Reading those articles one would wonder if those Pastoring in the 19th century perhaps should have been exempt or held back from military duties and remain overseeing the Church similar to the way the Lord dealt with Israel.
Numbers 1:45-50.
Tho the Church may not be directly instructed aa tho Israel but there are subtle principles in scriptures such as
2 Timothy 2:4. that may suggest. perhaps exemptions for Pasrors.
I believe there's virtue to Gods order and structure in the way he do things therefore there's consequences when we deviates from it.
It's interesting in 1 Timothy 2:13. Paul mentions "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." You would say ok well that settles it. but then he goes on with verse 14. "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." He seems to give more reason. Could this be a picture of her influence and our partiality when it comes to women? If Adam wasn't deceived why take of the fruit? We have to ask ourselves didn't Adam know better and what would we have done. There may be more to this than just
hierarchy, ( not saying he didn't set up hierarchy) there may be reasons besides that. just as it's a reason man can't pastor a church without the Holyspirit.
I'm just fishing but if this is even close, then our partial and passiveness towards women would be as big as the issue as an seductive woman if she's in error.
Perhaps if anyone else could have been around to offer Adam that fruit just maybe he wouldn't have taken it.
I believe as in the Gospels woman has an equal role in the church, but Gods order ordained should never be broken.
Indeed brother S. Spencer: keep on fishing - your thoughts are very good & not wasted - certainly thought-provoking.
Along with 1 Timothy 2:13, we have 1 Corinthians 11:3. That specific order of creation was to be observed both in our daily lives in the world & especially in the daily life of the Church. And for the greater part it was, but for a variety of reasons, that order became distorted then dismantled, so in the name of 'equality & fairness to all', that order & our roles (in family, society & Church) have taken on a different perspective. No doubt, with some husbands not fulfilling their God-given responsibilities of godly leadership and of sacrificial love & care to their wives & children, this too has contributed to the woman's desire to be un-submitting to him & to take over his responsibilities. Sin is very much evident in the breakdown of society & we are being conditioned to accept what is abnormal to be normal in the God-ordained family & also in Church order & responsibility.
Your thoughtful statement: "Perhaps if anyone else could have been around to offer Adam that fruit just maybe he wouldn't have taken it." True, maybe he wouldn't have, or, would the convincing justifiable reasons given to Adam by the offeror of the fruit or whether to choose to obey the Giver of the Command not to eat, still apply? How interestingly our minds work, using all our reasoning powers to fulfil a lust, rather than refusing anything that God has forbidden. The Word that should have been at the forefront of Adam's mind is, "God has spoken & I will obey", and not, 'Adam has determined & God will surely understand'. And isn't that the very same way we manage to justify our sins & failings before God today? That Adam wasn't deceived, cannot justify the fact that he too succumbed to temptation & disobedience; he still had to be removed from God's Presence, as Eve was. And still God still wanted the order of creation to be maintained in the family, society & His Church.
Dear Kimberlee Hise on 2 Corinthians 9 and all the others here on site. It is a great responsibility to lead or stand as the head of a church. Here are some tasks. In Peace:
Economy.
Speech gifts.
All the Spiritual gifts.
Prepare in case of death.
Stand in the purgatory.
Responsibility for the prayer meetings.
Responsibilities regarding people in need as by:
Divorce, abuse.
Infant baptism.
Wedding.
Organize meetings.
Organize ongoing cases. and so on. And mm.
(It would be good and hear what Billy Graham has to say in that way).
For all these tasks, one must be TWO at the very least. This is not about learning or publishing lessons. This is about organization.
That is, give out tasks to those present, the one who does this is a Good Leader.
We have a statement: BEHIND ANY SUCCESSFUL MAN IS A STRONG WOMAN:
And none of them is more important than the other!
And in the Leader's delegation of tasks, everyone who is upbeat in the scripture comes in. Be it tasks like praying for the sick. Words of Wisdom by the Spirit and so on. Everyone here knows about the services one has in a church. All Can not the leader wear! How long would the hand then endure. It's just fantasy and talking about leadership roles in the church. Reality all friends it is he who counts. So let us submit to one another in Love to at least complete Jesus last Wish for the church. That we should love each other.
