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Its a 24 hr. day, its also verified twice more in exodus, be careful, the evolutionists will take scripture out of context to make you believe the earth is billions of years old, when God said a day is as a thousand days to Him he was simply saying that he (God) is outside of time, its not 2021 in Heaven!
Just because someone believes the universe is billions of years old, does not mean that they believe in Darwinian evolution and common descent. This is an absolutely incorrect assumption!
I believe the the earth is billions of years old and I believe that God created all that it states in Genesis 1 in six days. Its just that you believe that these were 6 consecutive days and I, and many other Bible-believing Christians believe they were not necessarily consecutive 24 hour days.
There were Christians that used to believe that the earth was the center of the universe, firmly planted on a firm foundation and that the sun, moon, planets and stars rotated around the earth based on Scripture: "for the PILLARS OF THE EARTH are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them." 1Sa 2:8=John Lennox, Seven Days that Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science.
It wasn't easy for Christians to accept the idea that the Earth orbits the sun, but ultimately they did so under the pressure of irrefutable scientific observations. Lennox asks,
"Why do Christians accept this "new" interpretation, and not still insist on a "literal" understanding of the "pillars of the earth"? Why are we not still split up into fixed-earthers and moving-earthers? Is it really because we have all compromised, and made Scripture subservient to science?"
So please, do not lump a lot of Christians in with evolutionists, simply because we believe irrefutable scientific observations AND God's Word that indicated an old universe and old earth.
Yes, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
God created the universe by The Word of His mouth out of nothing. That divine event could could be what scientists refer to as The Big Bang. They just don't believe in The Big Banger: God. The Big Band is a real problem for naturalists. They haven't figured out how time, space and matter came out of NOTHING! That all happened before the six, "And God said..." that began each day's creation events.
The likelihood is that you won't convince me and I won't convince you. But we both believe that God created, especially humans, in whom He breathed life. I am not a Darwinian evolutionist who believe that all life came from a common source and evolved over billions of years. The fossil record supports creation events. DNA supports an Intelligent Agent not blind natural selection.
I've heard Hovine, Jason Lisle and others. Convincing but not entirely convinced. The young earth advocates have for decades mistakenly assumed that old earth advocates must be Darwinian evolutionists. First of all, everyone believes in evolution, if you mean "change over time." Every one of us evolve over the years. So you really need to define what kind of evolution you're referring to. That's why I'm referring to Darwinian evolution, common descent of all life from a single cell over billions or years. That's a fairy tale, a just so story.
At the creation event came into being time, space, material by a Timeless, Spaceless Immaterial, Personal, Powerful Agent, God. God commanded man to "fill the earth and subdue it." Part of subduing the earth involves observation. Christian scientists hundreds of years ago began doing that in a systematic way and the along came an Einstein who discovered the relationship between space time and matter. Interesting to me.
Again, if you watch the video I suggested you will probably learn more in an hour than you have in 30 yrs about many things, I did. This guy is a independent Baptist evangelist, you will love it!
I watched a discussion (2:35:43, I have no time for 10+ hours of Hovind) between Kent Hovind and Hugh Ross a Christian astrophysicist, old earth, day-age advocate hosted by John Ankerberg.
This way you can hear an opinion and a counter argument side by side, if you're interested.
One of the topics they discussed had to do with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics with respect to death before The Fall or not.
Nothing there to change my mind. Having been a staunch YEC for decades, I have, fairly recently (within the past 30 years, for a 79 year old), adopted OEC. I can debate this with a YEC, but I'd rather discuss topics that are more substantive.
I just wanted to point out that OEC does not automatically equate to evolutionist.
Let's not talk past each other. Chances are that neither of us will change our minds. In my humble opinion, this is a SECONDARY ISSUE, like between disagreements between Calvinists & Arminians or pre & post millennialist or baptism by immersion & baptism by sprinkling.
There are Christians who are old earth creationists (OEC) who are NOT evolutionary creationists. I believe "And God said..." and He caused that thing to happen, not the slow evolution of all life from one organism by random selection and mutation.
Frankly, both sides, YEC & OEC, have their strengths and weaknesses. I was a YEC for a long time, decades. I've read a lot and listened to both sides. OEC makes the most sense to my reading of Scripture and scientific observation.
Psalm 19 declared both the "book" of nature revelation and The Book of supernatural revelation. A correct interpretation of BOTH is essential. I know that's what we all try to do. We have trouble with both in some cases. The MAIN things are the PLAIN things: who God is, who we are, how things got broke, God's plan to fix it, what we need to do. The NON-MAIN things: well we need to be charitable and allow for liberty among Christians. Doesn't mean we can't argue our points. But please, do not mischaracterized another's point of view. As an OEC, I am not an evolutionist in any sense that supports macro evolution, common descent by random selection and mutation!
I think that if we could sit down and look each other in the eye and talk, we would have MORE important, significant things in common than not. And we could discuss those secondary areas where we disagree with civilly and with an open mind. I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit it.
(Unfortunately, there are preachers who cram too many secondary things into the MAIN things, in my opinion.)
