Bible Discussion Thread

Wherein the kjv bible does it refer to you don't have to be baptized to be saved. Or that baptism doesn't save you?

Under the link you used to get in this room; is a link that's titled: Become A Believer

It explains everything, and why.

Myself, baptism was really personal and I did it just for me. I wanted to truly bury my old sinful life with Jesus, and rise up free of guilt forever.

Jesus, that we no longer live by the flesh, but by the Spirit, who's goal is to change us bit by bit to be like Jesus, who always did the will of the Father.

Rick, I know we will continue to disagree on this matter, and I am ok with that. We have both had a lot to say on this matter and I feel that we have both presented good points. I don't over think these things anymore than the apostle Paul did or many of the early church fathers who thought deeply and thoroughly on such topics to be able to give a reasoned account. That is what I have done. It may satisfy some and others, not. I just pray that the Spirit will use our conversations to produce understanding in both of us in such a way to allow us to apply the truth of this matter.

Gigi Are you still interested on the Temple or Tabernacle subject matter.

yes, please. Thank you for remembering.

Rick, There have been "laws" from God in all ages since Adam and Eve. Commands and laws are spoken interchangeably to refer to the Law of Moses and so therefore, any command of God is a "law".

God commanded Adam and Even to not eat from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. This was a one time "law".

God gave Noah commands after the flood. These were "laws" for all mankind. God gave Abraham a command to sacrifice Abraham. This was a one time "law". Abraham knew He was to obey God, and he did and his obedience demonstrated his faith in God.

God wrote the 10 commandments with His own "finger" for Moses and these were "laws" for all time.

Jesus gave stated that to be saved one needs to believe and be baptized, and commanded His disciples to baptize all who believer. This was a "law" for all of the church for all time. He told His disciples that those who love Him will keep His commands, (again laws).



I do not despise the words "laws" or "commands". Unbelievers and evil doers do. Nor do I despise obeying the moral commands of God. Unbelievers and evil doers do. Grace did not change our obligation to obey God in the commands He gave us, especially those given by Jesus in the gospels. Nor did it change how God deals with mankind, as you imply. What changed is that grace is given to those God chooses to save. This grace regenerates us, creates faith in us to believe, cleanses us from our sins, and allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, having been made holy. This grace sanctifies us and empowers us to say "no" to ungodliness and "yes" to what is what God says is the right thing to do. ( Titus 2:11-14) ( Titus 3:4-7) (1 Thess.4:1-2) ( Gal. 6:7-10) (Rom.7:22-25) Without grace, we would all remain enemies of God. But grace brings us God' redemption in

Beware of anyone in this thread trying to minimize the importance of baptism or try to make it mean something other than what the Bible says. Motives are in question. Verses like this are very clear to understand: John 3:5

This site has a page about it with many verses: Link

God bless...

Thanks So Much Precious 'S Spencer' for your ENCOURAGING Reply

"Amen Grace,

Well spoken!

God bless."

Looking forward to seeing you in God's Great GloryLand! God Bless you RICHLY!!

Hi Grace.

You are so welcome,

I've been doing a lot of traveling lately and haven't been able to engage lately, I will be home tomorrow and would be engaging on this important topic.

God bless you.

Kristina, We on this forum went deep into tis topic a few weeks ago. Perhaps you can go to the Discussion Topics page and look under "baptism" to find our recent discussion. Blessings to you.

Hello Kristianna The whole key to the understanding the word baptised or baptism, here's a good example. In

Acts 2:38 the word for baptized everyone of you and ye shall receive Holy Ghost, the word baptized means to

or set apart also it is either external or internal. When a person is born again it is internal spiritually it is by

Gods Gift Holy Spirit internal it is in us. Now the translators used the same word alo for water that's why I said depending

on context external or internal. In John 3:16 both are used first one I'm baptising you external for consecration or

preparation, second one Jesus Christ shall future baptise with pneuma Hagion or holy spirit which will burn up

the chaff because its internal. So in Regards to spiritual baptism I'll let you decide what the Word of God says.

Then You have Ephesians 4:4 remember Jesus Christ gave Paul how and what and where and when and to whom

concerning His Church the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace. Make up your own mind on It Is Written when

all scripture concerning subject matter are considered and understood. P.S. I didn't cover all of them due to

tht' a lot too cover.

Hi Kristianna The only requirement in the Age of Grace which you and I live in to be born again of Gods

Spirit is to Confess Your sin and Confess with Mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God

Hath raised Him from the dead and thou shalt absolute tense be saved, for with the heart man believeth unto

righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It Is Written!