I believe that refers to Pastoring the Church. " Where men and women gather in a group setting".
I don't think this is necessarily the church building, If the building was destroyed the church still exists in the gathering of the people. In 1 Corinthians it mentions Churches. "Plural" perhaps meaning, where ever they gather.
1 Corinthians 14:33-36. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all "CHURCHES" of the saints.
Let your women keep silence in the "CHURCHES": for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
That doesn't say they don't minister or teach other women.
Titus 2:3-4. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of good things;
That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
I don't think it's because they can't teach.
When you look at 1 Corinthians 14:1-40.
It seems it's to keep things orderly is the context. And then It may have more to do with Genesis 3:16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; "AND THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND," and he shall rule over thee.
If you are talking about a woman pastoring a church, I would say that a woman is not to fulfil the role of a pastor ( 1 Timothy 2:12-14). A woman does not meet the biblical qualifications of that role, neither can she serve in that capacity where she would be in a position of authority over the man in the church.
1 Timothy 3:2 gives the qualifications of an overseer, or bishop. This would also apply to a pastor as he is an overseer in the church. But it says that an overseer/bishop (Pastor) must be the husband of one wife and be able to properly manage his own household before he can run a church. The husband of one wife as a qualification would rule out a woman being a pastor. Disclaimer: (If you live in California where I do, this would be debatable).
But the biblical teaching and qualifications of who and what a pastor should be would rule out women pastors. I know this is probably going to cause some strife with some but I have to stick with what I understand the scripture to say on the matter unless I'm persuaded otherwise.
I agree. The text you quoted excludes women from these positions.
There is another Scripture that says that women should keep their households, caring for their husbands and children.
I am not sure of the verse location.
But women abandoned that sacred position in the home many decades ago with the push of "women's liberation" and "equality" along with the lure of a second income to raise the standard of living.
Look what it has brought us to,
Now, due to adjustments in the cost of living, it is increasingly difficult for a young couple to live on one income.
We have created our own problems by departing from Scripture on this and going by the wisdom of the world.
And like you said, I'll probably get some to push back on me on this, but I believe we are always better off going with The instructions of Scripture in both the short and long run.
Off the top of my head, I believe the scripture you are referring to is in the book of Titus but don't quote me on that one. I'd have to look it up. As far as equality, I think scripture would support God seeing both men and women as equal in His eyes, just not when it comes to function and the role of each in the church. But yes, this is one of those hotly debated topics that will get us put in the hot seat no matter what view we present. However, sticking with scripture is the best indeed!
My dear sister in Christ Jesus, thanks for all you contribute to this forum. God Bless!!!
Jesse, I appreciate your well thought out sincere posts as well. So many people contribute good words to ponder and hold up to the word to see if the view is supported by Scrpture or not.
We have an obligation to do that as well as an obligation to speak sound biblical doctrine to others.
We may have many words in our minds, some may be of questionable scriptural merit, but we should not post those thoughts, but only those that we believe honor the truth of God's word. We all can err and have make mistakes in inerpretation, but there is a whole body of writing online from devout Christian thinkers over the centuries who have spent their lives searching, studying, and teaching scriptures and the doctrines of the church that we can read and find out more about a view and help us form a mindset that aligns with revealed truth.
Some on here do not value the contributions of these forefathers, thinking each person can decide for themselves how to interpret Scripture. We are all fallible, and I do not think that anyone on their own can correctly interpret scripture and doctrinal views solitarily without the input of others. I think it is foolish to believe that, that is why I research and have done so all my life.
I have had to change my thinking on some things over the years. We can stay flexible enough to let the Spirit mold our mind to conform with truth.
