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Very well stated. This is the same point I was trying to make not too long ago, but I like the way you put it. The Lord knows His sheep. He knows all those who presently belong to Him. It would not make sense at all for one of His sheep to stand before Him one day and hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you." If He knows me now, how could He say that He never knew me later?
Have you ever been in a face to face discussion with someone who believes that salvation can be lost? I have. If you ever get into one of those discussions, try asking them if they think they will or can lose theirs. Whoa, now it becomes personal. You can sort of sense how tense they become when you question them about their own personal salvation.
I've been in those conversations. I've had people tell me that you can lose your salvation, but then when you make it personal for them losing theirs, they will say things like "No, not me, because I love the Lord too much for that to ever happen, and I will always follow Him, so I'm never going to lose mine! When did salvation become conditional based on our own human works? Some are quick to agree with Ephesians 2:8-9, but then they turn around and misapply it by believing human works plays a part in their salvation. We are saved by God's grace and mercy alone, not by our own works of righteousness.
Paul speaks prior to this verse of the liberty we are called to: "but do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh (and excuse to sin), but in love serve one another. for all the law is fulfilled in one word (love), even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Paul says in Galatians 3:13 that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us" He did not redeem us from the law, because the law is good. Paul says that: the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ (showing us our need for salvation because we could not be justified by keeping the law, because, unequivocally, no one but Christ kept all of the law), But after faith as come, we are no longer under a tutor." (being guided to God by the law). Galatians 3:24
Paul taught those who are redeemed and justified by faith, are not to take our freedom in Christ to continue to sin without concern. We are to take our freedom in Christ to use the Power of the Holy spirit to live God's way, doing what is good and shows the love of Christ to others.
I am would like to comment on your statement you can loose your salvation when you fall from grace.
Very well stated. This is the same point I was trying to make not too long ago, but I like the way you put it. The Lord knows His sheep. He knows all those who presently belong to Him. (This I will agree with its the next part i disagree with)
It would not make sense at all for one of His sheep to stand before Him one day and hear the words "Depart from me, I never knew you." If He knows me now, how could He say that He never knew me later?
Jesus said ( John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand). But you yourself can take yourself out of the Fathers hand. By Grace we are saved, or have salvation. We can loose our salvation by sinning and when you sin Grace is no longer with you so God does not know who you are. It is through Grace that the Father and the son Jesus knows who you are. With out Grace all would be lost and headed for a devils hell. That is the reason we should repent daily for our sins because you don't really know if you committed any sins that day unless the Holy Ghost quickens for spirit at the time you sinned. If so than it is your responsibility to repent then.
God be Blessed
stay prayed up and ready to go up
cowboy
salvation
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
a source or means of being saved from harm, ruin, or loss.
deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
walk by the spirit 4hrs. a day that would be an accomplishment because that's saying you were at the right place at the right time where God wanted you to be and you said the right words with the right expression, with right compassion and the right tone that God wants and you did what he said to do at that moment the way He wanted it done. Now that is
walking with no sin, and if you can actually do that my hats off to you. That's why our sin nature was paid for by our Brother Jesus Christ to pay for the sins we will commit unintentionally after were born again. In the Gospel of John 1:29 it says behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, why doesn't it say sins because it was a complete
one time payment for past present and future for those who believe. Last but not least this is one of my favorite verses
Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling and to present faultless before the presents of His Glory with exceeding joy,[ It was great joy for Jesus christ to pay for us to present us spiritually with no fault unbelievable but true] So bottom line you choose what you want to believe but i'm not living as if a make a false move I'm toast
God Bless
I am very secure in my salvation. Why? Because I'm trusting in the one who saved me and not in myself to keep myself saved. Thanks for sharing John 10:29. Yes, Jesus did say that no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Then you immediately put a "but" in there and say that we can take ourselves from the Father's hand. If that were the case, wouldn't Jesus have said that? I know of no place in scripture that says I can pluck myself out of the Father's hand.
It is interesting that you say that when we sin, we lose our salvation and fall from grace and during that time we are not known by Him. Those aren't your exact words but that's the message I'm getting.
If we lose our salvation when we sin, I would think our salvation would be lost quite frequently, wouldn't you agree? Are you saying we can lose salvation, get it back, lose it again, and get it back? That's what would happen if we were to lose our salvation every time we sin.
Yes, God knows His sheep. He will always know His sheep. If we sin, He still knows us and He deals with us. Sometimes His chastisement can be very harsh.
My friend, if you are insecure about your salvation, I am sorry to hear that. I am very secure in mine. I've been given eternal life. God's Spirit has sealed my spirit. I cannot break that seal.
