Where in the Bible does it once you are saved you are always saved? Also I know some people who say if you repent of your sins you are trying to be saved by works, is this true ? If so where in the Bible does it say this.?
It appears you're receiving mostly responses that de-emphasize obedience. I do not believe once saved always saved, because of Matthew 12:22-32 and so many other verses. I think if that was true Jesus would not have continually warned his followers (Christians) over and over through parables and stories about obedience and keeping His commandments and avoiding sin. It takes effort. It literally addresses this already in the Bible- saying that people used it as a license to sin and "abuse" grace: Jude 1:4, Hebrews 10:26, James 2:14-26, John 14:15, James 2:19. I fully believe all the verses others shared with you above, but unfortunately it appears most are sharing an imbalanced perspective. The Word speaks for itself and does not say once saved, always saved. Christians can and do turn from the faith, unfortunately, and sometimes a % go in the complete opposite direction and do horrific things, just like any other person can who does evil and follows the world or satan. I'm responding, because I think it's important that you not listen to men, but to the Word and pray and ask God for wisdom that you will know the truth. There are many false prophets and fake news being spread and we know who is behind that. God bless...
I would suggest reading the whole chapter, also Hebrew chapter 11, but these are just a couple, throughout the NT. I hope this helps
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
I also would like to share this with you and anyone else in this thread about the cost of a Jewish person denouncing Judaism and receiving Christ. A pastor had shared a true story with me about a Jewish man who left Judaism and received Jesus Christ.
This man lived in NY City. When he gave up on Judaism to follow Christ, his family denounced him. They even held a funeral for him even though he was still alive because they considered him dead.
And then one day as this man was walking down the street in NY City, he saw his father approaching from the opposite direction. The man waved and called out to him and said "Hey, dad." The dad just stared at him with a blank look. The man said, "Dad, it's me, your son." And he replied back and said, "You can't be my son, my son is dead!"
That's how serious it is for a Jew to surrender their life to Jesus Christ.
You will not find the phrase "Once saved, always saved" in the bible. But that does not mean that salvation is not permanent. There are a couple of verses in Hebrews that seem to indicate that salvation can be lost, but if you understand who the book was written to and what was taking place at that time, you can better understand that it's not talking about saved individuals losing their salvation.
I would encourage you to do some research on what it would cost a Hebrew/Jewish person to denounce Judaism and surrender their life to Christ. It would cost them everything. They would be disowned by their own family, they would be kicked out of their temple, society would not accept them, and they wouldn't be allowed to get a job. It's still the same today.
Hebrews 6:4 seems to indicate that a person can lose their salvation, but that's not the case. It's not talking about saved believers losing their salvation. It's talking about Jews who were part of the crowd that were following along with the teachings and being enlightened to the truth, but never taking that next step in surrendering to Christ. An enlightened person does not mean they are saved. We have many people in our churches today that are being enlightened to the truth, but still haven't surrendered their lives to Christ. They are in church every week but they are not saved. And many of them do eventually walk away. They are not losing their salvation because they never were saved.
You see, there were many Hebrew people following along with the teaching. They were being "enlightened" to the truth. The problem is they never surrendered their life to Christ because of what it would cost them.
I believe in the permanency of salvation because I know that salvation is a work of God, not man. It is God who saves us, and it is God who keeps us saved. If we say we have eternal life, but also believe it can be lost, is it really eternal?
Salvation is eternal unto life at the foot of the cross and we must know that place by our original repentance experience yet not laying aside the grace that God had for us as he turned our minds toward Him as he led us to His place of repentance, our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Hope all is well your way, good this way. Keep the faith!
Yes brother, salvation is eternal, amen! And I agree that it is God the Father that led us to Christ as Jesus says in John 6:44 that No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus has promised that He will raise us up at the last day. Jesus said in John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day."
It is God the Father who draws us to Christ. It is God the Father who gives us to Christ. And Christ said of all that is given to Him, He will not lose one. That seems permanent to me.
Now the word "draw" isn't the drawing that I depict when I put my hand out to draw. This is the word drag in the Greek text. It's the same word used of Lot when the angels, and if you remember when he was leaving town, didn't want to go, and he hesitated?
It was the faithfulness of God that took him by the hand and dragged him out of the city. That is the faithfulness of God. Even in our hesitations, he'll drag us. So the saying is true, "Christianity is a drag!"
I am doing well, thank you. I am also happy to hear all is well with you. The Lord is good!
