What does it mean to be the "only begotten Son "? If your reasoning is based on what he said, Can you define what does it mean to be the only begotten Son of God, And he's also considered the Son of David, and the Son of Man.
Being consistent in your reasoning and using the same logic give your take on these things.
As sons of our earthly father we know we were brought into this world by him and after him.
Jesus Christ is from everlasting to everlasting, Pre existence, The ending and the beginning, The Alpha and Omega, He was in the fathers bosom, He said ME and my Father are one, He said if you have seen the me, you have seen the father. He Said he's ""THE"" Almighty. Isaiah called him the Everlasting "FATHER".
Why don't you explain your case against the deity of Christ using the same Reasoning and logic.
OPEN UP AND TELL US WHAT ALL I MENTIONED WHICH IS IN SCRIPTURE MEANS TO YOU!!
I agree with what you've written there. But you say that "this is a real problem to truth seekers".
I suppose, if the 'truth seeker' is not conversant with the Bible & only knows Jesus as the Son of God, then it would be correct to believe that Jesus had no prior existence, that Jesus was a specially created man, born of a virgin, without sin, had a great ministry amongst His people, & ultimately put to death for mankind's sins. But you feel that maybe the claim that "Jesus is God" creates a problem to these seekers.
If I were to share with such a seeker, I would have to speak to him about Who this Creator God is (i.e. His Nature/His Character); Who this Son of God is & Who this Spirit of God is. And all these terms we read of in the Bible which would require a lot of examination from the Scriptures.
However, I perceive that you may be questioning this yourself: if Jesus never claimed to be God and since the Creator God is One God, then why do some Christians claim that Jesus is God (or actually, that Jesus is part of the Godhead)? And since you want to see the actual words, "Jesus said that He was God" in the Bible, without inferences/allusions to that, then you would have trouble finding it. Mainly because that the Jesus we are introduced to in the Bible is found born a babe & then grown to be a man, Who was called both 'Son of God and Son of Man'.
So these terms signify Jesus' introduction into the World but the truth seeker would have to ask, "Could a specially created man, created to be the sacrifice for mankind's sins qualify to pay such a big price to appease the Creator God?" If yes, then why wouldn't a specially created animal by God (that is one that was truly spotless & unblemished than what the children of Israel provided for sacrifice) suffice for our sacrifice instead of man's death? What was about this Son of God that was different from any special creation that qualified Him to be our sacrifice? Your thoughts please?
Why are people under the delusion that Jesus was only a man if not God ?
Jesus is neither one alone .
Jesus is the Son of God as we all know , but do we understand what that makes him ? Most do not I think .
How did Jesus become the son of God ?
The answer is in the Bible the Holy Spirit from God came upon Mary who was holy or it never would have happened .
Yes sinful flesh can become holy . By putting away sin , and obeying God . Remember Enoch he walked with God and was taken to heaven , and also had a flesh inherited from the first Adam , as Mary had .
Jesus was born of God at inception within Marys womb .
The true Christ has and is come in the flesh, that's Jesus the Son of God , yet also Born of God through the Holy Spirit .
Here is how I understand how Jesus that is born of God was before the foundation of the World . It's quite simple , God the creator of everything and every man including Jesus was before all things exsisted , being the sole creator . Not hard to understand.
Since Jesus being born of God he also was with God before the foundation of the world .
Quite simple . Does that make him God ? No . But he is from God yes . The son of God . Not merely a man . But a man born also of God , he demonstrated the power of God as a man .
Yet he is not God there is only one God . The son of God come in the flesh . That's Jesus . And now at the fathers right hand ...
You wrote: "Since Jesus being born of God he also was with God before the foundation of the world". If Jesus was with God, what form did He take? Was He an angel, a heavenly being, or something else? Your answer to this will indicate what Jesus was in Heaven & then on Earth.