First of all I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to talk about it without getting upset, most Christians can't seem to do that these days, and yes, I don't want to cause hard feelings as it don't really matter as to weather were going to heaven or not, but this is what I want to say, In Genesis between verse's 1 & 2 Or 2 & 3, 1 &2 both end with the word "AND" , if I go the the restaurant and order bacon & eggs, I don't mean bring me the bacon now and a year later bring the eggs! My question to you would be simply, where is the scripture that shows anything other than the possibility of a 6 literal day creation & what negates the word "beginning"? Here's another thought, I feel like many old earthers get confused a little between 6000 years & 6000$, 6000 dollars ain't much these days but 6000 yrs!!!is a long long time, think of how far we have come as a people in just the last 120 yrs! We have went from horseback to jet airplanes, from almost 0 technology to almost infinite, from bow & arrow to nuclear weapons, if we can go that far in the last 120 yrs, why is it so hard to believe that this earth was created when God said it was a little over 6000 years ago? My friend, you seem to be well versed in scripture & obviously a Christian, however when you have been fed the dinosaur's could not have been made with man for 40 or 50 yrs. its hard to break that thought process, to me its very simple, if God said it, its true, period!
Then you do not believe what God proclaims Skip, watch Kent Hovind's creation series #1 (there are 7, all outstanding!) If you have not watched this guy your missing some great stuff. On youtube. The Bible says "IN THE BEGINNING", period. I promise im not trying to be ugly but the fact is we(pretty much all of us) have been brainwashed since kindergarten because of dinosaurs (Kents #3 video) and cavemen and not being able to rationalize the time frame because the first book they handed us in school was something like "learn about dinosaurs" - that lived 450 billion years ago! Dinosaurs are all in the Bible, but the word dinosaur was not created till the 1800's, the word used in the Bible is dragon, leviathan etc. Job is a good example
Scientists base their data, like carbon dating, they set the point of calculation on the oldest thing they could verify the date of the object. Sunlight causes the formation of C-14 in the atmosphere, and radioactive decay takes it out, so the accuracy can be 1000's of years off. Nothing on this earth has been dated for millions of years. Also, they measure the amount of time it takes the light to travel from a star to get to the earth to date millions or billions of years. On day 4 when God placed the great lights the Sun and the moon and the stars it was instantaneous in 1 day.
Scientists also say the earth was one landmass called Pangaea and over the earth's history of billions of years the mass divided due to the tectonic plates called continental drift. You may not agree but I believe this was done in the days of Peleg. In the Hebrew language, the name "Peleg" means dividing by a "small channel of water" and is also root associated with the meaning of an earthquake. With God, all is possible so I take this verse as literal.
Genesis 10:25 (KJV)
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
Richard, you are right, in Job 41 many commentators say it is a crocodile. If one would read Job 41 you will see this creature is not any creature that's here today. I also agree with you that things we have been taught have created blind spots (scotoma) and unless we clear our minds before we study we will not hear or see the truth, the preconceived ideas in our mind will block what we are reading. As Jesus said, "because they seeing see not" "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". The number of days and evening and morning throughout the Bible means 24 hours. No part of evolution can be interpreted from scriptures.
Hey, Skip this is Ron I am new to this site, I love the peaceful conversations that are on this site that you don't find on many others but sometimes it is hard to know who is talking to who. When you click on view thread some post does not go with the conversations in the thread. If your reply was to me, I don't quite understand your post, I don't believe I made any remarks of OEC or did I say you were a Darwinian evolutionist. I thought this post started with 24 hour days or 1000 year days so I don't feel I changed the subject. Many fill the earth is older than the time calculated from Adam, but few explain why they believe that. I would like to hear the reason which would be a good conversation. Thanks, Ron
Amen brother, you are right on, for 30 years I believed in a pre trib. rapture because that's what the preacher told me and since my eyes have been opened it could not be clearer that the rapture will be a post trib. rapture, ( Matt. 24:29, Mark 13:24 and Mark 5 thru 23 says you ,ye,& your, over and over(describing what "WE" will be going through, and he is talking to who, Christians, he's not talking to the world, he is talking to his disciples, referencing them , Christians as a whole, and yes, its hard to get past a belief that you was taught especially when you believe the person teaching you is a true man of God so I had to come to this conclusion, if God says it, IT'S TRUE period, I don't care if everybody on the planet disagrees with me, have a great day brother!
Just because someone believes the universe is billions of years old, does not mean that they believe in Darwinian evolution and common descent. This is an absolutely incorrect assumption!
I believe the the earth is billions of years old and I believe that God created all that it states in Genesis 1 in six days. Its just that you believe that these were 6 consecutive days and I, and many other Bible-believing Christians believe they were not necessarily consecutive 24 hour days.
There were Christians that used to believe that the earth was the center of the universe, firmly planted on a firm foundation and that the sun, moon, planets and stars rotated around the earth based on Scripture: "for the PILLARS OF THE EARTH are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them." 1Sa 2:8=John Lennox, Seven Days that Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science.