Hello, as per your question the Bible doesn't say you "don't have to" be baptized. It says you do, but of course we have freewill to choose who we want to follow in this life- and whether to do good or evil.

Here is Jesus's command to His followers: John 3:5

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So, the real question is: if someone claims to be a Jesus follower (a Christian), but doesn't follow what Jesus says, how serious are they about following Jesus? And do they really love Jesus? John 14:15.

Would a genuine Christ follower always be looking to do the bare minimum they assume is required to "be saved" -or- give everything in their life to Christ, perhaps beyond what they assume is required?

Matthew 7:22 - this seems to be an unpopular reality for some believers who are uncomfortable with Jesus's words that many will assume they're "saved" but will not be. Given this scenario already predicted by Jesus, and given that someone desires to go to heaven, is it safer to obey Jesus or look for ways to disobey Him?

God bless...

Adam If water baptism is necessary or required to be spiritually born again , explain Acts 1:5 where it says For John truly baptized with water but meaning in contrast ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I'm not advocating don't be baptized in water, but its not a requirement for spiritual baptism,

I wa born again many year ago and was never water baptised.

Hi Rick,

My interpretation of Acts 1:5 is that John only prepared the way for Jesus's ministry, so once Jesus came I believe baptism had a greater significance. So, my interpretation is before Jesus: water only. After Jesus: water + Holy Spirit.

"but its not a requirement for spiritual baptism, I was born again many year ago and was never water baptised."

When I read John 3:5 and Acts 2:38 I know exactly what it says and feel if it wasn't important it would not have been said. I think if baptism wasn't a necessary or important step of obedience, then Jesus wouldn't have baptized people and He clearly would have said to not get baptized. But He clearly said to get baptized. I don't think satan is deceiving me into believing I need to be MORE obedient to Jesus than I truly need to be, but the opposite would seem more likely.

Given that its a commandment from Jesus, it seems like an easy decision to me. And lets say you're right and I'm wrong, then there's no downside to getting baptized and honoring Jesus, is there? But if my interpretation of John 3:5 and Acts 2:38 is right and yours is wrong then you have an enormous downside to deliberately disobeying Jesus, do you not?

God bless...

Well said, Adam, I agree. Baptism in water is commanded by Jesus. That is enough for me, who claims to believe in Him to believe Him when he says to be water baptized. Like Rick, I have known many people who have been believers for a long time and never were water baptized. I don't know how to explain that from a Scriptural standpoint, since I know of no Scripture that says not to be baptized in water, nor that that this act of faith is superseded by grace. But many differ from us. I can live with that, since I myself, obeyed Christ's command.

Gigi This is really quite simple believing is required no matter what biblically Paul even explained it in the Grace administration to which we live also it is shown in Luke 3:16 the contrast the first under the law of Johns Ministry

led to the second one the day of Pentecost after Jesus Christ completed His Ministry and made it available to

born again of Holy Spirit By God gift made available by His Son Romans 10: 9+10. Basically if someone wants to

believe it takes both so be it, myself and many many others I know were never water baptized and received so

who am I to argue with Gods Grace. That's why I've never seen just water baptism do it but I have seen both or

just Confession of sin and Romans 10:9+10. I'm just sharing believe what you will but we operate in the grace

administration and that's is the walk in Love above the Law which is what Christ redeemed us from. Moving on!

Brother I appreciate your honesty about being born again spiritually without being baptized in water which

show God Grace in our day and time and actually always because God always honors His Word and our Hearts

if we are doing our best for His Highest. To me if you changed your mind and felt the needs for water baptism

good for you but that neither added or took away from what you or I were given spiritually. I had a friend that

received the Gift of Holy spirit on His pier and when father showed me that it was where he was most peaceful

then we prayed and he received. Later on a couple of days he ask if He needs to be water baptized, I asked

would you feel better answer was yes so he did it and felt better. The interesting point for Him his words The first

one I felt a lot more all over inside, I said O.K. So I just do My best to let God do the Work and listen not Judge

besides I have no time for the second one its not my job. L.O.L.

Adam Something else to consider and this is not satan or any such junk, there is a difference between

honest heart for scripture and deceptive intent to Get someone to deny Gods Word. If you choose not to

discuss because you think it maybe deceptive I'll stop, but then nothing is learned on either end.

Hi Rick,

I agree that quarrelling should be avoided and its best to avoid any "I'm right/you're wrong" discussions, however, there is only one truth. If something is publicly posted that is not truth and might lead someone else to stumble there is an obligation for believers to gently share the truth, in attempt to reverse the damage done.

