My friend's Baptist church teaches that God chooses our eternal destination (Calvinism) and that we do not have any choice in that matter. I have always believed that although God's Holy Spirit draws us to himself, that we have free will and must make a decision for Christ. Which is correct and how do you prove it in a discussion, including scripture verses to back it up?
We all have free will. God wants us to come to him! We can choose to hear the message or reject it. Thats free will!
Jesus Christ shows us how he dealt with free will, when he was tempted by the devil
Matthew 4:9
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Once we are saved, we still retain free will. When we are tempted by Satan (which will happen) will we respond like Jesus did?
Brother Leonard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
John 15:16 You have not chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you ...
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is GIVEN in the behalf of Christ, not ONLY TO BELIEVE on him, but also to suffer (in the flesh) for his (name) sake.
Ephesians 2:10 For we (the pot) are his (the potter's) workmanship, CREATED in Christ JESUS....
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (SPIRIT) that WORKETH IN US both TO WILL (his will becomes our will, only truth reveals this; otherwise, we incorrectly believe it is OUR FREE WILL) and TO DO his good pleasure.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom we also have obtained an INHERITANCE, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS after the council of HIS WILL.
Psalms 92:4 For thou, LORD, has made me glad through THY WORK: I will triumph in the WORKS of THY HANDS.
Psalms 92:5 O LORD, how great are THY WORKS! and thy thoughts are very deep.
Psalms 92:6 A brutish man (beast) knoweth not; neither doth a FOOL understand this.
We are ONLY the pot, pots are made to HOLD something. We were made to hold GOD (SPIRIT).
The SPIRIT does ALL THE WORK.
Colossians 1:27 ....this mystery.... CHRIST IN US (the pot) .....
Hello Leonard. What you've shared & what that Baptist Church has declared, I believe is dependent on whose viewpoint is considered; that of God or of man. That is, both that Baptist Church & Adam's comments are correct.
If you consider 1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ", we can clearly see that the Elect (i.e. God's chosen) are in that blessed position because God has selected some according to His Foreknowledge. In other words, all whom God has foreordained to be His elect, will be saved. Now this is in God's department, so to speak, & not ours.
We cannot concern ourselves with what God knows, as sinful man must be in a position to hear the Gospel, be convicted of sin, & respond. So, the one who does hear & believe, can be assumed to be part of the "elect according to God's Foreknowledge". That is, God knows beforehand who will respond to the call. Those who reject the Gospel are outside of grace & can never be saved. Our "choice in the matter" is still a conscious decision we make, but made in concert with the Holy Spirit's working. Without the Gospel & without the Holy Spirit = no salvation. Many try to come another way; they're imposters.
In hyper-calvinism, God's election is taken to an extreme; where it even becomes unnecessary to share the Gospel, as God's choosing requires no response from man. Does that Church evangelize? If it does, then it's clear that they expect the sorrowful sinner to repent, believe, & be saved. The sinner's 'choice' is already in God's Plan to save him. We could ask the opposite question: can a sorrowful sinner be rejected by God because he is not foreordained to be saved? John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." There's God's Promise of election & receiving a penitent sinner.
The elect,.. are not automatically saved ,.. they are the ones , that help make the evil ones Jesus' footstool, an they have a job to do ,.. an are the only ones able to commit the unpardonable sin ,..
Hello, if we have no free will, what is the purpose of evangelism? If we have no free will what is the purpose of the gospel? If we have no free will, what is the purpose of following Jesus? Did you have freewill to write your question or did something force you to? Did it force you onto this website and are you a prisoner? When you brush your teeth is a force making you do that?
That's an interesting concept that we have no freewill, but it just seems to fall apart quickly with pure logic. Adam and Eve were given an choice and disobeyed God and received a punishment. Today we are given choices of whether to do good or evil and then are judged after this life according to what we have done. Romans 2:6. If there was no free will, why would anyone be judged?
I believe a movement in our society is against Christianity and they like to claim that we're only clumps of cells and that morality is only relative and that we have no choice when we do wrong. It just seems like a lazy way to rationalize committing sin and defying God. The word says to fear God who can send you to hell. Matthew 10:28. Obviously, if there was zero free will or choice then we wouldn't be continually warned to obey, avoid sin, follow Jesus. No freewill would mean everything is a charade and is meaningless. Obviously that idea is a lie and we do have freewill. I choose to respond vs not respond to this question out of my own freewill and hope to help others and help spread truth to replace lies. God bless...
Brother adam, may christ in is grace us with his wisdom and his understanding.
romans 9:18 therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
romans 9:19 thou wilt say unto me, why doth he yet find fault (say we sin)? for who hath resisted his will?
no one has resisted his will; therefore, no one has free will.
philippians 2:13 for it is god (spirit) that worketh in you both to will (his will not your free will) and to do his good pleasure.
ephesians 1:11 in whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him, who worketh all things after the council of his will.
the father is at present calling out; only, the chosen (by his will; those to be priest and judges in the kingdom of god).
obadiah 1:21 and saviours (the elect) shall come upon mount zion to judge the mount of esau (at the resurrection of the dead), and the the kingdom shall be the lord's.
romans 8:19 for the earnest expectation of creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of god (the seed of christ, the elect, the chosen, the judges, the saviours).
romans 8:21 for the creature (creation) itself also shall be delivered (through judgement) from the bondage of corruption (flesh) into the liberty of the sons of god.
isaiah 26:9 ......for when thy judgements (at the resurrection of the dead) are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.
proverbs 16:6 by mercy and truth iniquity is purged ......
romans 11:31 even so have these (the vessels of dishonour that god hardened) also not believed, that through your mercy (at the judgement of the dead) they also obtain mercy.
god has a plan for all creation, god's will, will be done.