I deeply appreciate what I read on this site. I am blessed everyone I read on it.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. You've said some things that truly ministered to me. What stands out the most is "We all can err and make mistakes in interpretation." It takes an honest believer to admit that, and I say amen to that. There's something I said here a long while back. I said it's not what I say that is truth, it's not what you say (Not you personally, but anyone), it's not what anyone of us says that is truth. It's God's word (Logos) alone that is truth.
And yes, we are fallible beings. It doesn't mean were stupid, but we are incapable of knowing the mind of God. I do value the things everyone here has to share. I don't have to agree with it all, but I do value it. We're all to be as the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if the things we are being told are true.
But then again, what is truth? Is truth just a bunch of words written in the pages of a book we call the Bible? Many would say "Yes, God's word is the truth" (And it is), but then we turn around in our fallible human minds we think we understand but do we really? I think a lot of it has to do with human pride. I would be the first to raise my hand and say "Guilty."
Once again, what is truth? Here's what truth is to me, but first, here's what truth is not. It's not what I say, period! To me, truth is a person, and that person is Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, I am the TRUTH, and I am the LIFE."
So, do you or I or anyone else here have the truth? We do if we have Christ. He is the only truth a believer has. It's not head knowledge and it's not the words written in a book, but Christ Himself. If there were no Bibles, we would still have Christ, and He's all the truth we need!
I am one to think that Christ has redeemed us, not just in our spirit, but our souls, mind, will, emotions, body-all of us entirely. So, we use all of our being in apprehending Jesus, our Truth.
I have always loved the way that the apostle Paul did not just lost a set of truths for us to believe, rather, he explained the What He received from Jesus. He called it " the faith passed down".
So, we know Jesus, the Ultimate Truth. But we are also charged by Paul to know this "faith" which are the tenets taught by the apostles in the churches planted by them.
It was important to the apostles that believers had agreement of doctrine across the churches. They knew that correct doctrine will help to uphold and unite the faith believers had in Jesus and that teaching of false doctrine was spiritually damaging and dangerous.
So, I hear you on determining that Jesus is our Truth, but we are also to be wise about whom He is , what He did, said , and taught as well as how He continues to be Present and at work in the church through the centuries.
As Paul said,
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
So all of these are important, in my opinion.
That is why we discuss so many matters of Christian doctrine on this site. If we did not think it was important to understand these things we would just be saying,
Jesus lived, died, rose from the dead, and those who believe this and trust Him will receive the salvation He offers.
We don't believe in Hum and immediately go to heaven. We remain in this life and it matters how we live and what we believe about doctrines for the good of our souls and the church
OUCH !!! There were ,.. an still are , many great women,.. that teach , an have taught the word of God ,.. an they are most certainly, able an do a fine job,.. it is written, an he uses all his sons & daughters
I fully agree with you. There are many great women who are far more capable of teaching and in my opinion (for whatever it's worth) can do a much better job than some of the men teachers. I don't think any of us can argue that women would not be able to do a fine job. But the question I have to ask is does God's word allow for a woman to pastor a church?
In 1 Timothy Chapter 2 beginning at Verse 11, Paul is giving Timothy instruction concerning church function. I see nothing there to suggest that he gives the okay for a woman to fulfil the role of a pastor. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 seem to stand out for me.
We're talking about doctrinal issues in the church. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence. How can that happen if the woman is the one behind the pulpit teaching the men?
It's not talking about women not having the same ability or being better than a man, or a man being better than a woman. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with God's proper order in the church and how the church is supposed to function. God's proper order is God/Christ/Man/Woman, in that order. This has nothing to do with a woman's ability to teach or to say that she is less than the man. I believe many women have a greater teaching ability than some of the men.
But God's word still does not allow the woman to be placed in a position of authority over the man in the church and that's why she's not allowed to pastor a church, even though many women still do!
Please know that I have nothing against women, and nothing against their ability to be great teachers. And like I said, the points you make about women's abilities to do a great job cannot be argued, at least I can't argue with you there. I just don't believe they should pastor a church. Unless I can see some concrete doctrinal statement that says otherwise, I have to stick with what Paul says about the matter.