So, you wrote: "its not a requirement for spiritual baptism."

But Jesus said: " John 3:5, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"water and of the Spirit"

Not just Spirit.

"cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

And God's Word in Acts 2:38 says: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

"be baptized"

But who, surely not me?

"every one of you"

But there's more scripture: Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 10:48 - And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 8:36-39 - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

So, if I'm honest with myself, even if I didn't want to be baptized or was taught it wasn't necessary, or was embarrassed, or had any other reasons for not wanting to obey, it would be a very tough sell to read all these verses saying to be baptized and instead claim that we should NOT be baptized.

Adam This is not a sell or a persuasion the explanation is the word in the greek language for baptism af baptize

where it ts in context because it make a difference in understanding , that being said if you choose what you got

O.K. in Gods Eyes if someone for them need both to be born again o.k. if they Choose to confess Romans 10:9+10

and believe in their heart O.K. Luke 3:16 Gives the difference between the two, in the Book of Acts there were

both people that did both and one. One is external water the other is internal spiritual. I'm not here to judge just

to enhance by explanation if someone disagrees that's their choice. I was taught at one time to get born again I

had to confess all my sins, that statement in itself is not logical because no one can remember all their sins up

until the time their born again. Then I saw the Word of God says confess the Saviour from Sin which is in your heart

thank God for forgiveness and mean it, then endeavor not to sin and when you do ask forgiveness and receive it.

Then theirs christians that think they can take advantage of that because its grace. WRONG you don't believe God

almighty knows whether its in your heart or just B.S. that's being deceived! Anyway just some heart.

Hi Rick,

I don't believe that the Greek word for baptize was supposed to mean something else, so someone can feel off the hook from being baptized. I don't believe that just because someone found another Greek word they prefer that people are somehow free of Jesus's commands to be baptized. Jesus talked about water baptism, baptized people, and His disciples were then called to baptize in water to fulfill the command. It says it plenty of times in the Bible.

The Bible says to repent and confess:

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" Luke 5:32

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

When God says something and man says something different, I believe God's Word over man's word. The gospel isn't complicated and doesn't take Greek or Hebrew scholars to understand but a desire to seek and follow God. I've noticed on many occasions when someone finds something they aren't comfortable with in the Bible, they go to the Hebrew/Greek and try to make it mean something other than what it means. But its already translated and already means what it says.

God bless...

Adam I believe and know both scriptures well. God bless onro have a great evening moving on to the Return.

Adam I am not changing anything I only looked up what the original language stated, not diluting or

adding, that being said again its up to the individual to work the word and believe as an individual that's

all. Moving on bro. Besides the end Goal I each one win one!

Adam I never view sharing any of the scripture as I'm right or there wrong my priority is to better

understand to bless others and vise versa. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law which he did then in the completion

of that it opened up on Pentecost the age of Grace. You couldn't even get born again when Jesus was on earth because

that's what he came to make available. Even Jesus Christ had to be baptised to fulfill all righteousness which

was the law. Don't think it will offend me continuing the conversation again brother I never argue scripture it to

shared and intent is to get a greater understanding my position.

Kristiannna,

There is no place in the bible that tells us that we don't have to be baptized, conversely, there is much scripture that tells us that we do need to be baptized.

In addition to believing in Jesus to be saved, we are told by Jesus to be baptized.

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Except we be born of water and the Spirit (Holy Spirit) we can not enter into the kingdom of God! This is a very powerful and easy to understand message.

Apostle Peter also confirms baptism below, so we must repent, be baptized, and we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

In summary, the bible scripture clearly states what we must do regarding regarding baptism. If anyone says different, they are lying, and telling you to ignore this and other powerful scripture!

God Bless.

Bro Dan In the Gospel of John 3:5 the reference to being born of water is is regards to human birth of the

fetus in water which has nothing to do with water baptism. This i just explaining the context not to argue.

Bro Rick,

I've heard this (fetus) false teaching of bible scripture previously.

In John 3:5 Jesus is referring to being Born Again! He is not referring to our original birth, but our "second birth" in Christ! If we are to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven we must be "Born Again." Water and Spirit is certainly referring to baptism and being "Born Again".

If it was as you say:" being born of water is regards to human birth of the fetus in water"

Jesus would only have had to say you must be born of the Spirit. Because all mankind was born as a fetus. But Jesus specifically instructs us to be baptized. Jesus undertook baptism to show us what he really meant! He instructed the apostles to perform baptism. To disregard baptism is to disregard much bible scripture, and ignore Jesus.

