 13:1: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." I can't speak about the Spirit giving an 'angelic' language to speak. What Paul was referring to in this verse, was to share the message of the superiority of Love over all Gifts of the Spirit. Even if he could speak in both human & angelic language, if love was missing in his life & ministry, then all that 'language' would be as noise; it would be useful, but love was the under girding principle in everything for the believer. And he takes that thought further in verse 2, 'if he had knowledge of everything or even mountain-moving faith' (which he didn't claim to have), if love was missing, then even in these things, he would be as "nothing" in God's Eyes. So, I don't understand that Paul was speaking of a heavenly language as a Gift, but was showing a comparison of the low worth of all Gifts (including Tongues), in comparison to the chief Gift of Love.
Although the Holy Ghost was given by a holy and loving god, its primary purpose is to indue power to further ones ability to witness and proclaim the redemptive offer of Christ. (day of Pentecost) It also allows the receiver to pray in a way you could not prior to being filled. This gift is for all who desire and seek it. Paul said in acts he spoke in tongues more than any of the believers. But he was speaking of his own prayer time with god. The people were confused of it's use in the church. If a believer does not desire a closer relationship, and stronger ability to be his witness, they should forgo asking him for this precious and powerful gift. Although it is for all who ask, all will not ask.
From that account of the conversion of Cornelius & others of his household, when the Spirit fell upon them, they spoke in other tongues, i.e. the same Gift that the apostles received during Pentecost, proving that they had also received the same Spirit & that even the Gentiles could be saved. They spoke in languages that they never learned but their speech was understood by those who knew the language or maybe, interpretation was given. That is why Peter & the others heard those people "magnify God" through these unlearned languages.
My comments are all scripturally sound and I challenge anyone to go to the scriptures and check the sacriptures that we referance. Im deeply concerned about the so called "Chrisitan " doctrines/ teachings in the Chrisitian community. Most of them aren't scriptural. Baptism for instance. For the most part water baptism isn't seen as necessary for salvation. So many Chrisitans believe that lie simply because a well meaning person told them baptism wasn't for salvation. This is scriptural, the plan of salvation was first explained in the book of Acts 2. Repent, be baptiszed in Jesus name for --the REMISSION ( the act of resovling or remitting sins) of sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. Being baptized in Jesus name remitts sin, this is scripturally correct.!!! Heres a question. Jesus is the way and the door correct? So why don't we baptized in Jesus name like the scriptures tell us?? Scripturally all men are saved the same way.There is only one Gospel and one way to be saved.Look at the scriptural referances of the people who accepted the Gopsel and were saved. Jesus told his deciples before his accension to go the Jersulem and tarry for the promise of the Father.The promise of the Father was was fulfill in Acts 2. The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost and salvation.All through the book of Acts we see how ALL people recieved salvation the very same way.John3:5 agrees with Acts 2:38. Being born of water (baptism) and recieving the Holy Ghost.
Johnny - If baptism is a requirement of salvation, then why did Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:17 say " For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:"? If baptism is a requirement of salvation, don't you think the greatest missionary that ever lived (other than Jesus) would be baptizing everyone he could?
Also, in 1 Corinthians 1:14, he said "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;"
You make some very good points. If I may just add my thoughts on water baptism for whatever it is worth. I believe water baptism is important but I also believe that it is to be done after salvation, not as a requirement for salvation.
Jesus said in Acts 1:5, For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
It is interesting that Jesus repeats what the bible says in so many places, is that the Lord's ministry is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John says I baptize with water but the one coming after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And that's what He's repeating here in Verse 5.
When a person receives the Holy Spirit they are cleansed. That's why it is called baptized. Baptize means two things. Number one, cleansing, and number two, identification.
In 1 Corinthians 10:1, it says that the Jewish people were baptized into Moses under the cloud and through the sea. That's when the Red Sea was parted and they went through. It doesn't mean they had a baptismal ceremony. It just means that they obeyed Moses when he said let's go. And their identification was with Moses.