In John 10:28, Jesus says And I give unto them eternal life; Number one, that is pretty secure. How long is eternal? Forever! And they shall never perish. How long is never? Neither shall any man pluck them or snatch them out of my hand. There's no "but." No man would include myself!
If you believe that you can't lose your salvation - what is Apostle Paul saying here:
Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
I reads to me, that if we willfully continue to sin there is "no more sacrifice for sins" and we could lose our salvation!
Paul is telling us that we need to work out our own salvation "with fear and trembling". He is asking us to take action! Do we just disregard this scripture?
Philippians 2:12
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Jesus tells us throughout the NT that we need to refrain from sin. Why would Jesus tell us to stop sinning if we can continue to sin and still receive salvation? Jesus and Apostle Paul agree that we must become obedient, and stop sinning, if we want to receive salvation. Tons of scripture stating this..
Should we be so confident in our salvation - that we disregard much of the scripture stating what "we need to be a part" of our own salvation. I will agree with Paul, and approach my salvation with fear and trembling, and trust him and Jesus, when they say we must repent from sin!
God Bless.
Later in this passage, Paul says: Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God (believing the gospel, you may receive the promise (salvation.)
For we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:35-37; 39
Paul is urging his congregants to persist in the faith, as some were known to have apostasized among the churches in those times.
Here's my understanding of Philippians 2:12. Paul says "Wherefore, my beloved, as you always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but also in my absence,"
So he praises them. He says you don't obey just when I'm there, but when I'm not there you obey. Here's what I want you to do. Here's the command, the salvation process.
And here's the literal translation from the Greek text: Be continually working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You see, it's a process. But wait a minute now. I thought that we didn't have to work for our salvation? Well, to put it in perspective, I have to take the very next verse. I can't just isolate verse 12 and put meaning to it without taking verse 13.
Paul says in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The word "works in you" is the word energizing. For it is God who is continually energizing in you both to will, and to energize of His good pleasure whatever He thinks best!
It's His energy. Whenever He wants to energize my spirit for His Spirit to work in me, it's all according to His good pleasure. It doesn't have anything to do with my good pleasure. I'm just a vessel. So I'm to be continually involved in having my salvation worked out because it's God who is working it out.
As for your other question, being confident in salvation does not mean that I should disregard any part of scripture. I remain confident in my salvation because I am trusting in the one who has saved me, the one who has promised to never leave me, and the one who is keeping me saved by His power alone. I can't keep myself saved. And no, I do not believe I can go out and sin all I want to because my salvation is permanent. My role is to submit and surrender to Christ. The only thing I had to contribute to my salvation was the sin to which I needed to be saved from. Jesus Christ has saved me. He has given me eternal life. If that can be lost, then it is not eternal!
Thanks for your well written response.
I'm in agreement with you in that we are dependent on Jesus for Salvation. He will be our Judge.
Where I believe we have a difference in opinion, is after we have been Born Again, God still gives us a free will to do good or bad. Herein lies the the problem. If we are not fearful, as Paul states, we can slip back into our sinful worldly ways and based on much scripture, I believe that we can actually lose our salvation - because I believe we do not receive it until our final judgement.
Here is Jesus telling us what he will be expecting from us to receive our salvation and enter into the City.
Revelation 22:12-14
I do agree with you that God will work in us Through his Holy Spirit, but since we still have a free will, and the devil will continue to try his best to tempt us, (as the devil tempted Jesus) we will need to continue to strive, to become obedient, and work out our salvation as Paul stated.
In other words, we should work toward our own salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul described. This mindset can only help to humble us and hopefully keep us on track! I really think that Paul meant what he said regarding this recommendation to us. (The Church)
God Bless.
I'm a little confused here. You said "I believe that we can actually lose our salvation - because I believe we do not receive it until our final judgement."
If you don't receive salvation until final judgment, how can you say we can lose our salvation? How can you lose something you don't presently have?
You mention being born again? For me it means that I have been born of God's Spirit. My salvation is present tense, not something I receive after death and judgement.
You say that the problem lies where Paul says that if we are not fearful, we can slip back into our sinful worldly ways and lose our salvation. I'm assuming you are referring to Philippians 2:12 where Paul says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?
But Paul does not say anything about losing salvation. Why would Paul say to work out our own salvation if we're not saved now? If we're not saved now, then there's no salvation to work out!
