Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Chris I'm sharing here because the account of supposedly the spirit of samuel being raised from the dead is actually demonic power in action. Saul at this time was not walking with God and chose to go to a witch chapter 28:6+7 to get advice from a prophet who was dead. The context of this starts at 1 Samuel 15 when Saul disobeyed the man of Gods orders and the end result was chapter 15 verse 26. Eventually Saul in chapter 31 verse 4 suicided thats how far out spiritually he got. Until Christ returns for the church and the just and unjust are raised the dead are dead.

Thank you Rick. I have also heard from others that which you have written, that the spirit that appeared before the witch was demonic.

The question then: can an impersonating demonic spirit say what he did in 1 Samuel 28:15-20? I have to admit my ignorance on how the spirit of a person wherever it may be located, can be called up to appear, present himself & speak. If this was an (evil) demonic spirit, are then the words it expressed also be considered truth, for it is evident, that an evil spirit cannot bring forth God's Message? Unless of course, that wasn't truth that was given & the whole scenario was a falsehood & should be altogether removed. Samuel however, does give us a clue: he said, "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up"? (v 15). It appears that Samuel's spirit was at rest at some place (in the OT economy), for he was brought up (up from where?). We need to consider the whole portion & come to our own understanding.

Chris To answer your question yes because anything the true God does the adversary counterfeits it and gives a com bination of truth and lies. What was conjured up by the witch of endor was a devil spirit known as a familiar spirit [necromancer]which means it knew what saul looked like and how he spoke and what he knew when he was living. Everything that the Counterfeit Samuel said was accurate including the part where Saul was going to die because the adversary knew Saul was dead. The dead are dead and will not resurrect until either the gathering together of the church return of Christ if born again or the resurrection of the just and unjust in the book of revelation. I know christians don't believe this stuff is real but that's what makes the adversary the father of lies. Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die you'll be as smart as God when God said thou shalt surely die and they lost there spiritual connection and eventually took last breath and returned to dust of the ground. Not one place in the bible are they called demons they are devils or messengers of Satan they are spirit beings only working for the enemy. Saul not only sought her advice but broke bread with her that's how checked out saul was mentally. Look at Deuteronomy 18:9-12, the Witch of Endor knew this! There's more to this field of understanding it is a significant part of our spiritual battle. Also seances where they say they talk to the deceased same trip different method, these were held at the white house by several presidents wives!

Thank you Rick. As I mentioned earlier, I am totally unfamiliar with such manifestations except what we read in the Word. In the case of the witch of Endor, the first clue I gained was the utter surprise of the witch when a spirit (of Samuel) appeared instead of what was the usual appearances of evil spirit manifestations ( 1 Samuel 28:12). Would a necromancer be shocked at an appearance of one that was not what she was familiar with? Maybe these spirits appear in a special way or form that wouldn't surprise or affright her, but it seems that this was not the case with Samuel.

And secondly, if it was an evil spirit, how did it know (or, prophesy) of an occurrence that was not known earlier ( 1 Samuel 28:19, "to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines")? I understand what you wrote, that even the devils can know this, when you wrote about the adversary the father of lies, "Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die", referring to Genesis 3:4. Yet, Satan there could only say that because God had already told Adam that. Could Satan prophesy of coming events, whether of Israel, the nations or the future of the world?

I do thank you for your explanation brother & it was certainly worth considering, but there are still a couple of these hurdles I need to get over to be fully persuaded - if you or someone can provide some Scripture to show that even Satan & his devils can foretell future events without those events already declared by God prophetically, I would be grateful.

Chris The reason the witch of endor showed shock is that the conjurer is also controlled spiritually that is part of the entire deception Samuel was dead and in Sauls desperation to hear from the true God he goes through great lengths to go to a medium. Also you said an evil spirit cannot bring forth Gods message, not true because the enemy knows what was already spoken by the true God and used it to verify the deception that Saul was actually talking to the spirit of Samuel when he was not. The enemy will always use part truth or use it out of context to complete his manipulation he always starts by getting someone to question what God says. The adversary has to use part truth in Genesis the true God thou shalt surely Die and they did Spiritually not physically but worse adam gave rulership of the world to the adversary when he disobeyed God. Luke 4:6 and 2 Corinthians 4:4. If interested in more info on subject matter look into The Book The challenging counterfeit.