Now those two meanings for the word "baptism," is what we celebrate today. The moment that I am saved, I receive His Spirit into my spirit, and I am cleansed. And when I get water baptized, that is a testimony, my identification that I have received Christ and I'm saved. That is called believer's baptism.
Jesus' ministry is to baptize with His Spirit. When we receive Christ, we receive His Spirit. We are born of His Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is salvation. Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:13 says you are baptized with the Spirit when you are brought into the body of Christ, when you're saved.
I would strongly suggest just reading the Bible with an open heart and mind and pray to God for wisdom and understanding. Seek and ye shall find. I think God wants to be sought so we may know Him.
I would also be very cautious of everything man says and would pretty much disregard this. If you just stay in God's Word and keep at it truly seeking Him and following Jesus, I think you're on the right track.
Let me share you a template response that anytime I hear sets off alarms to me. "You don't really don't have to _____" for example "You don't have to do __________ to be saved." Just fill in the blank, it almost doesn't even matter what people say when I hear this blank filled, because it just seems to all fit the same format. If I imagine a serpent whispering it to me and it makes it even more scary. If the Bible says one thing, but man says you don't have to do it, I tend to not believe man. I also question the motives: what is the real underlying reason for not wanting to do this or that?
Is the goal to do the absolute bare minimum as a Christian in attempt to 'get in' to heaven? If so, that person's motives are seriously in question. I don't think God wants your bare minimum effort, but all of you. The greatest commandment is to love God with ALL your heart and ALL your soul. Is someone truly doing that if they're always looking to do only the bare minimum luke-warm effort? Maybe their heart isn't even on following Jesus, but the sin of the world as his idol, but assumes he's a saved Christian because someone told him that once. I think for that person this verse is applicable: Matthew 10:28
I agree with you, water baptism is not a requirement for salvation,
And rather go through the scripture as usual to show the definition and it being a symbolic testimony of what Christ crucifixion and resurrection DONE FOR US.
Let's examine the text in Acts 2:38.
Lets see if Peter gave them two things to do or did he give them one thing to do for the remission of sins.
1) Did Peter say unto them, Repent, and " BE " baptized?
Or
2) Did Peter say unto them, Repent and "GET" baptized?
Homely example:
You're sitting at home watching TV. Your son is standing in front of the TV,
( YOU TELL HIM TO SIT DOWN AND GET OUT THE WAY! )
He does " one " thing.
He sat down, when he did he got out the way.
Note: ALL JEWS HERE IN ACTS.
( Acts 2:38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. )
The jews believed in Judaism and believed their salvation rested on it.
Jesus was announced by his forerunner "John the baptist "
Jesus met all the criteria given by the prophecies of the old testament and the Law, He committed the miracles.
The message to the Jews was to
REPENT FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF.
( ACCEPTING THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB )
So when those who repented they "WERE" Baptized.
( They were put into the body of believers, Identified with Christ and the Resurrection "IMMEDIATELY" AND SUPER NATURALLY, BY THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT. ) and THEN we're they baptized with water to profess their faith.
S Spenser ,this is for you because you are a regular contributor on here and therefore in a position of responsibility and also for any one who does not belive that we neeed to be baptized ,i will start with Jesus words and finish with them ,if our Lord cannot convince you then i shant try any more ,pleeease read : Mark ch16 v16 ,Acts ch2 v38-41 ,ch8 v12-16 and v36 ,ch9 v18 ,ch10 v47&48 ,ch16 v15&33 ,ch18 v8 ,ch19 v3-5 and Acts ch22 v16 . Romans ch6 v3 ,1st Cor ch1 v16 ,ch12 v13 . Gal ch3 v27 and finally Matthew ch28 v19 .
You gave a lot of Scripture, But unfortunately you've misinterpreted all of them.
However you're right about one thing, " You're not going to convince me about anything, And I'm not sure that's your intentions.
I'm not going to go through all of these scriptures but I will dig into the first one.
Mark 16:16. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED.