Hi fren ,.. thank you for your honesty an understanding of scriptures you have noted , an of course I hold no judgement, nor did I take your response as confrontational, I've seen a lot of your work on this site , an I find that you approach everything with kindness an love , an the maturity to respect that we all have opinions on what we learn.
Well written & explained brother Jesse. There have been several articles written to explain the advent of women occupying the pulpit & I include one that expresses it succinctly: "Women started being pastors as the general movement for emancipation appeared towards the end of the 19th century, and as young women were accepted in universities. Then the need to replace men during both World Wars emphasized it." (From the Virtual Museum of Protestantism).
There were few other women, pre-19th Century, who became ordained ministers/pastors, but with the pressing need to fill leadership/teaching positions in the Church because of men dying or missing on the battlefield, the move towards women leadership became more noticeable & prevalent. Therefore, this is the dilemma the Church now faces: if a need is there, can believers detour from the Word so that the Church doesn't suffer? And then when the opportunity arises to go back to biblical instruction on the matter, does it not then become all the more difficult to do so? I dare say, it would take a strong Church leadership, solidly grounded in the Word, to withstand inroads of any kind that would deviate from the received Truth; indeed, expressing strong faith in God to provide & fill every need in His Church in His Time.
Thank you so much for sharing that quote from the Virtual Museum of Protestantism. I have not heard of them before but would like to check them out. I'm sure they might have other articles of great interest. It does explain a lot on why women were being ordained as pastors. But as you mention, should we as the church ever deviate from the word for the benefit of the church? I think not! It seems to me that every time man does what he thinks is right for the church, we as a church begin to suffer. Things might work from our point of view, but if the Lord's not doing it, we get ourselves into quite the mess.
I truly believe that there are women who would do a much better job of fulfilling a pastoral role in the church than some of the men. But again, do we deviate from the word in order to make the church a "better" place? We've got to be careful on how we are building because if the Lord is not in it, our efforts are in vain, no matter what we think is best. How did the early church function? That should be our model, and yet we have moved so far away from it, maybe not intentional, but we've gotten ourselves into a mess!
May the Lord continue to bless you with knowledge and understanding of His word, for it is only through His provision that we can move forward in growth. God Bless!!!
And none of this catches God by surprise,
Every mishap was considered and prophesied either in word or by types ,
Thanks and God bless.
Reading those articles one would wonder if those Pastoring in the 19th century perhaps should have been exempt or held back from military duties and remain overseeing the Church similar to the way the Lord dealt with Israel.
Numbers 1:45-50.
Tho the Church may not be directly instructed aa tho Israel but there are subtle principles in scriptures such as
2 Timothy 2:4. that may suggest. perhaps exemptions for Pasrors.
I believe there's virtue to Gods order and structure in the way he do things therefore there's consequences when we deviates from it.
It's interesting in 1 Timothy 2:13. Paul mentions "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." You would say ok well that settles it. but then he goes on with verse 14. "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." He seems to give more reason. Could this be a picture of her influence and our partiality when it comes to women? If Adam wasn't deceived why take of the fruit? We have to ask ourselves didn't Adam know better and what would we have done. There may be more to this than just
hierarchy, ( not saying he didn't set up hierarchy) there may be reasons besides that. just as it's a reason man can't pastor a church without the Holyspirit.
I'm just fishing but if this is even close, then our partial and passiveness towards women would be as big as the issue as an seductive woman if she's in error.
Perhaps if anyone else could have been around to offer Adam that fruit just maybe he wouldn't have taken it.
I believe as in the Gospels woman has an equal role in the church, but Gods order ordained should never be broken.
God bless.
Along with 1 Timothy 2:13, we have 1 Corinthians 11:3. That specific order of creation was to be observed both in our daily lives in the world & especially in the daily life of the Church. And for the greater part it was, but for a variety of reasons, that order became distorted then dismantled, so in the name of 'equality & fairness to all', that order & our roles (in family, society & Church) have taken on a different perspective. No doubt, with some husbands not fulfilling their God-given responsibilities of godly leadership and of sacrificial love & care to their wives & children, this too has contributed to the woman's desire to be un-submitting to him & to take over his responsibilities. Sin is very much evident in the breakdown of society & we are being conditioned to accept what is abnormal to be normal in the God-ordained family & also in Church order & responsibility.
