Why is it Jacob ( in the Old testament) is given a bum rap time and time again in church over the years question mark ! All he did was claim what was rightfully his after his brother Esau sold his birthright to him for some food ( pottage ) ! Yet over the years he has been "bad mouthed" in Sunday School as a whole in the Baptist church and other places. Why question mark ! I have gone back and read his story over again lately and find GOD never rebuked him and his Father Abraham never rebuked him as well !
Daniel, may the Spirit grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
You ask why Jacob is bad mouthed so much in the church (most have worldly wisdom)?
Why is Judas bad mouthed so much in the church? Was not he one of the chosen? Did he not perform the job he was chosen for, just as Pharaoh, also Esau and Jacob as well as us today; we being used also by God to do HIS WORKS.
Romans 9
You would not have a saviour if you didn't have a Judas. Do you not think Our LORD is not doing these same kind of WORKS today? In all of history God uses man to do HIS WORKS, just and unjust.
Isaiah 10
But God has already provided for their return to the kingdom.
Romans 8:19-21 For the earnest EXPECTATION of the CREATURE WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.
(vs 20) For the creature was made SUBJECT TO VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(vs 21) BECAUSE THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death) UNTO THE LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come upon Mt. Zion to judge the Mt. of Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lords.
If I may just ask you a question or two. To say "most will not believe this" I'm not sure what you mean. Are you implicating that there is no such thing as "saved and unsaved"? Are you stating all are to be saved no matter what??
Of coarse I believe God uses all, just and unjust, to fulfill His Will as He is always in control. Though I don't see all being saved which would basically make the whole Holy Bible of no avail. Also it would mean actually, like some people push today, that there is no "right or wrong". Which is of the devil or what he would want people to believe.
Also with the word "creature" which is the Greek word "ktisis" which basically means "the original formation or created being". To me this means our human(physical) body and as children of God, who are with the Lord, wait earnestly for our glorified bodies. Are you taking the word "creature" to mean like a "devil" or evil person against God? Maybe mixing them up?
It would be nice to think everybody is going to be saved and go to Heaven. Though that is not what the Bible teaches. As in 1 John 3:7-10 that all are not children of God. Also many teachings of Jesus Christ. As God makes some vessels to show his wrath unto destruction and some to show the riches of His glory and mercy to be glorified. All for His Will.
In the end the Lord is the Judge not me. Please correct me if anything I said was off and I went too far with my post. Thank you Earl.
Richard, I know you know these verses; but look a little closer. HIS wisdom HIS understanding.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
These sheep are the firstborn (FIRSTFRUITS) of Christ being gathered in the age we are in.
John 10:16 And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this FOLD (the age we are in now): them also will I bring (in ages to come) and they shall hear my voice (they can't hear his voice now because he is not calling to them now; but when he calls in the ages to come they shall hear); and there shall be ONE FOLD, and one shepherd.
Romans 11:16 For if the FIRSTFRUITS BE HOLY; the LUMP IS ALSO HOLY.....
Thank you for those verses Earl. I will write how I perceive them.
In John 10:14. Yes the Lord knows His sheep and all that shall be saved. As He knows the end from the beginning. In that I myself could never tell anyone if they are saved, or will be, or not as it is all God's Will. Though in Matthew 7:21-23. stating there will be some that call out to Him Lord Lord!! Though He never knew them. Showing me that not all are of the Lord's sheep.
In John 10:16. I see this as the Lord starting with the children of Israel where He went about His mission for over three years. The "other sheep not of this fold", to me, are of all other people around the world or the Gentiles. That the Gospel began to be taught to after his death and resurrection. Though as we know not everyone who hears the Gospel accepts it no matter a Jew or Gentile.
With Romans 11:16. I see it as like in John 15:1-8. As Jesus Christ being the true vine and us(in Him) being the branches. As if we don't abide in Him we are good for nothing. I don't see all becoming holy(or saved) as Revelation 22:11.
Please let me know what you think. The two ways we may see these things are ok to me. I see no problem with having a bit different interpretations of these things. The Lords Will shall be done either way and I know I could be wrong. It is good for us to converse our feelings.
In reality the most important thing for all of us is to be close with the Lord and live by the Will of our Father in Heaven. 1 Corinthians 9:14.
Putting all our trust and faith in Him no matter what happens. Amen.
