Bible Discussion Thread

I love everyone of you....But once ya understand the ENORMITY OF CALVARY....THE Lamb of God, Gods new BLOOD COVENANT.....You will neva again mention water baptism for the REMISSION of sins....Even in the O.T. they had to apply Blood to the DOORPOST not water..But Now under this new Blood Covenant we have to apply his BLOOD TO THE doorpost of our hearts....It was John the bap. that gave us water baptism But John preached BEHOLD THE LAMB OF God that taketh away the sins of the world.....Ya gotta realize Christ Jesus was THE LAMB OF GODS, GODS NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD.

And his blood is applied by hearing his voice the LIVING WORD...the H.G....Thats y he is saying you are made CLEAN by the Word i have spoken unto you....The thief on the Cross was baptised when he heard Jesus's voice his WORDS etc...NOT WATER BAPTISM which was good b/f the CROSS,...But after the Cross its the BLOOD OF THE LAMB...AND WE DARE NOT TOUCH IT..Its NOT our personal hygiene that defiles US ,ITS OUR HEARTS...Jesus said its the things that come from the heart that defiles a man...We cannot add anything to his NEW BLOOD COVENANT....Lest we make the blood of no effect as Says our Bro, Paul.....There is a baby Christ involved in this NEW covenant...Which is the H.G. the Child of PROMISE....A NEW INNERMAN....A KINGDOM CHILD....unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....No such Child under water baptism the old covenant.....Simply b/c H.G. baptism was the GREAT PROMISE BAPTISM that new covenant....A multiplication Covenant when God swore by his very self that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven...Thus the need for the sower and his precious seed to be sown in our hearts that initiates a birth of Christ in US..Thus the King is gonna be born with N US....His multiplication via his seed etc...Smite the Sheppard and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the little ones,...The BABES AND SUCKLINGS...The H.G. THE STARS OF HEAVEN.

Jim From Luke 3:22 where it says like this word is [hosei for as if] a dove appearance interestingly the same useage

is used in Rev:1:14 his hair was white like [as if] wool appearance. Interestingly both objects are white which is

represents purity.

Dear Jesse in peace you tease the words. God bless u in Jesus Christ.

Alex,

When you say that John gave us water baptism, who is the "us" you are referring to? I am asking because my understanding is that John's baptism was not Christian baptism. John's baptism was for the Jewish/Hebrew people, not for Gentiles, and not for Christians as there were no Christians at that time. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the Jewish people to show that they repented, turned away from Judaism, and were identifying with Jesus as their Messiah.

So the only question I have is who you are referring to as "us." I appreciate your time.

Jesse my understanding is water baptism went back to Moses when God commanded him if a house had a leprosy or a scall a levitical priest wd have to fetch 2 tutle doves and wash them by RUNING water,..And 1 of the Doves had to be a sacrificial Dove...And had to killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird...The Jordan was running water and Jesus was our sacrificial Dove thats y the Dove lit on Jesus marking him as our sacrficial Dove....Turtle Doves are lovers just like Christ and the Church are lovers....husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it...Jesus was our sacrficial Dove....in Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the CHURCH but they refers to each other as having Doves Eyes..When they asked John about Christ and his disciples John replied he that has the bride is the bridegoom....John the baptise gave us this water baptism metaphor....We see Christ and the Church in this water baptism scenario....Thats y Jesus had to be water baptised....he had to be washed by this running water....But Jesus had no sin. It was a Jewish ritual that went back to Moses....John was of the tribe of levi thus he cd do this washing..baptism....But it was not for sin.....We are all in the house of Simon the leper...thus we need to be made clean..By his words ...That new covenant.

Alex,

You are talking about ceremonial washing spoken of in Leviticus. These were not what John was doing. There was no command in the Law for people to be baptized for repentance.

John was introducing something altogether new that had been revealed to Him by God for that specific time.