( When and how was he or she baptized in the first half of this verse?)
Answer is: When they believed!! Only the Holyspirit can put you into the body of Christ! Not water.
1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a QUICKENING SPIRIT. ( Life giving spirit.)
Can you get water baptism and NOT BELIEVE AND BE SAVED? No.
Here's the second part of this scripture
"but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Does it say but he that is not baptized shall be damned? No.
Now parallel that with these well known verse by the Lord.
John 3:16-18. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
" THIS PARALLELS WITH WHAT LORD IS SAYING IN MARK 16:16. ( but he that believeth not shall be damned.)
John says himself that he baptized with water BUT he shall baptize you with the Holyspirit.
S Spenser ,im sorry to say that my conscience will not allow me to keep silent on this matter , i believe you are greatly in error and i have to say so , i have no idea why you would have such an aversion to baptism but i hope that you will read all the scriptures i offered ,there are plenty of others i could have given you , i will leave you with this last one : 1st Peter ch3 v18-21 , i will not discuss this with you again as i shall not read any more of your posts , with all my heart i hope you will recognise your error and turn from it soon .
I'd estimate that 90% of all differences of opinion here stems from "cherry picking" scripture.
1. Person A says 'I believe in scripture A'.
2. Person B says 'yah, but what about scripture B?!'
3. Person A says 'yah, but what about scripture A?!'
What is needed is ALL the verses in context: A+B+C+D+E... to all be considered for a full understanding + seeking God through prayer and asking for understanding.
Example:
Does the Bible says believe and you're saved. Yes. Is that ALL it says? No. Do these contradict? No. Genuinely believing assumes action is associated with such a belief- otherwise, it suggests lack of belief.
James 2:18-19 - Even demons believe. Ok, so maybe we should do just the "bare minimum" more than believe, but no more, because then it would be "legalism" (some actually believe this). Satan believed too and was cast out of heaven. Hitler probably believed then later murdered 6 million Jews.
Person A is yah, just FAITH only
Person B is yah, but WORKS too!
Person A is no, just FAITH!
James 2:18 says it's BOTH! A genuine Christian does both, because a genuine Christian will bear fruit and do good works. Good works is GOOD, not bad as some falsely assume. Love your neighbor as yourself is 2nd greatest commandment and showing love is a good work. It also says we need to confess. We can call that scripture C in this case. 1 John 1:9. We'll find more relevant scripture too if we keep reading the Word.
Romans 6:1-4 . What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 8:11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
James 2:20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 7:17-20. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
2 Peter 1:20-21. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Isaiah 28:9-10. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
The Same message is spread throughout the bible. a little here, and a little there.
Johnny Williams ,i believe you are totally correct ,Jesus is our example ,if it was right for him to do it and we are supposed to be following him ,then it is what we should be doing too ,it astounds me that some people dont understand this .
It is proper tradition to be baptized, John the Baptist offered it, but what about the people who by no fault of their own didn't get baptized? Surely God would look in their hearts and baptize them with the Holy Ghost. God wants us circumcised inwardly, not of the flesh.
I wonder how many capital criminals behind bars were baptized?
Rudy Mitzer ,im sure you can see the difference between being unable to get baptized through no fault of your own and rejecting being baptized even though you could be and also encouraging others not to be baptized even though they are able to be and also ignoring and disregarding what it says in the Bible .
S Spencer The Work of The spirit through the baptism of the Holyspirit Ephesians - In Reply - 3 years ago
Part 1.
BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT.
An ( INWARD) WORK OF GOD through the Holyspirit Identifying us with the death and resurrection of Christ.
WATER BAPTISM.
An ( OUTWARDLY) testimony expressed by you testifying you believe what's mentioned above is to be true and a work of God.
Here's the work of the baptism of the Holyspirit spirit ( IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE)
You will see the death and resurrection and newness of life in these verses!
Ephesians 4:1-15. I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, "ONE BAPTISM,"
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, AND IN YOU ALL.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ASCENDED up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.)