Your thoughtful statement: "Perhaps if anyone else could have been around to offer Adam that fruit just maybe he wouldn't have taken it." True, maybe he wouldn't have, or, would the convincing justifiable reasons given to Adam by the offeror of the fruit or whether to choose to obey the Giver of the Command not to eat, still apply? How interestingly our minds work, using all our reasoning powers to fulfil a lust, rather than refusing anything that God has forbidden. The Word that should have been at the forefront of Adam's mind is, "God has spoken & I will obey", and not, 'Adam has determined & God will surely understand'. And isn't that the very same way we manage to justify our sins & failings before God today? That Adam wasn't deceived, cannot justify the fact that he too succumbed to temptation & disobedience; he still had to be removed from God's Presence, as Eve was. And still God still wanted the order of creation to be maintained in the family, society & His Church.
Economy.
Speech gifts.
All the Spiritual gifts.
Prepare in case of death.
Stand in the purgatory.
Responsibility for the prayer meetings.
Responsibilities regarding people in need as by:
Divorce, abuse.
Infant baptism.
Wedding.
Organize meetings.
Organize ongoing cases. and so on. And mm.
(It would be good and hear what Billy Graham has to say in that way).
For all these tasks, one must be TWO at the very least. This is not about learning or publishing lessons. This is about organization.
That is, give out tasks to those present, the one who does this is a Good Leader.
We have a statement: BEHIND ANY SUCCESSFUL MAN IS A STRONG WOMAN:
And none of them is more important than the other!
And in the Leader's delegation of tasks, everyone who is upbeat in the scripture comes in. Be it tasks like praying for the sick. Words of Wisdom by the Spirit and so on. Everyone here knows about the services one has in a church. All Can not the leader wear! How long would the hand then endure. It's just fantasy and talking about leadership roles in the church. Reality all friends it is he who counts. So let us submit to one another in Love to at least complete Jesus last Wish for the church. That we should love each other.
I believe you are referring to this verse.
1 Timothy 2:11-14.
I believe that refers to Pastoring the Church. " Where men and women gather in a group setting".
I don't think this is necessarily the church building, If the building was destroyed the church still exists in the gathering of the people. In 1 Corinthians it mentions Churches. "Plural" perhaps meaning, where ever they gather.
1 Corinthians 14:33-36. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all "CHURCHES" of the saints.
Let your women keep silence in the "CHURCHES": for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
That doesn't say they don't minister or teach other women.
Titus 2:3-4. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of good things;
That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
I don't think it's because they can't teach.
When you look at 1 Corinthians 14:1-40.
It seems it's to keep things orderly is the context. And then It may have more to do with Genesis 3:16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; "AND THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND," and he shall rule over thee.
Some say this is to rule over.
My assertion is speculative.
God bless.
be a helpmeet or walk with her man so they both would operate to there full potential. If it would be done
according to Gods standards Ephesians 5:21-31 then everything works to Gods glory. That being said I
see great women of God that took a stand or ministered in a temple which is different then a Gift Ministry.
So Gods best standard is whats stated in the Timothy epistles for ordination not saying a women can't
teach or instruct the gospel message but that's different than ordination.
If you are talking about a woman pastoring a church, I would say that a woman is not to fulfil the role of a pastor ( 1 Timothy 2:12-14). A woman does not meet the biblical qualifications of that role, neither can she serve in that capacity where she would be in a position of authority over the man in the church.
1 Timothy 3:2 gives the qualifications of an overseer, or bishop. This would also apply to a pastor as he is an overseer in the church. But it says that an overseer/bishop (Pastor) must be the husband of one wife and be able to properly manage his own household before he can run a church. The husband of one wife as a qualification would rule out a woman being a pastor. Disclaimer: (If you live in California where I do, this would be debatable).