Concerning Mary. Mary was a sinner as we all are - even Enoch. Why God chose Mary rather than another woman we're not told, except that she was "highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." ( Luke 1:28). She wasn't made sinless so that she could bear the Son of God; she was like any other, being given the privilege to bear this Holy Child without any contribution from her.
I will go further Jesus was called Jesus at Bethlehem. Jesus was Flesh and Gods spirit .
Being born of God, Jesus's Spirit of God was WITH God or OF God . Did he have a name then ? What was it ? Does the scriptures say ? He was called Jesus , at his birth on earth . not before .it should be clear who Jesus is . It did not say that He was called Jesus from a previous life . They called him Jesus at his birth .
Because Jesus is from God as he himself said . He never called himself other than Gods son and that happened in Bethlehem. Being of God he also is before the foundation of the world , do you understand this ? If Jesus was a prophet like John only , he would be a man Spirit fulled at best like John the Baptist . But Jesus is the second Adam .
If you Jesus has not flesh then it's not the Jesus of the bible .
God says that he is not a man or has flesh , we are talking about the One God the father .
Do you believe in holiness? Was Mary not holy ? It says that without holiness no man shall see the Lord , so holiness is required and possible . In OT and NT times .
I don't have an issue with Jesus being born as a Man & being called the Son of God. I think that Who He was prior to His birth is the issue. You say that Jesus' Spirit of God was with God/of God. So are you saying that God has two Holy Spirits? One from Jesus & one from God?
Whereas the Bible in John chapter 1 declares that it was His Word that He sent forth and this Word was clothed with flesh. God's Spirit was still in operation whilst Jesus walked on the Earth. One instance was when Jesus chastised the Pharisees who accused Him of using Beelzebub the prince of devils to cast out devils ( Matthew 12:24-32). Jesus told them this was blasphemy when one speaks against the Holy Ghost (i.e. the Spirit's working). So here we have the Son of God & the Spirit of God at work simultaneously.
And yes, Jesus never said that He was God, but said that He was the Son of God - for that was Who He was on the Earth. But before He was sent to the Earth by God, He was God's spoken Word. If you believe that sending out the Word to become a Man is unbelievable, then how about sending out His Spirit to indwell a man, indeed, innumerable men? Paul even said in 1 Corinthians 15:47, "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." This second Man, the last Adam, is the Lord, the One sent by the Father from out of the Father.
And Mary was a holy person, but still a sinner. You can be holy too & still be a sinner, simply because you were born with Adam's sin nature. Jesus wasn't born in that manner - He didn't have a sin nature, though Satan greatly desired Him to have one. If Mary was a special creation, then maybe she may be in the same state as the Lord, but she was a fallen human as we are.
Just to correct a little to this post. Jesus Christ was not just flesh and God's Spirit. We (humans) are three part beings consisting of a body, soul, and spirit. Christ also has a soul. Which is "who" He is. God is life and His breath is our spirit, Job 34:14-15, and how we can have relation to God. Being able to receive His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, or the Spirit of God to indwell with our spirit after giving our lives to the Lord.
You are not the only one to not believe in the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost being ONE. Even though it is in Scripture. If that is your view.
So what about the soul of Jesus Christ and "who" He was/is? He spake what the Father wanted Him to speak though he is not the Father but the Son.
How can anyone say that God, our Father, did not have His Son with Him for any amount of time before Christ was born here of flesh? Is not anything possible with God?
Do you know of Philippians 2:6? Stating Christ was "in the form of God" and "thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
To Glory in the Son is to Glorify the Father.
I know there are different views to this and I don't think anyone here is going to change anyone else's mind. This is not a new topic.
Please don't take my post as harsh. Let us all stay focused on the Word of God and doing the Will of our Father. Which is to follow the way of Christ.
Yes it does. Just read John 1. One has to cherry pick and disregard most of Bible in order to draw such a conclusion. Specific verses that debunk this radical idea have been posted countless times here and elsewhere online. A 2 second search will show all the proof you need that Jesus is God- remember the verse the 3 are one? And the father and I are one? Only satan can be behind this effort of trying to discredit Jesus. Shame on you for spreading anti-Christian propaganda.