I agree that we still have free will after being born again. We have free will to be disobedient to the Lord. But if we choose to be disobedient, He's going to deal with us. When Satan tempts you to be disobedient to the Lord, what are you going to do? Jonah exercised his free will when God told him to go to Ninevah. That didn't work out to well for Jonah.
Do you honestly believe that in Revelation 22:12-14 that "Jesus is telling us what He will be expecting from us to receive our salvation and enter into the City?" We should already know what He expects. Why would He tell us at that time what He expects from us? I already know what He expects from me. He expects obedience and faithfulness. These verses are referring to the time where we as believers will stand at the judgement seat of Christ. This judgement is not to determine salvation, but what reward/s we will receive. We're saved now. We as believers will all pass through the fire, and whatever is not of Christ will burn, but we ourselves will be saved ( 1 Corinthians 3:11-17).
1 Corinthians 3:14-15. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I have yet to have someone who says you can loose your salvation tell me what the scripture means to them.
This is not the fire of Hell. This will be a judgment called the Bema seat of Christ. It's not the White Throne Judgement, but every Christian will stand before the Bema seat of Christ. And it's going to be interesting because everyone's work is going to be tested in fire literally!
And the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. The word "try" is the word DOKIMADZO where you pass the metals through the fire and it burns off the dross. And so every man's work is going to be tested.
Paul says that there is no other foundation other than Christ. So everybody that has received Christ, you can't lay another foundation. You only have one. But what we need to watch for is what we build on that foundation.
I like to picture myself standing there at the pearly gates, and Peter's there of course. I always picture the golden arches like at McDonald's, but I'm sure that won't be there. But I get hooked up to this thing that pulls me through like a car wash pulls a car through the carwash, but instead of water, it is fire. And when I come out the other end, that's what I'm going to be throughout eternity.
Everything I did in my own human effort apart from the persuasion/faith of God's Spirit is going to burn. Everything that is of Christ will remain and I will receive my reward/s. So we have to be careful how we're building. What's not of Christ will burn, but we ourselves will be saved.
God Bless!!!
That is very clear.
Just as Jesus stedfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem ( Luke 9:51), and from that time forward, nothing could get Him off track, so are we to run the race set before us with our eyes fixed on Jesus. The word stedfastly means a fixed established position. This is probably where Paul got his ministry. In Philippians, when he strives for the high calling in Christ Jesus, he has got one thing in mind, one direction in where he heads, and that is the mission for which Christ has sent him. Just as Jesus had a fixed established position towards Jerusalem where nothing was going to stop Him, we are to also set our face toward Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith ( Hebrews 12:2).
building, I know I have some weird analogies.
I think that's a great analogy. I'm looking at three separate commands in Ephesians Chapter 6. The first command is in verse Ephesians 6:10 which says "be strong in the Lord." The second command is in Ephesians 6:11 which says "put on the whole armor of God." This is written in aorist tense which means do it one time. So we are to put on the whole armor of God once.
The purpose: that we may be able to "stand" against the wiles of the devil." The word wiles is the word "METHODIA" which means methods or schemes. And notice that all of this is to cause us to stand. We're not to fight, but to stand. Why? Because our position is in Christ at the right hand of the throne of God in the spirit realm. What do we have to fight Satan for? He's already been defeated.
And then the third command in verse 13 says "Wherefore take unto you (Aorist tense), the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand (Resist), in the evil day, and having done all (That is, after everything has been worked out), to stand. In other words, once the dust settles, you're still standing. So we are to stand, not fight.
So your analogy makes a lot of sense. We're standing still, stuck in a block of concrete. Nothing is going to move us. We've already put on the whole armor of God. That armor never comes off. We're not to fight, but stand. That's what we are commanded to do.
Thanks for sharing that!
Thank you. This is a good word for me today!
He's already done all the work our Job or labor is in the mind Just believe your Complete in Christ. We will never
comprehend the magnitude of what we have been given, but its a lot of joy to walk in.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the book of life was cast into the lake of FIRE.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall WORSHIP him, whose names ARE NOT WRITTEN in the book of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN (even the ones cast into the lake of fire), specially those ( the elect) that believe.
I believe that fire in Revelation 20:15. is one I'm going to stay away from.
Christ but the enemy has tricked even believers to be so to speak to have a sense of sin conscienceness
when God says No.
In the New Man live in the spirit Romans 8 declare or make up your mind reckon your old man
dead in Gods eyes he does not exist. This is the freedom in Christ Jesus because what you think about is what you become.
If I think about making a wrong move or sin I'm afraid I'll go to hell there is no metal freedom to walk in newness of Life. That's like telling a child go play in a jungle gym but be careful or you'll die.