We do not know all that God revealed to Him as he was a prophet because it wasn't recorded. The peoplecoming to him to be baptized were not following any OT ceremonial law. They new John was ushering something new and recognized God's hand in it.

I continue to be amaze at people posting on this site speaking as though they know the minds and hearts of John and the apostles, passing judgment disparaging them.

We don't know what God did in their minds and hearts, but He was not ineffective nor impotent. Humility is in order when speaking about these godly men chosen by God for the most important work in all of history. We serve an awesome God.

Gi Gi ....You are not understanding the 2 turtle Doves are symbolic of lovers.....Christ and the Church....I'M talking bout in the spritual realm...Husbands love your wives as Christ love the Church and GAVE HIS LIFE FOR IT...Jesus was our sacrificial Dove...and he had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird....the Church....Then the living bird was set FREE in an open field...Whom the SON sets free is Free indeed...This was the offering for leprosy and sin 2 tutle Doves b/f a lamb cd be offered up ......Thats y the Dove descened on Jesus marking him as our Sacrificial Dove....In Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the Church and they refer to each other as having Doves Eyes....Jesus was in the house of Simon the leper when Mary broke the alabaster Box....We are Jesus's house but we have a leprosy spritully speaking....Thats y he is saying you are made CLEAN by the word i have spoken unto you..After the house was made Clean they wd have to offer up a sweet smell to God....Mary's alabaster box ..Simon and MARY were the Lepers that was made Clean .We are ALL in the house of Simon THE LEPER b/c of sin our Spritual leprosy...In Song of Solomon 1 While the KING sits at his table my Spicknard sends forth a sweet Smell...Jesus was sitting in the house of Simon the leper when this was fulfilled.....This is y Jesus was water Baptised ...He is our sacrficial Dove that had to be washed by running Water..The Jordan was running water...And John was of the tribe of LEVI....HE DID THE WASHING ( THE BAPTISM )....All the disciples answer the living bird that was made Clean by his Blood and set free The Church .... Leviticus 13

Alex

Once again you weave together various texts with commentary to promote a narrative that is far from the intent of the Scripture you refer to.

To me, I just cannot receive such convoluted "editing" of Scripture.

But as to your mention of the dice as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism,

I really don't think one can say "why" the Spirit chose this as His representation at this event because the text of Scripture no where connects this aspect of the event to any Scripture before or after the event. I leave the "why" of it to God's counsel , not man's.

Hi GiGi. In my understanding of Luke 3:22 & other Gospels referring to the Holy Spirit's descent, each of them describe that vision "as a dove, or like a dove". I realize that it's popular to depict that event as an actual dove descending upon Jesus after His Baptism, but it would seem hard to believe that God would use an animal to represent Himself (e.g. Exodus 20:4; Romans 1:23). Rather, I believe that what the Gospel writers were describing, was the manner of the Spirit's descent, made visual by God for man to behold, & that descent was in the slow, gliding, maybe fluttering manner as of a dove. So, I don't see a picture of a bird here, rather an object of God's design, coming upon His Son as His witness for man's sake.

I would treat describing the Spirit appearing in that instance as a dove akin to us describing the other persons of the Godhead in picture or statue form. Just my thoughts on that time of Jesus' inauguration into ministry.

Chris

What does the Dove symbolize? It describes the nature of Jesus Christ ministry. A peaceful loving ministry. A ministry of love. The love where he laid down his life for those who look to him for guidance and strength. When he was being put to death he said forgive them for they know not what they do. Luke 23:34

Thanks Jim, that's an interesting perspective. Except that the way I read it, is that it wasn't a dove or even a shape of dove that came upon Jesus, but the manner of the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Him.

Hi Chris

You said that it wasn't even in the shape of a dove but Luke 3:22 says that it was in the shape of a dove. Like I said before it was done that way to indicate the type of ministry Jesus Christ would have.

