Hi Chris ,i noticed you asked Earl about his beliefs ,or lack of ,regarding hell ,i dont mean to but in i promise ,i actually do not understand what it is i am supposed to believe about hell ,genuinely ,what is hell ? Who goes there ? Why ? What happens there ? I honestly dont know ,i guess it doesnt help that i dont believe humans are immortal ,this could be a big discussion and i havent had coffee yet ,i just wanted you and everyone on here to know that there is defo more than one person who doesnt believe in hell as a place of permenant torture for millions of people . God is love ,the soul that sinneth it shall die .We all sin we all die ,some of us will be ressurected to judgement and the rest are just dead . Big topic !
Thank you Sacha for your comment. Now this thread you refer to, I do remember. I know that many don't believe in a literal place of suffering & eternal torment, as those who refer to themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same. All that we know of such a place is found in God's Word, so it boils down to whether we accept what is given or treat those passages as somehow lacking in actuality & just a vivid description of a soul's abandonment.
Sacha, you are well read in the Scriptures, so I need not list even some of those passages which speak of suffering & an eternal torment. I would say that many of the people I've spoken to who also don't believe in a place of suffering, usually cannot fathom how a merciful loving God could consign anyone to such a place - surely there must be some respite & future forgiveness or else, the sinner must just disappear into non-existence into the earth.
Simply put, why I believe in a literal place of punishment & torment is because OF THE CROSS. You & I know that all of mankind are sinners & our sins have separated us from God ( Isaiah 59:2). So why should God provide such a Sacrifice for us? Since we ALL have to die physically, why not just let us "eat, drink & be merry" for only the grave lies before us?
Did Jesus, the Son of God, willingly lay down His Life just to give us better option of deliverance than just returning back to dust? True, the prospect of living eternally in God's Presence ought to be our desire, but for me (& from the preaching of Jesus & the apostles), the CERTAINTY of eternal torment (for my sins & rejection of God's salvation) is equally compelling for me to flee the sinful life & cleave to the One Who gives new life & hope. If there wasn't a hell, then God fails as a God of justice, as death alone is insufficient punishment for sin. ( Matthew 25:41). The fact that God provided us a place at Calvary proves that His Love was so great that warranted our preservation from a place far worse than death.
The sinner must just disapear into non existence into the earth ,Chris yes ,why is it that anyone should believe that they diserve more than that ? The soul thar sinneth it shall die ,if i were not saved what would i prefer to happen to me after death ,eternal infernal torture by some horrifying demon or to just cease to exist ? The dead know nothing ,no pain no sadness no nothing ,they dont exist and unless they have entered into a covenant relationship with God ,either by circumcision if they are Jewish or baptism if Christian the dead just stay dead . That is what we all deserve because of our sinfullness ,God in His very great and tender mercy ,because He loves us ,devised a means by which we might be reconciled to Him by faith in the life and works and willing sacrifice of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ the Righteous .
Re: the Lake of Fire. It is prepared for the Devil & his angels ( Matthew 25:41) but is also the place where all Christ-rejecters go to in the final judgement ( Revelation 20:10-15) & particularly verse 15, "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." And that includes not only the Devil & his angels but also the anti-Christ, the false prophet & all mankind that were not found in the Book of Life.
"Who created such a place?" I would say that God has done this. "Who does "the torturing in hell?" No one - it is a place of continual fire where the act of dying is continual but death that is longed for never comes ( Mark 9:43-48).
And these are not parables by Jesus; Jesus is telling us what lies beyond the grave. And that is why Jesus came to die on our behalf: that we might be spared God's Judgement to enjoy new life on Earth & then eternity in His Presence. As I mentioned before, if just dying & returning to dust was our punishment, the Gospel would be practically meaningless, as we all have to die & enter into such a state of 'oblivion'. But Jesus says that some will awake to "the resurrection of life & some to the resurrection of damnation" ( John 5:29). There is no permanent middle ground at the graveside - we all have to go somewhere else - and that's why the Gospel is so special & precious: it saves a person entirely, both in this life and the next.
To respond to your questions Sacha: "The soul that sinneth it shall die, if I were not saved what would I prefer to happen to me after death, eternal infernal torture by some horrifying demon or to just cease to exist?" I believe that you're quoting from Ezekiel chapter 18; if so, then this chapter speaks about the punishment of a son for his father's sins. The answer is that each one is responsible for his own sins (verses 4 & 20). So the death spoken of here is not one of judgement in the afterlife but of punishment received now (i.e. the death sentence) for committing such sins as shown in this chapter. As well, you asked "what would I prefer to happen to me after death". I think we would all prefer to live in total happiness & bliss, but what we prefer to happen to us is not necessarily what God's Justice demands.