Richard, we will be given a new body because we were raised with Christ (first resurrection); those in the second resurrection will be raised back in their fleshly bodies. They will go thru the tribulations of the flesh. Some places in scripture says two fold and others seven fold. We basically were in tribulation seventy years (or the days of our life). The scriptures say they will be in tribulation for the age. This age so for has been 2000 years; how long that age will last we don't know. Don't think that their judgements want be severe or short.
Ezekiel 46:16-18
We are the sons (firstborn) they are the servants to the firstborn; Christ being THE HEAD.
Richard, I don't have internet. I go to my daughter's house to use her computer so I can expand the page to larger print. My eyesight isn't so good. I didn't even know this kind of forum was possible until about 8 months ago. Since I want see you response until I read it here. Please don't think I am ignoring you. I will respond back.
Richard, may the Spirit grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding
Isaiah 55:11 So shall MY WORD BE that goeth forth out of MY MOUTH, IT SHALL NOT RETURN UNTO ME VOID, but it shall accomplish that which I PLEASE, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I SENT IT.
Most (in the age we are in now) want believe (ALL GOD'S WORDS only some of God's words) because GOD'S WORD SAYS THEY WANT. All eyes and ears have been closed, only those he is calling NOW will hear and see.
Isaiah 6:9-13 (vs 12) And the Lord have removed man (creature or creation) far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
(vs 13) But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth (the tithe to God, the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD) and it shall return (in the ages to come) and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOLY SEED) IS IN THEM, when they (THE HOLY SEED) cast their leaves: so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Revelation 22:2 .... for the healing of the nations
Ezekiel 47:6-8
In the age we are in, yes there is saved and unsaved (vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour) THE WORKS OF GOD for his pleasure. Since they were made vessels of dishonour for HIS WORKS then God has provided a way for them to enter into the kingdom in the coming ages.
There is hundreds of scriptures that says ALL CREATURES OR CREATION will worship God. They can't worship God without being lead into the light; this is what the SONS OF GOD (Christ and HIS royal priesthood are doing to do.
We are not saved to go to heaven; we are saved to rule God's KINGDOM ON EARTH with HIM. The shadow is in the old; as Moses had judges under him we will be judges under Christ. What was to be fulfilled by the first Israel in driving out all worshippers of other gods will be fulfilled by the SONS OF GOD (true Israel).
Richard, this truth does't come easily because we have been blinded by the wisdom of this world.
I very much enjoy reading your posts. Thank you kindly for your replies. It is a Blessing to be able to converse with you on things like this.
First I will start by saying exactly what shall happen is all up to God, and His Will, as you know. In reality I don't believe any of us can perceive how deep the thoughts, and plans, of God truly are. One day when we return to Him, after our physical death, then we shall know things not known in earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
As I'm still not positive if that you perceive ALL to be saved in the end but that's what I think.
If it is God's will that all shall be saved then I'm all for that. For His Will shall be done and whatever that is is what I want also. Though I have so many Scriptures that pertain to things like "the unsaved being cast into eternal damnation, it being better that Judas Iscariot was not even born, things of Heaven(which I believe to be the Spiritual Kingdom of God), our names written in the book of Life, that not everyone's name shall be written in this book, etc." Also of things like you stated how the wisdom of God shall fill the earth. Habakkuk 2:14.
I believe, from my aspect, that all have the choice and chance to be saved by God. His mercy and forgiveness is everlasting. No matter what we have done in our lives. Though it doesn't seem all choose that path or will be with the Lord for eternity. As even angels have sinned and turned against God.
I will just post all the Scriptures I have that I see these things in. As no man taught me about the Lord. God lead me to Jesus Christ who saved me.
About Judas Matthew 26:24.
Not all making it to Heaven Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:37-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 22:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1-9, 2 Peter 2:17,
Richard, I know you have been taught by the Holy Spirit; because he is causing you see and hear. He gives us the light of his death and resurrection; when we have digested that he causes us to hunger again for more of him. When the next bit of light is digested we hunger once more. This hunger want stop until we are completely filled. Most being fulfilled at the redemption of the purchased possession. WHEN WE WILL BE GIVEN THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE. In the mean time he keeps giving us more light as we believe.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath (light), to him shall be given (more light), and he shall have more abundance....
I too enjoy studying and being edified with other believers.
Hello Earl, It is my experience, and the joy in my heart that more Light from the Gospel, from the Holy Ghost, from the brethren, from God, increases our sanctification which only makes us more common in Spirit, so that Jesus, is the Glory for ever and ever.