In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the Word was made flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (son) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
If you are born again, the Holy Spirit seals you; He is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. He indwells you. Comforts you. He is your Teacher. He anoints you to understand scripture. He is your Helper. He is gentle, and kind. He reveals Jesus to you.
Romans 1:20
John 3
You must be born again and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; to comprehend spiritual truth.
Did you not read John 1? Is your motive to gain understanding of a different perspective or to just stick with what you want to believe?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
"the Word was God."
The Bible is 100% clear that "the Word was God"- do you agree? It says it in John 1:1 verbatim.
Who is the Word? If you keep reading it answers that in 100% clear language
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
The "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us (people).
Verse 15 says John (the Baptist) bore witness to Him. This narrows it down so much there is absolutely no one else this could possibly be but Jesus Christ. It would take serious mental gymnastics to make it mean anyone else, but Jesus Christ.
So, let's review. John 1:1 In the beginning was (Jesus Christ), and the (Jesus Christ) was with God, and the (Jesus Christ) was God.
All of this we get from John 1, the scripture I already provided which you seemed to have missed.
But there's much more than one verse that says Jesus is God. When it says God, it doesn't mean God the Father though, but God the Son. And Jesus is Lord and as well as other terms used in reverence. Just because people have a hard time comprehending the "three are one" doesn't mean they need to try to rewrite the Bible to mean something entirely different. It's already correct exactly as it says. That's part of being a Christian and having faith.
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in our image"
John 11:6-7 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
John 8:19 "if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
You dont need to say any more ,you said it perfectly ,there have always been people who think that the more words they use the more likely they are to be heard and believed ,Gods message is. simple ,it always has been ,humans like to complicate things for their own benefit ,either financialy or for their own egos ,stick with the Bible ,God meant His words to be understood by everone and the more you read them and pray to Him the stronger your faith in Him will be and you will be able to discern the Truth from the vain babblings of men . Your post was perfect ,mine is too long !
Especially in the old testament God states very often that He is God alone and there is none beside Him .Is God lying in the old testament ? Is it a different God because it is the old testament ? Is God the author of confusion ?
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And Jesus never said He is God ?
I mean the actual words not implications that can go one way or another .
But Jesus many times through scriptures is called the son of God .
This is a real problem to truth seekers .
Being consistent in your reasoning and using the same logic give your take on these things.
As sons of our earthly father we know we were brought into this world by him and after him.
Jesus Christ is from everlasting to everlasting, Pre existence, The ending and the beginning, The Alpha and Omega, He was in the fathers bosom, He said ME and my Father are one, He said if you have seen the me, you have seen the father. He Said he's ""THE"" Almighty. Isaiah called him the Everlasting "FATHER".
Why don't you explain your case against the deity of Christ using the same Reasoning and logic.
OPEN UP AND TELL US WHAT ALL I MENTIONED WHICH IS IN SCRIPTURE MEANS TO YOU!!
WELCOMING A REPLY.
GOD BLESS.
I suppose, if the 'truth seeker' is not conversant with the Bible & only knows Jesus as the Son of God, then it would be correct to believe that Jesus had no prior existence, that Jesus was a specially created man, born of a virgin, without sin, had a great ministry amongst His people, & ultimately put to death for mankind's sins. But you feel that maybe the claim that "Jesus is God" creates a problem to these seekers.
If I were to share with such a seeker, I would have to speak to him about Who this Creator God is (i.e. His Nature/His Character); Who this Son of God is & Who this Spirit of God is. And all these terms we read of in the Bible which would require a lot of examination from the Scriptures.