AND HE GAVE some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST:
Till we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
THAT WE HENCEFORTH BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, AND CARRIED ABOUT WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
BUT SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, MAY GROW UP INTO HIM IN in ALL THINGS, WHICH IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST:
S Spencer The work of the spirit through baptism of the Holyspirit Ephesians 4 - In Reply - 3 years ago
Baptism of The Holyspirit.
We see the work of the spirit through the baptism of the Holyspirit in Ephesians.
Of people debate if baptism by water is essential for salvation as well as can you loose your salvation. if what's mentioned in Ephesians is not present in your life it's possible you never had salvation.
Everyone dipped in water wasn't internally cleaned, never was the old man crucified and no evidence of the New Man.
Fruitless , Still dead in trespass and sins!!
BECAUSE WATER BAPTISM IS JUST AN CEREMONIAL OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF WHAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE ONCE AND IF YOU ( TRULY) BELIEVED.
Did you notice Verse 5?
Ephesians 4:4-5. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM,"
Does that mean water baptism and means the same? NO!
JOHN SAYS HE BAPTIZED WITH WATER BUT CHRIST WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLYSPIRIT!!
Water baptism is a ceremonial profession of your faith.
And "IF" your profession was real only then you will see spiritual growth through feeding on the word.
No longer tossed to and fro by strange doctrine. Trying to understand scripture through the wisdom of the world, so called "common sense" fleshly minds, God's word will be written on your Fleshly Tables of the heart. Not a heart of stone!! This in the inner Man!! and A New life!
S Spencer The work of the spirit through baptism of the Holyspirit Ephesians 4 - In Reply - 3 years ago
Baptism of The Holyspirit.
Part 3. with corrections.
We see the work of the spirit through the baptism of the Holyspirit in Ephesians.
Often people debate if baptism by water is essential for salvation as well as can you loose your salvation. if what's mentioned in Ephesians is not present in your life it's possible you never had salvation.
Everyone dipped in water wasn't internally cleaned, never was the old man crucified and no evidence of the New Man.
Fruitless , Still dead in trespass and sins!!
BECAUSE WATER BAPTISM IS JUST AN CEREMONIAL OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF WHAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE ONCE AND IF YOU ( TRULY) BELIEVED.
Did you notice Verse 5?
Ephesians 4:4-5. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM,"
Does that mean water baptism and Baptism of the Holyspirit is one of the same? NO!
JOHN SAYS HE BAPTIZED WITH WATER BUT CHRIST WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLYSPIRIT!!
Water baptism is a ceremonial profession of your faith.
And "IF" your profession was real only then you will see spiritual growth through feeding on the word.
No longer tossed to and fro by strange doctrine. Trying to understand scripture through the wisdom of the world, so called "common sense" fleshly minds, God's word will be written on your Fleshly Tables of the heart. Not a heart of stone!! This in the inner Man!! and A New life!
S Spencer The work of the spirit through baptism of the Holyspirit Ephesians 4 - In Reply - 3 years ago
Baptism of the Holyspirit.
Part 2.
Ephesians 4:16-32. FROM WHOM THE WHOLE BODY FITLY JOINED TOGETHER AND COMPACTED BY THAT WHICH EVERY JOINT SUPPLIETH, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, MAKETH INCREASE OF THE BODY UNTO THE EDIFYING OF ITSELF IN LOVE.
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
THAT YE PUT OFF CONCERNING THE FORMER CONVERSATION THE OLD MAN, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
( AND BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND;)
AND THAT YE PUT ON THE NEW MAN, WHICH AFTER GOD IS CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND (TRUE HOLINESS.)
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: (FOR WE ARE MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER.)
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
AND GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, (WHEREBY YE ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.)
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
ALLL THIS WORK IS ACCOMPLISHED "THROUGH" THE SPIRIT BY BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT.
l would like to understands which toungues are meant in acts 10:46?