Thank you brother for those comments. I will leave off the matter of appearance of the evil spirit impersonating Samuel & the witch's response, or else that not being the case, it depends how one reads & comprehends that passage. Your view does have merit & worthy of further examination in light of other Scriptures.

However, you wrote: "the enemy knows what was already spoken by the true God". That is true & even as we earlier referred to Genesis 3:1-4. But the point I raised was, can devils know what has NOT been earlier spoken by God? In other words, is the spirit of prophecy with both the Holy Spirit & evil spirits? As far as I know, the fact of Saul's & his son's death happening on the following day - the fact of the army of Israel losing the battle to the Philistines are all unknown facts (though possible in Saul's mind), that are apparently well known to this 'evil spirit' impersonating Samuel. That is what I cannot fathom - it's not just a case of truth mixed with lies - here we have a prophetical utterance of what is yet to happen, that was undeclared earlier by God to any prophet.

Chris Prophecy from the true God will always come to pass verbatim, prophecy from false prophets never does Jeremiah 23:21+22 so called prophecy from false prophets inspired by devil spirits will never come to pass verbatim. In 2 Kings 6 starting at verse 25 there was a great famine in samaria that in verse 31 the king blamed the man of God and wanted Him dead. Chapter 7 first two verses is a great example of revelation or future prophecy that happened verbatim from the true God.

Thanks brother. I agree with everything you've written & the appropriate Scriptures you've cited. Yet, my question remains up in the air, from the latter part of my previous comment.

You stated earlier that "The enemy will always use part truth or use it out of context to complete his manipulation". So, my question was, how can the enemy know that 'part truth' when that Truth hasn't been declared yet by God? And that Truth was that Saul & his sons would die on the morrow in battle & the host of Israel would fall into Philistine hands. This is not a question of true & false prophets/prophecy, but of the power of devils to know the future without it being declared.

Anyway brother, I'm fine if there is no clear answer from you, because I'm not sure how else I could reword the question. And all this is in line with who that Samuel was who appeared to the witch; if it was an impersonating devil, then he knew the Mind of God - if Samuel's spirit, then God gave this prophecy through him to deliver to Saul.

Just to add to conversation God did not give the message to samuel to tell Saul that was a manipulation of the adversary.

Thank you brother David. That being the case (that the message was the adversary's manipulation), then how did the adversary know the prophetical word before it was given by God? This was my question to Rick & I remained intrigued how this can happen. Have we seen such a thing happen anywhere in the Scriptures? Can God actually choose to use a devil to bring a prophetical word to another, like Saul?

Chris My apologies in sharing it was not The true God communicating through the spirit look at Chapter 28:6 proof that the lord was not answering, so what was going on was the familiar spirit just used what the true God had already told Saul because of saul's disobedience the only added point was that Saul was going to die which was not stated by the true God. Keep something in mind our enemy knows Gods Word verbatim only he uses it to His advantage. This is my closing God Bless

Thank you for that comment Rick. I too noted verse 6, but questions remain. Nevertheless, as you stated, this should the close of this matter between us.

Brother Chris, could the way God convinced Ahab also apply to the witch.

1 Kings 22:19-23

God always uses man to do his work or will.

Thank you brother Earl - that was a very good example that I had failed to recall. But would you not agree that the lying spirit that was controlling the mouth of those prophets was sent from the number that were gathered around God's Throne ( 1 Kings 22:19-23)? It appears so rather than an evil spirit appearing before God & putting up his hand to do the job. Then the question about the use of inducing a lie from one that is holy, or in another way, wilfully misleading the prophets to incorrectly proclaim God's Word. If this can happen, then it could well have been a being from Heaven that appeared to the witch in the form of Samuel, rather than an evil spirit. How do you understand what I've proposed?

Brother Earl God did not communicate with the witch scriptural proof 1 Samuel 28:6 and when Saul inquired of the lord the lord answered him not neither by dreams nor nor by urim nor by prophets.

Brother David, I said God uses man (kind) to do his work or will, is not the witch mankind.

Hi Earl Sorry wrong name my mistake.

Brother Earl ! Samuel 28:6 already answers the question just something to keep in mind John 10: 9+10 The theif steal kill destroy, the true God life and more abundantly total opposites. Movin on God Bless.

The Bible doesn't explain everything in full detail (by design, I believe), so I can only offer my personal opinion. This is not based on scripture, but just a few possibilities.