Brother Jesse for me the key word in what I wrote is "repentance". This is using the phrase perhaps out of context but I believe that God draws us from grace to grace. Grace to have faith and confess Him and grace to repent in Him. God leads us by grace to repentance at the cross. At the cross we are eternally saved and no place else. I have Adam's flesh to contend with and my own free will by my mind to choose to believe and follow this grace. For me that place at the cross where the burden of sin was lifted away is a peaceful and restful place. Jesus is there with us because we are now in Him, made clean. When the burdens or drags as you mentioned in life weigh us down we do not need to fight that fight in our mind but return to Calvary as our eternal assurance that Jesus reigns in us. I believe (by experience) that sometimes though these burdens are severe (perhaps against God's leading I chose my own way) enough that the return to Calvary (where all is well) is not clear and repentance may be needed to see the way home again. My testimony is I know this place of eternal rest and peace even in the tribulations of this earth, but I know myself also that I can be deceived; that is why God by his Love, drew me by grace to see His grace which we believe to be his Mercy, which I believe is the way to repentance and eternal salvation which is eternal life.
It is always nice to try to communicate our hearts in His love.
Thank you so much for the clarification. I'm sorry I didn't pick up that you were keying in on repentance. I think I'm following you now. I can be a dummy sometimes so please bear with me!
As I'm reading through your post, there is so much of the Greek coming to my mind and I'm trying not to jumble things up. I do understand God's grace (CHARIS). As far as faith goes, there are two types of faith, human faith, and the faith the Bible speaks about. We all have human faith, but not everyone has the faith that the bible speaks about. That faith only comes from God's Spirit. He is the source. In fact, the Greek word for faith in the bible means persuasion. It's when God's Spirit persuades us to do something.
And that's what makes sense when you say "Grace to have faith and confess Him and grace to repent in Him, and that God leads us by grace to repentance at the cross." That word faith literally means persuasion. God persuades us and shows us our need for repentance.
I agree that we are eternally saved at the cross. That's why the bible says we were crucified with Christ. You are at a place where you have found peace at the foot of the cross. Jesus Christ bore all of our sins at the cross, and in Him, all who have received Him are at peace.
I fully understand what you are saying about the flesh thing. The flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. Here's something I would like to share with you about the flesh. In my daily life, I find that most of my struggle is not with Satan. Most of my struggle is with Christ because my flesh is continuously trying to get down off that cross.
But praise God that he is a God of grace and mercy. And He has His ways of dealing with me when I decide to go in a different direction from where He is leading me. And as you know, sometimes it can be harsh. That's how we know we belong to Him. It's when He disciplines us or chastises us when we get out of line!
These are some of the verses some people use to defer them from good works.
Ephesians 2:8-9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Then just reading the next verse shows we are the Lords workmanship to good works and we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Thanks for sharing Ephesians 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, literally upon the basis of good works, which God has before ordained, or planned, that we should walk in them. As believers, our new position is in Christ and we are the result of His workmanship. And we're walking in the life that He created for us before we were even saved.
Indeed it is Earl, and we have entered into His rest as we see in Hebrews 4:10, "For he that is entered into His rest, has also ceased from his own works, just as God did from His.
So the writer of Hebrews is going back to creation. He's saying if you surrender to Christ, you will be doing just what God did. You will cease from your own works, your own efforts, at your own salvation. You will cease from your own works, and you will enter into God's rest.
I am glad to hear you liked that verse I posted. I agree with how you explain about "salvation" being lost is really more for them that you may ask "were they ever really saved"? Jesus Christ knows His sheep and is known of them when it is revealed. When it is time for our Father to draw us to Him.
As the Hebrews had a lot to lose to follow the Lord and give their lives to Him. As I'm sure there are many people today in which their lives in this world may be more important that giving their lives to the Lord. It seems almost to parallel directly to the parable our Lord told us in Matthew 13:18-23. Being they who received seed in stony places or thorns. As us who are saved, and sealed, unto salvation are as they who received seed in good ground and bear good fruit for our Father in Heaven.
I do see the parallel in the Parable of the Sower. I love that parable and how the soil represents the heart. The seed that falls into stony places, the Greek text seems to indicate that this is not rocks mixed in with dirt, but an actual cement slab. There's just enough dirt on top of the slab to catch the seed, but not enough for the seed to take root. I notice that out of the four types of soil (Heart conditions) that this seed falls on, only one out of the four describes salvation, and that is the seed that falls on good ground, as you mentioned. That is the only one out of the four that bears fruit. Only a saved person bears fruit.