But the biblical teaching and qualifications of who and what a pastor should be would rule out women pastors. I know this is probably going to cause some strife with some but I have to stick with what I understand the scripture to say on the matter unless I'm persuaded otherwise.
Hopefully I have not offended you or anyone else!
I agree. The text you quoted excludes women from these positions.
There is another Scripture that says that women should keep their households, caring for their husbands and children.
I am not sure of the verse location.
But women abandoned that sacred position in the home many decades ago with the push of "women's liberation" and "equality" along with the lure of a second income to raise the standard of living.
Look what it has brought us to,
Now, due to adjustments in the cost of living, it is increasingly difficult for a young couple to live on one income.
We have created our own problems by departing from Scripture on this and going by the wisdom of the world.
And like you said, I'll probably get some to push back on me on this, but I believe we are always better off going with The instructions of Scripture in both the short and long run.
Off the top of my head, I believe the scripture you are referring to is in the book of Titus but don't quote me on that one. I'd have to look it up. As far as equality, I think scripture would support God seeing both men and women as equal in His eyes, just not when it comes to function and the role of each in the church. But yes, this is one of those hotly debated topics that will get us put in the hot seat no matter what view we present. However, sticking with scripture is the best indeed!
My dear sister in Christ Jesus, thanks for all you contribute to this forum. God Bless!!!
We have an obligation to do that as well as an obligation to speak sound biblical doctrine to others.
We may have many words in our minds, some may be of questionable scriptural merit, but we should not post those thoughts, but only those that we believe honor the truth of God's word. We all can err and have make mistakes in inerpretation, but there is a whole body of writing online from devout Christian thinkers over the centuries who have spent their lives searching, studying, and teaching scriptures and the doctrines of the church that we can read and find out more about a view and help us form a mindset that aligns with revealed truth.
Some on here do not value the contributions of these forefathers, thinking each person can decide for themselves how to interpret Scripture. We are all fallible, and I do not think that anyone on their own can correctly interpret scripture and doctrinal views solitarily without the input of others. I think it is foolish to believe that, that is why I research and have done so all my life.
I have had to change my thinking on some things over the years. We can stay flexible enough to let the Spirit mold our mind to conform with truth.
I deeply appreciate what I read on this site. I am blessed everyone I read on it.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. You've said some things that truly ministered to me. What stands out the most is "We all can err and make mistakes in interpretation." It takes an honest believer to admit that, and I say amen to that. There's something I said here a long while back. I said it's not what I say that is truth, it's not what you say (Not you personally, but anyone), it's not what anyone of us says that is truth. It's God's word (Logos) alone that is truth.
And yes, we are fallible beings. It doesn't mean were stupid, but we are incapable of knowing the mind of God. I do value the things everyone here has to share. I don't have to agree with it all, but I do value it. We're all to be as the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if the things we are being told are true.
But then again, what is truth? Is truth just a bunch of words written in the pages of a book we call the Bible? Many would say "Yes, God's word is the truth" (And it is), but then we turn around in our fallible human minds we think we understand but do we really? I think a lot of it has to do with human pride. I would be the first to raise my hand and say "Guilty."
Once again, what is truth? Here's what truth is to me, but first, here's what truth is not. It's not what I say, period! To me, truth is a person, and that person is Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, I am the TRUTH, and I am the LIFE."
So, do you or I or anyone else here have the truth? We do if we have Christ. He is the only truth a believer has. It's not head knowledge and it's not the words written in a book, but Christ Himself. If there were no Bibles, we would still have Christ, and He's all the truth we need!
Well said.
I am one to think that Christ has redeemed us, not just in our spirit, but our souls, mind, will, emotions, body-all of us entirely. So, we use all of our being in apprehending Jesus, our Truth.
I have always loved the way that the apostle Paul did not just lost a set of truths for us to believe, rather, he explained the What He received from Jesus. He called it " the faith passed down".