First I think sleep is a state of rest. I believe time passes quickly, possibibly instantaneous to the person. Just like it is when you fall asleep currently and wake up the next morning. Unless you're an insomniac most people don't watch the clock minute by minute for 8 hours. It goes by quickly. People in a coma are the same. When they wake they might be disoriented and not know how much time passed. So, I think between death and Jesus's return I believe we will be in this mode. The scripture says not everyone will sleep, because they haven't died yet when Jesus returns.

It seemed like your 2nd question was about physical location of your spirit/soul. First, I'm not sure what, if any, physical properties there are of a spirit or soul. I know it can inhabit a body, but when dead, I do not know. There is really no way to know. There are thousands of accounts of people having an 'out of body' experience when near death, but 'come back' into their body. I sort of experienced something like this when I had an accident. I also have met so many people who have had other 'spiritual encounters' like with ghosts and paranormal things, that I can't deny many of these accounts and believe it could be evidence of non-sleeping spirits/souls.

There's also a theory of a waiting/resting 'place' such 'paradise' or what some call purgatory. Jesus's statement to the man on the cross that he would be there in paradise is possible that was not heaven, but a VIP waiting area to await Jesus's return and judgment. It's possible that 'where' isn't the right question when talking about a spiritual dimension, as it might not be same as the physical world.

So, these are some ideas worth considering, assuming this was what you were asking.

Thanks brother Adam for your reply. I agree, "sleep is a state of rest" & being oblivious to everything through our nightly sleep, we can be thankful to the Lord that we still have life & breath - not so for those who've died (slept with no awakening & eventually reduced to dust). But your second paragraph statement seemed to imply that "between death & Jesus' return" we will still be 'altogether' (body, or what's left of it, & the spirit) waiting for the call.

Concerning man's spirit. My understanding that a spirit has no physical properties - that it is the essence of a person (the body being a covering for our functions & recognition). If "the spirit of man goeth upwards" & Jesus spoke of "fearing not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul", they seem to confirm that the immaterial part of us (the real 'us'), cannot be destroyed & remains accountable to the One Who gave it.

Those 'out of body' experiences, even the one you had after your accident, demonstrates that the spirit that gives life to the body, can return (& must return) for that body to resume functioning. But at death, the spirit is gone, unless, as Jesus brought back the spirit into people (e.g. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter). If the spirit goes, then to where? With ghosts & apparitions, I know nothing - maybe demonic activity or their impersonations. But then we have 1 Samuel 28:7-15, which can lead us to think of a departed soul in a resting place (OT economy). If for Samuel, then why not others who have departed? Should not our spirits leave the body & as in Paul's case have access to Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-4)? So "if the dead in Christ shall rise first", the spirit that once left it, must rejoin it. The question remains, where goes the spirit of man? If we maintain that the body sleeps, then we should also answer, where does his spirit reside? Is it still active & alert in another place or hovering over a body that is long gone? For the believer, I believe it's in Heaven.

In regards to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and the resurrection of the church of the Body of Christ whether asleep or alive, when a believer falls asleep His spirit goes back to God who gave it, Hence born again of Gods spirit. Man was originally Created in Gods image which is Spirit John 4:24 God Is Spirit. The soul life Genesis Chapter 2:7 God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul so when man takes his last breath that's the end of his soul then the body unto dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return. From what I've seen soul and spirit get some how made the same thing when they are not biblically. When we are born we are body and soul without God and without hope, then when we get born again we have our spiritual connection with God which which was lost in Genesis and bought back by Jesus Christ making it available to become sons and daughters of God. When Christ returns for His body the Church we will be resurrected in perfect bodies not like what we have now. Incredible future to look forward to.

Thank you Rick. I generally agree with what you've written, except for the reference to "born again". "when a believer falls asleep His spirit goes back to God who gave it, Hence born again of Gods spirit." My understanding is that re-birth must begin on Earth, i.e. after repentance & faith in Jesus, God's Spirit enters the forgiven sinner, baptizes him into Christ & cohabits with man's spirit, renewing & energizing him. If re-birth didn't take place now, then we will remain in continual fear & state of anguish for sins, not having the Holy Spirit's Work of confirming our acceptability & new relationship with God ( 2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Corinthians 3:16; & many more) - all showing that the Spirit's residence is evidence of a re-birth, and this happens now & not when our spirits return to God. That is my understanding - unless I have misunderstood you.

Chris Correction to comment rebirth begins on earth the rest is as stated.