It wasn't easy for Christians to accept the idea that the Earth orbits the sun, but ultimately they did so under the pressure of irrefutable scientific observations. Lennox asks,
"Why do Christians accept this "new" interpretation, and not still insist on a "literal" understanding of the "pillars of the earth"? Why are we not still split up into fixed-earthers and moving-earthers? Is it really because we have all compromised, and made Scripture subservient to science?"
So please, do not lump a lot of Christians in with evolutionists, simply because we believe irrefutable scientific observations AND God's Word that indicated an old universe and old earth.
God created the universe by The Word of His mouth out of nothing. That divine event could could be what scientists refer to as The Big Bang. They just don't believe in The Big Banger: God. The Big Band is a real problem for naturalists. They haven't figured out how time, space and matter came out of NOTHING! That all happened before the six, "And God said..." that began each day's creation events.
The likelihood is that you won't convince me and I won't convince you. But we both believe that God created, especially humans, in whom He breathed life. I am not a Darwinian evolutionist who believe that all life came from a common source and evolved over billions of years. The fossil record supports creation events. DNA supports an Intelligent Agent not blind natural selection.
I've heard Hovine, Jason Lisle and others. Convincing but not entirely convinced. The young earth advocates have for decades mistakenly assumed that old earth advocates must be Darwinian evolutionists. First of all, everyone believes in evolution, if you mean "change over time." Every one of us evolve over the years. So you really need to define what kind of evolution you're referring to. That's why I'm referring to Darwinian evolution, common descent of all life from a single cell over billions or years. That's a fairy tale, a just so story.
At the creation event came into being time, space, material by a Timeless, Spaceless Immaterial, Personal, Powerful Agent, God. God commanded man to "fill the earth and subdue it." Part of subduing the earth involves observation. Christian scientists hundreds of years ago began doing that in a systematic way and the along came an Einstein who discovered the relationship between space time and matter. Interesting to me.
This way you can hear an opinion and a counter argument side by side, if you're interested.
One of the topics they discussed had to do with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics with respect to death before The Fall or not.
Nothing there to change my mind. Having been a staunch YEC for decades, I have, fairly recently (within the past 30 years, for a 79 year old), adopted OEC. I can debate this with a YEC, but I'd rather discuss topics that are more substantive.
I just wanted to point out that OEC does not automatically equate to evolutionist.
There are Christians who are old earth creationists (OEC) who are NOT evolutionary creationists. I believe "And God said..." and He caused that thing to happen, not the slow evolution of all life from one organism by random selection and mutation.
Frankly, both sides, YEC & OEC, have their strengths and weaknesses. I was a YEC for a long time, decades. I've read a lot and listened to both sides. OEC makes the most sense to my reading of Scripture and scientific observation.
Psalm 19 declared both the "book" of nature revelation and The Book of supernatural revelation. A correct interpretation of BOTH is essential. I know that's what we all try to do. We have trouble with both in some cases. The MAIN things are the PLAIN things: who God is, who we are, how things got broke, God's plan to fix it, what we need to do. The NON-MAIN things: well we need to be charitable and allow for liberty among Christians. Doesn't mean we can't argue our points. But please, do not mischaracterized another's point of view. As an OEC, I am not an evolutionist in any sense that supports macro evolution, common descent by random selection and mutation!
I think that if we could sit down and look each other in the eye and talk, we would have MORE important, significant things in common than not. And we could discuss those secondary areas where we disagree with civilly and with an open mind. I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit it.
(Unfortunately, there are preachers who cram too many secondary things into the MAIN things, in my opinion.)
Scientists base their data, like carbon dating, they set the point of calculation on the oldest thing they could verify the date of the object. Sunlight causes the formation of C-14 in the atmosphere, and radioactive decay takes it out, so the accuracy can be 1000's of years off. Nothing on this earth has been dated for millions of years. Also, they measure the amount of time it takes the light to travel from a star to get to the earth to date millions or billions of years. On day 4 when God placed the great lights the Sun and the moon and the stars it was instantaneous in 1 day.
Scientists also say the earth was one landmass called Pangaea and over the earth's history of billions of years the mass divided due to the tectonic plates called continental drift. You may not agree but I believe this was done in the days of Peleg. In the Hebrew language, the name "Peleg" means dividing by a "small channel of water" and is also root associated with the meaning of an earthquake. With God, all is possible so I take this verse as literal.
Genesis 10:25 (KJV)
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
Richard, you are right, in Job 41 many commentators say it is a crocodile. If one would read Job 41 you will see this creature is not any creature that's here today. I also agree with you that things we have been taught have created blind spots (scotoma) and unless we clear our minds before we study we will not hear or see the truth, the preconceived ideas in our mind will block what we are reading. As Jesus said, "because they seeing see not" "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". The number of days and evening and morning throughout the Bible means 24 hours. No part of evolution can be interpreted from scriptures.
As an old earther,
I AM NOT A DARWINIAN EVOLUTIONIST.
It does not necessarily follow.
That is the ONLY thing I've been attempting to say, so please don't change the subject.
I believe it's 24 hr period as we know a day to be.
Genesis 1:5 (KJV) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
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