I try to understand it..But if so be it that these were other languages understandable by other and yet unlearned or can be interpreted, are they the same as angelic tongues? And second are they the ones the apostle paul talks about in corinthians 13 and 14? Thanks
1 Corinthians 13:1: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." I can't speak about the Spirit giving an 'angelic' language to speak. What Paul was referring to in this verse, was to share the message of the superiority of Love over all Gifts of the Spirit. Even if he could speak in both human & angelic language, if love was missing in his life & ministry, then all that 'language' would be as noise; it would be useful, but love was the under girding principle in everything for the believer. And he takes that thought further in verse 2, 'if he had knowledge of everything or even mountain-moving faith' (which he didn't claim to have), if love was missing, then even in these things, he would be as "nothing" in God's Eyes. So, I don't understand that Paul was speaking of a heavenly language as a Gift, but was showing a comparison of the low worth of all Gifts (including Tongues), in comparison to the chief Gift of Love.
Also, in 1 Corinthians 1:14, he said "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;"
You make some very good points. If I may just add my thoughts on water baptism for whatever it is worth. I believe water baptism is important but I also believe that it is to be done after salvation, not as a requirement for salvation.
Jesus said in Acts 1:5, For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
It is interesting that Jesus repeats what the bible says in so many places, is that the Lord's ministry is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John says I baptize with water but the one coming after me baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And that's what He's repeating here in Verse 5.
When a person receives the Holy Spirit they are cleansed. That's why it is called baptized. Baptize means two things. Number one, cleansing, and number two, identification.
In 1 Corinthians 10:1, it says that the Jewish people were baptized into Moses under the cloud and through the sea. That's when the Red Sea was parted and they went through. It doesn't mean they had a baptismal ceremony. It just means that they obeyed Moses when he said let's go. And their identification was with Moses.
Now those two meanings for the word "baptism," is what we celebrate today. The moment that I am saved, I receive His Spirit into my spirit, and I am cleansed. And when I get water baptized, that is a testimony, my identification that I have received Christ and I'm saved. That is called believer's baptism.
Jesus' ministry is to baptize with His Spirit. When we receive Christ, we receive His Spirit. We are born of His Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is salvation. Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:13 says you are baptized with the Spirit when you are brought into the body of Christ, when you're saved.
I would strongly suggest just reading the Bible with an open heart and mind and pray to God for wisdom and understanding. Seek and ye shall find. I think God wants to be sought so we may know Him.
I would also be very cautious of everything man says and would pretty much disregard this. If you just stay in God's Word and keep at it truly seeking Him and following Jesus, I think you're on the right track.
Let me share you a template response that anytime I hear sets off alarms to me. "You don't really don't have to _____" for example "You don't have to do __________ to be saved." Just fill in the blank, it almost doesn't even matter what people say when I hear this blank filled, because it just seems to all fit the same format. If I imagine a serpent whispering it to me and it makes it even more scary. If the Bible says one thing, but man says you don't have to do it, I tend to not believe man. I also question the motives: what is the real underlying reason for not wanting to do this or that?
Is the goal to do the absolute bare minimum as a Christian in attempt to 'get in' to heaven? If so, that person's motives are seriously in question. I don't think God wants your bare minimum effort, but all of you. The greatest commandment is to love God with ALL your heart and ALL your soul. Is someone truly doing that if they're always looking to do only the bare minimum luke-warm effort? Maybe their heart isn't even on following Jesus, but the sin of the world as his idol, but assumes he's a saved Christian because someone told him that once. I think for that person this verse is applicable: Matthew 10:28
God bless....
I agree with you, water baptism is not a requirement for salvation,
And rather go through the scripture as usual to show the definition and it being a symbolic testimony of what Christ crucifixion and resurrection DONE FOR US.
Let's examine the text in Acts 2:38.
Lets see if Peter gave them two things to do or did he give them one thing to do for the remission of sins.
1) Did Peter say unto them, Repent, and " BE " baptized?
Or
2) Did Peter say unto them, Repent and "GET" baptized?