Hi Daniel, I suppose that Jacob (Israel) figures more prominently throughout Scripture than Esau, so churches tend to emphasize his 'bad' character. However, Esau was equally to blame for handing over his birthright ( Hebrews 12:16) & then after Isaac's blessing was given to Jacob, throwing a tantrum over his loss.
Yet we also need to bear in mind Genesis 25:21-23. Here, we see that Rebekah enquired of the Lord about the "struggle she was experiencing in her womb". And the Lord spoke about the twins there & how the elder twin would one day serve the younger. It seems that Isaac wasn't aware of this Word from God, or else he, in his old age, had forgotten about it ( Genesis 27:33-37). And of course, Rebekah herself was right in the middle of this debacle & was equally guilty. So none of them are innocent in all this & yet God used the weaknesses of people (their fleshly desires & schemes) to fulfil His Purposes. Maybe, churches & Sunday Schools need to relate the complete story & learn from the mistakes of others & of course, the sovereignty of God.
You ask why Jacob is bad mouthed so much in the church (most have worldly wisdom)?
Why is Judas bad mouthed so much in the church? Was not he one of the chosen? Did he not perform the job he was chosen for, just as Pharaoh, also Esau and Jacob as well as us today; we being used also by God to do HIS WORKS.
Romans 9
You would not have a saviour if you didn't have a Judas. Do you not think Our LORD is not doing these same kind of WORKS today? In all of history God uses man to do HIS WORKS, just and unjust.
Isaiah 10
But God has already provided for their return to the kingdom.
Romans 8:19-21 For the earnest EXPECTATION of the CREATURE WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.
(vs 20) For the creature was made SUBJECT TO VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(vs 21) BECAUSE THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death) UNTO THE LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come upon Mt. Zion to judge the Mt. of Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lords.
MOST WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS.
If I may just ask you a question or two. To say "most will not believe this" I'm not sure what you mean. Are you implicating that there is no such thing as "saved and unsaved"? Are you stating all are to be saved no matter what??
Of coarse I believe God uses all, just and unjust, to fulfill His Will as He is always in control. Though I don't see all being saved which would basically make the whole Holy Bible of no avail. Also it would mean actually, like some people push today, that there is no "right or wrong". Which is of the devil or what he would want people to believe.
Also with the word "creature" which is the Greek word "ktisis" which basically means "the original formation or created being". To me this means our human(physical) body and as children of God, who are with the Lord, wait earnestly for our glorified bodies. Are you taking the word "creature" to mean like a "devil" or evil person against God? Maybe mixing them up?
It would be nice to think everybody is going to be saved and go to Heaven. Though that is not what the Bible teaches. As in 1 John 3:7-10 that all are not children of God. Also many teachings of Jesus Christ. As God makes some vessels to show his wrath unto destruction and some to show the riches of His glory and mercy to be glorified. All for His Will.
In the end the Lord is the Judge not me. Please correct me if anything I said was off and I went too far with my post. Thank you Earl.
God Bless.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
These sheep are the firstborn (FIRSTFRUITS) of Christ being gathered in the age we are in.
John 10:16 And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this FOLD (the age we are in now): them also will I bring (in ages to come) and they shall hear my voice (they can't hear his voice now because he is not calling to them now; but when he calls in the ages to come they shall hear); and there shall be ONE FOLD, and one shepherd.
Romans 11:16 For if the FIRSTFRUITS BE HOLY; the LUMP IS ALSO HOLY.....
In John 10:14. Yes the Lord knows His sheep and all that shall be saved. As He knows the end from the beginning. In that I myself could never tell anyone if they are saved, or will be, or not as it is all God's Will. Though in Matthew 7:21-23. stating there will be some that call out to Him Lord Lord!! Though He never knew them. Showing me that not all are of the Lord's sheep.
In John 10:16. I see this as the Lord starting with the children of Israel where He went about His mission for over three years. The "other sheep not of this fold", to me, are of all other people around the world or the Gentiles. That the Gospel began to be taught to after his death and resurrection. Though as we know not everyone who hears the Gospel accepts it no matter a Jew or Gentile.
With Romans 11:16. I see it as like in John 15:1-8. As Jesus Christ being the true vine and us(in Him) being the branches. As if we don't abide in Him we are good for nothing. I don't see all becoming holy(or saved) as Revelation 22:11.
Please let me know what you think. The two ways we may see these things are ok to me. I see no problem with having a bit different interpretations of these things. The Lords Will shall be done either way and I know I could be wrong. It is good for us to converse our feelings.
