Bible Discussion Thread

My church says I don't need to be baptized because I have been born of water through my mother. Is there any scripture to confirm that? Or do I absolutely need to be baptized even if I am a real Christian in my life. Very close & personal relationship with my lord and savior Jesus Christ?

Precious friends, no one is "content/ignoring tons of scripture" that commands we be 'water baptized' Today, Under God's GRACE. We have "studied" Much, Prayerfully And Carefully, And Have Found ONLY "ONE Baptism" for Today, and it is NOT "water"! Link

We Must Be Very Careful not "to blaspheme The Holy Spirit" = (as the Jews did) "attributing The 'Work Of The Holy Spirit' unto men/Satan, Instead Of To God." Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:28-30 Correct?

Some 'May Be confused' so, Other "Confirming" studies are here

Solving water Confusion:

Part 1 Link

Part 2 Link

Israel's 'water' for the priesthood = various washings:

Part 1 Link

Part 2 Link

All are invited to study "ALL The Holy Scriptures" on this Important Issue - Be Encouraged!

There are some posting in this thread that are content ignoring tons of bible scripture as long as their preconceived salvation narrative of faith+grace and not much else is preached. Many are comfortable ignoring and telling others to ignore Christs (numerous) commands to be baptized in water and follow the commandments, among other things.

Christ tells us to pick up our crosses and follow him!

Today, many twist Pauls words to reflect their misguided salvation message. Paul does not cancel the words spoken by Jesus/God. If you believe that the words of Jesus should be ignored please read this scripture below:

Matthew 24:35

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow!

Please read your bible and Believe!

Precious April, I pray to The LORD That HIS Doctrine, Under HIS GRACE, Today, will help Encourage you in the 'confusion' of water baptism:

God's ONE Baptism: Link

Well said Grace!!

Great Link!!

God bless.

Guarantee I will continue to search for information on any scripture I don't understand. Thats just who I am. I'm Gods daughter forever. I appreciate everyone giving me scripture to search out & learn more about my lord & savior Jesus Christ & his word! Thank you.

Precious Love Of Jesus, you are Very Welcome. Please Be Very 'Enriched' Growing In HIS Wonderful And Amazing GRACE!

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified! ( 2 Timothy 2:15 Romans 16:25 Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL "to SEE, today?)

Thanks Adam. It isn't hard to obey Jesus in His command to be water baptized. I feel that if e commanded it, then it is his will. Like Jesus, we should have a heart and mind set on doing the will of God.

April,

In John 3:5, Jesus told Nicodemus that except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That might be the verse your church is referring to. It looks like they are telling you that the "born of water" represents the water bag that breaks right before a woman gives birth. So the water would represent physical birth and the spirit would represent spiritual birth. That I believe is incorrect.

Some believe that "born of water" means Christian water baptism. That also is incorrect because Christian baptism was not known then. John's baptism was not Christian baptism. It was a baptism of repentance for the Jewish people.

Nicodemus knew what Jesus meant by "born of water." He knew about John's baptism and that it was a baptism of repentance. It was a requirement by God that a Jewish person would declare God right by submitting to John's baptism because he said, as I said just earlier, that John was sent to prepare the way of Messiah.

In John Chapter 1, the apostle John sets this theme by saying that John the Baptist said I baptize with water but there is one that is coming after me that baptizes with the Spirit. There you have the two ministries, water and spirit!

As far as water baptism being required for salvation, there is no requirement. The only requirement for salvation is to receive Christ and be baptized by His Spirit.

Now, I am not saying that you should not be water baptized. Christian baptism comes after salvation, not as a requirement for salvation. It is a means of identification. You are making a public testimony that you have died to your old nature, been buried with Christ, and rose with Christ as a new creation in Christ Jesus.

I would have to disagree with what your church told you. If you wish to be baptized and they won't do it, find a church that will.