There are many false teachings being spread around out there, and the one that you don't need to be baptized is in the top of the list.

Read your bible and believe.

Thank you Bro Dan. I don't think any of us who think this way are wanting to simply encourage someone to go through a ritual or be baptized "just in case". We just truly want to show forth the teaching of Scripture and encourage others to consider the command of Christ. If one can ignore this command, can we ignore His command to "love one another?"

To me, the fact that Jesus was baptized tells us a lot. I don't remember reading in the OT Law where baptism in water was proscribed. If someone can find it, that would help me. I kind of think it may have been a teaching of the Talmud.

But if it is in the OT Law, then Jesus did it to fulfill the Law. Also, since He never did anything without direction from the Father, He did it to obey the Father, who then spoke audibly afterwards as the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, saying He was well-pleased. And thirdly, Jesus never did anything that was not purposeful to set an example or to highlight a teaching of His. So, here Jesus submitted to baptism as an example for us to submit to God and His will and to emphasize His teachings commanding His disciples to baptize new believers in water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirt, showing us that all three persons of the Trinity are present at a person's water baptism. Jesus wasn't surprised that the Father and Spirit showed up so humans could witness. He knew this would happen so it can be shown what happens in water baptism and show the approval of the Trinity to the obedient action.

If someone continues to hold to not being baptized in water, my question is really, what is the real reason for you to not obey Jesus' command? Is it a out of rejection of "ritual" or that one does not find it necessary since one already is saved? Jesus instituted several rituals and he demonstrated them to instruct us: water baptism, praying to the Father (The Lord's Prayer), and The Lord's Supper. Should we not do these. New believers were baptized, why not old ones?

Gigi Bless ya but you are way over thinking this and that's your right to do so. Moving on

Bro Dan, Glad you "get" what I am trying to say here.

Gigi You state to show forth all scripture what about Ephesians 4:4-6 this is just showing scripture, also Paul

wrote receive ye the spirit by the works of the Law or Hearing of faith Romans 10:9+10. That being said on to



the next subject. By the way you yourself said you know of many people never water baptised but you Know are

saved. God Bless and good Night.

Rick, How is obeying Jesus' command a "work of the law"? Is obeying Jesus by Loving Him above all else a "work of the law" since it is in the 10 commandments? Is not having graven idols to worship a "work of the law"? Is not taking the Lord's name in vain a "work of the "? Is honoring your parents a "work of the law"? Is refraining from stealing a "work of the law? Or obeying any of the other of the 10 commandments? Are we to disobey these commands since we are under grace? Paul unequivocally said "no" in Romans 6:1

By espousing that it is fine to disobey Jesus command to be baptized, then, logically, you are de facto saying that it is ok for us to murder, commit adultery, idolatry, lie, steal, covet, because we are under grace, (since all of these "laws" are Jesus' laws also if we believe that He pre-existed in the Godhead and therefore, is the Lawgiver).

I don't honestly think that any Christian would recommend people living a lifestyle in disobedience to the 10 commandments. All of these commands are contained in Jesus' phrase that all of the Law was summed up in the two commandments: to Love God and others, as are any commandments He gave in addition to the OT commands. To obey Jesus' command to be baptized is to obey the first command Jesus said as Loving God. It is an act of loving obedience. I don't see how anyone would say that not being water baptized is a loving act of obedience to Jesus.

Although I understand that people are free to believe how they wish. I just do not ever want to espouse or support any view that will lead others to disobey God.

The loving thing to do towards God and other believers is to follow Jesus' command and example, period.

Amen.

Some talk about obeying Jesus as being "bad" and disobeying is "good." Those opposites sound awfully familiar and it definitely doesn't come from God.

Isaiah 5:20.

More than ever we must be on guard and have the armor of God on to protect against false teachings. Satan is working overtime to try to deceive people, even Christians. Matthew 10:16

Yep, Adam, It amazing me how people fail to take into account the full counsel of God on matters, but focus just on their take on a certain point of view they wish to maintain while ignoring so much else that is said in Scripture. We all can fall into this mindset easily. I try to look at a topic from many angles from Scripture so that I am "seeing" things from a good standpoint. I am well aware of Paul's teaching about justification through faith and not through the law and what is meant by the Law of Grace. We live in a society now that knows no shame for the disobedient ways they live, yet even these people know that Christians are to live lives of obedience to God. When I talk to unbelievers, their objection to receiving the gospel is rarely that they do not believe in God, nor a lack of awareness of their own sin. Their objection is more often stated that it is because Christians are such hypocrites. Therefore, if we hope to be convincing in our witness of the gospel we ought to also be convincing about the changed way we live, not rebellious against God or His moral commands, but utilizing this wonderful grace and the influence of the indwelling Spirit to live holy and godly lives in this wicked generation.