Jim There's one thing I keep in mind about Gods Word everything He said where when why how and to

whom and the way He said What He said is for a reason. Its the hidden treasures so to speak of the scripture.

Brings to mind Mathew 5:18 every Jot and tittle every smallest mark of hebrew alphabet and every ornamental

mark in hebrew writing will be fulfilled. I looked that up UNBELIEVABLE! It hurt my Head! God Bless!

Thanks Jim for that reference in Luke. It's just that I don't understand "the shape of a dove" to be an exact look-a-like of the bird, but taking on the general form of it & more specifically its manner of descent upon Jesus. In other words, John should NOT have been in a position to observe & exclaim, "Hey lookie there, I see the Holy Spirit coming, taking on the form of a dove - that must make that dove a very special bird created by God". And of course, as I wrote earlier, if the appearance of the 'dove' was perceived to be an animal by anyone, then we would have to ask how does that fit into the other Scriptures that warn us (e.g. Deuteronomy 4:14-19)?

Then of course, we have Acts 2:2,3, with the "cloven tongues as of fire". The similarity is striking to the previous one; again, the understanding of many is that it was actual fire that came upon the apostles who were gathered there, whereas what appeared was the general appearance of fire, maybe even flickering, yet would not cause harm as a fire would. Anyway, I guess we can each have our own perceptions of these, & from so many other biblical accounts, which sometimes adds that extra dimension to our Bible reading & understanding. Thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Hi Chris

You mentioned Deuteronomy 4:14-19. God was reminding the Israelites to not worship God through images. Shortly after

they came out of Egypt and Moses went up the mountain they went back to idol worship. Exodus 32:1-8 They also worshipped the rod with the serpent on it that Moses made. They had to look upon it to be saved. Number 21:8-9 They worshipped it also. They failed to see what it stood for. Hezekiah had to destroy it because they were burning incense to it.

2Kings18:4 God uses images so that we may understand him better but we need to be careful not to go beyond what they represent.

Thanks

Chris That's my understanding, it was specifically for john the baptist both the vision of the dove and the voice from what I've read,and then John announced who he was behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. It says sin because his sacrifice paid for the consequences of the condition we are born in sin when we believe.

Chris,

You are right. The writers described how it appeared to them. But the actual Presence of the Holy Spirit was probably not an actual dove. was responding to Alex's post that seemed to say that the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove.

But, as you said, I think the descent was like a dove. Just as at Pentecost, the tongues of fire were not the Holy Spirit, nor the wind, but are what God used to signal His Presence coming upon each believer in the room.

Thank you GiGi & Rick for those good comments. I offered mine, not in any way to oppose what you wrote, but to state my belief of the nature of God's descent by His Spirit upon His Son. I feel, hopefully wrongly, that some here & certainly in many churches, that the dove emblem might just become an assumed physical nature of the Holy Spirit rather than simply a description of His coming upon Jesus.

Did Jesus even need to have the Spirit come upon Him? Not at all, but given as visible proof to John & I feel, a part of Jesus' Own Words given at His request to be baptised, "it becometh us to fulfil ALL righteousness": not only for the baptism but also the Father's further identification & approval (by the Spirit) of the One He sent ( John 1:33) - that John (and those after him who read these words) may also know this special One, anointed of God, sent by God, & fulfilling all the demands upon Him by His Father.

Thanks, Chris

Your comments were helpful.

Chris It Is Written!

Oops sorry meant dove not dice.

Using my phone and it has small letters

Alex,

thanks for your response. Even though water baptism represents two things, cleansing and identification, I would agree that the water does not wash away sin. I would agree that only the blood of Christ removes sin. Cleansing is different than completely removing sin. That's why the Jews even to this day, they get water baptized. They hold a MIKVEH (Baptism) once a year, every year, right after what they call TESHUVAH. To them, it represents cleansing so that if the Messiah would comes during that year, they would be covered!