Actually, Spencer,

If you read all of Acts, you will find that water baptism was the general practice of the apostles when ministering to new believers. This practice continued all through the the apostolic times into the the early church times (past 100 A.D.) and has been the common orthodox practice throughout the centuries. It is only in recent times that people are substituting the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit for water baptism (which I think is a biblically errant substitution) . I am not saying that the enduement of the Holy Spirit is unbiblical, though. It is a wonderful action of the Holy Spirit in the life of believer to empower and equip one for service and exercise of spiritual gifts in the Church family. I think that Jesus wants believers to have both a water baptism (as each apostle/disciple had been done prior to Pentecost) and one of enduement of the Spirit (as on Pentecost), but it is the same Spirit that regenerates someone and gives faith to believe at conversion, indwells the new believer, is present at water baptism to do whatever God has determined to happen from it, and Who is poured out on a believer when one is endued with the Spirit. AS for me, I want to have all that God has for me, not just some. So, that is why I have been water and Spirit baptized, which happened after I was converted.

I just noticed, I'm not sure if you last reply was to me or Brother Jesse.

It bares my name but may have gone to him.

Hi Sister GiGi,

You are correct, and a wonderful explanation on why as a Christian we should receive baptism as instructed by Christ. I agree, that water baptism has been the norm even before, and then during the 1st century church up to and including the present day!

Jesus instructs us to be baptized, and shows us here, how we should be baptized and the manner in which we receive the Holy Spirit:

Matthew 3:16

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Jesus gave us many wonderful examples for us to follow, and Christ followers will follow Christ, and no one else!

God Bless.

Hi Gigi.

It seems there is 2 things we are discussing here. For one there is many things that was practiced that isn't essential for salvation. These same arguments were present in apostles day. false practices and false doctrine crept in the Church in their day. Infact, you see it prophesied in the feast offerings with the leaven. It seems you are searching the scripture as an historian to get to this matter, but you mention nothing of Paul not baptizing as an apostle to the gentiles. I've mentioned the transition from Judaism with much explanation in the initial post, we want get into that here.

I'm carefully going over your post and there seems to be a bit confusion. We are not talking about THE POWER OF THE HOLYSPIRIT in which we are gifted for ministry, We are talking about being baptized into Christ death and resurrection which is done by the Holyspirit immediately at conversion. We are identified with him in death, when he died, we died. When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(The church couldn't receive these gifts until after Christ died and rose from the dead) So their baptism into his death had already taken place before receiving the gifts.

So we are not substituting water baptism for baptism by the Holyspirit, we're saying ther is only one baptism as Paul mentions in Ephesians 4:4-6. I believe here Paul is saying there is only one way we are identified with Christ and the father and put into the body of believers. and that can only be done by the Holyspirit.

You seem to be saying the same thing in your reply; however it seems you define or term spirit baptism incorrectly.

Quoting you:

"I want to have all that God has for me, not just some. So, that is why I have been water and Spirit baptized, which happened after I was converted."

How can this happen after you were converted if it takes water baptism to be converted?

I am not saying that water baptism saves. I am saying it is the act of obedience that is to follows belief, as commanded by Jesus. Many on this thread have spoken to this subject repeatedly over the few months I have been on this forum. There have been many good posts made on both sides of this subject.

I do not wish to rehash these conversations once again. I posted because I wish to state support for the ages old practice of new converts being water baptized as is revealed in the book of Acts and attested to by the writers of the early church. I happen to think that they knew better than we do in this day and age what was practiced by the apostles disciples, and elders of the early church age. In Acts 19 Paul di baptize the converts of Apollo in water and then laid hands on them to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit immediately after being water baptized. I am also aware that Paul had stated that he did not come to baptize. This does not mean that he never did or did not instruct new believers to be baptized. It means that the elders present did the baptizing in water, not Paul. he did the preaching. The elders followed up with the new converts.