Homely example:
You're sitting at home watching TV. Your son is standing in front of the TV,
( YOU TELL HIM TO SIT DOWN AND GET OUT THE WAY! )
He does " one " thing.
He sat down, when he did he got out the way.
Note: ALL JEWS HERE IN ACTS.
( Acts 2:38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. )
The jews believed in Judaism and believed their salvation rested on it.
Jesus was announced by his forerunner "John the baptist "
Jesus met all the criteria given by the prophecies of the old testament and the Law, He committed the miracles.
The message to the Jews was to
REPENT FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF.
( ACCEPTING THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB )
So when those who repented they "WERE" Baptized.
( They were put into the body of believers, Identified with Christ and the Resurrection "IMMEDIATELY" AND SUPER NATURALLY, BY THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT. ) and THEN we're they baptized with water to profess their faith.
God bless.
You gave a lot of Scripture, But unfortunately you've misinterpreted all of them.
However you're right about one thing, " You're not going to convince me about anything, And I'm not sure that's your intentions.
I'm not going to go through all of these scriptures but I will dig into the first one.
Mark 16:16. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED.
( When and how was he or she baptized in the first half of this verse?)
Answer is: When they believed!! Only the Holyspirit can put you into the body of Christ! Not water.
1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a QUICKENING SPIRIT. ( Life giving spirit.)
Can you get water baptism and NOT BELIEVE AND BE SAVED? No.
Here's the second part of this scripture
"but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Does it say but he that is not baptized shall be damned? No.
Now parallel that with these well known verse by the Lord.
John 3:16-18. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
" THIS PARALLELS WITH WHAT LORD IS SAYING IN MARK 16:16. ( but he that believeth not shall be damned.)
John says himself that he baptized with water BUT he shall baptize you with the Holyspirit.
We will agree to disagree.
God bless.
1. Person A says 'I believe in scripture A'.
2. Person B says 'yah, but what about scripture B?!'
3. Person A says 'yah, but what about scripture A?!'
What is needed is ALL the verses in context: A+B+C+D+E... to all be considered for a full understanding + seeking God through prayer and asking for understanding.
Example:
Does the Bible says believe and you're saved. Yes. Is that ALL it says? No. Do these contradict? No. Genuinely believing assumes action is associated with such a belief- otherwise, it suggests lack of belief.
James 2:18-19 - Even demons believe. Ok, so maybe we should do just the "bare minimum" more than believe, but no more, because then it would be "legalism" (some actually believe this). Satan believed too and was cast out of heaven. Hitler probably believed then later murdered 6 million Jews.
Person A is yah, just FAITH only
Person B is yah, but WORKS too!
Person A is no, just FAITH!
James 2:18 says it's BOTH! A genuine Christian does both, because a genuine Christian will bear fruit and do good works. Good works is GOOD, not bad as some falsely assume. Love your neighbor as yourself is 2nd greatest commandment and showing love is a good work. It also says we need to confess. We can call that scripture C in this case. 1 John 1:9. We'll find more relevant scripture too if we keep reading the Word.
Link
If a person truly believes he will bare fruit.
The Holyspirit will sanctify,
Romans 6:1-4 . What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 8:11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
James 2:20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 7:17-20. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
2 Peter 1:20-21. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Isaiah 28:9-10. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
The Same message is spread throughout the bible. a little here, and a little there.
All scripture should harmonize.
Amen.
It is proper tradition to be baptized, John the Baptist offered it, but what about the people who by no fault of their own didn't get baptized? Surely God would look in their hearts and baptize them with the Holy Ghost. God wants us circumcised inwardly, not of the flesh.
I wonder how many capital criminals behind bars were baptized?
BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT.
An ( INWARD) WORK OF GOD through the Holyspirit Identifying us with the death and resurrection of Christ.
WATER BAPTISM.
An ( OUTWARDLY) testimony expressed by you testifying you believe what's mentioned above is to be true and a work of God.
Here's the work of the baptism of the Holyspirit spirit ( IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE)
You will see the death and resurrection and newness of life in these verses!