Jesus was baptized, not because He had to, but He said it was to fulfill all righteousness. It is the fulfillment of Exodus 29:4. To fulfill all righteousness! It tells us that at 30 years of age, that is the age of the priesthood. According to Numbers 4:30, it was 30 years of age. The priest had to go through a MIKVEH, a baptism. They had to be baptized from head to toe. The washing, or the MIKVEH of the priesthood is in Exodus Chapter 29 Verse 4.

So, from that point on, no one could say that He did not meet the requirements of the law to enter into His priesthood ministry!

Hi Brother Good stuff out Messiah had to fulfill all the law so he could carry out Grace and truth.

Jesse yes amen

Hi

I get what you are saying about ceremonial washing a, but they were different than john's baptism and for the Lord's baptism by John

Jesus was not a Levite,

So he would not have done a MIKVAH ceremony.

His baptism was not for what you said. He was not eligible to serve in the priesthood.

It was not a MIKVAH for Him.

Just want to keep things proper and not put into Scripture that is not there, nor is referenced back to this event by any other Scripture.

Let's just believe that Jesus was water baptized and the whole Godhead was present for it, just as when we are water baptized in the name of the Father, and if the Son , and if the Holy Spirit.

Gigi,

Is this directed at me?

Yes Jesse, I was.

It seems to have been mixed in between some replies.

Sorry, I should have named you on my post.

Good Mornng Jesse,

I was just commented about your reference to MIKVAH

As it seemed to

Me that perhaps you thought that that was what Jesus was doing for His baptism.

That's all.

As to the conversation that continues to come up about baptism, it is obvious that some of us have a firm stance on this topic and present that view unequivocally . That is not ugly to do so, but some may be uncomfortable with people being in disagreement with one another. I get that.

But, that being said, Jesse, I always am glad to read your contribution. Like you, I have been water and Spirit "baptized." But for those who have been water baptized and not had the Spirit come upon them in power, they can be assured that they still are indwelt with the Holy Spirit as He is the One who regenerates us , gives us faith to believe, and comes to live within every new believer. One cannot be a believer without the grace of the Holy Spurit's dork and presence. As people live their life with the Spirit within, they will grow up n Christ and be equipped for every good work whether they have a "Pentecost" type of experience or not. The same Spirit works in each of us according to His will, not ours. God is the authority and power in every believer. I say this to

Encourage everyone to realize God is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hello Gigi,

I hope this wasn't directed toward me because you feel as though I have a wrong or negative opinion about water baptism? I think I have a fairly decent grasp on what the scripture teaches on water baptism, and I can tell you that I've been both Spirit baptized (Born of God's Spirit), and water baptized. I was following along with the thread a couple days ago about water baptism, but I chose to stay out of that one because, although respectful, it seemed to get a little ugly.

It's sort of sad that that happens where someone asks a question about water baptism, or any other of the controversial topics, and right away you can predict what's getting ready to happen.

But anyway, I will take some time today to study a few things out to see where I might have been in error in what I sent to Alex because I am not completely sure what I said that you feel is in error. I do know that Jesus was not a Levite, but John the baptizer was.

As for your last statement, "Let's just believe that Jesus was water baptized and the whole Godhead was present for it, just as when we are water baptized in the name of the Father, and if the Son, and if the Holy Spirit,"

To that I'll just say, "Yes Ma'am, that's what I believe!"

Whoops

Meant to say "Spirt's work" not dork. I hate using the small letters on my phone, but my computer is acting up and sometimes I can't use it for a few hours, Grrrr

Gigi,

I figured that one out when I first read it. It seems to me that it's your computer that's being the dork! I mentioned a couple of Hebrew terms, Teshuva, and Mikveh. From what I've read and learned, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure you are far more superior in your understanding of the Hebrew than myself. I know some Hebrew but not much.

My understanding of Teshuva is that it's the English transliteration of the word for repentance in Hebrew. Every year, even to this day, the Jews celebrate repentance, called Teshuva. They go down to the Sea of Galilee and get baptized showing the repentance of their sins.

