I accidently left off some information from my previous post. I believe that the sons of God were bad spirits that were being banished to earther after an accounting with God. These evil spirits then commandeered souls and spirits at birth of new-borns, thus giving spirits the physical attributes needed to procreate.
Interestingly, the first verse in Genesis 6 discusses an birth explosion: And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
The second verse then mentions the sons of God. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. This seems to support the idea that evil spirits took on natural attributes.
Just because they are called sons of God does not make them good. Jesus, Son of God was good. Satan, also a son of God, was evil.
A final note. The sons of God mentioned in the OT are different from the sons of God in the NT. In the NT, we are the sons and children of God. We, natural men, have received the Holy Ghost. Romans 9:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Here, Paul is talking about us, as natural men. This notion is support later in Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
If I may, what people call demons are devils, unclean spirits, principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places, some spirits with no physical bodies, some angels that have bodies that cannot possess humans but can control. Evil spirits are on this earth that can influence and also possess humans.
We see while Jesus was here the first time, He cast them out of many people, also he gave power for the disciples to do the same Matthew 10:1. We also see Paul doing the same, one in Acts 16:18. They are still on this earth, many do not believe they're real but believe me they are real.
The bible is not clear how or why these beings are on the earth. There are writings outside of the bible that talk about these but how true are they. The sons of God you speak of are angels, not unembodied spirits. Job 1:6Job 2:1 and Job 38:7. We know some angels left their first estate and sinned that are locked in chains of darkness until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4Jude 1:6.
These angels are not the devils or spirits that are roaming this earth, they are locked in the bottomless pit. We see they have a king in Revelation 9 whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Strange is his name has the same meaning as the son of perdition, that means destruction/destroyer.
Through scripture, it says angels can take on human form, they ate and drank and even wrestled with Jacob. We are even warned when entertaining strangers they may be an angel. The sons of God you speak of in Genesis are those angels who left their first estate and mated with human women that produced the giants (Nephilim and Rephaim or Rephaites) The name of these people means "terrible ones", they were before the flood and after Genesis 6:4 tells us they were then and after the flood and when the sons of God mated with women it produced giants.
Good afternoon David! Hope all is well. Thank you for your comment. I agree with you 100% that spirits cannot procreate. But I am not suggesting that demons are procreating as spirits. I am suggesting that the sons of God are devils that were banished from heaven to earth. There they took on natural bodies.
Do you agree with me that demons can possess a natural body? If you do, then demons would have natural attributes.
One attribute would be physical strength. Consider Matthew 8:28 - And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Another physical attribute of a demon possessing physical attributes would be procreation. Perhaps you have insight into who the sons of God were. I am more than willing to change my understanding based on Scripture.
BTW, I also agree with you on your creation statement. Have a terrific day, David! What a great Biblical name!
Tony Spirit is not passed at birth, when any human is born he is body and soul, the only exception to this that
I'm aware of is John the baptist, even Jesus Christ was not born with Spirit, John 1:32. When an individual gets
born again he receives that which he didn't have before holy spirit eternal life Gods Gift. Now some believe the
spirit and soul are the same.
Spirit life is eternal where as when you take your last breath that's the end of sou life , Genesis 2:7 God formed man, gave him shape then breathed into his nostrils breath of life and he became a living Soul
it is believed by some since God is Spirit that is what he breathed in man. In Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own
Image and In the Gospel of John 4:24 Jesus Christ said God Is Spirit. So man in the beginning was body soul and spirit
when man sinned in Genesis He lost his Most important part His Spiritual connection with God which was bought back by Jesus Christ.
I do not agree that Jesus was not born wit the spirit. I believe Jesus was fully human and fully God at conception. He always possessed the Spirit. In reference to John 1:32, at Jesus' baptism the Father and Spirit manifested with Him to affirm to those around Him that He was the Messiah, not to fill Him with the Spirit. If your interpretation is correct, then the it would also be true that the He became the Son of the Father at that time. But He was always the Son of the Father, Who said at His baptism, This IS my only begotten Son, in Whom I am well pleased. Jesus was already His Son. It does not say He became His Son. Same is true of the Spirit. Jesus was One in Unity with the and Spirit from all eternity, therefore as fully God and fully man, He had the Spirit since conception.