And yes, we are His sheep and He knows us (Present Tense). A saved believer, when they stand before the Lord at their appointed time, they will never hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you."
I have to admit, I thought I might have received a more negative response because I was a little unsure where you stood on the permanency of salvation. I do enjoy reading your posts and I think we are in agreement with each other on a lot of things.
Ephesians 4:21-32. If so be that ye have heard Him, and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Good day brother Richard, currently working here with the hands and by the sweat of the brow (it was easier when I was your age) but still it is good. Keep the faith!
Hello Sherry, I am sure there will be some scriptures coming forward from brethren today with your questions. Brother Chris and I had a discussion kind of related to your question when I gave an experience on a death sin and my restoration. Currently our discussion would be found on page four and finishing towards the end of page three. I hope you find the answers that you are wanting.
No where in the Bible does it say "once saved always saved". It does say those who have been "partakers" of the gift of the Holy Ghost "if they shall fall away". Hebrews 6:4-6. In numerous places it speaks of those who have heard the truth, of our Lord Jesus Christ, or "escaped the pollutions of the world" and then are entangled again. 2 Peter 2:20-22. Is as the Proverb 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Repenting of the sins of this world is one of the most important messages throughout the entire Holy Bible. 1 Peter 1:14-16. The devil is the only one who wants people to keep sinning in their worldly lifestyles. Which keeps you separated from God. We are to do our best to follow in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die so we could live a life of willful sin and not care. That is what the devil wants people to think so they keep on sinning. This is not a joke or a free pass to sin. God hates sin. Though he loves the sinner and wants them to repent and turn to the Lord.
There is nothing wrong with good works. That is what makes God happy. Love. What is in your heart? It is not good works that save us. The grace, mercy, and love of God saved us as He sent us His Son. To live a perfect life for us. Good works, and repenting from sin and iniquity, is what shows our faith in the Lord that we are walking in newness of life and are His children. To live by His Will.
Don't let anyone tell you repenting and good works are taking something away from Jesus Christ. We must follow our Lord, with a pure heart, till the end.
Sherry, these verses and many more confirm that salvation, once given, is eternal.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Do not get standing and relationship confused. Once a person is truly saved, they are made a child of God. This is your standing and you cannot lose it. However, if a person continues in their sin, they can lose their relationship with God. Just like a rebellious child damages their relationship with their parents.
As for repentance, this is only a recognition of a persons sins and a persons decision to turn away from it. God honors that decision even if we are unable to. Salvation is totally the work of God. He draws us to Jesus who paid the price and if we accept the price, we become His, "is passed from death unto life."
The verses you read refer to genuine Christians who are following (and obeying) Christ.
If you put those verses in context with all the other verses like John 14:15, then you realize obeying is pretty important. Christianity is about following Christ, not a get out of hell free card or an unlimited license to sin. It assumes someone is a genuine Christian who avoids sin and obeys God. Obedience doesn't mean there's no grace either. We're still saved by grace, but we're genuinely trying to avoid sin. Whereas someone deliberately sinning and claiming they're saved and can do whatever they want is in danger. Many will cry out, Lord, Lord, and Jesus will not know them, which includes faux Christians.
Luke 12:10 this verse alone debunks the once saved always saved belief, because it clearly says this sin will not be forgiven. Also, no one is 'saved' until they are judged after this life. Those who genuinely follow Jesus can have assurance in salvation, but the Word also says to fear God. Luke 12:4.
I have a feeling these verses won't change anyone's mind once you've made up your mind what you want to believe, but perhaps at least pray about it before suggesting to others that they're saved even if they commit horrific sins and live in the Word and turn their back on Jesus to follow the devil as some Christians sometimes do. Hitler grew up attending church and if you believe OSAS maybe some think Hitler and everyone will be in heaven too along with all other mass murderers. But I don't believe that, I believe satan is trying to convince people they don't need to obey God anymore. God bless.
Please do not take offense to my reply, I only want to clarify my answers for others. I have heard arguments such as yours many times. However, they fail to stand when all scripture is considered.
You are correct stating "genuine Christian" "trying to avoid sin" and a person is "claiming they're saved and can do whatever they want."
You have just described two different persons you will find in Christianity. One has repented, ask for forgiveness, and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ to save them. The other only claims to have done this. One has been saved by the work of Christ and is given eternal life, the other has not.
As for judgments after death, the unbeliever is already judged and condemned, Joh 3:18. The judgments after death are the Judgement Seat of Christ to judge the believers service with lose of rewards not salvation, Rom 14:10, 2Co 5:10, 1Cor 3:12-15. The second is the Great White Throne Judgment for those that rejected God's truth with punishment in the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15.