It's a ritual that they do every single year. It begins with the baptism. They go 40 days of repentance, and on the 40th day, that day is a day of fasting. And then Teshuva is over.

Mikveh, is the Hebrew word for baptism. If I am speaking to a Jew about baptism, I don't use the word baptism, I would use the word Mikveh. John went down and he was holding a Mikveh during Teshuva.

So, if I follow this through, I come to understand that Matthew Chapter 3 and 4 is all about this time frame because at that time John is baptizing, and all of Israel has come out. And there are different people who are baptizing at different places at the Sea of Galilee. And they heard about John, and they are all now flocking around John's baptism because this is a "very strange guy!"

Here is John talking about the Kingdom of heaven having arrived and he is baptizing the Jews in preparation for the coming of Messiah. And who comes on the scene but Yeshua Himself, and John baptizes Him.

So, there's a very special meaning to John's baptism. When I get to Chapter 4, when Jesus is out in the wilderness for 40 days, this was during Teshuva. And immediately after He was baptized, He goes out into the wilderness for 40 days. He has been fasting for 40 days, but on the 40th day is the day of fasting. But this entire time period is the Teshuva and the Mikveh.

Hi again, Jesse

I have been reading up on Mitvah and tevilah and teshuvah.

Thanks for bringing these terms up.

I will continue reading as my computer allies me to do. It is having issues and it goes out of use in the middle of things and sometimes I cannot get back on it for several

Hours.

Probably will have to get it repaired. So then I'll be out of its use,

I can use my phone but the screen is small and it is hard for me to read.

To refer back to your last post to me, we all have our strengths to bring to this site, and we all have our weaknesses. So we all have good things to contribute and we all are in a place for instruction to take place.

You have helped me today with something new to read about and consider. I am thankful for that today.

Hi Jesse

Thank you for the helpful information

Perhaps this incident was during the time of Teshuva.

I wish it would have said so. Then we would have a clearer idea.

And I do not know Hebrew nor Greek. And if I did I would never consider myself to have superior knowledge over another believer, as it is the Spirit who brings us true knowledge of Truth.

I appreciate those who do have some study of Hebrew and Greek. I find this input helpful. Do thanks!

Jesse Hello Gods Word fits so perfect, we will never catch up its hard enough to stay focused on it some days

anyway good stuff headed to the bema!

Dear Sister GiGi,

Amen, and thanks for your clarification on this issue.

Dear sister in peace u say we are water baptized in the name of the Father, and if the Son , and if the Holy Spirit. What do you mean by "if"?

1 Timothy 2:4 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God bless u in Jesus Name.

Hi Free

I meant to us "of" not "if"

Sorry, my typo

Dear Free,

I read this too, and I do not believe Sister GiGi meant "and if the Holy Spirit" I believe it was meant to read - "and of the Holy Spirit". Sometimes this happens.

God Bless.

:) that is okej. Ty and be blessed.

Precious Jesse, I concur with "what you have seen" about the 'baptismos' washing of Israel for the 'priesthood' - I believe it is "washing hands and feet" in Exodus 30:19-21 my 'study'

about "Prophecy For Israel":

Israel's 'water' for the priesthood = various washings

Part 1 Link

Part 2 Link

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) From "Things That DIFFER!":

Thus, in "The Revelation Of The Mystery," for us, The Body Of Christ, I "see TWO requirements" (NO 'blemish' and 'anointing for power') 'missing' for the 'priesthood,' and Furthermore, Only ONE Baptism, for 'spiritual identification' With The Body Of Christ:

Link

And, a further note, cannot find 'anything' about the 'priesthood' in any of our 'apostle of the Gentiles,' Paul letters in Romans - Philemon, in "The Revelation Of The Mystery." my 'study'

Prophecy vs MYSTERY: Link

Great discussion...