Sister GiGi, I agree with Rick, Christ was born a man like unto us.
He received the Spirit at the baptism by John. That's why he told John it was of necessity to be baptised by him.
The Spirit, as the likeness of a dove, was visible evidence of this baptism of Spirit.
In Isaiah we have the prophecy;
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isaiah 11:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom, and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord;
Isaiah 11:3 And make him of QUICK UNDERSTANDING of the fear of the Lord ....
Jesus was GIVEN this as a MAN at his baptism of spirit, just as we as MEN are GIVEN THE SAME. He was made to have this, by the Father, not born with it.
Jesus was not fully man and fully God. He is a BODY FILLED with GOD. He said of myself I can do nothing. If he were fully God he could of him self done All things, but he said I do ALL things through my Father.
I read your post and cannot agree with what you stated about our Lord, Jesus. I hold to the long held orthodox view that Jesus was wholly God and wholly man in united in one person. This is the understanding of His nature presented by the church in the first 3 centuries of existence as it addressed various other views about Jesus-Arianism, Nestorianism, and others (which we determined to be heretical).
I hold this view because I believe the Scriptures support this view over the other views people propose about our Lord. Thank you for sharing. We just disagree on this point, and I believe it is a very crucial point. This is why I speak up about it.
I do not believe that Jesus was only a man and that He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. I do not believe that He was only a man that was filled with God at His baptism. These views have been denounced as heresies throughout the centuries. To believe that Jesus was only human, then such belief denies that He was divine, as well from birth. Denying the divinity of Jesus denies that He pre-existed for all of eternity in the Trinitarian Godhead for all eternity and never had a beginning as God the Son. If Jesus died as only a human, His sacrifice could only reconcile man to man, not man to God. But, the church has affirmed that Jesus was fully human and fully divine in one nature (without mixing the natures to become a third type of nature). It is this human/divine nature that made his sacrifice efficacious for mankind by being a perfectly sinless man and perfectly and equally divine Son of God, (as the Father and the Spirit are perfectly and equally divine) He was able to satisfy what God required of man to be in right relationship with God (which no other human can be) and being divine, He is able to reconcile us to God and raise up us up to have union with God, as He promised at the Last Supper as He prayed. John 17:20-23. Christian orthodox teaching has stated that our Savior is equally human and divine because that is what was necessary for mankind to be fully redeemed to what God willed for us to become in Him.
Earl, I know that we will agree to disagree on this, but I do think that it is vital for believers to know correct doctrine, and I contend for the orthodox teachings of the church because it is important to refute heretical ideas. We cannot both be correct in this. If you are willing, you may want to study the various heresies rejected by the church over the centuries concerning the nature of Jesus Christ as to what the heretics taught about this topic, and what the church pointed out as the error in the heretics teaching.
Sister GiGi. I don't have to study those doctrines, I was taught and raised to believe those doctrines, and did believe them from the time I was about 15 years old until I was about 68 years old. God cause me through circumstances he brought about to do nothing but study his word form morning to night, seven days a week, for five and a half years. I no longer believe man has free will, I no longer believe in a trinity, I believe there is a Father and a Son(s), I no longer believe that most of mankind will go to hell; but, believe Jesus was sent by the Father to save the world and the son will not fail in that commission of his Father. You are right, our beliefs will determine whether we are the ones judging the world with Christ, or the ones being judged by Christ and his elect.
Thank you for sharing this information. It will help me to understand your point of view better. I do think that these tenets that you have adopted are at variance with most Christian belief.
From your post, I gather that you are older than I am by 10 or more years. You may be closer to entering eternity than I am, but we both are looking forward to what the Lord has in store for us when we leave this life and receive the fullness of our salvation. God Bless.