So, we know Jesus, the Ultimate Truth. But we are also charged by Paul to know this "faith" which are the tenets taught by the apostles in the churches planted by them.
It was important to the apostles that believers had agreement of doctrine across the churches. They knew that correct doctrine will help to uphold and unite the faith believers had in Jesus and that teaching of false doctrine was spiritually damaging and dangerous.
So, I hear you on determining that Jesus is our Truth, but we are also to be wise about whom He is , what He did, said , and taught as well as how He continues to be Present and at work in the church through the centuries.
As Paul said,
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
So all of these are important, in my opinion.
That is why we discuss so many matters of Christian doctrine on this site. If we did not think it was important to understand these things we would just be saying,
Jesus lived, died, rose from the dead, and those who believe this and trust Him will receive the salvation He offers.
We don't believe in Hum and immediately go to heaven. We remain in this life and it matters how we live and what we believe about doctrines for the good of our souls and the church
Peace
I fully agree with you. There are many great women who are far more capable of teaching and in my opinion (for whatever it's worth) can do a much better job than some of the men teachers. I don't think any of us can argue that women would not be able to do a fine job. But the question I have to ask is does God's word allow for a woman to pastor a church?
In 1 Timothy Chapter 2 beginning at Verse 11, Paul is giving Timothy instruction concerning church function. I see nothing there to suggest that he gives the okay for a woman to fulfil the role of a pastor. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 seem to stand out for me.
We're talking about doctrinal issues in the church. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence. How can that happen if the woman is the one behind the pulpit teaching the men?
It's not talking about women not having the same ability or being better than a man, or a man being better than a woman. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with God's proper order in the church and how the church is supposed to function. God's proper order is God/Christ/Man/Woman, in that order. This has nothing to do with a woman's ability to teach or to say that she is less than the man. I believe many women have a greater teaching ability than some of the men.
But God's word still does not allow the woman to be placed in a position of authority over the man in the church and that's why she's not allowed to pastor a church, even though many women still do!
Please know that I have nothing against women, and nothing against their ability to be great teachers. And like I said, the points you make about women's abilities to do a great job cannot be argued, at least I can't argue with you there. I just don't believe they should pastor a church. Unless I can see some concrete doctrinal statement that says otherwise, I have to stick with what Paul says about the matter.
Peace
You are much too kind my brother. God Bless you!
There were few other women, pre-19th Century, who became ordained ministers/pastors, but with the pressing need to fill leadership/teaching positions in the Church because of men dying or missing on the battlefield, the move towards women leadership became more noticeable & prevalent. Therefore, this is the dilemma the Church now faces: if a need is there, can believers detour from the Word so that the Church doesn't suffer? And then when the opportunity arises to go back to biblical instruction on the matter, does it not then become all the more difficult to do so? I dare say, it would take a strong Church leadership, solidly grounded in the Word, to withstand inroads of any kind that would deviate from the received Truth; indeed, expressing strong faith in God to provide & fill every need in His Church in His Time.
Thank you so much for sharing that quote from the Virtual Museum of Protestantism. I have not heard of them before but would like to check them out. I'm sure they might have other articles of great interest. It does explain a lot on why women were being ordained as pastors. But as you mention, should we as the church ever deviate from the word for the benefit of the church? I think not! It seems to me that every time man does what he thinks is right for the church, we as a church begin to suffer. Things might work from our point of view, but if the Lord's not doing it, we get ourselves into quite the mess.
I truly believe that there are women who would do a much better job of fulfilling a pastoral role in the church than some of the men. But again, do we deviate from the word in order to make the church a "better" place? We've got to be careful on how we are building because if the Lord is not in it, our efforts are in vain, no matter what we think is best. How did the early church function? That should be our model, and yet we have moved so far away from it, maybe not intentional, but we've gotten ourselves into a mess!
May the Lord continue to bless you with knowledge and understanding of His word, for it is only through His provision that we can move forward in growth. God Bless!!!
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