Do not misunderstand me, there are consequences to sin, even for the saved. Rev. 3:19
However, chastening is not the loss of salvation.
Where I see an error is in your misunderstanding of Luke 12:10. To blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is to reject His ministry. What is His ministry?
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
If an unsaved person continually rejects the Holy Spirits efforts to convince them of their sins and need of salvation through Jesus Christ, then they will not be forgiven. A person that is "truly" saved cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit as they have accepted His witness and is then indwelled by Him. Rom. 8:9, 14, 1Cor. 6:11, 2Cor. 1:22, Eph. 4:30
As for obedience (works) see the following: Eph. 2:9, Mat. 11:30, Joh. 8:36.
If I may add a little more to the truth you have shared, I believe there are only two types of people in this world, saved and unsaved. A person is either a slave to Jesus Christ or a slave to sin, no in-between. I believe that salvation is a present-tense condition of everyone who has been born of God's Spirit. A true believer who is being led by God's Spirit would never think it is okay to commit sin or to live a sinful lifestyle.
There are many who claim to be Christians but have never been born of the Spirit of Christ. They may go to church religiously and participate with the believers and give the appearance of being a believer, but still be void of God's Spirit dwelling within. Those are the ones who eventually walk away. To the others in the church who assumed that person was saved, they will say "See, he walked away and denounced the whole thing, so he lost his salvation.
This was the same with Judas Iscariot. He was part of the twelve but he was evil from the start. Judas was never saved and then lost his salvation. Jesus chose an evil man to fulfil the scripture saying that He would be betrayed. When Jesus said have not I chosen you all, and one of you is a devil, none of the other 11 knew that it was Judas. But Jesus knew, and that is why He chose Judas.
I shared earlier about the people in the book of Hebrews who were being "enlighted" to the truth, but later on turned and walked away. Those were Hebrew/Jewish people. They were never saved, but people want to use verses in Hebrews to show that salvation can be lost. I know of a couple of verses in Hebrews that are being used to show that salvation can be lost, Hebrews 6:4 and Hebrews 10:26, and also one in Peter's writings, but none of them is talking about saved people losing their salvation.
The bible speaks about those who profess to be Christian and later on walk away from it all. That's given to us in ( 1 John 2:19). They walk away because they were never saved to begin with!
Naturally, I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture and the assumptions made.
I believe the argument of once saved always saved contradicts itself. Here's how:
1. Someone believes God gave them freewill.
2. Someone believes all Christians are already 'saved' and that status never changes.
3. Then they are asked about Luke 12:10 blasphemy of the holy ghost.
4. They then claim it doesn't apply to Christians, that Christians can't, that they don't even have the freewill to sin, despite many documented cases of Christians doing exactly that both in the Bible and in the world today. Isaiah 14:12-14 shows that even angels in heaven have freewill to sin and blaspheme.
Christians still need to face judgment day like everyone else. Only after can someone be actually saved. If we genuinely follow Christ we can be assured of salvation, but the Bible warns us plenty of times to obey, to run the race, to persevere, to abide in the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:8-9, it paints a much different picture than that I get from others who claim its ok to sin, that you can't sin, that you can be in the world and do whatever you want with zero penalty, and don't even have to worry about turning your back on Christ or blaspheming, because you can't do that. That's the opposite message of what Jesus said. Hebrews 6:4, John 14:15, Matthew 5:13, MATTHEW 7:23.
If once saved always saved is true, does that mean Christians can commit mass murder and still go to heaven? violence? rape? blasphemy? Or that their freewill is restricted so it's impossible for that to happen? Judas betrayed Jesus, and many Christians leave the faith and reject Jesus, unfortunately. There's a forum on Reddit called ex-Christian if you don't believe it. So, are all ex-Christians who reject Jesus still saved then?
Which is more likely: that satan, the father of lies is deceiving Christians into obeying God more than necessary, or that committing unlimited sin is ok?
As I'd just like to reply to your post and just to bring peace. Like I stated how I agree with Jesse on his view I also agree with you on this. As you give solid reasons in you posts. How even angels have been known to have sinned and turn from God.
Me giving the answer of "yes and no" to this question of OSAS I'm sure would not hold up well to most. Though as I stated that God knows who shall endure until the end as in Matthew 24:13 being they that shall be saved. The Lord knowing His sheep. Though we as men should not take this situation lightly at all. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow. As we have been bought with a price and we are His children 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. To live by His Will not our own and to follow our Lord Jesus Christ with zeal.