KIng David committed adultery and murder and God still called Him a
after His own Heart even back then God knows the flesh means nothing He was always looking at Davids heart. It doesn't
change with us, in our heart we know what we want to do but our natural mind fights our inner man. Lets live and love in
the freedom in Christ Jesus. God Bless
You stated, "If you don't receive salvation until final judgment, how can you say we can lose our salvation?" I should have said "expected salvation", my apologies, I believe we have an "expectation of salvation" after being Born Again.
I believe you seem to be saying you have guaranteed salvation now! Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you on this. I said that when we are born again we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling as expressed by apostle Paul and by becoming obedient to God including following his commandments, while following Christ's examples for living a good productive Christian life.
It is my belief that we can lose "our expected salvation" come judgement day if Jesus makes this determination per his scripture. Please Reread: Revelation 22:12-14 Jesus will be the Judge regarding everyones salvation.
Does Jesus make the final call? I believe he does!
God Bless.
Good post and conversation here.
It is true that we are saved when we believe in Jesus. This salvation is an ongoing salvation that will reach its fulfillment at the final judgement. Are we in heaven seeing Jesus face to face the moment we believe? No, So there is both a present and a future tense to our salvation. Like you said, in this life we are advancing towards that future fulfillment, when all is said and done for this life, in the fulfillment of the ages. We have something to look forward to, something to hope for, tat we do not possess quite yet, but have the Spirit as a guarantee (down payment) of what is to come. This knowledge of a future hope causes us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling in this life. Lord, teach us to order our days aright.
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I appreciate reading this conversation. It is helpful.
I find that your various reply's to this thread have been very on target, thoughtful, and most of all encouraging.
As Christ followers we are asked to also carry our own crosses. Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles encourage us to do so in so much of their scripture.
Matthew 16:24-26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
We need to be participators, not spectators, in our salvation!
God Bless.
Thank you for the complimentary words. I appreciate that. I try to be as led by the Spirit as I can in posting, knowing the power of words, especially those that are "heard" by people we do not know and are not conversing face to face.
Participators, like Abraham. He was fulfilling God's command to sacrifice is Son Isaac when God stopped him. If God ad not stopped him when He did, the knife would have plunged into Isaac, killing him. Abraham participated without hesitation and his obedience was counted to him as faith and his faith was counted to him as a righteousness.
May we be like Abraham. He did not have all of the answers and full knowledge of God, but He believed God and knew tat by obeying God he was walking in faith.
gonna work hard to do this b.y operating the faith I.E. walking by the spirit God Will work in You both to will and do of His good Pleasure because you have let go 5 senses and let God work. This is my understanding. God bless
Sorry for the late reply. I was away and just saw the questions you sent. I'll respond to the 2 verses you sent. First of all, Hebrews 10:26. This is one of the verses that is used by those who believe salvation can be lost. But I do not see anything there that tells me salvation can be lost. In all the verses in Hebrews chapter 10, beginning from verse 1, the writer, whoever that might be, is speaking to Hebrew people. He is showing them the superiority of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ over the sacrificial system of Judaism.
After the writer has presented his case that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is far superior than their Jewish way of sacrificing, In Hebrews 10:26, the writer is telling these Hebrew people that if they turn away and go back to into Judaism, they are not going to find any sacrifice there that is going to take care of their sin problem if they reject Christ and His sacrifice. (There is no other sacrifice for sin).
A person who has "received the knowledge of the truth" does not mean that person is saved. Hebrews 6:4 also speaks about an "enlightened" person. People also use this verse to prove you can lose your salvation. But again, an enlightened person does not mean a saved person. A person can be enlightened to the truth, they can receive the knowledge of the truth, but if that person does not surrender their life to Jesus Christ, that knowledge and enlightenment means nothing.
These people were being enlightened to the truth about Christ. They received the knowledge. But instead of surrendering to Christ, they were turning away and going back into Judaism. It was much easier for them to do that than to surrender their life to Christ. Surrendering to Christ meant severe persecution, so they were turning away. No salvation there to be lost because they turned away without surrendering to Christ.
I'm running out of space. I'll respond to the other verse you mention ( Philippians 2:12) and your other questions in a second post.
AMAN Vary well stated for Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If Paul die daily what makes us so special are we better than Paul do we not need to die daily also. To die daily is to repent daily the old sinful man must die daily so the new man in Christ Jesus can live. If you do not repent daily than sin will build up in your live. And the old sinful man will take in your life again. Sometimes we sin without knowing it because of that old Adam's nature. We do things and not realizing that we have sinned. Therefore, we as Christians must repent are die daily.
