Bible Discussion Thread

Chris , Psalm 37 is all about how we should not evny the apparent prosperity and happiness of the wicked and what their end shall be ,you will notice that nothing is mentioned about them going to hell to be tortured for eternity by hideous demons ,there is more than one Psalm in this vein but its the one that comes straight to mind to me .

Hi Sacha. You're bringing the OT to find justification for "eternal torture by hideous demons". And you're right, you won't find it here as that was unknown at that time. All that was quoted was the word 'sheol', which sometimes applied to hell or the grave and often, as in Psalm 37, the wicked will be "cut off" of suffer under the Hand of God. Nowhere do we see a Lake of Fire & eternal suffering.

And that is why we have all of Scripture to consider on this matter. If all we had was the OT, then I could well agree with you that death was our punishment & final resting place. But the NT, specifically Jesus' own Words while on Earth (the Gospels) & from Heaven (the Revelation), show us more of this place of punishment which wasn't revealed in its fullness in the OT.

And yet I thought further on this matter & the Gospel now given to us. Let's suppose, I, as an unbeliever was being witnessed to by you & you spoke to me about the life-changing, life-giving message of the Gospel through God's Son. You talked about the resurrection to eternal life & eternal bliss with God, forever enjoying God's Presence & Heaven's blessings. But I, as a hardened sinner, asked "what would happen if I enjoyed my sinful lifestyle as it gave me much pleasure & refused God's offer of salvation?" Of course, your response would be, "as an unrepentant sinner, rejecting God's offer of salvation, you would not be received into God's Kingdom & you wouldn't have eternal life". But I insist, "but what happens to me & those who refuse to accept Jesus as my Saviour?" Your answer would have to be, "you will remain in the grave, dead, & lost without any hope". And I would say, "well we all have to die & some of us (most of us) will just remain dead". Do you see what I'm saying Sacha? Death is not the punishment - we all have to experience it because we're sinners. The Gospel in its fullness is 'salvation through faith in Jesus Christ from both sin's penalty & eternal punishment'. They both go together.

Unknown at that time ,at that time ,God had a very up close and personal relationship with Israel ,He appeared to them often and spoke to them often throug signs and wonders and prophets ,do you think He would have kept something as important as that from His witnesses ? If yes ,why do you think He would have kept something as important as that from His witnesses ? Im giving up now ,i know what you think and i know what i know , i hope we can chat on a different subject some time ,love in Christ .p.s. Thats not a rhetorical question ,please answer if thats ok with you .

Sacha, it is possible that the OT folk knew something of a suffering beyond the grave, but I agree that there's not a lot mentioned in that respect. We could look at Daniel 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Here the thought is that those who die will awake (resurrection?), some to everlasting life & some to everlasting contempt. So even if one doesn't believe in a never-ending suffering, this verse shows that the dead don't remain dead but arise to some sort of judgement & punishment that doesn't end.

Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." In this verse, the word "Tophet" is used & in the Greek (NT) is translated as Gehenna. This was a place near Jerusalem, in which the idolatrous Israelites used to offer up their children to Moloch. It may be put, for any place of torment; and particularly it is put for hell. "For the king": For the king of Assyria. "Fire": He alludes to the ancient custom, of burning sacrifices, and particularly of burning children to Moloch. "The breath": The immediate Hand of God, or His Word of anger. "Brimstone": alludes to that shower of fire and brimstone seen in Gen 19:24. Though this verse doesn't speak of an after death judgement, it reveals its counterpart in the NT.

You can also look at Isaiah 66:22-24. So I can't say why there was not more written about this subject in the OT & even among Jews there are different camps as to what to believe. For me, I think it sufficient that Jesus spoke very clearly about it & treated the everlasting suffering of the sinner as real & it was for this reason He came so that none should fall under the Hand of God ( Hebrews 10:31).