Amen Sister GiGi.

Thank you for another wonderful and loving summation on how we "as Christ followers" should love Jesus and keep HIS Commandments, as he specifically asked us to do.

We have the best teacher, and the perfect role model in Jesus, and he lovingly instructed his disciples and others during his life - on how we should live our lives. Jesus gave us a wonderful roadmap in the scriptures, but many will rebel, and confuse themselves and others, with complicating the scriptures into something that is unrecognizable.

As Christ followers we need to keep a healthy "fear of God" to keep us on the right roadmap!

God Bless.

Yes, Bro Dan, If we walk by the Spirit we will not satisfy the desires of the flesh (Gal.5:16-18), which means we will obey what God has told us to do or avoid what he as prohibited, and especially not have a prideful, rebelliousness that resists the Spirit wo calls us to be obedient, godly, holy children of God.

Gigi The only other point you and others and I know of people who are definitely born again but never

were water baptized are they or I all wrong or is it God didn't change on His love through Christ but brought

to where they were originally no laws just walk by the Spirit to the best of your ability and honestly that I've

given you. That being said again I moving on. P.S. If you want info on the Temple let me know. God Bless

Gigi I don't understand the question since in the Gospel of Mathew the Greatest Law is answered,

Thou Shalt Love the lord thy God with all thy Heart with all thy soul and with all thy mind, and the second

is to love thy neighbor as thyself. These were being done already by Abraham before the Law Isaac before the

law and Noah before the law and in Gods eyes they were righteous before the written law. The law of Moses

was given to the adopted children of Israel so they would not do what the unbelieving or pagan nations were

doing that they were surrounded by. God new what they were doing and was trying to keep his adopted children

out of the soup. I never said Not To Do the Ten Commandments. When were born again of Gods Spirit and

in obedience to Gods word we are to walk in a Higher spiritual plain the law of agapeo Gods love Which Jesus Christ

displayed above and beyond the ten commandments. Don't forget there were over 400 laws given, thats why Jesus

Christ spiritually summed them up in Mathew. If a christian endeavors to walk by the spirit which no one does 24/7

he's walking the law of Love. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the Day of pentecost started an entire different time

period in the way God deals with man in the Age of Grace. The Apostle Paul writes about it all over the place and

these instructions were given to Him by Jesus Christ directly so how can what he was Given Be Wrong. This is not

an argument by any stretch its understanding the difference between the law period and the Age of Grace which

many don't understand I being one for awhile. I'm not going to deny what I know the scriptures are saying.

The Apostle Paul in Galatians 1:11-12 he's telling the Galatians that he got born again but they were tricked into not believing anymore that what he taught them was Directly From Jesus Christ that settles it I didn't write the book

I'm just endeavoring to believe it.

Bro. Dan. If I might clarify according to my reading of that passage in John chapter 3. The point of this discussion between Nicodemus & Jesus was for clarification of Nicodemus' misunderstanding of 'being born again'. So Jesus explains to him that just as a human has to be born into the world (which is what Nicodemus could only grasp), so, to enter God's Kingdom, a human has to also be born (i.e. re-born) spiritually, as it's not possible for natural unrevived man to enter that Kingdom.

Jesus then goes on to refer in verse 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." I see the strong connection here between what Jesus said earlier about being born "of water & of the Spirit": to be born of water (flesh) remains only flesh; but to be born of the Spirit is no longer life in the flesh, but now in the Spirit. So, we can either be governed by our flesh (the natural man, serving our desires), or by the Spirit (the renewed, revived spiritual man, serving God).

I realize there can be other views on this, but I certainly don't believe that Jesus was speaking of water baptism when He spoke of being "born of water" since water baptism never affords such Grace to contribute to a new birth. If it did, then we enter into a further difficulty that re-birth is not only of God, but also of man's contribution to it. The only requirement is to believe & receive Christ, God's Gift, or else it's no longer a Gift. Water baptism has always been a normal logical act of identification with Jesus soon after believing & receiving the Holy Spirit. And being obedient to be baptized ought to be the responsibility of the evangelist/witnessor & not of the new believer. But all that's changed now, as so much else in the Church.