I do not see it fitting to re hash this topic, because those on neither "side" of the issue are going to change their minds on this. I believe my view is on the side of Scripture and the witness of the church through the centuries that Jesus promised to build. Those who despise this history will have to give an account to the Lord about why they refuse to follow His command and refute His witness in the church through the ages.

For me, I appreciate the opportunity to share ideas on this forum. I accept that people will have differences, and respect others viewpoint. But, also, for me, if someone is adamantly in opposition of doing something that Jesus commanded and the apostles practiced, then I tend to be cautious about receiving what they say on other matters as I believe they are teaching error on this.

Gi Gi you do greatly err.....If God did not send Paul to water baptise , he did not send anybody to water baptise.

Paul tells us water baptism wd make the blood of no effect...Absolutely nothin can be added to what Jesus did at

Calvary As God is no respector of persons...Remember when Uzzah tried to steady the ark he wanted to help God

Gods, anger was so kindled against Uzzah God slew him there next to the Ark. We cannot help God when it cames to

to salvation..Thats what Peter was trying to do in Acts 10 & 11 Peter wanted to help God with water baptism in the purification proccess. The new covenant and Gods anger was kindled against Peter tells him 3 times what i have made clean, do not call common or unclean...Even in the natural when somebody tells ya something 3 times thats a rebuke

Obedience is better then sacrfice .When Jesus said its finish means don't try to add anything to it not water baptism or circumcision nothin period....All the unclean animals in that sheet was the Church that was made Clean by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB NOT WATER BAPTISM, tHAT Peter was commanding. Thats y Paul was so reluctant to water baptise, he feared it wd make the BLOOD of no effect...Jesus himself tells his own disciples that if he did not wash them they wd have no part with him and they

they had ALL been Preveously water baptised . Which speaks volumes of a greater baptism of the Blood of the lamb and a new covenant. It was his blood that initiated that new covenant ...As the book that new covenant was written with his own BLOOD not water....We cannot apply water to the doorposts of our hearts, Only Blood cd be applied to the

Doorpost under the old covenant.....But now under this new covenant only the Blood of the lamb will suffice....Peter was trying to help God just like Uzzah was trying to help God by steading the ARK ...But nothin can be added to what Jesus did at Calvary, ..Its finish. But Peter didn't understand, nothin can be added to Calvary.

Precious friend, Scripture is NOT in "Great Error"

1 Corinthians 1:17

Paul Was NOT Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?:

Today: 'Only ONE' Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION, Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!! ( Ephesians 4:5 ) ( Colossians 2:12 ) ( Galatians 3:27 ) ( Romans 6:3-4 ) ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 )

Just to Be DOUBLY Sure Of God's WORD Of Truth!:

Paul, Inspired Of God, wrote:

"For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach The Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest The Cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 1 Corinthians 1:17

God's 'Simple' Will: Link

ChrisE Good Stuff, it Is Written.

Grace.

Part 2 of 2.

THE COMMAND.

For starters there is more to the words command in the Greek that I am not adequate to explain.

What is actually being commanded?

What are Jesus commands spoken of in Matthew 28:20.?

Are these commands to be water baptized? let's take a look.

Matthew 28:19-20.

19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

For starters the command is to observe all things whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. Who's being commanded?

Who's the you? The command went to the disciples. It wasn't a command to the recipient of the message.

Where is the command to the recipient to be baptized with water?

If baptism by water was an act of obedience to a command, where is it?

I do see where the lord commanded the disciples to love one another as he has loved them.

John 13:34-35.

34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

It does seem like verse 35 would be useful in their commission.

God bless.

Amen Grace.

Part 1.

I would like to continue this subject a little further because it is all important because of it is a salvation issue at hand.

There is one baptism: Meaning there is only one way we are identified with Christ and put into the body of believers.

"Baptized" shows up in several places in the New Testament, John gives us perhaps the first view of baptism, (baptism of repentance) and he gives the baptism of Christ authority. "Baptism of the Holyspirit"

I think when people see the word baptize, they're thinking it is speaking of water baptism and that is not always the case!