Sister GiGi, they are complete opposites of the doctrines of man. Does the doctrines of the brick and mortar church teach the saints are going to judge the world. No, they teach when you die you either go to heaven or to hell. You, yourself in a new location. You are not going to be yourself, but a new creation in Christ Jesus. Man does not want to lose his own identity ( Matthew 16:25) and become the IMAGE of CHRIST. No greater love has a man than to die for his brother, Christ died for you, you have to die for Christ. This the first death ( Revelation 14:13).
Earl, Bless your heart. It seems that you may have an angst against "brick and mortar" churches. That is sad to me, as soo many people have been helped to come to know the gospel and turned to Jesus through people who attend such places. God is using these places to build His church family just like He is similarly using those who are not affiliated with a particular church congregation. I have had seasons in my life where I was part of a particular church fellowship and seasons when I have not been so. In either situation, God meets me were I am and grows me to be more and more like our Lord, Jesus.
I think that it is important to stay humble enough to know that in both situations, we are not the final arbiter of what is sound doctrine/beliefs. It is the Holy Spirit who is this arbiter, and He has been working within the Church since Jesus first began the Church when our Lord called the disciples and began preaching to the people. The Holy Spirit as given to the Church to confirm the Truth that Jesus taught, to help the disciples to remember what Jesus taught them ( a lot of which was not written down in the gospels) and teach the disciples all that was necessary for the work of the Church to evangelize and exist as Body of Christ on earth after Jesus ascended to the Father (as Jesus stated He was going back to the Father (two different Persons) and sending the Holy Spirit (the 3rd Person).
Sister GiGi, I have nothing against brick and mortar churches, God has them there to preach His Word. I am not saying that they don't preach the gospel of salvation, they do, what they don't do is bring the saved to the maturity of the Word. I have family members and friends that have gone to church 50 years and are no more mature in the word than when they first believed. I have numerous close relatives and friends that are pastors, but have no knowledge of God's word other than I'm saved and going to heaven. The gospel is, there is going to be a kingdom on earth. God is calling and choosing those that will rule and reign with them. How many churches teach this. There is going to be billions of people raise from the dead that have never heard one word about Christ. God is preparing a priesthood to bring the gospel to those billions, to judge and govern those people, God's kingdom. The only time you reside in heaven is the period of time God is gathering his elect (thousand years, not literally one thousand), when the elect have been gathered everything else will happen on earth. How can one be a priest in God's kingdom if you don't believe what he says. ( Philippians 1:29)( 1 Peter 1:21)
Rick, I did not mean to say that you have said that Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism. I am sorry if you took it that way. What I meant was that if one can say that Jesus did not have the Spirit before His baptism, one could also say that He became the Son of God at that time, too. It would be logical to think so. But I do not believe either statement to be true.
And, you are right, we each are free to believe our own way. I respect that.
Interestingly, the first verse in Genesis 6 discusses an birth explosion: And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
The second verse then mentions the sons of God. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. This seems to support the idea that evil spirits took on natural attributes.
Just because they are called sons of God does not make them good. Jesus, Son of God was good. Satan, also a son of God, was evil.
A final note. The sons of God mentioned in the OT are different from the sons of God in the NT. In the NT, we are the sons and children of God. We, natural men, have received the Holy Ghost. Romans 9:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Here, Paul is talking about us, as natural men. This notion is support later in Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
If I may, what people call demons are devils, unclean spirits, principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places, some spirits with no physical bodies, some angels that have bodies that cannot possess humans but can control. Evil spirits are on this earth that can influence and also possess humans.
We see while Jesus was here the first time, He cast them out of many people, also he gave power for the disciples to do the same Matthew 10:1. We also see Paul doing the same, one in Acts 16:18. They are still on this earth, many do not believe they're real but believe me they are real.
The bible is not clear how or why these beings are on the earth. There are writings outside of the bible that talk about these but how true are they. The sons of God you speak of are angels, not unembodied spirits. Job 1:6 Job 2:1 and Job 38:7. We know some angels left their first estate and sinned that are locked in chains of darkness until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6.
These angels are not the devils or spirits that are roaming this earth, they are locked in the bottomless pit. We see they have a king in Revelation 9 whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Strange is his name has the same meaning as the son of perdition, that means destruction/destroyer.