Indeed, the "dead know not anything" ( Ecclesiastes 9:5), & as we know that Book is essentially a discussion about life, its vanities & its inconsistencies. So yes, in the grave, the body is not only in decomposition but also has no mental activity - this is simply the state of the dead & not of judgement. The Jews indeed entered into a Covenant relationship with their Creator, but the same Jew has no recourse to that circumcision or to the Law that would usher him into God's Presence, if he chooses to reject the Sacrifice of God in Jesus. Both Jew & Gentile suffer the same fate because of Unbelief & Christ-rejection.
Luke 13:28
Sacha, you are well read in the Scriptures, so I need not list even some of those passages which speak of suffering & an eternal torment. I would say that many of the people I've spoken to who also don't believe in a place of suffering, usually cannot fathom how a merciful loving God could consign anyone to such a place - surely there must be some respite & future forgiveness or else, the sinner must just disappear into non-existence into the earth.
Simply put, why I believe in a literal place of punishment & torment is because OF THE CROSS. You & I know that all of mankind are sinners & our sins have separated us from God ( Isaiah 59:2). So why should God provide such a Sacrifice for us? Since we ALL have to die physically, why not just let us "eat, drink & be merry" for only the grave lies before us?
Did Jesus, the Son of God, willingly lay down His Life just to give us better option of deliverance than just returning back to dust? True, the prospect of living eternally in God's Presence ought to be our desire, but for me (& from the preaching of Jesus & the apostles), the CERTAINTY of eternal torment (for my sins & rejection of God's salvation) is equally compelling for me to flee the sinful life & cleave to the One Who gives new life & hope. If there wasn't a hell, then God fails as a God of justice, as death alone is insufficient punishment for sin. ( Matthew 25:41). The fact that God provided us a place at Calvary proves that His Love was so great that warranted our preservation from a place far worse than death.
Re: the Lake of Fire. It is prepared for the Devil & his angels ( Matthew 25:41) but is also the place where all Christ-rejecters go to in the final judgement ( Revelation 20:10-15) & particularly verse 15, "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." And that includes not only the Devil & his angels but also the anti-Christ, the false prophet & all mankind that were not found in the Book of Life.
"Who created such a place?" I would say that God has done this. "Who does "the torturing in hell?" No one - it is a place of continual fire where the act of dying is continual but death that is longed for never comes ( Mark 9:43-48).
And these are not parables by Jesus; Jesus is telling us what lies beyond the grave. And that is why Jesus came to die on our behalf: that we might be spared God's Judgement to enjoy new life on Earth & then eternity in His Presence. As I mentioned before, if just dying & returning to dust was our punishment, the Gospel would be practically meaningless, as we all have to die & enter into such a state of 'oblivion'. But Jesus says that some will awake to "the resurrection of life & some to the resurrection of damnation" ( John 5:29). There is no permanent middle ground at the graveside - we all have to go somewhere else - and that's why the Gospel is so special & precious: it saves a person entirely, both in this life and the next.
To respond to your questions Sacha: "The soul that sinneth it shall die, if I were not saved what would I prefer to happen to me after death, eternal infernal torture by some horrifying demon or to just cease to exist?" I believe that you're quoting from Ezekiel chapter 18; if so, then this chapter speaks about the punishment of a son for his father's sins. The answer is that each one is responsible for his own sins (verses 4 & 20). So the death spoken of here is not one of judgement in the afterlife but of punishment received now (i.e. the death sentence) for committing such sins as shown in this chapter. As well, you asked "what would I prefer to happen to me after death". I think we would all prefer to live in total happiness & bliss, but what we prefer to happen to us is not necessarily what God's Justice demands.
Indeed, the "dead know not anything" ( Ecclesiastes 9:5), & as we know that Book is essentially a discussion about life, its vanities & its inconsistencies. So yes, in the grave, the body is not only in decomposition but also has no mental activity - this is simply the state of the dead & not of judgement. The Jews indeed entered into a Covenant relationship with their Creator, but the same Jew has no recourse to that circumcision or to the Law that would usher him into God's Presence, if he chooses to reject the Sacrifice of God in Jesus. Both Jew & Gentile suffer the same fate because of Unbelief & Christ-rejection.
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