EXAMPLES:

Acts 19:2-5.

2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

NOTICE VERSES 4 AND 5!

Now we know by way of verse 4 they were baptized with water, "John's baptism"

Verse 5 seems to be another baptism! Was it water? I don't think so, Paul said he baptized no one but Crispus and Gaius and Stephanas household.

Now look at verse 2 and we discover what is expected to initiate the Holy Ghost. "Believe!

The HG didn't come on them until verse 6.

6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied.

Now put it into perspective.

Mark 16:16. He that "believeth" and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What initiates their salvation? Belief! and this is baptism of the Holy spirit spoken here triggered by belief not water.

The same applies here and several other places.

Mathew 28:19.

Part 2

What is actually commanded.

Spencer, again, Paul baptized these believers in water and then laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. I know we disagree on this, but it plainly speaks of two happenings here, baptizing them and then laying on of hands.

GiGi.

I'm sorry if this bothers you but these posts is not directed at you. If so the original reply would have been sent to you.

This has been a debated topic long before you and I joined the site. Let's share our views and not try to use "Authority" . And no It doesn't say they we're baptized in water by Paul. It does say. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

WHEN THEY HEARD THIS, THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.

This comes up often and was debated a couple of weeks ago, I didn't have time to engage but said I would when time permits. The topic come up again so here I am. Please respect that

God bless.

My view on John 3:5.

Here's another highly used verse when

when there's a debate is water baptism required for salvation.

I'll share 3 views briefly and go over the one I held but recently heard brother Jesse view on this verse. And it resonates!!

Here's one that is in error that is commonly used by these who say you have to be baptized by water to be saved.

"The water mentioned in this verse is water baptism."

The interpretation brother Jesse gave earlier in this tread, I want go over that one. I'll leave it for some to research.

The other is the water mentioned in the verse is the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Amen and

God bless.

Spencer

God bless you, too.

Perhaps you could read Matthew Henry's commentary on Acts 19

I am not meaning to be disrespectful

Can you tell me how I was disrespectful?

I also do not think I am any more "authorative" than anyone else on here who has firm views, as you do.

I am still learning about this community, but it sounds to me from your post that since I am newer I have less privilege in posting my viewpoint than others.

I am not trying to be contrary here. I can tell you may be a bit bothered. We disagree on this subject. I'm good with that. We both can post our viewpoints and respond to posts as we see fit.

Unless there is something in the terms of agreement that say otherwise, such as I can only respond to a post directed to me?

Even so, I leave this conversation on peace,

Goodmorning Gigi.

I've returned to answer a few questions you asked me.

You asked: how I was disrespectful?

Well, the original post was 2 days ago, and you never responded to the lady's posting, "April" that's why I said these posts are not directed at you. If so, the original reply would have been sent to you. I was expanding on at topic that come up often that I didn't have time to engage in but said I would when time permits.

You posted addressed to me before I ever responded to the post, I gave an "Amen to Brother Jesse post and to Grace post, with the focus on water baptism isn't required for salvation. That was the narrative!

You quoted "I am not saying that water baptism saves. I am saying it is the act of obedience" whether water baptism is out of obedience or for salvation is 2 different narratives and this post was dealing with the salvation issue. Your focus seemed to be on me as I second and supported others in the tread.

And no, you don't have less privilege in posting your viewpoint on the subject because you are new to the site, but your viewpoint should have been addressed to April that way we would have stuck to the narrative, "Does water baptism saves" you said you doesn't believe it does, but you colleagues believe otherwise.

You stated.

Now quoting:

I am not trying to be contrary here. I can tell you may be a bit bothered. We disagree on this subject. I'm good with that. We both can post our viewpoints and respond to posts as we see fit. Well, you have been given that respect, give it to others. Adress your viewpoint to the post not to the responders or to someone saying "Amen" especially if we agree on the narrative. "Is water baptism for salvation". Dispensation and transitional period were just embodied in the discussion and wasn't to take precedence over the narrative.