However, I perceive that you may be questioning this yourself: if Jesus never claimed to be God and since the Creator God is One God, then why do some Christians claim that Jesus is God (or actually, that Jesus is part of the Godhead)? And since you want to see the actual words, "Jesus said that He was God" in the Bible, without inferences/allusions to that, then you would have trouble finding it. Mainly because that the Jesus we are introduced to in the Bible is found born a babe & then grown to be a man, Who was called both 'Son of God and Son of Man'.
So these terms signify Jesus' introduction into the World but the truth seeker would have to ask, "Could a specially created man, created to be the sacrifice for mankind's sins qualify to pay such a big price to appease the Creator God?" If yes, then why wouldn't a specially created animal by God (that is one that was truly spotless & unblemished than what the children of Israel provided for sacrifice) suffice for our sacrifice instead of man's death? What was about this Son of God that was different from any special creation that qualified Him to be our sacrifice? Your thoughts please?
John 1:1 THE WORD WAS GOD. = JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.
John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Thomas called Jesus Christ "God."
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make.."
"us" plural. If not Jesus Christ, who else? Do you believe in a different trinity or other Gods that don't include Jesus?
John 1:2
"The same was in the beginning with God."
Jesus was there in the beginning.
John 1:3
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
That 100% clears it up. Jesus WAS there from the beginning, with God, and WAS God. Not God the Father, but God the Son.
Have you prayed to God and asked Him if what you believe is true and if going to Bible forums and trying to discredit Jesus is ok?
Titus is giving the respect, honor, and title that's due to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Case closed.
Jesus is neither one alone .
Jesus is the Son of God as we all know , but do we understand what that makes him ? Most do not I think .
How did Jesus become the son of God ?
The answer is in the Bible the Holy Spirit from God came upon Mary who was holy or it never would have happened .
Yes sinful flesh can become holy . By putting away sin , and obeying God . Remember Enoch he walked with God and was taken to heaven , and also had a flesh inherited from the first Adam , as Mary had .
Jesus was born of God at inception within Marys womb .
The true Christ has and is come in the flesh, that's Jesus the Son of God , yet also Born of God through the Holy Spirit .
Here is how I understand how Jesus that is born of God was before the foundation of the World . It's quite simple , God the creator of everything and every man including Jesus was before all things exsisted , being the sole creator . Not hard to understand.
Since Jesus being born of God he also was with God before the foundation of the world .
Quite simple . Does that make him God ? No . But he is from God yes . The son of God . Not merely a man . But a man born also of God , he demonstrated the power of God as a man .
Yet he is not God there is only one God . The son of God come in the flesh . That's Jesus . And now at the fathers right hand ...
I hope that helps
Concerning Mary. Mary was a sinner as we all are - even Enoch. Why God chose Mary rather than another woman we're not told, except that she was "highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." ( Luke 1:28). She wasn't made sinless so that she could bear the Son of God; she was like any other, being given the privilege to bear this Holy Child without any contribution from her.
Being born of God, Jesus's Spirit of God was WITH God or OF God . Did he have a name then ? What was it ? Does the scriptures say ? He was called Jesus , at his birth on earth . not before .it should be clear who Jesus is . It did not say that He was called Jesus from a previous life . They called him Jesus at his birth .
Because Jesus is from God as he himself said . He never called himself other than Gods son and that happened in Bethlehem. Being of God he also is before the foundation of the world , do you understand this ? If Jesus was a prophet like John only , he would be a man Spirit fulled at best like John the Baptist . But Jesus is the second Adam .
If you Jesus has not flesh then it's not the Jesus of the bible .
God says that he is not a man or has flesh , we are talking about the One God the father .
Do you believe in holiness? Was Mary not holy ? It says that without holiness no man shall see the Lord , so holiness is required and possible . In OT and NT times .
Whereas the Bible in John chapter 1 declares that it was His Word that He sent forth and this Word was clothed with flesh. God's Spirit was still in operation whilst Jesus walked on the Earth. One instance was when Jesus chastised the Pharisees who accused Him of using Beelzebub the prince of devils to cast out devils ( Matthew 12:24-32). Jesus told them this was blasphemy when one speaks against the Holy Ghost (i.e. the Spirit's working). So here we have the Son of God & the Spirit of God at work simultaneously.