God Bless
Stay prayed up and ready to go up
cowboy
God Bless.
It can mean that daily we are crucified with Christ, and daily we rise to life inn Christ. It could mean that daily we crucify the sinful nature and allow the life of Christ to reign in our life.
I, too, believe it is a daily commitment to die to sin and live for Christ. This allows to walk by the Spirit of God and not by the fleshly, sinful nature. Whatever you feed, grows stronger, as some say.
in the faith of Christ.
Remember the Gift is spirit NOT FLESH and for the believer we are no longer looked at via the flesh we are Gods Children Period by rebirth spiritually. So Paul states for a believer not to take advantage of the gift of grace,
but if you do not heed if you sew by flesh that is what you reap the flesh ,if you sew by spirit the things of the spirit.
In everything God did for the believer us he never broke freedom of will. The individual has the work on renewing the mind which when born again we begin to put on the mind of Christ we don't get that immediately that is working out your salvation with respect and awe. Some will by the adversaries deception decide that
they by the senses can do sense knowledge stuff and be rewarded not going to happen.
Why because what you sew is what you reap and there is no respect of persons. That's why some will
will reap 30-40-100-fold and some not much at all but God being just we get rewarded for what we did correctly by the word and the rest gets burned up but that doesn't make us not His children. Also to walk perfectly by the spirit means that we are at the doing exactly what God wants done in the exact way God wants it done speaking exactly what God wants ud to speak and performing the miraculous when we are told to the working ability of christ in us. i'd like to do that perfectly for 1 hour let alone twenty four seven. God Bless
I appreciate your input. We are on the same page regarding discontinuing willful sin.
I was using my message in response to Jesse, and to also to agree with Cowboy, that I do believe (based on scripture) we can lose salvation by willful sinning.
Many Christians today believe they can continue to live their worldly lives, continue to sin, and still be assured of salvation. This is a very popular belief, and the scriptures are clear - that we must repent, and become obedient. So to continue with this train of thought, We have to change, and participate in our own salvation! Paul states in various scripture - in addition to receiving from Christ - we must also struggle and take action on our part! Yes, I also agree with you that we must strive to be sin free, and when we fall we must seek forgiveness, from God through his son Jesus.
God Bless.
I agree that believers are to endeavor to live godly lives, saying no to sin, and yes to wat is good and right according to what as been revealed in God's moral law. Jesus said that those who truly love Him will obey His commandments (written in the Law given to Moses). He summed these up by saying Loving God with all of our hearts, soul, mind, and body and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Those who claim to be in Christ and continue to live sinful, worldly lives sow that they do not love Jesus. They may say it is o.k. because they are under grace not Law. But Scripture plainly says:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness (sin) and worldly lusts (worldly desires), we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every deed (sin) and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."
Titus:11-14
Many churches today do not exhort their members to stop sinning (that blaspheme the Word of God Titus 2:5) instead live obedient lives (that glorify God). Sin is downplayed so much in this generation that most people do not think it is as deadly as it is in all forms. We should want to do what is of life, not what is of death, because God has sown us mercy and given us grace in Jesus Christ.
In Acts 2:38 the word says repent get a different mind set then get born again and receive remission of sins
forgiven and forgotten by believing Romans 10:9+10. Now the work in this is to continue in the good works of walking in faith not that were saved by works two totally different things. Now when we sin not on purpose that is where we confess
the sin we currently have done 1 John 6-10 and were back in harmony the state of being in fellowship but at no time were we not his son. Notice where we can be tricked if we lie and say we don't sin dishonest in our walk.
This is where the enemy tricks many christians out of there spiritual walk and inheritance.
There is a major different biblically between repent remission and forgiveness first one our job second one Gods job third one out job and Gods already done Job in Christ jesus.
Now this is the age of Grace not saying a believer has a license to do whatever he wants that is a total abuse of our freedom in christ his desire should be to do what God wants, unfortunately like you shared there are people
that think it is ok to do whatever they want no its not, but that is the trick of the enemy the believer will loose His love joy peace of mind and go back to carnal ways but His spirit is perfect two totally different things. God Bless Just sharing Bro.
Thank you so much for pointing out the difference between the flesh and the spirit. Our flesh will never submit to the things of the Lord. But Jesus did not save our flesh, He saved our soul/our spirit. It's our spirit which Christ has sealed with His Spirit that has been made perfect in Christ Jesus, and He has promised to never leave us, nor forsake us!
Again, thank you for everything you share!
I understand your point. I just thought that the term "flesh" should be clarified.