Ephesians 4:1-15. I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, "ONE BAPTISM,"
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, AND IN YOU ALL.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ASCENDED up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.)
AND HE GAVE some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST:
Till we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
THAT WE HENCEFORTH BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, AND CARRIED ABOUT WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
BUT SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, MAY GROW UP INTO HIM IN in ALL THINGS, WHICH IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST:
SEE PART 2.
We see the work of the spirit through the baptism of the Holyspirit in Ephesians.
Of people debate if baptism by water is essential for salvation as well as can you loose your salvation. if what's mentioned in Ephesians is not present in your life it's possible you never had salvation.
Everyone dipped in water wasn't internally cleaned, never was the old man crucified and no evidence of the New Man.
Fruitless , Still dead in trespass and sins!!
BECAUSE WATER BAPTISM IS JUST AN CEREMONIAL OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF WHAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE ONCE AND IF YOU ( TRULY) BELIEVED.
Did you notice Verse 5?
Ephesians 4:4-5. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM,"
Does that mean water baptism and means the same? NO!
JOHN SAYS HE BAPTIZED WITH WATER BUT CHRIST WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLYSPIRIT!!
Water baptism is a ceremonial profession of your faith.
And "IF" your profession was real only then you will see spiritual growth through feeding on the word.
No longer tossed to and fro by strange doctrine. Trying to understand scripture through the wisdom of the world, so called "common sense" fleshly minds, God's word will be written on your Fleshly Tables of the heart. Not a heart of stone!! This in the inner Man!! and A New life!
Not to perfection but A true heart pursuing it.
And God Judge the heart.
GOD BLESS.
Part 3. with corrections.
We see the work of the spirit through the baptism of the Holyspirit in Ephesians.
Often people debate if baptism by water is essential for salvation as well as can you loose your salvation. if what's mentioned in Ephesians is not present in your life it's possible you never had salvation.
Everyone dipped in water wasn't internally cleaned, never was the old man crucified and no evidence of the New Man.
Fruitless , Still dead in trespass and sins!!
BECAUSE WATER BAPTISM IS JUST AN CEREMONIAL OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF WHAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE ONCE AND IF YOU ( TRULY) BELIEVED.
Did you notice Verse 5?
Ephesians 4:4-5. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5) "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM,"
Does that mean water baptism and Baptism of the Holyspirit is one of the same? NO!
JOHN SAYS HE BAPTIZED WITH WATER BUT CHRIST WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLYSPIRIT!!
Water baptism is a ceremonial profession of your faith.
And "IF" your profession was real only then you will see spiritual growth through feeding on the word.
No longer tossed to and fro by strange doctrine. Trying to understand scripture through the wisdom of the world, so called "common sense" fleshly minds, God's word will be written on your Fleshly Tables of the heart. Not a heart of stone!! This in the inner Man!! and A New life!
Not to perfection but A true heart pursuing it.
And God Judge the heart.
GOD BLESS.
and praise God for such a baptism of the Spirit. I am learning to discern between the flesh and the spirit, and
between pure faith and a religious spirit. I keep learning, thank you and bless you.
God bless
Part 2.
Ephesians 4:16-32. FROM WHOM THE WHOLE BODY FITLY JOINED TOGETHER AND COMPACTED BY THAT WHICH EVERY JOINT SUPPLIETH, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, MAKETH INCREASE OF THE BODY UNTO THE EDIFYING OF ITSELF IN LOVE.
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
THAT YE PUT OFF CONCERNING THE FORMER CONVERSATION THE OLD MAN, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
( AND BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND;)
AND THAT YE PUT ON THE NEW MAN, WHICH AFTER GOD IS CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND (TRUE HOLINESS.)
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: (FOR WE ARE MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER.)
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
AND GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, (WHEREBY YE ARE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.)
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
ALLL THIS WORK IS ACCOMPLISHED "THROUGH" THE SPIRIT BY BAPTISM OF THE HOLYSPIRIT.
SEE PART 3
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?