And yes, Jesus never said that He was God, but said that He was the Son of God - for that was Who He was on the Earth. But before He was sent to the Earth by God, He was God's spoken Word. If you believe that sending out the Word to become a Man is unbelievable, then how about sending out His Spirit to indwell a man, indeed, innumerable men? Paul even said in 1 Corinthians 15:47, "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." This second Man, the last Adam, is the Lord, the One sent by the Father from out of the Father.
And Mary was a holy person, but still a sinner. You can be holy too & still be a sinner, simply because you were born with Adam's sin nature. Jesus wasn't born in that manner - He didn't have a sin nature, though Satan greatly desired Him to have one. If Mary was a special creation, then maybe she may be in the same state as the Lord, but she was a fallen human as we are.
You are not the only one to not believe in the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost being ONE. Even though it is in Scripture. If that is your view.
So what about the soul of Jesus Christ and "who" He was/is? He spake what the Father wanted Him to speak though he is not the Father but the Son.
How can anyone say that God, our Father, did not have His Son with Him for any amount of time before Christ was born here of flesh? Is not anything possible with God?
Do you know of Philippians 2:6? Stating Christ was "in the form of God" and "thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
To Glory in the Son is to Glorify the Father.
I know there are different views to this and I don't think anyone here is going to change anyone else's mind. This is not a new topic.
Please don't take my post as harsh. Let us all stay focused on the Word of God and doing the Will of our Father. Which is to follow the way of Christ.
God Bless.
Yes it does. Just read John 1. One has to cherry pick and disregard most of Bible in order to draw such a conclusion. Specific verses that debunk this radical idea have been posted countless times here and elsewhere online. A 2 second search will show all the proof you need that Jesus is God- remember the verse the 3 are one? And the father and I are one? Only satan can be behind this effort of trying to discredit Jesus. Shame on you for spreading anti-Christian propaganda.
We know God said he was God and no one else many times , and He called Jesus his son .
Just 1 verse that is specifically saying Jesus is God !
There is none .
In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the Word was made flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (son) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
If you are born again, the Holy Spirit seals you; He is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. He indwells you. Comforts you. He is your Teacher. He anoints you to understand scripture. He is your Helper. He is gentle, and kind. He reveals Jesus to you.
Romans 1:20
John 3
You must be born again and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; to comprehend spiritual truth.
Father Purposes
Jesus speaks the Word
The Holy Spirit (action) accomplishes it
:)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
"the Word was God."
The Bible is 100% clear that "the Word was God"- do you agree? It says it in John 1:1 verbatim.
Who is the Word? If you keep reading it answers that in 100% clear language
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
The "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us (people).
Verse 15 says John (the Baptist) bore witness to Him. This narrows it down so much there is absolutely no one else this could possibly be but Jesus Christ. It would take serious mental gymnastics to make it mean anyone else, but Jesus Christ.
So, let's review. John 1:1 In the beginning was (Jesus Christ), and the (Jesus Christ) was with God, and the (Jesus Christ) was God.
All of this we get from John 1, the scripture I already provided which you seemed to have missed.
But there's much more than one verse that says Jesus is God. When it says God, it doesn't mean God the Father though, but God the Son. And Jesus is Lord and as well as other terms used in reverence. Just because people have a hard time comprehending the "three are one" doesn't mean they need to try to rewrite the Bible to mean something entirely different. It's already correct exactly as it says. That's part of being a Christian and having faith.
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in our image"
John 11:6-7 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
John 8:19 "if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Do you believe these Bible verses?
God the father of all things , is Spirit and is not a man or has flesh .
But Jesus his son has flesh . And is God manifest in the flesh , as the Son of God .
Jesus is OF GOD not God .
God is one being the father of all even Jesus . Jesus is the Son of God .
I hope this helps . So much more could be said ...
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