I hope this explains

GOD BLESS.

Spencer, Thank you for explaining. As I said, I am still learning how to use this site.

That's ok, Gigi,

You should have heard me when I first came on the site 2020 Christmas eve.

I assumed I would be needed as help to fend off false doctrine, I was ambitious and ready to go. I'm sure some remember.

And to top it off once I heard Brother Chris and a few others I was like GREAT TEACHINGS!! And then out of excitement I made the unforgettable comment!! I said- Quoting " I thought this site needed me to help protect it from false doctrine but they have great teachers here!! I don't think that went well. Lol. Then I get into a debate about the marks of a Christian nation and the fruitfulness of our nation, I believe that rub some people wrong and some held that against me till this day.

I've decided to be more of a supporter to those who teach what I believe to be the truth. I struggled and still do as do you, But atleast we're not passive.

God bless.

Spencer, Thank you for your reply. I do not know anyone's history on here, so thanks for sharing. I kind of got here by "accident". I have not, however, come on tis comment section thinking I am going to set anyone aright. We are all just sharing our ideas here. Some of us can do so rigorously, others with a soft touch, others more timidly. There is room for everyone. In fact, I thought when I came on here I would hear far more "orthodoxy" than error. So, coming upon things that seemed false teachings to me took me by surprise. I had to pray about whether even to stay on this site, let alone try to articulate what I know to be "orthodox" teachings of the church. Not everything that I disagree with is false teaching or error. There are plenty of topics that allow for differences of viewpoints. This is called "heterodoxy".

So, I appreciate your story. We are not alike in the way you explained as far as my motivations. But we each have things to learn and ways to grow. A site like this is helpful towards these things. I am well aware that I may say things that upset people, just as people say things that unsettle my spirit, as well. I don't intend to be controversial. But I am not afraid to speak a view that may not be commonly held by others on this site. So, like you said, people may get angry with me. I just let them own that unless they can point out where something I have said is unkind or otherwise sinful. Then I will repent and apologize. That is why I ask for clarification, so I can go before the Lord and see if I have wronged anyone with what I have said. If so, I am to own that.

For, me, like others, God has brought us here together to wrestle with viewpoints so that His truth will prevail. And so, I think each of our viewpoints is important to contribute. That is why I post, because I think my viewpoint may be helpful to someone.

Many of us certainly are not passive. But we are wanting to hold out the word of truth to those who need it. God Bless.

GiGi

Thank you ,

God bless.

S. Spencer You made a great statement concerning Gods Word its not just believing God but also what we

believe about God can determine our walk and behaviour spiritually. It's like what and where you have fear

you cannot have spiritual faith and where you have spiritual faith in your walk you will not have fear.

First words out of Adams mouth after downfall he heard Gods voice in the garden and he was

afraid, first words that angels gave to shepherds in the fields fear not for unto this day is born a saviour.

Amen!

Thanks Brother Rick.

If we come across anything that adds to the finish work of Christ we have to revisit the viewpoint. By the means of the law we failed miserably!! Paul said in Romans 7:14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The issue is the incurable heart!!

With this heart the nature is disobedience,

Therefore obedience is internal expressed outwardly!!

S. Spencer A statement I heard a long time ago describing someone walking by the spirit, it is the external

manifestation of the inward reality of the exercised power of holy spirit. Thought that was pretty good.

Amen Brother.

It reminds ma of Matthew 23:26.

Alex N. Why don't we stick with 1 Corinthians 1:9-17 and the preaching of Christ and the one body the Wisdom

of God. Gods Word is the glue that keeps us together.

Sorry spencer, you are assuming a lot of things about me and my thinking on this matter. Like I said in the last post. I don't wish to re-hash, so I am bowing out of this conversation. If anyone wants to know more of what I have said, then they can go back a few weeks to see what was spoken about this topic then. I think I am very consistent in my thinking.