Jesus Christ shows us how he dealt with free will, when he was tempted by the devil
Matthew 4:9
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Once we are saved, we still retain free will. When we are tempted by Satan (which will happen) will we respond like Jesus did?
Let's hope we do!
God Bless
John 15:16 You have not chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you ...
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is GIVEN in the behalf of Christ, not ONLY TO BELIEVE on him, but also to suffer (in the flesh) for his (name) sake.
Ephesians 2:10 For we (the pot) are his (the potter's) workmanship, CREATED in Christ JESUS....
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (SPIRIT) that WORKETH IN US both TO WILL (his will becomes our will, only truth reveals this; otherwise, we incorrectly believe it is OUR FREE WILL) and TO DO his good pleasure.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom we also have obtained an INHERITANCE, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS after the council of HIS WILL.
Psalms 92:4 For thou, LORD, has made me glad through THY WORK: I will triumph in the WORKS of THY HANDS.
Psalms 92:5 O LORD, how great are THY WORKS! and thy thoughts are very deep.
Psalms 92:6 A brutish man (beast) knoweth not; neither doth a FOOL understand this.
We are ONLY the pot, pots are made to HOLD something. We were made to hold GOD (SPIRIT).
The SPIRIT does ALL THE WORK.
Colossians 1:27 ....this mystery.... CHRIST IN US (the pot) .....
If you consider 1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ", we can clearly see that the Elect (i.e. God's chosen) are in that blessed position because God has selected some according to His Foreknowledge. In other words, all whom God has foreordained to be His elect, will be saved. Now this is in God's department, so to speak, & not ours.
We cannot concern ourselves with what God knows, as sinful man must be in a position to hear the Gospel, be convicted of sin, & respond. So, the one who does hear & believe, can be assumed to be part of the "elect according to God's Foreknowledge". That is, God knows beforehand who will respond to the call. Those who reject the Gospel are outside of grace & can never be saved. Our "choice in the matter" is still a conscious decision we make, but made in concert with the Holy Spirit's working. Without the Gospel & without the Holy Spirit = no salvation. Many try to come another way; they're imposters.
In hyper-calvinism, God's election is taken to an extreme; where it even becomes unnecessary to share the Gospel, as God's choosing requires no response from man. Does that Church evangelize? If it does, then it's clear that they expect the sorrowful sinner to repent, believe, & be saved. The sinner's 'choice' is already in God's Plan to save him. We could ask the opposite question: can a sorrowful sinner be rejected by God because he is not foreordained to be saved? John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." There's God's Promise of election & receiving a penitent sinner.
peace
That's an interesting concept that we have no freewill, but it just seems to fall apart quickly with pure logic. Adam and Eve were given an choice and disobeyed God and received a punishment. Today we are given choices of whether to do good or evil and then are judged after this life according to what we have done. Romans 2:6. If there was no free will, why would anyone be judged?
I believe a movement in our society is against Christianity and they like to claim that we're only clumps of cells and that morality is only relative and that we have no choice when we do wrong. It just seems like a lazy way to rationalize committing sin and defying God. The word says to fear God who can send you to hell. Matthew 10:28. Obviously, if there was zero free will or choice then we wouldn't be continually warned to obey, avoid sin, follow Jesus. No freewill would mean everything is a charade and is meaningless. Obviously that idea is a lie and we do have freewill. I choose to respond vs not respond to this question out of my own freewill and hope to help others and help spread truth to replace lies. God bless...
This page might have more related verses.
Link
romans 9:18 therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
romans 9:19 thou wilt say unto me, why doth he yet find fault (say we sin)? for who hath resisted his will?
no one has resisted his will; therefore, no one has free will.
philippians 2:13 for it is god (spirit) that worketh in you both to will (his will not your free will) and to do his good pleasure.
ephesians 1:11 in whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him, who worketh all things after the council of his will.
the father is at present calling out; only, the chosen (by his will; those to be priest and judges in the kingdom of god).
obadiah 1:21 and saviours (the elect) shall come upon mount zion to judge the mount of esau (at the resurrection of the dead), and the the kingdom shall be the lord's.
romans 8:19 for the earnest expectation of creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of god (the seed of christ, the elect, the chosen, the judges, the saviours).
romans 8:21 for the creature (creation) itself also shall be delivered (through judgement) from the bondage of corruption (flesh) into the liberty of the sons of god.
isaiah 26:9 ......for when thy judgements (at the resurrection of the dead) are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.
proverbs 16:6 by mercy and truth iniquity is purged ......
romans 11:31 even so have these (the vessels of dishonour that god hardened) also not believed, that through your mercy (at the judgement of the dead) they also obtain mercy.
god has a plan for all creation, god's will, will be done.
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