Taking this in the way of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:18-23, seems to be accurate. In that those who fall away may have not even been truly saved in the first place. Though only God can really answer that truthfully.
We must strive to not lose our savor as our Lord told us. To run the race till the end keeping the faith.
Again I also side with you in that this is no small matter to take lightly as some may today. Just reading through the first three chapters of Revelation and seeing how Jesus Christ spake unto the churches. Having good things to say and bad things to get them to repent of and focus on Him. Sometimes I say to some people "Would you want the Lord to be happy with you or disappointed in you"?
We have been Blessed with free will. This is what makes people who endure till the end even more special. With a pure heart. To one day be glorified and be with our Lord where He is. Amen.
It appears you're receiving mostly responses that de-emphasize obedience. I do not believe once saved always saved, because of Matthew 12:22-32 and so many other verses. I think if that was true Jesus would not have continually warned his followers (Christians) over and over through parables and stories about obedience and keeping His commandments and avoiding sin. It takes effort. It literally addresses this already in the Bible- saying that people used it as a license to sin and "abuse" grace: Jude 1:4, Hebrews 10:26, James 2:14-26, John 14:15, James 2:19. I fully believe all the verses others shared with you above, but unfortunately it appears most are sharing an imbalanced perspective. The Word speaks for itself and does not say once saved, always saved. Christians can and do turn from the faith, unfortunately, and sometimes a % go in the complete opposite direction and do horrific things, just like any other person can who does evil and follows the world or satan. I'm responding, because I think it's important that you not listen to men, but to the Word and pray and ask God for wisdom that you will know the truth. There are many false prophets and fake news being spread and we know who is behind that. God bless...
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
I also would like to share this with you and anyone else in this thread about the cost of a Jewish person denouncing Judaism and receiving Christ. A pastor had shared a true story with me about a Jewish man who left Judaism and received Jesus Christ.
This man lived in NY City. When he gave up on Judaism to follow Christ, his family denounced him. They even held a funeral for him even though he was still alive because they considered him dead.
And then one day as this man was walking down the street in NY City, he saw his father approaching from the opposite direction. The man waved and called out to him and said "Hey, dad." The dad just stared at him with a blank look. The man said, "Dad, it's me, your son." And he replied back and said, "You can't be my son, my son is dead!"
That's how serious it is for a Jew to surrender their life to Jesus Christ.
You will not find the phrase "Once saved, always saved" in the bible. But that does not mean that salvation is not permanent. There are a couple of verses in Hebrews that seem to indicate that salvation can be lost, but if you understand who the book was written to and what was taking place at that time, you can better understand that it's not talking about saved individuals losing their salvation.
I would encourage you to do some research on what it would cost a Hebrew/Jewish person to denounce Judaism and surrender their life to Christ. It would cost them everything. They would be disowned by their own family, they would be kicked out of their temple, society would not accept them, and they wouldn't be allowed to get a job. It's still the same today.
Hebrews 6:4 seems to indicate that a person can lose their salvation, but that's not the case. It's not talking about saved believers losing their salvation. It's talking about Jews who were part of the crowd that were following along with the teachings and being enlightened to the truth, but never taking that next step in surrendering to Christ. An enlightened person does not mean they are saved. We have many people in our churches today that are being enlightened to the truth, but still haven't surrendered their lives to Christ. They are in church every week but they are not saved. And many of them do eventually walk away. They are not losing their salvation because they never were saved.
You see, there were many Hebrew people following along with the teaching. They were being "enlightened" to the truth. The problem is they never surrendered their life to Christ because of what it would cost them.
I believe in the permanency of salvation because I know that salvation is a work of God, not man. It is God who saves us, and it is God who keeps us saved. If we say we have eternal life, but also believe it can be lost, is it really eternal?
Salvation is eternal unto life at the foot of the cross and we must know that place by our original repentance experience yet not laying aside the grace that God had for us as he turned our minds toward Him as he led us to His place of repentance, our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Hope all is well your way, good this way. Keep the faith!
Carleton
Yes brother, salvation is eternal, amen! And I agree that it is God the Father that led us to Christ as Jesus says in John 6:44 that No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus has promised that He will raise us up at the last day. Jesus said in John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day."
It is God the Father who draws us to Christ. It is God the Father who gives us to Christ. And Christ said of all that is given to Him, He will not lose one. That seems permanent to me.