Through scripture, it says angels can take on human form, they ate and drank and even wrestled with Jacob. We are even warned when entertaining strangers they may be an angel. The sons of God you speak of in Genesis are those angels who left their first estate and mated with human women that produced the giants (Nephilim and Rephaim or Rephaites) The name of these people means "terrible ones", they were before the flood and after Genesis 6:4 tells us they were then and after the flood and when the sons of God mated with women it produced giants.
God bless,
RLW
but notsexually impregnate. now God who is spirit created the sperm in mary to conceive our saviour that's because
God can Create because to create is to do or bring something into existence from nothing. In Genesis God
spoke into being creation by His Word.
Do you agree with me that demons can possess a natural body? If you do, then demons would have natural attributes.
One attribute would be physical strength. Consider Matthew 8:28 - And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Another physical attribute of a demon possessing physical attributes would be procreation. Perhaps you have insight into who the sons of God were. I am more than willing to change my understanding based on Scripture.
BTW, I also agree with you on your creation statement. Have a terrific day, David! What a great Biblical name!
at its will, notice I said devils because that's what scripture calls them. Also there is a major difference between
possession and influence, this is a field all its own that very few people believe or understand. One example I know
of possession was a person I think in China could change the form of metal by thought, that was spiritual power.
Any person that displays a so called ability that breaks natural law walking on coals of fire, so called mental telepathy
clairvoyance , clairaudience, these things are forms of influence or possession.
All of the above can be delivered and set free by the gospel.
1. Sons of God and Satan presented themselves to God because they were evil.
2. God banished them to earth where at least some "possessed" the natural bodies of men
3. Having commandeered these bodies at birth (when the soul & spirit are given), they assumed all the natural attributes of men.
4. That is why the sons of God (now devils masquerading as men) found the women attractive and married them.
5. The result was children with human traits but evil spirits.
6. God saw what happened and lamenting, wanted to destroy man.
7. Except for Noah.
I believe that I can back all this up with several Biblical verses. Is my analysis accurate? Where am I wrong? Is this plausible? Thanks!
means or trying to prove what I think but what is God saying, what does He mean, after all its His Word and its Truth.
to discuss the positives of believing Gods Word and deliverance through Jesus Christ, I don't see the profitability
spiritually of continuing this area of conversation. If someone else chooses to that's there privilege, so that being
said I'm on to something else. I bid you Philippians 4:8+9 God Bless
I'm aware of is John the baptist, even Jesus Christ was not born with Spirit, John 1:32. When an individual gets
born again he receives that which he didn't have before holy spirit eternal life Gods Gift. Now some believe the
spirit and soul are the same.
Spirit life is eternal where as when you take your last breath that's the end of sou life , Genesis 2:7 God formed man, gave him shape then breathed into his nostrils breath of life and he became a living Soul
it is believed by some since God is Spirit that is what he breathed in man. In Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own
Image and In the Gospel of John 4:24 Jesus Christ said God Is Spirit. So man in the beginning was body soul and spirit
when man sinned in Genesis He lost his Most important part His Spiritual connection with God which was bought back by Jesus Christ.
I do not agree that Jesus was not born wit the spirit. I believe Jesus was fully human and fully God at conception. He always possessed the Spirit. In reference to John 1:32, at Jesus' baptism the Father and Spirit manifested with Him to affirm to those around Him that He was the Messiah, not to fill Him with the Spirit. If your interpretation is correct, then the it would also be true that the He became the Son of the Father at that time. But He was always the Son of the Father, Who said at His baptism, This IS my only begotten Son, in Whom I am well pleased. Jesus was already His Son. It does not say He became His Son. Same is true of the Spirit. Jesus was One in Unity with the and Spirit from all eternity, therefore as fully God and fully man, He had the Spirit since conception.
God the father god the Holy Spirit
One and the same
John chapter 1 verse 1 and verse 2
In the beginning was the word the word was with god and the word was god
2. The same was in the with god
3.all things that were made by him
And without him was not anything made that was made
4 in him was life and the life was light of men
Which means god the father god the son and god the Holy Ghost
Which are the same had no beginning and had no end
Jesus obviously did have the spirit
And Jesus had no beginning and no end
Bless you
He received the Spirit at the baptism by John. That's why he told John it was of necessity to be baptised by him.