In reality the most important thing for all of us is to be close with the Lord and live by the Will of our Father in Heaven. 1 Corinthians 9:14.
Putting all our trust and faith in Him no matter what happens. Amen.
Ezekiel 46:16-18
We are the sons (firstborn) they are the servants to the firstborn; Christ being THE HEAD.
Isaiah 55:11 So shall MY WORD BE that goeth forth out of MY MOUTH, IT SHALL NOT RETURN UNTO ME VOID, but it shall accomplish that which I PLEASE, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I SENT IT.
Most (in the age we are in now) want believe (ALL GOD'S WORDS only some of God's words) because GOD'S WORD SAYS THEY WANT. All eyes and ears have been closed, only those he is calling NOW will hear and see.
Isaiah 6:9-13 (vs 12) And the Lord have removed man (creature or creation) far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
(vs 13) But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth (the tithe to God, the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD) and it shall return (in the ages to come) and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOLY SEED) IS IN THEM, when they (THE HOLY SEED) cast their leaves: so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Revelation 22:2 .... for the healing of the nations
Ezekiel 47:6-8
In the age we are in, yes there is saved and unsaved (vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour) THE WORKS OF GOD for his pleasure. Since they were made vessels of dishonour for HIS WORKS then God has provided a way for them to enter into the kingdom in the coming ages.
There is hundreds of scriptures that says ALL CREATURES OR CREATION will worship God. They can't worship God without being lead into the light; this is what the SONS OF GOD (Christ and HIS royal priesthood are doing to do.
We are not saved to go to heaven; we are saved to rule God's KINGDOM ON EARTH with HIM. The shadow is in the old; as Moses had judges under him we will be judges under Christ. What was to be fulfilled by the first Israel in driving out all worshippers of other gods will be fulfilled by the SONS OF GOD (true Israel).
Richard, this truth does't come easily because we have been blinded by the wisdom of this world.
I'm sure we will continue this topic for a while.
I very much enjoy reading your posts. Thank you kindly for your replies. It is a Blessing to be able to converse with you on things like this.
First I will start by saying exactly what shall happen is all up to God, and His Will, as you know. In reality I don't believe any of us can perceive how deep the thoughts, and plans, of God truly are. One day when we return to Him, after our physical death, then we shall know things not known in earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
As I'm still not positive if that you perceive ALL to be saved in the end but that's what I think.
If it is God's will that all shall be saved then I'm all for that. For His Will shall be done and whatever that is is what I want also. Though I have so many Scriptures that pertain to things like "the unsaved being cast into eternal damnation, it being better that Judas Iscariot was not even born, things of Heaven(which I believe to be the Spiritual Kingdom of God), our names written in the book of Life, that not everyone's name shall be written in this book, etc." Also of things like you stated how the wisdom of God shall fill the earth. Habakkuk 2:14.
I believe, from my aspect, that all have the choice and chance to be saved by God. His mercy and forgiveness is everlasting. No matter what we have done in our lives. Though it doesn't seem all choose that path or will be with the Lord for eternity. As even angels have sinned and turned against God.
I will just post all the Scriptures I have that I see these things in. As no man taught me about the Lord. God lead me to Jesus Christ who saved me.
About Judas Matthew 26:24.
Not all making it to Heaven Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:37-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 22:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1-9, 2 Peter 2:17,
Heaven Matthew 25:31-34, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, Philippians 3:20-21, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, 2 Timothy 4:18.
2 Peter 1:20. May the Lord bring us closer together.
God Bless.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath (light), to him shall be given (more light), and he shall have more abundance....
I too enjoy studying and being edified with other believers.
May our Father pour His Blessings upon us all, and fill us with His wisdom and Holy Spirit, without ceasing.
Peace be upon you.
Yet we also need to bear in mind Genesis 25:21-23. Here, we see that Rebekah enquired of the Lord about the "struggle she was experiencing in her womb". And the Lord spoke about the twins there & how the elder twin would one day serve the younger. It seems that Isaac wasn't aware of this Word from God, or else he, in his old age, had forgotten about it ( Genesis 27:33-37). And of course, Rebekah herself was right in the middle of this debacle & was equally guilty. So none of them are innocent in all this & yet God used the weaknesses of people (their fleshly desires & schemes) to fulfil His Purposes. Maybe, churches & Sunday Schools need to relate the complete story & learn from the mistakes of others & of course, the sovereignty of God.
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