Now the word "draw" isn't the drawing that I depict when I put my hand out to draw. This is the word drag in the Greek text. It's the same word used of Lot when the angels, and if you remember when he was leaving town, didn't want to go, and he hesitated?
It was the faithfulness of God that took him by the hand and dragged him out of the city. That is the faithfulness of God. Even in our hesitations, he'll drag us. So the saying is true, "Christianity is a drag!"
I am doing well, thank you. I am also happy to hear all is well with you. The Lord is good!
It is always nice to try to communicate our hearts in His love.
Thank you brother Jesse.
Carleton
Thank you so much for the clarification. I'm sorry I didn't pick up that you were keying in on repentance. I think I'm following you now. I can be a dummy sometimes so please bear with me!
As I'm reading through your post, there is so much of the Greek coming to my mind and I'm trying not to jumble things up. I do understand God's grace (CHARIS). As far as faith goes, there are two types of faith, human faith, and the faith the Bible speaks about. We all have human faith, but not everyone has the faith that the bible speaks about. That faith only comes from God's Spirit. He is the source. In fact, the Greek word for faith in the bible means persuasion. It's when God's Spirit persuades us to do something.
And that's what makes sense when you say "Grace to have faith and confess Him and grace to repent in Him, and that God leads us by grace to repentance at the cross." That word faith literally means persuasion. God persuades us and shows us our need for repentance.
I agree that we are eternally saved at the cross. That's why the bible says we were crucified with Christ. You are at a place where you have found peace at the foot of the cross. Jesus Christ bore all of our sins at the cross, and in Him, all who have received Him are at peace.
I fully understand what you are saying about the flesh thing. The flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. Here's something I would like to share with you about the flesh. In my daily life, I find that most of my struggle is not with Satan. Most of my struggle is with Christ because my flesh is continuously trying to get down off that cross.
But praise God that he is a God of grace and mercy. And He has His ways of dealing with me when I decide to go in a different direction from where He is leading me. And as you know, sometimes it can be harsh. That's how we know we belong to Him. It's when He disciplines us or chastises us when we get out of line!
God Bless!!!
:)
Ephesians 2:8-9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Then just reading the next verse shows we are the Lords workmanship to good works and we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Thanks for sharing Ephesians 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, literally upon the basis of good works, which God has before ordained, or planned, that we should walk in them. As believers, our new position is in Christ and we are the result of His workmanship. And we're walking in the life that He created for us before we were even saved.
Hebrews 3:1-19
Hebrews 4:1-16
So the writer of Hebrews is going back to creation. He's saying if you surrender to Christ, you will be doing just what God did. You will cease from your own works, your own efforts, at your own salvation. You will cease from your own works, and you will enter into God's rest.
I am glad to hear you liked that verse I posted. I agree with how you explain about "salvation" being lost is really more for them that you may ask "were they ever really saved"? Jesus Christ knows His sheep and is known of them when it is revealed. When it is time for our Father to draw us to Him.
As the Hebrews had a lot to lose to follow the Lord and give their lives to Him. As I'm sure there are many people today in which their lives in this world may be more important that giving their lives to the Lord. It seems almost to parallel directly to the parable our Lord told us in Matthew 13:18-23. Being they who received seed in stony places or thorns. As us who are saved, and sealed, unto salvation are as they who received seed in good ground and bear good fruit for our Father in Heaven.
God Bless.
I do see the parallel in the Parable of the Sower. I love that parable and how the soil represents the heart. The seed that falls into stony places, the Greek text seems to indicate that this is not rocks mixed in with dirt, but an actual cement slab. There's just enough dirt on top of the slab to catch the seed, but not enough for the seed to take root. I notice that out of the four types of soil (Heart conditions) that this seed falls on, only one out of the four describes salvation, and that is the seed that falls on good ground, as you mentioned. That is the only one out of the four that bears fruit. Only a saved person bears fruit.
And yes, we are His sheep and He knows us (Present Tense). A saved believer, when they stand before the Lord at their appointed time, they will never hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you."
I have to admit, I thought I might have received a more negative response because I was a little unsure where you stood on the permanency of salvation. I do enjoy reading your posts and I think we are in agreement with each other on a lot of things.
Blessings, in Christ Jesus!
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Carleton
Many Blessings and peace be upon you.
Made it home, hydrating! Not that the day went exceptionally smooth but it was a good day!
Grateful and thankful!