The Spirit, as the likeness of a dove, was visible evidence of this baptism of Spirit.
In Isaiah we have the prophecy;
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isaiah 11:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom, and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord;
Isaiah 11:3 And make him of QUICK UNDERSTANDING of the fear of the Lord ....
Jesus was GIVEN this as a MAN at his baptism of spirit, just as we as MEN are GIVEN THE SAME. He was made to have this, by the Father, not born with it.
Jesus was not fully man and fully God. He is a BODY FILLED with GOD. He said of myself I can do nothing. If he were fully God he could of him self done All things, but he said I do ALL things through my Father.
I read your post and cannot agree with what you stated about our Lord, Jesus. I hold to the long held orthodox view that Jesus was wholly God and wholly man in united in one person. This is the understanding of His nature presented by the church in the first 3 centuries of existence as it addressed various other views about Jesus-Arianism, Nestorianism, and others (which we determined to be heretical).
I hold this view because I believe the Scriptures support this view over the other views people propose about our Lord. Thank you for sharing. We just disagree on this point, and I believe it is a very crucial point. This is why I speak up about it.
All of this is God's plan, he has set brother against brother and sister against sister. This teaches us, the fruits of the spirit.
Our thanks to the all knowing God.
I do not believe that Jesus was only a man and that He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. I do not believe that He was only a man that was filled with God at His baptism. These views have been denounced as heresies throughout the centuries. To believe that Jesus was only human, then such belief denies that He was divine, as well from birth. Denying the divinity of Jesus denies that He pre-existed for all of eternity in the Trinitarian Godhead for all eternity and never had a beginning as God the Son. If Jesus died as only a human, His sacrifice could only reconcile man to man, not man to God. But, the church has affirmed that Jesus was fully human and fully divine in one nature (without mixing the natures to become a third type of nature). It is this human/divine nature that made his sacrifice efficacious for mankind by being a perfectly sinless man and perfectly and equally divine Son of God, (as the Father and the Spirit are perfectly and equally divine) He was able to satisfy what God required of man to be in right relationship with God (which no other human can be) and being divine, He is able to reconcile us to God and raise up us up to have union with God, as He promised at the Last Supper as He prayed. John 17:20-23. Christian orthodox teaching has stated that our Savior is equally human and divine because that is what was necessary for mankind to be fully redeemed to what God willed for us to become in Him.
Earl, I know that we will agree to disagree on this, but I do think that it is vital for believers to know correct doctrine, and I contend for the orthodox teachings of the church because it is important to refute heretical ideas. We cannot both be correct in this. If you are willing, you may want to study the various heresies rejected by the church over the centuries concerning the nature of Jesus Christ as to what the heretics taught about this topic, and what the church pointed out as the error in the heretics teaching.
Blessings, always.
Thank you for sharing this information. It will help me to understand your point of view better. I do think that these tenets that you have adopted are at variance with most Christian belief.
From your post, I gather that you are older than I am by 10 or more years. You may be closer to entering eternity than I am, but we both are looking forward to what the Lord has in store for us when we leave this life and receive the fullness of our salvation. God Bless.
John 17:21-24
I think that it is important to stay humble enough to know that in both situations, we are not the final arbiter of what is sound doctrine/beliefs. It is the Holy Spirit who is this arbiter, and He has been working within the Church since Jesus first began the Church when our Lord called the disciples and began preaching to the people. The Holy Spirit as given to the Church to confirm the Truth that Jesus taught, to help the disciples to remember what Jesus taught them ( a lot of which was not written down in the gospels) and teach the disciples all that was necessary for the work of the Church to evangelize and exist as Body of Christ on earth after Jesus ascended to the Father (as Jesus stated He was going back to the Father (two different Persons) and sending the Holy Spirit (the 3rd Person).
I share something then people make a statement that I didn't but that's o.k. So as to not argue I'm moving on.
God Bless
And, you are right, we each are free to believe our own way. I respect that.
so its your privilege to not agree.
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