Then again, I do not find any scriptural support for your assertion that the church was in a transitional period and that somehow baptism in water ceased to be the norm for new converts. That is far from the truth as evidenced by historical documents kept by the early church and the practice throughout history. I also think that it is erroneous to put up such a view of Paul's commission to not baptize, but preach the gospel as being the normative for the apostles, disciples, and elders who served the church and the only acceptable practice among the churches. He was an evangelist, not an elder, bishop or overseer. One plants, another waters, and the Lord gives the increase.

GiGi in that case apparently show should have bypass this one because This topic was whether water baptism was required for salvation or not. NOTHING ELSE!!

It expressed using the term correctly.

I agree that the apostles new exactly what the Lord had them to do, But sorry I believe you are gravely in error of what that was. And Paul said Jesus ( Sent him not to baptize) But to preach the Gospel!!

1 Corinthians 1:17. You have to be consistent in your view. You expresses Matthew 28:19. BUT PAUL SAYS HE SENT HIM NOT TO BAPTIZE. And the scripture doesn't say anyone baptized for him..

If Paul would have been the Apostles to the Jews he would have been commissioned to baptize as well.

He would have been involved in this transition.

But this was not a commandment defined the way the commandment is defined in the ten commandments. To command as mentioned in Matthew is the act of Power.



Anything you add to the finish work of Christ is a heresy.

Again we NEVER was discussing an act of obedience, Circumcision was commandment but Circumcision didn't save lives. It's a cutting away of the flesh. Another action pointing to the finish work on the cross, as well as water baptism. Many in the first century church believed water baptism was to was away the leprosy of sin.

The Lord didn't come to clean us up.

Baptism is where the old man dies and is born again!! not a spiritual bath.

From what I have seen many of those who hold this view don't stop there, They believe you can loose your salvation,

Salvation is by works not grace! You don't know your saved until you are Judged ect..

There seems to be an absence of Christ supplied faith if you don't Know.

John says we can Know by the love we have one for another.

We are given strength to obey God's word by the Spirit AFTER we have been saved.

and that's not to remain saved, It's because we are saved.

And we shouldn't be partial.

We should obey Paul pastoral epistles as well. Don't you think?

S. Spencer Brother I agree because the definition of Grace is Divine [UNMERITED FAVOR] God to man.

Before law Noah found GRACE or favour in the eyes of God. God favoured Abraham Isaac Jacob before the law

then to give his adopted children Israel direction in print he gave the Law all over 400 of them and then still needed

sacrifice for breaking fellowship or sinning and it was displayed via the senses a sacrifice. Now we have the eternal

sacrifice given Jesus Christ and the eternal unmerited gift given when believed holy spirit and forgiveness when we

verbally confess our broken fellowship and of course mean it.

Amen Rick.

Goodmorning and happy New year.

You must live on the west coast.

I keep missing you by 3 hours.

God bless.

S. Spencer Actually South East but its all good and by Gods Grace I made it another Year by man's time standard.

I view as one day at a time to give them a slice of heaven lovingly on a silver platter. We say that we are God's and

God is ours deeds are proof of this and not just words and these are the proving hours.

S. Spencer I'm with you on this because under Paul's ministry to the gentiles and in the church epistles water

baptism is not specified but baptism is stated and when you work the word baptise which can mean a pouring over

with water dipped in water or complete and internal cleansing spiritual. In Acts 9:17+18 when Paul was called out

the word baptised is internal and water is never mentioned. This action was given at the end of the law under John

the baptist ministry to prepare Israels hearts for the messiah before pentecost the spiritual birthday of the church. That

being said I have not apposed to it but getting the Job done Requires Romans 10:9+10 in the age of Grace according

to Paul's epistles.

requires Romans 10:9+10

Ty . Well said GiGi.