:)
Carleton
No where in the Bible does it say "once saved always saved". It does say those who have been "partakers" of the gift of the Holy Ghost "if they shall fall away". Hebrews 6:4-6. In numerous places it speaks of those who have heard the truth, of our Lord Jesus Christ, or "escaped the pollutions of the world" and then are entangled again. 2 Peter 2:20-22. Is as the Proverb 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Repenting of the sins of this world is one of the most important messages throughout the entire Holy Bible. 1 Peter 1:14-16. The devil is the only one who wants people to keep sinning in their worldly lifestyles. Which keeps you separated from God. We are to do our best to follow in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die so we could live a life of willful sin and not care. That is what the devil wants people to think so they keep on sinning. This is not a joke or a free pass to sin. God hates sin. Though he loves the sinner and wants them to repent and turn to the Lord.
There is nothing wrong with good works. That is what makes God happy. Love. What is in your heart? It is not good works that save us. The grace, mercy, and love of God saved us as He sent us His Son. To live a perfect life for us. Good works, and repenting from sin and iniquity, is what shows our faith in the Lord that we are walking in newness of life and are His children. To live by His Will.
Don't let anyone tell you repenting and good works are taking something away from Jesus Christ. We must follow our Lord, with a pure heart, till the end.
God Bless.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Do not get standing and relationship confused. Once a person is truly saved, they are made a child of God. This is your standing and you cannot lose it. However, if a person continues in their sin, they can lose their relationship with God. Just like a rebellious child damages their relationship with their parents.
As for repentance, this is only a recognition of a persons sins and a persons decision to turn away from it. God honors that decision even if we are unable to. Salvation is totally the work of God. He draws us to Jesus who paid the price and if we accept the price, we become His, "is passed from death unto life."
The verses you read refer to genuine Christians who are following (and obeying) Christ.
If you put those verses in context with all the other verses like John 14:15, then you realize obeying is pretty important. Christianity is about following Christ, not a get out of hell free card or an unlimited license to sin. It assumes someone is a genuine Christian who avoids sin and obeys God. Obedience doesn't mean there's no grace either. We're still saved by grace, but we're genuinely trying to avoid sin. Whereas someone deliberately sinning and claiming they're saved and can do whatever they want is in danger. Many will cry out, Lord, Lord, and Jesus will not know them, which includes faux Christians.
Luke 12:10 this verse alone debunks the once saved always saved belief, because it clearly says this sin will not be forgiven. Also, no one is 'saved' until they are judged after this life. Those who genuinely follow Jesus can have assurance in salvation, but the Word also says to fear God. Luke 12:4.
I have a feeling these verses won't change anyone's mind once you've made up your mind what you want to believe, but perhaps at least pray about it before suggesting to others that they're saved even if they commit horrific sins and live in the Word and turn their back on Jesus to follow the devil as some Christians sometimes do. Hitler grew up attending church and if you believe OSAS maybe some think Hitler and everyone will be in heaven too along with all other mass murderers. But I don't believe that, I believe satan is trying to convince people they don't need to obey God anymore. God bless.
Please do not take offense to my reply, I only want to clarify my answers for others. I have heard arguments such as yours many times. However, they fail to stand when all scripture is considered.
You are correct stating "genuine Christian" "trying to avoid sin" and a person is "claiming they're saved and can do whatever they want."
You have just described two different persons you will find in Christianity. One has repented, ask for forgiveness, and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ to save them. The other only claims to have done this. One has been saved by the work of Christ and is given eternal life, the other has not.
As for judgments after death, the unbeliever is already judged and condemned, Joh 3:18. The judgments after death are the Judgement Seat of Christ to judge the believers service with lose of rewards not salvation, Rom 14:10, 2Co 5:10, 1Cor 3:12-15. The second is the Great White Throne Judgment for those that rejected God's truth with punishment in the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15.
Do not misunderstand me, there are consequences to sin, even for the saved. Rev. 3:19
However, chastening is not the loss of salvation.
Where I see an error is in your misunderstanding of Luke 12:10. To blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is to reject His ministry. What is His ministry?
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
If an unsaved person continually rejects the Holy Spirits efforts to convince them of their sins and need of salvation through Jesus Christ, then they will not be forgiven. A person that is "truly" saved cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit as they have accepted His witness and is then indwelled by Him. Rom. 8:9, 14, 1Cor. 6:11, 2Cor. 1:22, Eph. 4:30
As for obedience (works) see the following: Eph. 2:9, Mat. 11:30, Joh. 8:36.
We obey Jesus out of love not to be co-redeemers.
Thank you and God bless
If I may add a little more to the truth you have shared, I believe there are only two types of people in this world, saved and unsaved. A person is either a slave to Jesus Christ or a slave to sin, no in-between. I believe that salvation is a present-tense condition of everyone who has been born of God's Spirit. A true believer who is being led by God's Spirit would never think it is okay to commit sin or to live a sinful lifestyle.
There are many who claim to be Christians but have never been born of the Spirit of Christ. They may go to church religiously and participate with the believers and give the appearance of being a believer, but still be void of God's Spirit dwelling within. Those are the ones who eventually walk away. To the others in the church who assumed that person was saved, they will say "See, he walked away and denounced the whole thing, so he lost his salvation.
This was the same with Judas Iscariot. He was part of the twelve but he was evil from the start. Judas was never saved and then lost his salvation. Jesus chose an evil man to fulfil the scripture saying that He would be betrayed. When Jesus said have not I chosen you all, and one of you is a devil, none of the other 11 knew that it was Judas. But Jesus knew, and that is why He chose Judas.
I shared earlier about the people in the book of Hebrews who were being "enlighted" to the truth, but later on turned and walked away. Those were Hebrew/Jewish people. They were never saved, but people want to use verses in Hebrews to show that salvation can be lost. I know of a couple of verses in Hebrews that are being used to show that salvation can be lost, Hebrews 6:4 and Hebrews 10:26, and also one in Peter's writings, but none of them is talking about saved people losing their salvation.
The bible speaks about those who profess to be Christian and later on walk away from it all. That's given to us in ( 1 John 2:19). They walk away because they were never saved to begin with!
I just wanted to say Amen to everything you just said here. Very well said!!!
Naturally, I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture and the assumptions made.
I believe the argument of once saved always saved contradicts itself. Here's how:
1. Someone believes God gave them freewill.
2. Someone believes all Christians are already 'saved' and that status never changes.
3. Then they are asked about Luke 12:10 blasphemy of the holy ghost.
4. They then claim it doesn't apply to Christians, that Christians can't, that they don't even have the freewill to sin, despite many documented cases of Christians doing exactly that both in the Bible and in the world today. Isaiah 14:12-14 shows that even angels in heaven have freewill to sin and blaspheme.
Christians still need to face judgment day like everyone else. Only after can someone be actually saved. If we genuinely follow Christ we can be assured of salvation, but the Bible warns us plenty of times to obey, to run the race, to persevere, to abide in the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:8-9, it paints a much different picture than that I get from others who claim its ok to sin, that you can't sin, that you can be in the world and do whatever you want with zero penalty, and don't even have to worry about turning your back on Christ or blaspheming, because you can't do that. That's the opposite message of what Jesus said. Hebrews 6:4, John 14:15, Matthew 5:13, MATTHEW 7:23.
If once saved always saved is true, does that mean Christians can commit mass murder and still go to heaven? violence? rape? blasphemy? Or that their freewill is restricted so it's impossible for that to happen? Judas betrayed Jesus, and many Christians leave the faith and reject Jesus, unfortunately. There's a forum on Reddit called ex-Christian if you don't believe it. So, are all ex-Christians who reject Jesus still saved then?
Which is more likely: that satan, the father of lies is deceiving Christians into obeying God more than necessary, or that committing unlimited sin is ok?
As I'd just like to reply to your post and just to bring peace. Like I stated how I agree with Jesse on his view I also agree with you on this. As you give solid reasons in you posts. How even angels have been known to have sinned and turn from God.
Me giving the answer of "yes and no" to this question of OSAS I'm sure would not hold up well to most. Though as I stated that God knows who shall endure until the end as in Matthew 24:13 being they that shall be saved. The Lord knowing His sheep. Though we as men should not take this situation lightly at all. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow. As we have been bought with a price and we are His children 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. To live by His Will not our own and to follow our Lord Jesus Christ with zeal.
Taking this in the way of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:18-23, seems to be accurate. In that those who fall away may have not even been truly saved in the first place. Though only God can really answer that truthfully.
We must strive to not lose our savor as our Lord told us. To run the race till the end keeping the faith.
Again I also side with you in that this is no small matter to take lightly as some may today. Just reading through the first three chapters of Revelation and seeing how Jesus Christ spake unto the churches. Having good things to say and bad things to get them to repent of and focus on Him. Sometimes I say to some people "Would you want the Lord to be happy with you or disappointed in you"?
We have been Blessed with free will. This is what makes people who endure till the end even more special. With a pure heart. To one day be glorified and be with our Lord where He is. Amen.
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